Future England 10?

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Is Owen Farrell the brightest hope for a long term future England 10?

The list of stuttering "potential" 10's is endless, but I think the trust and time should be given to one of the bright sparks who is also one of the youngest.

Burns looks like the best attacking prospect, but still ahs some defence issues and makes mistakes.

Farrel looks like a class controling fly half and is rock solid in defence, but hasn't had a chance to show his attacking game.

So it's either or really, do we want to work on Burns defence or farrels attack? From an international perspective Farrel would be easier to bring in straight away.

Yappysnap how's Clegg doing for you?

Generally easier to work on defence than attack.

Farrell should be introduced to the England side at 12. If he deveops a more complete game as he gets older then he can play FH. If Bruns has a good couple of months at 10 for Gloucester then Saxons or even first team beckon.

Clegg is solid defensively and has very good distribution and kicking but doesn't yet know how to pick his moments as a running option. If he can fix that, he's got a lot of potential. That said, he's not Nick Evans - but then again, who is?

Unless Nick Evans has a clone......or son.......

Maybe in the future the family of well known rugby players will come to the front.

At Saracens alone we have Geoffrey Sella (son of french rugby legend Phillipe), Sam Stanley (nephew of All Black, Smoking Joe), Owen Farrell (son of Andy Farrell).

If they are anything like their famous relatives.....

I'm thinking about the next RWC not the next game. Flood will be there in the 6Ns but I'd like to see the pace and composure of Simpson and Farrell to allow them to develop for the next RWC..

I don't believe in trying to build for something 4 years away. The team needs to be winning now, a slow evolution of players in a winning squad will be better than having a young team having their confidence ruined as they are smashed by everybody and slammed by the newspapers.

Simpson and Farrell vs the Scottish rush defence? It would be unfair on the players to shove them into that.

Yes, Flood would be my first choice, with Burns (or Clegg depending on injury/form) as 2nd. I've always rated Hodgson, but Flood is a guaranteed start and I'd rather see any 10min opportunties at the end of games going to developing future prospects than playing a 31yo that won't be first choice or around next WC..

Then what happens if Flood goes down 5 mins into the first 6N game vs Scotland? The young gun comes on against a reknownedly brutal defence for 75 mins? That could be a quick way to destroy his confidence, talk about a baptism of fire!

I agree with DaveM on his point about defence. It's much easier to train someone where to stand and how to hit hard and low than it is to try and teach someone how to read the game. In attack you either have it or you don't in defence there's shades of grey.

Just pick on form - ignore age.

I agree with Sam - don't try some false notion of "building for four years time" - international rugby does not work like that. Use club rugby to determine which players are ready (and don't just pick on the basis of one weekend or one MOTM display - as is so often the case on there). Pick your squad on form, and let it go from there. That gives you the best chance of winning games (and tournaments) and you can build from there.

Come January....or when ever the squad is picked...

Pick the 10's that are playing best.....

Pick the 10's that are playing best..... .

Define best.

10 a diverse position and I think its important to make the right call.

Someone like Quade Cooper plays a vastly different game to Ronan O'Gara. In the right team either could work.

IMO you need a solid goalkicker - someone hitting almost all their kicks. Then I'd be considering is how you want to play. Do you want someone who prefers to stand flat or deep. I'd be just as interested in how they like to play not just what they are good at.

Hedge your bets - do you want someone brilliant on the front foot but poor on the back foot. Or someone who'll do a decent effort regardless - that comes down to your faith in your forwards.

For me Wilkinson remains your best 10.

Authorative and able to control a game i would say is what we are looking for initially.

We will probably be blooding a few new players - potentially an Inside Centre , A second row, a winger, a new back row format.......so rather than a young fireball...it would make sense to have some control the game. Now Flood is the obvious one...and should he become injured i might be inclined to give Johnny one last chance....

If it must be a youngster then possibly Farrell does fit the bill...

Did no-one watch England at the World Cup with Wilkinson at 10?? How on earth can he be considered England's best option at 10 at present.

I haven't seen him at Toulon this season. Is he tearing up the league? If you are suggesting him I can only assume so.

The three 10's playing well for my money at present are Flood, Hodgson and Lamb.

Burns played well at the weekend but I'd want to see him sustain that over the coming weeks for him to be an option. Farrell is another good option but playing out of position at the moment and needs to vary his game more from 10. Clegg is a talent, but unless he plays I don't see how you can pick him for international rugby. Those three would be my Saxons options.

Myler has been overtaken by Lamb, and also Goode is playing well, I don't think he's playing well enough to be in the reckoning ahead of others.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Yes, Flood would be my first choice, with Burns (or Clegg depending on injury/form) as 2nd. I've always rated Hodgson, but Flood is a guaranteed start and I'd rather see any 10min opportunties at the end of games going to developing future prospects than playing a 31yo that won't be first choice or around next WC.

Then what happens if Flood goes down 5 mins into the first 6N game vs Scotland? The young gun comes on against a reknownedly brutal defence for 75 mins? That could be a quick way to destroy his confidence, talk about a baptism of fire!

The bench FH could well have to come on after just 5 mins, but that happens far less frequently than the usual close of game appearance, and the same thing could happen in any first cap you give, the senior fixture list consists almost solely of 6N and 3N teams, none of which are easy bloodings. At some point a chance will have to be taken and new players brought through, