Ulster - a force for Evil

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/foreign-policy-a-backwards-step-at-ulster-2926044.html

Ulster, eh? Ruining Irish rugby.

Munster have two NIQ props starting today, and an NIQ centre partnership. Leinster have Richardt Strauss, for whom the clock is ticking down to Irish qualification. NIQ Nacewa has been European player of the year before, hasn’t he? Nominated, certainly. But that’s to be celebrated, not like those hateful Ulster mercenaries.

Not to have a go at either team – rather to point out the sloppy ”journalistic” double standards.

Oh deary me, Ulster have been naughty!

Bottom stair for us, to think about what we've done...

An Irish newspaper taking a swing at an organisation based in Belfast well I never...

I thought the Irish provinces were limited by the IRFU as to how many none Irish players they could have?

Is Ulster's form as bad as made out in the article? I quite liked Ulster in the HEC last year but if they'd lie down and take a kicking at Welford Rd in a couple of weeks time that would be much appreciated.

Theres some sloppy journalism and double standards there but I think the critiscism of the Terblanche signing is fair, if a little excessive.

I would have liked to have seen us put our faith in Gilroy and D'arcy at the back.

To be fair Ulster do seem to take the pish a little.

Muller
Wannenburg
Diack
Pienaar
Afoa
Payne
Daniellii
Terblanche

Thats 8 NIQ players in the team.

Munster have Borlase, Chambers, Howlett, Botha, du Preez, Mafi -
6 NIQ
Leinster have Berquist, Sykes, Van der Merwe, Strauss, White, Nacewa = 6 NIQ

Ulster are over the limit.

Very naugty stag. Terblanche is Paynes short term replacement and Diack is IQ so that is 6, the same as Munster and Leinster.

Diack = IQ

Terblanche = 3 months injury cover for Payne. Both Munster and Leinster have had short-term NIQ cver for injuries in the last couple of years.

So, the same as Leinster and Munster, then.

Which is clearly unacceptable.

I didn't realise Diack was IQ. Carry on.

The only thing that would annoy me is if Terblanche and Danielli start in the same back three keeping out Gilroy or D'arcy. It may well happen against Clermont too.

That being said as i mentioned elsewhere Pienaar is out of the first two Heineken games. I think out season is done for to be honest unless Marshall can somehow find a level of performance consistently.

I would seriously hope that should things go as badly as they seem to be going over the next few weeks we bite the bullet and give Jackson and Marshall (L) specifically big gametime in the Pro 12 run in

Stand if there's two things you can count on its:

a) Terblanche and Danielli will start
b) Marshall will not perform consistantly.

It is what it is, we need to deal with the cards we have been dealt and front up. We played a lot of last season without our best player so we can manage this year without Ruan and Payne.

Oh. I don't know.

I would have thought a bunch of people who came along a few hundred years ago and pushed the native people off their land and repressed them for several hundred years with Laws designed to keep them 2nd class citizens in their own land would have a natural affinity with.......

South Africans

And if it weren't for you NIQ players you would be nowhere near where you are now. Rocky Elsom was supurb for Leinster as have been Contepomi in the past, also the likes of Paul Warwick for Munster. The thing is with the Irish regions is, they do it right. They do not bring over journey men, they bring over proven quality, like Howlett, Nacewa, Mafi. The Welsh regions get the likes of Sam Norton Knight, to be fair for every poor three or four we get, we do get a Tia Tia or a Lau Lala.

I would be critical of Ulster if Danielli and Terblanche start. Im a big fan of SD and i think he has given good service to Ulster but he isnt the best option any more for numerous reasons.

Terblanche has been brought in to steady the ship so to speak. We have Trimble, Spence, D'arcy, Gilroy and Gaston who can all play in the back three and should be above Danielli in the pecking order for me.

Not to rain on your parade Dowlais but do we really get proven quality?

Mafi joined us 5 years ago as a 24 year old who had never played a Super 14 rugby match.

Warwick never played for a top Aussie team. He played for Manly RFC before moving to Connacht and impressed enough to join Munster.

Many of our signings are uncapped or have few caps such as Stan Wright, Trevor Halstead or Isa Nacewa.

I find the likes of Howlett and Elsom are the exception rather than the rule.

Well, you see that the O's have ditched the 'Glacticos' tag, so someone had to pick it up!!

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Oh. I don't know.

I would have thought a bunch of people who came along a few hundred years ago and pushed the native people off their land and repressed them for several hundred years with Laws designed to keep them 2nd class citizens in their own land would have a natural affinity with.......

South Africans

don't think we don't know what the real motivation is behind this criticism. I'm sure if we signed a load of chippy kiwi's, who live to get one over their patronising larger neighbour, that would have went down better.

Hey hows BJ and Strauss getting on down there....

