Steve Williams loses it big time.

First topic message reminder :

Looks as though Steve Williams still has a big chip on his shoulder about being sacked by Woods.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/golf/article-2057783/Tiger-Woods-ex-caddie-Steve-Williams-racism-storm.html

Mc,
You stubborn scot. Oops, sorry, was that racist against scottish people!!

MustPuttBetter wrote:

Diggers wrote:

MustPuttBetter wrote:Spot on SR and I think that's the point. Williams clearly wanted to make reference to Woods with saying his name and used 'black' a way of desribing and letting every know who he was talking about. What he was calling him was an ars*hole.

Williams is a total man sausage though there's no doubt about that

Yeah, I mean not many people know who Woods are, probably best to highlight his colour just in case anyone was confused. Why didnt he say that 6'1, Floridian, balding, overly muscular cheating ahole ?

Yeah I'm sure he never talks about anyone else and every time he opens his mouth people must asse he is talking about Woods

Had he called him a Floridian would we be on here having this discussion? No. Exactly!!

He didnt use any of the adjectives he could have used though did he, he used one specific one, why ? So far all you have said is that its so people know who he was talking about. I dont know the exact number but there are probably a few billion black people on the planet, doesnt narrow it down that much really does it ?

super_realist wrote:Mbp, what I mean is that if Williams had said: woods is a black golfer, it wouldn't be racist, but if he said woods is a black bumhole then it is racist because the 'black' is designed to compound the insult of being called a bumhole, hence I believe it was with racist intent. Either way I dislike them both.

We don't know that it was intended to compound the insult. It seems to me that wanted to bring up Woods without saying his name.

I don't know why I'm defending Williams. He's a prat. It just riles me that people like Mac will play the racist card whenever anyone mentions the word black. It's ridiculous. 'black' is not an insult and those who consider it so should consider whether they view black people as inferior themselves before labeling others

Diggers wrote:He didnt use any of the adjectives he could have used though did he, he used one specific one, why ? So far all you have said is that its so people know who he was talking about. I dont know the exact number but there are probably a few billion black people on the planet, doesnt narrow it down that much really does it ?

So you don't know who he's talking about then Digs? Otherwise it obviously did narrow it down didn't it

He used one of a bunch terms that could have been used to refer to Woods. Should he have used them all?
You're view that referring to him as Floridian would have been acceptable but as black is unacceptable makes no sense whatsoever

MustPuttBetter wrote:

super_realist wrote:Mbp, what I mean is that if Williams had said: woods is a black golfer, it wouldn't be racist, but if he said woods is a black bumhole then it is racist because the 'black' is designed to compound the insult of being called a bumhole, hence I believe it was with racist intent. Either way I dislike them both.

We don't know that it was intended to compound the insult. It seems to me that wanted to bring up Woods without saying his name.

I don't know why I'm defending Williams. He's a prat. It just riles me that people like Mac will play the racist card whenever anyone mentions the word black. It's ridiculous. 'black' is not an insult and those who consider it so should consider whether they view black people as inferior themselves before labeling others

In this case I think you might find that its quite a lot of people who see this as a straightforward racist remark. The fact that the race card can be overplayed does not mean people dont make racist remarks. When/if Terry called Ferdinand a black c*** do you think he used teh word black just in case Ferdinand had forgotten he was black ?

No1yankee wrote:If im Adam Scott I warn him over future comments.It will be interesting if they meet during the presidents cup and if tiger has a response to these comments.

No1y,

I second your motion. In light of this latest incident, the President Cup captains should be required to have these 2 face off on the last day for singles. It would be almost worthy of pay-per-view status. If this were the world of wrestling, people would be saying that this was a classic set-up routine to promote the main bout. If Adam is going to let Stevie go, he needs to wait until November 21 for the benefit of us train-wreck watchers.

By the same token Digs there are people who don't think this was and just because there are racists in the world doesn't mean every comment mentioning race is racist

The Terry thing is completely different as he was talking to him and therefore didn't need to reference him in any way

Yeah, I thought the Terry thing might be completely different.
Every comment mentioning race doesnt usually contain the word ahole does it, this one does, thats what makes it racist.
There was no need whatsoever for Williams to highlight Woods colour, not one tiny bit, but he did. And the word straight after that was abusive.

I thought listening to this was sad;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/15605113.stm

But it seems it is equally worrying and shameful to read people on this board defending the seemingly indefensible. It was a racist comment, why are people so reluctant to accept this?

Read the quote people - He called his a/hole black not him a black a/hole.
There is a difference.

Diggers wrote:Yeah, I thought the Terry thing might be completely different.

