England Number 8 for Six Nations

First topic message reminder :

With James Haskell (who in my opinion would have been a shoe in) out playing in Japan then New Zealand until next summer - England don't have an obvious option to replace Nick Easter at number 8.

Would you keep Nick Easter in at number 8 for England until Haskell gets back from his sabbatical, or would you go with a player like Luke Narraway who has had international experience and could challenge Haskell when he gets back from his travels, all the way through to the next world cup. Would you like to see Phil Dowson finally given a chance, or would you like to see Tom Guest given a go at international rugby when he gets back from his wrist injury. There is also a possibility at looking at playing outstanding youth such as Carl Fearns who at the start of the season has been outstanding for Bath until a minor injury. Dare I say it, some of you may even think England are best to go with Thomas 'the Tank Engine' Waldrom, however I hope that you don't!

What do you think?

majesticimperialman wrote:I would like to see Dowson given a chance in the 6ns, along with Crane,

A back line of Croft, Wood, Crane,
Or Croft, Wood, Dowson.

If MJ stays in charge, i wonder how many new players he would bring into the England set up?

I agree that Dowson could be offered up in this 6N - but he doesnt play 8 regularly for the saints either! Doesnt Roger Wilson primarily play 8 for them?

Yes, Wilson is the normal 8 for Saints. Dowson is now 30 and I'm not sure how he will necessarily move the England game forward, he's been a great club player for a while but his consistentcy is his best trait I'm not convinced he'll step up onto the international scene.

Fair comment Sam. By the way, how old is Waldrom?

I would like to see Easter still in the mix this 6N for experience (he had a bad WC and has looked off pace in the last home game for Quins) I suspect he still hasnt shrugged off that back niggle.

Waldrom is clearly the next in line with the current England set-up.

Narraway has been in the Saxons before, and even at that level I've seen him get smashed back, turned over - and another poster has said, be anonymous (even as captain). I'm sorry, but unless he up's his performances he cant be in contention.

Crane - offers a bit of grunt, reasonable carrier but doesnt appear to have a lot going on upstairs - would love the body of crane and the head of Easter. But, has been long term injured and cant be considered untill he regains the starting spot from Waldrom at tigers.

Young tallent to be considered - Guest (injured-same as Crane), Fearns (I've not see enough of him to decide), York (young- would like time with saxons).

That kind of exhausts the currrent list of potential no.8's

Robshaw, Wood and Croft - all are out and out Flankers, shouldnt be considered for No.8 - otherwise we will see more of the Haskell'esq back of the scrum errors during the 6N.

"Young tallent to be considered - Guest (injured-same as Crane), Fearns (I've not see enough of him to decide), York (young- would like time with saxons)."

Hasnt Alex Gray been getting quite a bit of gametime for Irish...probably worth a shot worth the Saxons

Yes, sorry - forgot Alex Grey. Like Fearns I havent seen much of him! Does he merit international recognition or a Saxons spot over others? Will he be 1st choice when other players return from injury?

Well thats the question. He didnt play against Leicester, but i think he's played quite a bit....work in progress still...Irish fans would probably be a better judge of how he has been...

Fearns looks a player but needs to playing 8 not on the flank where he has been...

Guest, when fit has featured all over for Quins. There was a little while last season when Easter (I think at the request of RFU) was playing 2nd row and Guest was playing no.8. I've seen Guest on both flanks and even featured out on the wing! Although like Croft, he has a reasonable amount of gas for a back row.

Guest has had time in the Saxons, but has missed a lot of game time due to injury - he will have to work hard just to get back in the A's squad - realistically he cant be talked about for the EPS - the same for Crane.

Fair comment Sam. By the way, how old is Waldrom?

28. Not sure I want him in the squad though as he isn't the most reliable player and tends to try quicks taps and audacious pick and goes from scrums in his own 22. Can be a game changer can be a bit of a liability. England don't need that at 8 at the minute.

Young tallent to be considered - Guest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Guest

Now 27. Not sure he counts as young talent but certainly someone who could well be in and around the England squad should his form be good post injury.

I think England are in a jam regarding the no.8 position, I don't think we have the luxury of ruling players out because they don't deserve it, if you follow my meaning.

I mean imagine if a couple of the main candidates get injured Easter/ Waldrom/ Narraway (Don't say it can't happen, I remember the propping crisis a few years ago!) what then?

Then Marra...me and you will be getting the call up...

Aye, we'll show them hows it's done, out of the way you pansies!

A few bottles of dog and noone will mess...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/dec/02/rfu-overseas-players-england-exile

An announcement made a year ago when John Steele was in charge at the RFU.

Does the policy still stand?

I imagine it would still stand...

But wasnt there a claus though that in exceptional circumstances they can get round this .....

There was an exceptional circumstance clause.

I wonder if Haskell had a release clause written into his contract.

Don't see him flying back from New Zealand the week before their season starts to meet up with the England squad. His new employers wouldn't be fond of that idea.

No i dont think exceptional circumstances can be made for someone that far away.

Haskell is lost for some time im afraid.

Time to focus on a new 8....

Haskell will come back and be the England 8 in a couple of years.

Until then I still stand by Waldrom being the answer at 8.

Fearns & Gray are the other realistic propositions currently with the injuries.