I was wondering this morning about a Matt Williams-esque decision to give up on the season and start blooding all our younger players.

That was a nightmare. So dispiriting.

But hopefully we can give Jackson and Marshall a bit more gametime .


Stag - if signings aren't proven quality, is that not a failing?

red_stag wrote:Not to rain on your parade Dowlais but do we really get proven quality?

Mafi joined us 5 years ago as a 24 year old who had never played a Super 14 rugby match.

Warwick never played for a top Aussie team. He played for Manly RFC before moving to Connacht and impressed enough to join Munster.

Many of our signings are uncapped or have few caps such as Stan Wright, Trevor Halstead or Isa Nacewa.

I find the likes of Howlett and Elsom are the exception rather than the rule.

Stag, I was under the impression that each region in Ireland had to go before the IRFU and justify the NIQ player/players that they want to sighn. The IRFU then check if it is good for the region/country to allow them to go to Ireland instead of developing from within. Now thats what I call doing it right

roddersm wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Oh. I don't know.

I would have thought a bunch of people who came along a few hundred years ago and pushed the native people off their land and repressed them for several hundred years with Laws designed to keep them 2nd class citizens in their own land would have a natural affinity with.......

South Africans

don't think we don't know what the real motivation is behind this criticism. I'm sure if we signed a load of chippy kiwi's, who live to get one over their patronising larger neighbour, that would have went down better.

Hey hows BJ and Strauss getting on down there....

I'm glad you accepted that one in the humorous way it was intended Rodders. Nice to laugh at eachother/ourselves.

Strauss is getting on phenomenally thanks. Also Hank the tank at loose head. Not sure about Sykes yet though.

Of all the Saffers in the provinces the one that has gotten closest to the Irish team is Wilkinson in Connacht. I suspect that may change next November though.

It means they are scared.

A load of cheap shots from jourlistists that can't be bothered to do research.

A sports writer should Know better,

Ulster have 6 NIQ players same as Leinster and Munster,

The IRFU have allowed a 7th on a 3 month deal as cover, same as they allowed Leinster and Munster in the past,

Anyone saying about Diack or D'arcy, being in the squad, well they are both IQ, nobody is saying Leinster shouldn't be playing Boss cause he's born in NZ, or Heaslip cos he's born in Isreal, or ROG cos he's American

Kingshu, Heaslip & ROG are very different to a Robbie Diack or Strauss; their parents are Irish they were raised in this country (im the same, born in Belgium to two Irish parents while one was working on behalf of the Irish State, and I only have one passport, an Irish one)

Strauss is a South African waiting to become eligable to play for Ireland and then he'll have to wait another 4 years before he can apply to be a naturalised citizen. VERY different from Jamie or ROG. So like the totally justified accusations that the journo was lazy and illinformed, compare like with like.

Like 2/3rds of the Munster FR that will never be able to tog out for ireland and (injury to some IQ players aside) blocking Irish talent. The player that annoys me most at Ulster is Danielli as I do not think he is eve par with the best IQ option never mind the best option, as is the case with say Howlett in Munster.

What seems to be the real issue with the lazy media is the concentration of Saffers, rather than the actual number. Which isnt something i really understand as surely NIQ is NIQ regardless if they come from one or 6 countries?!?

I sort of agree with some of the sentiment in the Irish Independent, but not on the criticism of the number of NIQ's. If 6 is the limit, by all means fill it (Ha, a free punchy and rhyming strap line there for the IRFU to use!).

Where my concern would be, and this would be the same for my team the Dragons, is why Ulstery feel they need to bring in Terblanche for 3 months. Are there no other wingers in Ulster, or the whole of Ireland for that matter, who could cover for 3 months. This could be a great opportunity for a young winger to step up and perhpas announce himself as one for the future. How are youngsters ever to get the chance if foreign players are parachuted in even for short term cover? I'm not having a go at Ulster per se, a number of clubs have done this, but this is the most recent example of a club/province/region perhaps not showing faith and promoting from within. Are things really that bad in terms of injury that you can't find an Ulster youngster to fill in? Terblanche is no spring chicken either! Not sure he'll be at the peak of his powers for a HC campaign at 36 .

Griff -

we have a load of talented youngsters at Ulster. Unfortunately (and this is a lesson we have learned the hard way in the last few years, believe me), when you put them all in together without any leaders or experienced heads, all they learn is how to accept defeat graciously.

When we played the Ospreys, as a result of one or two injuries, we had to play Jackson at ten (19 years old), Marshall at twelve (20), Spence at thirteen (21), Gilroy at fourteen (20) and an out-of-position inside centre at the other wing (Whitten, who is 24 or 25). Lots of talent, very little experience. Our main fullback last season was a 25 year old IQ Australian who was playing his first season of professional rugby. To put him with them would be ludicrous. We need a wiser head to organise defence and advise - hence the reason we signed Payne. Whoever Terblanche is be keeping on the bench, they would have been there behind Payne, anyway.

red_stag wrote:To be fair Ulster do seem to take the pish a little.