Shouldn't really have brought it up then.
We could all think of vaguely similar examples of every discussion on every thread so we could say 'I thought that might be different'

Diggers wrote:Every comment mentioning race doesnt usually contain the word ahole does it, this one does, thats what makes it racist.
There was no need whatsoever for Williams to highlight Woods colour, not one tiny bit, but he did. And the word straight after that was abusive.

There was no need and it was abusive but not from a race angle. He's implied or said nothing derogatory about Woods' race.
If you believe what you're saying how would have referring to him as Floridian not be considered derogatory to Floridians. There's no logic to this

McLaren wrote:I thought listening to this was sad;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/15605113.stm

But it seems it is equally worrying and shameful to read people on this board defending the seemingly indefensible. It was a racist comment, why are people so reluctant to accept this?

Why are you so unable to accept it might not have been?

You could equally say that Terry only used black so Ferdinand kew Terry meant him, there is literally not one jot of difference according to the logic you are applying here.
As you say saying Ferdinand is black is not in itself abusive, so presumably you think its fine for Terry to have put the two words together.
The two instances are not vaguely similar. They are exactly the same.
Re the Floridian thing why out of all teh available adjectives to describe Woods did he use black ? There are literally hundreds he could have used, why did he use black ? What triggered that in Williams head do you think ?

Maybe because I have a basic understanding of englsih language, history and the culture we live in.

Diggers wrote:You could equally say that Terry only used black so Ferdinand kew Terry meant him, there is literally not one jot of difference according to the logic you are applying here.
As you say saying Ferdinand is black is not in itself abusive, so presumably you think its fine for Terry to have put the two words together.
The two instances are not vaguely similar. They are exactly the same.
Re the Floridian thing why out of all teh available adjectives to describe Woods did he use black ? There are literally hundreds he could have used, why did he use black ? What triggered that in Williams head do you think ?

I don't think they are the same. But hey my views are bizarre

Had he chosen differently and used Floridian as you might have, that would be different would it? Or would Floridians currently be up in arms??

McLaren wrote:Maybe because I have a basic understanding of englsih language, history and the culture we live in.

And your understanding must be correct? That proves it then

Digs re-read the quote do you not see the difference between calling someone a black a/hole and saying they wanted to shove something up his black a/hole? A reckless statement yes, racist, not definitely.

He didnt use Floridian though did he, Nor was he ever going to.
As far as I can see it comes down to this in your view -
You are a black c*** - racist as Ferdinand was there.
He's a black ahole - not racist as Woods wasnt there.
So yeah, sorry but I think your argument is bizarre.

SpacemanSpiff wrote:Digs re-read the quote do you not see the difference between calling someone a black a/hole and saying they wanted to shove something up his black a/hole? A reckless statement yes, racist, not definitely.

The quotes ive seen on most news sites are "I wanted to shove it right up that black ahole". Not his, the reference being black ahole meant Woods.

Well you can read that 2 ways surely.

You could read it two ways, as far as Im concerned both ways of reading it would still be a racist comment and IMO I think its more likely he was implying that Woodds is an ahole.

Avoiding the question?
Had he used Floridian how would that not be derogatory to them? He had to pick some sort of word. Presumably whichever one it was going to be derogatory to that particular group, be it black people, floridians, golfers or gym goers.
What a quandary we have when choosing our words these days huh?

As for the second bit of your comment, I've been out of the playground long enough to be able to ignore someone trying to twist my words to suit their argument

You've come up with nothing to convince me this comment is any more than insulting rather than racist

Im not trying to twist your words MPB, I really want you to explain to me why the two instances are different. Youve said saying someone is black isnt an insult in itself, so Id like to know what the difference is in the two instances. They are just two words being put together.
Re teh Florida thing there is no history of long term racism towards Floridians as far as I know, this is not true of racism towards blacks.
And I didnt avoid the question, I answered it with the golfist reply, many post ago. If two adjectives are put together to create an insult then thats what they are, a combination of insults in the mind of the speaker.

Anyway, Im off out to buy a dishwasher and oven, the joy of it.
MPB, opinions as they say are like aholes, everyone has them Possibly Williams now wishes they didnt.

They are completely different situations.
Terry was aiming an insult directly at Ferdinand and was calling him a 'black c*nt'. Despite your rather odd comment it's was clear who Terry was addressing.
With Williams, it's seems to me that he was in a room where Woods wasn't present let alone directly engaged. He wanted to allude to him and used 'black' as one of a number of words he could have chosen to do so. The insult, once it's subject was identified was to call him an bumhole. That is to say the 'black' bit wasn't part of the insult, unlike Terry

All very rude and unacceptable but I don't necessarily think racist. He may well be a racist but I don't see it in this comment.

Yes you had responded to the golfist point but that was before you implied describing Woods as Floridian would have been acceptable.
I can't see how referring to someone as black is derogatory to black people but referring to them as Floridians is not derogatory to Floridians. That makes no sense

I'm off out in a sec (and have just seen your dishwasher post) so was going to say I withdraw!

