Future England 10?

Is Owen Farrell the brightest hope for a long term future England 10?

The list of stuttering "potential" 10's is endless, but I think the trust and time should be given to one of the bright sparks who is also one of the youngest.

i believe Ford will be out future 10. I don't know why (and probably have nothing to back this up with) but i think Farrell will run into anger issues on the pitch, turn into a but of a hot headed player.

If England played to a territory based game plan, I think Farrell would be a contender right now. I'd still like to see more of his running game before that though. (I'll stick in the proviso that I haven't seen as much of him this season, as last) He's a fantastic player, I'd just like to see him threaten the defence a bit more

What a surprise Nathan you pick a player from your own club and use the opportunity to slate an opposition player. Yes I do similar things.

Being a hot headed youngster doesn't necessarily harm international prospects as you should know!

Owen Farrell is currently at the head of the pack with others like Clegg not far behind.

Of course Ford has the potential but until he actually plays for his club on a consistent basis he isn't in the same league.

Well there are a number of young candidates - but as always they are not playing the big matches for their club at Outside Half.

Farrell and Ford have both started a number of matches at 10 this season, but are behind Hodgson and Flood (who of course is ancient) for their clubs right now.

Clegg is behind Nick Evans and Miller is playing FB for Sale.

Freddie Burns may well be at the head of the young guns queue when we have completed the first 4 rounds of the HC.

I'd like to see the experiment of Burns at 10 and Farrell at 12 for the Saxons during the 6N. Farrell's control, defence and boot outside of an attacking maestro like Burns might work really well especially if somebody like Joseph of LI is at 13 who will offer the pace to keep up with them but also the power to take the ball on if needed.

I think if Farrell wants to be the next England 10 he needs to be playing 10 more often as he has no problems defending or dealing with the pressure at AP level. His issues are all based around getting a backline moving.

Farrell must be given a go alongside Simpson at 9.

LondonTiger there is a huge difference in the amount of matches Ford and Farrell have played in the AP!!

Ford:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=88441&includeref=dynamic


Farrell:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/squads.php?player=79207&includeref=dynamic

A threatening backline being described here!

09. Joe Simpson
10. Freddie Burns/ Farrell
11.
12. Owen Farrell
13. Jon Joseph
14.
15.

I am not so sure that Charlie Hogson will be in the sights of England squad come the 6ns to be honest. I think it will be between Flood and Farell, But it wasn't that long ago the likes of Austin Healey was calling for Freddie Burns to be brought in to the England set up.

I do think that Ford, Clegg, will get chances between now and 2015 rwc world cup.

Hodgson will not be anywhere near the England team now - but so long as he is playing 10 for Sarries it is hard for Farrell to make his case.

We really need to see who go well during the first 4 rounds of the HC - and of course the EPS is scheduled to be selected after these (by whoever is in charge).

Should Flood show form in the HC he should be England's starter - unless someone else starts for their team and plays well. Whether Flood is the answer for the next 4 years, who knows, but he probably is for now.

Owen Farrell

The most accomplished and physically developed of the young guns. Has a fiery temper, but this is no bad thing. Very composed goal kicker and a varied kicking game, he's got a good idea of game management and will only get better under Charlie Hodgson's tutoring. Most importantly his defence is very solid, which is integral for international rugby.

George Ford

The most lightweight option, who when featured at the start of the season at 10 for Leicester looked way out of his depth. Too much pressure on the young lad and over hyping may lead to his downfall. I think we need to give him time to develop physically before talking him up, and he won't get much game time at Leicester behind Flood.

Rory Clegg

He is a very talented young player, with a quality passing game and he's an accomplished goal kicker. He is very lucky in the sense he is learning under the tutoring of Nick Evans, but unlucky that Evans won't budge from that starting XV, especially in such glorious form.

Freddie Burns

There is no hiding Burns is the best attacking fly half of the young guns, he has pace and vision and is not afraid to look for gaps himself. His goal kicking is very good and his tactical kicking is coming along. However he is woeful in defence, I'd say probably worse at tackling than Cipriani, and this is an issue he must address.

Tom Heathcote

Heathcote is only 19 and is the least well known of the bunch, however he has been very reliable for Bath since he made his debut, with his flawless goal kicking, big boot and steady game management. Hopefully under the tutoring of Stephen Donald and more game time, he could be a very good fly half.

Other players to watch out for in the future include Rob Miller of Sale, who has been featuring at full back and Tom Catterick at Newcastle.

For me Toby Flood has to play 10. impeccable kicking during the 6 nations and during the world cup did well when he played..

beshocked wrote:What a surprise Nathan you pick a player from your own club and use the opportunity to slate an opposition player. Yes I do similar things.

Being a hot headed youngster doesn't necessarily harm international prospects as you should know!

Owen Farrell is currently at the head of the pack with others like Clegg not far behind.

Of course Ford has the potential but until he actually plays for his club on a consistent basis he isn't in the same league.

My opinion isn't made up by the team i support, yours on the other hand..... You don't seem to be happy with anyone who prefers a player to one that plays at sarries. I certainly wasn't slating him, he's got the potential to be a brilliant player, i just think ford for his age could be an even better player.

robshaw4england wrote:Owen Farrell

The most accomplished and physically developed of the young guns. Has a fiery temper, but this is no bad thing. Very composed goal kicker and a varied kicking game, he's got a good idea of game management and will only get better under Charlie Hodgson's tutoring. Most importantly his defence is very solid, which is integral for international rugby.

George Ford

The most lightweight option, who when featured at the start of the season at 10 for Leicester looked way out of his depth. Too much pressure on the young lad and over hyping may lead to his downfall. I think we need to give him time to develop physically before talking him up, and he won't get much game time at Leicester behind Flood.

Rory Clegg

He is a very talented young player, with a quality passing game and he's an accomplished goal kicker. He is very lucky in the sense he is learning under the tutoring of Nick Evans, but unlucky that Evans won't budge from that starting XV, especially in such glorious form.

Freddie Burns

There is no hiding Burns is the best attacking fly half of the young guns, he has pace and vision and is not afraid to look for gaps himself. His goal kicking is very good and his tactical kicking is coming along. However he is woeful in defence, I'd say probably worse at tackling than Cipriani, and this is an issue he must address.

Tom Heathcote

Heathcote is only 19 and is the least well known of the bunch, however he has been very reliable for Bath since he made his debut, with his flawless goal kicking, big boot and steady game management. Hopefully under the tutoring of Stephen Donald and more game time, he could be a very good fly half.

Other players to watch out for in the future include Rob Miller of Sale, who has been featuring at full back and Tom Catterick at Newcastle.

To be fair to Ford, i wasn't expecting much of him with the players we were fielding at the beginning of the season.

Flood is the best at the moment, but I don't think he is good enough to win a WC, so I hope the younger lads come through strongly.

Ford and Burns would be the players I'd back to develop into top class starting FHs over the coming years (Ford possessing the more all round game and Burns maybe a bit more invention), with Farrell as the controlling FH and centre option in the EPS.

Toby Flood is a very good international fly half, with a great boot and the ability to break the gain line, to truly get the best out of him he needs a world class inside centre next to him, not some lumbering route 1 sausage. Toby plays week in and out at 10 for consistantly one of the best clubs in europe unlike the rest of our contingent who will be getting played all over the back line and getting bit part roles. To be honest the gametime Ryan Lamb is getting at the moment and some of performances he is putting in i wouldn't be surprised to see his name ahead of ford and clegg.

robshaw4england wrote:George Ford

The most lightweight option, who when featured at the start of the season at 10 for Leicester looked way out of his depth. Too much pressure on the young lad and over hyping may lead to his downfall. I think we need to give him time to develop physically before talking him up, and he won't get much game time at Leicester behind Flood.

Really? I thought he looked pretty good. The massive problems for the Tigers at the start were their forwards and defence. The set piece was generally terrible and they leaked tries like nobody's business. I can't remember Ford being bad in defence, if fact I was pretty impressed with his tackling given his size. And they were doing very well in attack, lead by Ford. Perhaps I missed a lot as I didn't see all the games.