Muller
Wannenburg
Diack

Pienaar
Afoa
Payne
Daniellii
Terblanche

I know Stag is taking de pish himself, but I would like to clarify for anyone missing the subtle ironic humour that the numbers of NIQ players named for this weekend are;

Munster with 5
Connacht with 4
Ulster with 4
Leinster with 2

That in itself is an interesting stat. 19 Irish qualified players for Ulster in the squad, compared to - I look forward to reading how awful they are in comparison to Connacht, Leinster and Munster in the other variant of the Irish Independents editorials about Ulster. Although this one is quite complimentary to a number of players, mainly because it serves his point. Ulster sign foreign player- young talent not given a chance! Ulster play homegrown players and lose- Ulster in poor form, disgrace!

Anyway, given the actual stats on foreign players playing for Irish provinces this weekend, the difference in coverage of Munster and Ulster is quite interesting.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/red-storm-rising-2926043.html

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/foreign-policy-a-backwards-step-at-ulster-2926044.html

Now, we appreciate that the Independent doesn't sell much this side of the border and the audience is very southern and thats fine.

But the reason, the ONLY REASON, this bothers me is we're trying to build the game in Donegal, we're trying to build the game in Cavan, we're trying to build the game in Monaghan. We're trying to make rugby an inclusive sport for everyone in all nine counties of Ulster. Check out this, a report of one of the first ever games of rugby played in the Donegal Gaeltacht by an Ulster referee;

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/news/9704.php

Now trying to build the game out there is like pushing a boulder up the hill. But it's even harder when you have the boys in the Irish Independent standing at the top rolling it back in your face.

I know Stag is taking de pish himself, but I would like to clarify for anyone missing the subtle ironic humour that the numbers of NIQ players named for this weekend are;

Munster with 5
Connacht with 4
Ulster with 4
Leinster with 2

Got a few injuries have you Notch?

Excellent, excellent post, Notch.

Really, it should be - "Editorial policy a backwards step at Indo" as their demolition job stops talented youth in the non-NI counties of Ulster becoming interested.

Wow. Just read the Munster article. What a fawning love-in.

Is Danny Barnes getting a crack today? Is he feck.

Notch, I just didn't know about Diack being IQ - Im not on a wum. Fair play I was wrong.

As for Payne being injured tough. I don't agree that Ulster should have been allowed to sign another NIQ player.

Terblanche is the only thing I disagree with if Diack is IQ.

Notch wrote:

red_stag wrote:To be fair Ulster do seem to take the pish a little.

Muller
Wannenburg
Diack

Pienaar
Afoa
Payne
Daniellii
Terblanche

I know Stag is taking de pish himself, but I would like to clarify for anyone missing the subtle ironic humour that the numbers of NIQ players named for this weekend are;

Munster with 5
Connacht with 4
Ulster with 4
Leinster with 2

That in itself is an interesting stat. 19 Irish qualified players for Ulster in the squad, compared to - I look forward to reading how awful they are in comparison to Connacht, Leinster and Munster in the other variant of the Irish Independents editorials about Ulster. Although this one is quite complimentary to a number of players, mainly because it serves his point. Ulster sign foreign player- young talent not given a chance! Ulster play homegrown players and lose- Ulster in poor form, disgrace!

Anyway, given the actual stats on foreign players playing for Irish provinces this weekend, the difference in coverage of Munster and Ulster is quite interesting.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/red-storm-rising-2926043.html

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/foreign-policy-a-backwards-step-at-ulster-2926044.html

Now, we appreciate that the Independent doesn't sell much this side of the border and the audience is very southern and thats fine.

But the reason, the ONLY REASON, this bothers me is we're trying to build the game in Donegal, we're trying to build the game in Cavan, we're trying to build the game in Monaghan. We're trying to make rugby an inclusive sport for everyone in all nine counties of Ulster. Check out this, a report of one of the first ever games of rugby played in the Donegal Gaeltacht by an Ulster referee;

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/news/9704.php

Now trying to build the game out there is like pushing a boulder up the hill. But it's even harder when you have the boys in the Irish Independent standing at the top rolling it back in your face.

Nice one Notch!

I'm not to worried really, the Southern media have an anti Ulster bais, in GAA and carrying now into rugby.

When ever an Ulster team is doing well, it's puke football ruining the sport, 'we much prefered the days when you got the two biggest fella's in the county and lumped the ball up to them all day long and hoped they scored' ' that was skillfull football'

I'd say it more comes out of a Dublin media jealously, that whatever the Belfast based jouralists are the ones going a better job.

red_stag wrote:Notch, I just didn't know about Diack being IQ - Im not on a wum. Fair play I was wrong.