Someone mentioned Dowson, thay could be interesting, my 2 favourites for each position as follows:

6. Robshaw/Wood
7. Croft/Armitage
8. Waldrom/Dowson**

**this changes quite regularly between Dowson/Easter/Narraway

Im just not a fan of Waldrom....yeah he drives the ball well....but his all round game is not as good....

Id much rather stick with Easter (who will hopefully be refreshed with quins) and then bring through Fearns / Gray for some gametime on 60 mins etc.

How long is Guest out for?

Watched Easter at the weekend. He is in poor form at the moment and is not playing well enough to be selected for England.

He is having lapses where he gives soft pens away, passes very poorly and misses crucial tackles.

Leave him out until his form at Quins returns. Waldrom is playing much more consistently.

Backrow should be:

6. Robshaw
7, Wood
8. Waldrom

Croft is still hiding on the wing and Haskell has left the building.

I watched the game at the weekend between Quins and Bath. Three players stood out on the pitch for me... Robshaw, Evans and Brown.

I read the sunday times newspaper, and in the article about the Bath/Quins game, it stated that Easter was the player of the match. This lead to me questioning whether the journalist had actually watched the game!? Easter other than one break at end of the first half was anonymous and has looked off the pace for a while now.

Fearns is close to coming back from injury, however if he wants to feature at 8 for Bath he will have to oust Simon Taylor. Whilst if he wants to get in on the flanks he will have to oust Francois Louw, Lewis Moody, Guy Mercer and Ben Skirving. After watching a number of Bath home games this season, there is no doubt that Fearns will be a quality player for England. When he comes back from his minor knee injury, if he features regularly at 8, he is a must for the six nations squad.

Fearns is 21, Easter is 33. Fearns could be world class and around for a very long time, Easter has been no more than reliable, and in my opinion really limits an England side trying to move forward, he represents the old lumbering boring England. It's about time we had an outstanding 8, Fearns could definitely be that player. Whilst when Haskell comes back from his sabbatical, his battle with Fearns for the 8 spot would only lead to improving both players games.

6. T.Wood
7. C.Robshaw
8. C.Fearns (only if he becomes Bath's first choice no.8 when fit)

19. T.Croft

with D.Seymour and L.Narraway in the squad. (Dowson in the squad, if Fearns isn't deemed ready)

- Easter, Waldrom and Fourie nowhere near the squad please.

Fearns is close to coming back from injury, however if he wants to feature at 8 for Bath he will have to oust Simon Taylor

If he can't oust Taylor then he has no chance of ousting Easter. No point selecting players who aren't playing for their clubs. Wood seems to have been temporarily overtaken by Clark in the Stains backrow, that will be an interesting contest to watch.

You can have James Hook, just don't ask him to kick anything except himself

I find it strange that no-one has mentioned Ben Morgan as a future England no 8. I know there will be the usual uproar about him being Welsh but he hasn't ruled out playing for England. If the RFU get their act together and get the management sorted and approach him with the promise that he will be at the heart of the squad for the forseeable future I think we could have one hell of a player on our hands.

A back row of Croft, Wood and Morgan...doesn't sound too shabby.

I thought Ben Morgan had already declared that he wanted to play for Wales.

Ben Morgan is onother like Fearns, and that LI kid people mentioned - I havent seen enough of them to make a judgement.

What kind of No.8 is he? Is he a more lightweight athletic 8 or a more hard yards bruiser 8?

Bigyak wrote:I find it strange that no-one has mentioned Ben Morgan as a future England no 8. I know there will be the usual uproar about him being Welsh but he hasn't ruled out playing for England. If the RFU get their act together and get the management sorted and approach him with the promise that he will be at the heart of the squad for the forseeable future I think we could have one hell of a player on our hands.

A back row of Croft, Wood and Morgan...doesn't sound too shabby.

He isn't Welsh, he is an Englishman playing in Wales who will be Welsh Qualified in January on residency grounds. He hasn't announced that he wants to play for Wales either, he has left his options open. He did however, turn down a Saxons call up, which is leading a lot of people (myself included) to believe that he is going to play for Wales.

I've got a pretty standard response I dig out now when Morgan's name gets raised:

Quite aside from him not plying his trade in the AP, making his selection very unlikely given current guidelines, he's entertaining playing for Wales, so I would question his dedication to the England shirt.

A lot of praise was heaped on Morgan last season, but he hasn't really been tested. He barely featured in their last HC campaign (just the Treviso games) and he still hasn't played against serious opposition like Heaslip, O'Brien or Leamy in the PRO12.

I question how many English supporters suggesting him have actually watched him play a full game and how much they've just jumped onto Welsh hyperbole (that has mostly disappeared now they have Faletau, but was at its height when their only options were an underperforming Jones or mediocre, misbehaving Powell).

I can't claim to have watched all Scarlets' games this season, but they're (in particular the forwards) not doing much of note and Morgan hasn't stood out against pretty average, non-international opposition.

We'd be much better off developing players of a similar age that have been through (& captained) England age grade teams, the impressive Carl Fearns and U16, U18 & U20 6N granslam winning captain Alex Gray.

Whatever happened to Hugo Ellis?

flankertye wrote:Whatever happened to Hugo Ellis?

I don't know an awful lot about him but he plays for the dragons, and rarely gets gametime for them.