You can have James hook with pleasure

I think we should stick with Flood and Hodgson for the Six Nations (maybe even call Wilkinson into the squad, although it's less likely with him playing in France). We can then pick a couple of the less established 10s (Lamb, Farrell, Clegg, Burns or Ford) in the Saxons. We can then take some of these guys to South Africa and test them out in the midweek team.

I don't think we need to completely reinvent ourselves right now. There are some players who should come out of England contention and some players who deserve a shot in the Six Nations squad, but none of the other 10s have done enough to demand England selection at the moment.

The most lightweight option, who when featured at the start of the season at 10 for Leicester looked way out of his depth

I thought he did bl00dy well considering the pressure he was under. One of the youngest players in the league (actually playing for the first team) in the most difficult position behind a pack going backwards. He put his body on the line, kicked from hand pretty well and when given the opportunity created tries (see the Wasps game for how to unpick a rush defence). Even in the Sarries game where he had a Sarries defender all over him every time he touched the ball he still got all his kicks away and managed a searing break (unfortunatley the Sarries defence were quicker on the up take than the Tigers backline ).

Ford won't be ready for international rugby until about the 2013/14 season as long as Staunton is slowly faded out the squad (Tigers fans are praying this will be so). By 2013/14 he will be all of 20 and should have amassed about 50 Tigers appearences and can be brought into the Saxons.

For me the current selection pecking order goes Flood, Hodgson, Wilkinson (dependand on availability), Clegg, Burns/Farrell (dependant on game plan).

Farrell must be given a go alongside Simpson at 9. .

Why? What's the point in combining a 9 that likes to attack and bring the backline up flat with a 10 that likes to stand deep and use his boot to gain field position. England tried that with a half fit Youngs and out of form Wilkinson at the RWC and it was a terrible idea. For the Saxons'

9.Simpson
10.Burns
11.Short
12.Farrell (taking the kicks)
13.Joseph
14.Sharples
15.Homer

On the basis the wing/fbs in the first team will be Ashton, Strettle, Armitage, Foden and Banahan (though I'd happily ditch him for either Short or Sharples).

LondonTiger wrote:Hodgson will not be anywhere near the England team now - but so long as he is playing 10 for Sarries it is hard for Farrell to make his case.

Really?

Given he was the clear number 3 before the world cup and now the number 1/2 is effectivly retired Id be suprissed if hes dumped staright form the squad. Of course that does depend on teh wilkinson situation,Im assuming hes not available/wanted

Floods the clear number one, but those behind Hiodgson have zero experience with the England senior squad, and hardly any with the Saxons even. It would be a big ask to parachute one straight in as a 6 nations bench player when neither Ford or Farrel are regulalry playing 10 for their clubs.
Id wouldnt at all be surpissed to see Flood with Hodgson on the bench for the 6 nations and one youngster bought into the squad possibly getting bench games as the tournament progresses

nathan wrote:

beshocked wrote:What a surprise Nathan you pick a player from your own club and use the opportunity to slate an opposition player. Yes I do similar things.

Being a hot headed youngster doesn't necessarily harm international prospects as you should know!

Owen Farrell is currently at the head of the pack with others like Clegg not far behind.

Of course Ford has the potential but until he actually plays for his club on a consistent basis he isn't in the same league.

My opinion isn't made up by the team i support, yours on the other hand..... You don't seem to be happy with anyone who prefers a player to one that plays at sarries. I certainly wasn't slating him, he's got the potential to be a brilliant player, i just think ford for his age could be an even better player.

No nathan. You don't know me well enough to make that judgement. Making such wild generalisations. What I am against is preferring an 18 year old with virtually no AP experience to an AP winning 20 year old. When Ford has developed he could be better than Farrell but as it stands Farrell is currently the better player.

In the fly half pecking order Ford is behind Flood,Hodgson,Lamb,Clegg,Burns and Farrell in that order. The last four are close though.

I am not even sure Hodgson should be picked. He is a quality club player but he is international class?

You could make a good case for many players above Saracens ones. E.g. Brown,Armitage,Morgan,Foden and Abendanon above Goode, Sharples,Monye,Ojo,Wade,Ashton over Short and Strettle.