As for Payne being injured tough. I don't agree that Ulster should have been allowed to sign another NIQ player.

Terblanche is the only thing I disagree with if Diack is IQ.

I agree, but there really isn't an Irish player in Ulster capable of playing fullback at this level right now apart from D'Arcy and we need more than one. They had the chance to sign Fionn Carr as back three cover but they decided to let him go to Leinster instead. Then our new fullback gets an injury that rules him out for the season. Thats life. We also let go a whopping FOUR Irish qualified players who can play fullback. David McIlwaine, Tommy Seymour, Mark McCrea and Jamie Smith all let go in the summer.

If you wish to criticise the decision to let four Irish back three players leave the club in the close-season, I have to agree with you. Three of them weren't good enough or had gotten stale at Ulster, but we shouldn't have let Seymour go to Glasgow. They each had their chances to nail down a shirt and didn't take it, hence an extended stay in the reserves. All four are talents but they're also impatient and left for first team rugby elsewhere rather than work hard to get back into the team

I'm annoyed at the criticism because as soon as we had a few young players come into the team, they let themselves and the team down. That's an overly harsh turn of phrase of course, but it takes time. Now the coaches haven't hung them out to dry, they've been keen to emphasise that it's a learning process and we need to be patient. But these are 19, 20 year olds learning the game. They're going to make mistakes and we have a double-header against Clermont and Leicester coming up. A lot of guys have just got back from the World Cup and haven't seen their teammates for months, Jared Payne is ruled out for the season through injury, Ruan Pienaar is ruled out for our first two Heineken Cup games. And on top of that we are on the back of the four game losing streak.

Add all of those factors together, and you're telling me we're be better off playing Peter Nelson (18) or Conor Gaston (21) and it's just... nonsense. Nelson was playing Schools rugby last year. Gaston has played only a handful of games above AIL 1B. I don't see how Ireland benefits from Ulster being out of the HC in two weeks time.

Having just read the artical in the independant I think I have just figured out what 'the ghost we cannot mention' does for a living.

I think the headline of that article is the worst part.

The article criticises and praises Ulster. Maybe not in equal measure, but people who are complaining about it are only focusing on the negatives in the article.

Spence, Gilroy et al are mentioned as examples of excellent young talent at Ulster. As is the strength of their academy.

To be honest after reading all the comments on here I thought the article was a complete hatchett job.

It is of course silly to pretend Ulster are the only province worshipping at the NIQ altar, and a balanced article would have made mention of Sykes, Strauss, Nikora, Naoupu, Chambers, Howlett etc etc. But the fact is that article was only really about the ridiculousness of the Terblanche signing (and on that score good points are made, it's not a great signing. Not for NIQ reasons, but for ability and long-in-the-toothedness reasons)

Yet again a lazy headline writer ruins an article that could have led to better discussion.

The main point of the article was this:

All well and good, but the issue is not whether Terblanche is a good bloke off the pitch or can contribute on it, the issue is that the former Springbok winger is 36, was ready to retire, and is of absolutely no use to Irish rugby.

Thirty six is old for a prop, let alone a winger, and Terblanche won the last of his 37 caps eight years ago, while his finest hour -- a four-try debut against Ireland in 1998 -- took place when we were still using punts to buy our first mobile phone.

We have been down this road before -- overseas internationals, clearly past their best, rocking up in Ireland in search of a handy (exchange rate-friendly) boost to their pension funds.

Owen Finegan did it at Leinster, Tom Bowman at Munster and that is before we get into the legion of journeymen foreigners (think Nick Williams or Clint Newland) who have claimed a wage from the provinces while impeding the progress of indigenous talent.

I don't think anyone can argue with that.

What you can argue with is the next paragraph

Munster, Leinster and Connacht are taking encouraging strides in bringing home-grown players through but, while Ulster have a superb academy and plenty of exciting young players, they keep looking abroad.

This is plainly not true. When filling much needed gaps at second row and out-half we signed Sykes and Berquist, Munster have signed Chambers and a certain SA prop.

Connact don't look abroad because they can't afford to, but their fans were happy as all hell that Naoupu came back and that they managed to get Fa'afilli. Not only that but they're not so much bringing homegrown players through, they are signing the likes of McCrea, Anderson and NOC, all of whom were brought through by Ulster. This fact seems to have escaped the author.

But still, many postives in the article to discuss as well as negatives.

The sort of unintelligence I think Ulster have come to expect from the Southern media.

Are Ulster and Saffacens owned by the same people?

Are Ulster and Saffacens owned by the same people?.

Yes, a cadre of evil South African business mogels who are trying to monopolise NH rugby union by taking over one club at a time and filling it with every South African player they can lay their hands on.