That apology was obviously from a lawyer I listened to Steve Williams to know that he does not talk like that.Personally I think he is a very ignorent person.

Is it ok to call Steve Williams a redneck?

Don't think there's any doubt he's been a bit of an a-hole himself but racist ... I think he should get the benefit of the doubt.

Had he been a genuine racist, do you not think Tiger Woods would have sussed this out years ago?

Seems Adam Scott isn't going to sack him. So then, still a chance of game on!

gaelgowfer wrote:Is it ok to call Steve Williams a redneck?

No but that's a derogatory term so is clearly meant in a derogatory manner, whereas the term 'black' isn't. Had Williams used 'n*gger' or something equally as vile then there would be no debate

Notwithstanding my failed attempt at humour, I agree with you. Had "the redneck" wanted to be racist, he would surely have used the word 'n*gger' or even 'kaffir'.

This thing has been blown up out of all proportion. I'm far more offended at Federa's wife's face being described as a "bag of spanners" to name but one offensive description of her.

gaelgowfer wrote:Notwithstanding my failed attempt at humour, I agree with you. Had "the redneck" wanted to be racist, he would surely have used the word 'n*gger' or even 'kaffir'.

This thing has been blown up out of all proportion. I'm far more offended at Federa's wife's face being described as a "bag of spanners" to name but one offensive description of her.

I think that description of federer's wife is accurate.

Hardly the point though, is it?

gaelgowfer wrote:Hardly the point though, is it?

Unless you are federer's wife I'm not sure why you are so offended by the comments on here.

I spent a large part of today at my golf club and of course there was much talk about this incident. I was amazed at how many people were defending Williams. I think that is largely down to peoples' dislike of Tiger though rather than condoning racism

s_r (I think) summed it up perfectly for me on page 1. Using he word "black" as a purely descriptive term is OK - adding it to a different insult is a different matter.

Compare the following three statements/questions

"Who is that black guy over there?"
"Who is that a-hole over there?"
"Who is that black a-hole over there?"

Which of those comments is racist?

Davie wrote:I spent a large part of today at my golf club and of course there was much talk about this incident. I was amazed at how many people were defending Williams. I think that is largely down to peoples' dislike of Tiger though rather than condoning racism

s_r (I think) summed it up perfectly for me on page 1. Using he word "black" as a purely descriptive term is OK - adding it to a different insult is a different matter.

Compare the following three statements/questions

"Who is that black guy over there?"
"Who is that a-hole over there?"
"Who is that black a-hole over there?"

Which of those comments is racist?

Well said Davie my final answer is C

A dangerous topic to discussed on 606 v2 but I'll try anyway.

I don't think Williams is a racist (he worked with Tiger for years) and probably did not intend to make a racist statement (engaged the mouth before the brain), but what he said in today's society is a racist comment. He obviously hates Tiger (from his perspective he may have a case) and he showed his lack of class on that subject for a second time.

If it was Monty and he said "fat", Jimenez and he said "ginger", Bubba Watson and he said "dumn" or Furyk and he said "baldy" then it would not have been reported as it is acceptable to make reference to almost all physical attributes other than the colour of a person's skin (all are wrong but this is where today's society has drawn the line).

Society has thankfully made huge trides with all aspects of discimination (ethnic minorties, women, handicapped, gays etc) and one tool has been zero tolerance. To remove discrimination further we need to continue with zero tolerance but for a single wrong word or phrase there should be room for us to accept an honest appology.

In William's case I'd accept his appology on this occassion but I think Adam Scott should terminate his employment as Williams has an anti-Tiger agenda (not because Tiger is black but because Williams feels he was wronged by Tiger). Adam Scott can't be associated with any anti any other player agenda. He needs his caddie to be there for him and not against another player.

No1yankee wrote:

gaelgowfer wrote:Hardly the point though, is it?

Unless you are federer's wife I'm not sure why you are so offended by the comments on here.

You're not Tiger Woods yet you're offended on behalf of him. What's the difference?

Davie wrote:Compare the following three statements/questions

"Who is that black guy over there?"
"Who is that a-hole over there?"
"Who is that black a-hole over there?"

Which of those comments is racist?

Possibly none for all of the reasons I've mentioned
Depends if the 'black' part is intended to be part of the insult. If so then racist. If not then it's an (ill advised) descriptive word.
I don't think Williams included it as insult

MustPuttBetter wrote:

No1yankee wrote:

gaelgowfer wrote:Hardly the point though, is it?

Unless you are federer's wife I'm not sure why you are so offended by the comments on here.

You're not Tiger Woods yet you're offended on behalf of him. What's the difference?

I am not offended but in my opinion those comments are racist.