The only player from Saracens who should definitely be in the 6 nations squad bar injury is Brad Barritt.

Abendanon over Goode? If the game is sevens then yes but otherwise not on your life.

I think Hodgson should be selected as he is currently playing very well for Sarries and really getting their backline moving. His experience may well be vital as it is a fairly young England squad that is only likely to get younger in key areas and his leadership could be very useful.

Sam I was saying you could make a case. Maybe not a strong one but a case nonetheless.

Please let Hodgson gain some more experience at Saracens before he is turned into a human sacrifice by the inept England management. Hodgson is a very good club player but not sure he cuts it at international level.

Hodgson gain move experience at Sarries? You mean Farrell or are you confident that the Sarries defensive team are going to be able to re-model the tackling capabilities of Hodgson?

I think Flood is fine at the moment....he can kick, can make breaks, gets the backline going (when the forwards actually deliver quick ball).....

There may be more talented players coming through, but until they actually fulfill that potential Flood is there....and what is he...25/26?

Oh and theres another from the Falcons academy conveyor belt on his way through called Joel Hodgson.....still quite small physically...but give him a couple of years....and he could very well be getting touted....

Tongue in cheek. Basically I don't want Hodgson playing for England if the appalling England management stay in charge.

They ruin pretty much every player they get hold of.

Actually I am getting more and more confident we can re-model Hodgson's tackling capabilities! He tackled well on the weekend vs Sale. Made at least one try saving tackle!

beshocked wrote:Sam I was saying you could make a case. Maybe not a strong one but a case nonetheless.

Please let Hodgson gain some more experience at Saracens before he is turned into a human sacrifice by the inept England management. Hodgson is a very good club player but not sure he cuts it at international level.

So who would you have as the second choice then, send Farrel out to be the human sacrifice?

At the minute the only two FHs who are ready to step staright into comeptitive international rugby are Flood and Hodgson. Farrel may have more potential than both, and I beleive should be in the squad, but it would be a big ask to suddenly parachute him into teh team.
Of course injury may force Englands hand. It is possible for guys to come out of nowhere (Tuilagi) but its nice to give them a non comeptitive game frist , England dont have that luxury this year...its startght into teh 6 nations after a short training period.

The only other guys with experience are Lamb, Gergahty and Barkley ... all of whome fit into the same bracket as Hodgson...as CH is an sinsider with teh current squad and is playing a succesful brand of rugby at 10 on a regular basis for his club. He won his Squad place on merit last season ( albeit followed by a slump).
When it comes down to it the choices are difffcult. They could be barve and go with someone like Burns, but Id be suprissed if two of the sqaud fly halves are kids (assuming Flood and Hodgson are fit) There is a lost generation of England fly halves with only Flood having made the cut since Wilkinson. Hes number one, behind him we have good club players with caps and question marks and unproven kids who havent finsihed their education through the system yet and in some cases arent getting regular club gametime at 10 yet.

Again all this with the Wilko wildcard discounted.

Peter seabiscuit wheeler I think it actually matters what the England management looks like.

If it's still MJ and his cronies then....

No not Farrell if they are still in charge.

Flood and JW will do.

I don't support human sacrifices.

Hmm the cronies are the ones that set the rules that exclude Wilko, but yes the Hodgson place probably hinges on his availability ( and he may retire anyway)

If you consider Hodgson a human scarifice to sit on the bench why not Farrel who would be playing out of his regualr position and virtualy no experience with the EPS players?

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

9.Simpson
10.Burns
11.Short
12.Farrell (taking the kicks)
13.Joseph
14.Sharples
15.Homer

On the basis the wing/fbs in the first team will be Ashton, Strettle, Armitage, Foden and Banahan (though I'd happily ditch him for either Short or Sharples).

I see Josephs name bandied around a lot on here but for a guy that has about 4 months experience at 13, what has he done to get straight in there over players like Lowe (yes it's my club bias coming out) or Daly?

And if Farrel's there nailing kicks I can't see why you'd have Homer over Brown (yup), Goode or Morgan.

Joseph has more power and pace than Lowe and he also knows Farrell well from the England under 20s. His form has been good and he should be introduced to the set up. A tad harsh on Lowe I'll admit but he should be in and around the Saxons somewhere with Trinder playing under study to Manu maybe.

Homer has done well so far this season and offers a rather tasty mix of pace and a massive boot. Brown has played in the Saxons plenty of times and I don't see the point in putting him or Morgan in there for two friendlies when youngsters could be brought into the set up and gain valuable experience instead. If it's an end of season Saxons tour then that would be different but for two games vs Italy A and the Irish Wolfhounds then I'd rather get some youngsters playing.

True true, so Joseph played centre in the England age grades then? Is he a centre that can cover wing or a wing that can cover centre?

I think it's more a Manu situation in that he played in several places over the backline and is now settling at OC. Of course Joseph will need to cement his position in LI team if he wants to be eligible for selection, on current performances it shouldn't be a problem.

beshocked wrote:When Ford has developed he could be better than Farrell but as it stands Farrell is currently the better player.

Ford performed noticeably better in the FH role when they were both given opportunities there for England U20s during the 6N & JWC this year.

Ford defintiely needs another year or two before he is considered for the senior side though. It'll be interesting whether he'll be picked for the 5 U20 6N games or the 2 games for the Saxons. Given Tigers will be without Flood, could well be the fewer Saxons option.

I'd have Farrell in the EPS as third choice FH and an extra centre option. Short of an injury he wouldn't make my match day XXIII, but it would be useful to see how he responds to being in the setup. I think he will make a good bench option for England in the coming years, with the ability to tighten up and close out a match.

Joseph was showing really good form last season (top try scorer for a while before his injury) and after a good JWC showing has definitely stepped up this season for LI with more appearances at his favoured centre position.

I'd have him over Banahan as a possible centre/wing bench option for the senior side. He brings something different to the mix from the other options, not lacking in physicality, but he seems to have a touch more invention about his running lines and that ability to glide, which makes him a good game changer to bring on. I really rate Trinder & Lowe (probably favouring Trinder), but although not the same, I see them as more similar to Tuilagi and unfortunately for them competing for his role.

I'd have Farrell in the EPS as third choice FH and an extra centre option. Short of an injury he wouldn't make my match day XXIII, but it would be useful to see how he responds to being in the setup

Surely if there is no intention to use him in the main setup it would be best to continue his advancement with a couple of Saxons friendlies and then allow him to stay at Sarries where he will play 10 as Hodgson will be away on international duty. If he's in and around the squad he will have very limited preperation before the Sarries weekend game (as he would be released on the Thursday) making it unlikely he would start at 10 and meaning he'd get less game time for Sarries and none at international level. Surely that's counter productive.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I'd have Farrell in the EPS as third choice FH and an extra centre option. Short of an injury he wouldn't make my match day XXIII, but it would be useful to see how he responds to being in the setup

Surely if there is no intention to use him in the main setup it would be best to continue his advancement with a couple of Saxons friendlies and then allow him to stay at Sarries where he will play 10 as Hodgson will be away on international duty. If he's in and around the squad he will have very limited preperation before the Sarries weekend game (as he would be released on the Thursday) making it unlikely he would start at 10 and meaning he'd get less game time for Sarries and none at international level. Surely that's counter productive.

The logic from the rest of my post was that Ford would be playing at FH for the Saxons and Hodgson wouldn't make my EPS at all so would still be starting for Saracens. Under those circumstances I think England would learn more about him by having him training in the EPS than not training for but still playing in the 2 premiership games that clash with England match days.

Who is your back up 10 if Farrell is third choice and Hodgson not called up at all? Presuming Flood in your first choice.

The guys not selected in the team are often released back to their clubs for the weekend anyway so he'd still get to play.

Yes but are only released on the Thursday so will have missed the weeks preperation and in a role such as fly half that's a week of not studying the oppositions defensive patterns, adapting your backs moves and arranging the kicking tactics. Means he would probabley end up at centre.

It does have an effect, Chuter was released and came back to Tigers in time to provide some ropey performances during the 6N.

"Farrell must be given a go alongside Simpson at 9.

What's the point in combining a 9 that likes to attack and bring the backline up flat with a 10 that likes to stand deep and use his boot to gain field position."