No1yankee wrote:

MustPuttBetter wrote:

No1yankee wrote:

gaelgowfer wrote:Hardly the point though, is it?

Unless you are federer's wife I'm not sure why you are so offended by the comments on here.

You're not Tiger Woods yet you're offended on behalf of him. What's the difference?

I am not offended but in my opinion those comments are racist.

And in Gaels opinion possibly the commemts re Mrs Federer are sexist so she said she didn't like them.
You can't have it both ways

Seems my description of Federers wife has offended gael... oh well... Won't lose sleep over that at its my opinion but there was definately no sexist connotations implied when I said it

Back to the race row, I'll admit early on in this thread I too was stating it was an out and out racist comment, having seen the Williams comments on different news websites it's not so clean cut.

Some I've seen report it as "that black ahole".. Which to me is a racist comment because of the way it is said.

Others do state "up his black ahole" now this I would say is a poor choice of words but not racist merely and ill thought out comment.

So unless we can know for a fact what he actually said it's hard to pass judgement.

Either way the guys still a tool. Oh and Gael please don't call him a redneck, that's offensive to rednecks as they clearly have more to offer to humanity than steve williams.

Though next time I find someone that annoys me rather than offer expletives at them I'll just call them a steve.

Maverick wrote:Seems my description of Federers wife has offended gael... oh well... Won't lose sleep over that at its my opinion but there was definately no sexist connotations implied when I said

I know that Mav. Wasn't trying to imply you were sexist and I didn't find it sexist. It just amused me that someone who'd spent all day trying to explain how Williams is a racist is then telling Gael why she shouldn't be offended on behalf of someone else

Maverick wrote:Though next time I find someone that annoys me rather than offer expletives at them I'll just call them a steve.

Ha, like that

MPB, I know you didn't mean anything by it, just thought better set my stall out before Gael gets reoffended by it, happens often!

So who do we award the next Steve award to (could even get a trophy shaped as a man sausage made: The Steve William award for being a complete Man Sausage)

Mac's got to be in for a shout right??

well in my post season ET awards thread I'll have to include a Steve award now. Though Macs a good shout. I think DOAK gets a lifetime achievement award for being a total Steve

"MPB, I know you didn't mean anything by it, just thought better set my stall out before Gael gets reoffended by it, happens often!"

Evidence please ... MaveDick.

by gaelgowfer

Evidence please ... MaveDick.

Have to say I'm reminded of Corporal Jones from Dads Army: They don't like it up'em

gaelgowfer wrote:"MPB, I know you didn't mean anything by it, just thought better set my stall out before Gael gets reoffended by it, happens often!"

Evidence please ... MaveDick.

Anything anyone posts that you disagree with, is taken as a personal afront and you always lower yourself to insult them...

This comment alone proves that (though this is one of your more original insults)

I rest my case

Davie wrote:
Compare the following three statements/questions

"Who is that black guy over there?"
"Who is that a-hole over there?"
"Who is that black a-hole over there?"

Which of those comments is racist?

A and B are not racest. C would depend on the context.
If you were in a room full of people of all skins colours and their were multiple a-holes in the room that would be a way to refer to one specfic a-hole.
It would be racist if it was ment to all black people OR if he assumed a black person was a a-hole without knowing that person first.

The first is not racest because the a-hole comment is based on prior knowledge/evidence, Black in that case is to identify who the person is . The later two contexts are racist because they are based on prejudging that person based on their race.

Still think it was a bloody stupid remark and he has not learnt from his prior mistake when he thought the media wasn't there.

MustPuttBetter wrote:They are completely different situations.
Terry was aiming an insult directly at Ferdinand and was calling him a 'black c*nt'. Despite your rather odd comment it's was clear who Terry was addressing.
With Williams, it's seems to me that he was in a room where Woods wasn't present let alone directly engaged. He wanted to allude to him and used 'black' as one of a number of words he could have chosen to do so. The insult, once it's subject was identified was to call him an bumhole. That is to say the 'black' bit wasn't part of the insult, unlike Terry

IMO I do not think the Terry comment was racist. Terry was asking a question, "Hey, Anton, did you think I called you a black c*nt"? Not nice, but you can hardly be called a racist for repeating something you thought someone else said to you.
The big problem in both cases is the word, black. If the word, white, was transposed into both cases would we be bothering to comment on it?

What's astounding that in this day and age that someone still can't understand what racism is. I guess if you are not born with color, you're handicapped here.

MPB,

Explain this to me. How do you distinguish race? Is is not by the color of his skin? So, why would you mention the color of ones skin if you do not intend it to be part of that insult?

Calling someone fat, stupid, boorish, etc. is never as evil as implying someone is inferior because of his skin.

Clearly, I'm really troubled by your immune system to an obvious racism remark.