I'm thinking about the next RWC not the next game. Flood will be there in the 6Ns but I'd like to see the pace and composure of Simpson and Farrell to allow them to develop for the next RWC.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Who is your back up 10 if Farrell is third choice and Hodgson not called up at all? Presuming Flood in your first choice.

Yes, Flood would be my first choice, with Burns (or Clegg depending on injury/form) as 2nd. I've always rated Hodgson, but Flood is a guaranteed start and I'd rather see any 10min opportunties at the end of games going to developing future prospects than playing a 31yo that won't be first choice or around next WC.

Surely if he is still playing to his current standard and consistency ....Lamb MUST be considered for a spot....he has been creative and his tactical game has been excellent....

I've seen Lamb play a fair number of games this season and he's still not consistent enough for a shot at the national shirt. Still a few too many silly errors and perilous floated passes. I don't see him ever being a better player than Flood and he's not safe enough a pair of hands as a back up, plus he's got a pretty average kick success rate.

I don't think he'd be able to make a convincing step up to international level and I'd have serious doubts about his ability to meet its physicality (same height as George Ford and only a fraction heavier, 5'9" & 13st, but he's not going to get any bigger or bulk up much more at his age).

The HC will tell us if he's come on from his previous incarnations, but I think the reasons he has never been a real success at his previous clubs are still there and I'd have a very twitchy ring seeing him run out in the national shirt.

"and I'd have a very twitchy ring seeing him run out in the national shirt"



Class comment

formerly known as Sam wrote:For the Saxons'

9.Simpson
10.Burns
11.Short
12.Farrell (taking the kicks)
13.Joseph
14.Sharples
15.Homer

On the basis the wing/fbs in the first team will be Ashton, Strettle, Armitage, Foden and Banahan (though I'd happily ditch him for either Short or Sharples).

I like that, although I might have Homer kicking. Other young wingers to consider, depending on form are Yarde, Wade, Smith, Stegmann and May. Miller at FB would also be worth a look if he keeps playing as he is.

There are a reasonable number of young FHs around - I suspect that Burns may emerge as the best of them, but we'll see.

beshocked wrote:

nathan wrote:

beshocked wrote:What a surprise Nathan you pick a player from your own club and use the opportunity to slate an opposition player. Yes I do similar things.

Being a hot headed youngster doesn't necessarily harm international prospects as you should know!

Owen Farrell is currently at the head of the pack with others like Clegg not far behind.

Of course Ford has the potential but until he actually plays for his club on a consistent basis he isn't in the same league.

My opinion isn't made up by the team i support, yours on the other hand..... You don't seem to be happy with anyone who prefers a player to one that plays at sarries. I certainly wasn't slating him, he's got the potential to be a brilliant player, i just think ford for his age could be an even better player.

No nathan. You don't know me well enough to make that judgement. Making such wild generalisations. What I am against is preferring an 18 year old with virtually no AP experience to an AP winning 20 year old. When Ford has developed he could be better than Farrell but as it stands Farrell is currently the better player.

In the fly half pecking order Ford is behind Flood,Hodgson,Lamb,Clegg,Burns and Farrell in that order. The last four are close though.

I am not even sure Hodgson should be picked. He is a quality club player but he is international class?

You could make a good case for many players above Saracens ones. E.g. Brown,Armitage,Morgan,Foden and Abendanon above Goode, Sharples,Monye,Ojo,Wade,Ashton over Short and Strettle.

The only player from Saracens who should definitely be in the 6 nations squad bar injury is Brad Barritt.

and yet you think you know me well enough to make that exact same judgement. So to sum up.. you think that at this moment in time Farrell is the better player, which i completely agree with, but that's not what this thread is asking. it's asking for the future number 10.

I completely agree RE Barritt, still think he should of gone to the world cup.

Nathan it's too early to say with so many young players in the mix.

IMO Ford will only really be ready in 2 years. He's only 18. Plenty of time for him to develop.

The other young pretenders are much further down the line.

Any one of Burns,Clegg or Farrell could or should be picked for the 6 nations squad.

I think the generally concensus is that we'll have to see who is still in the mix in January and February.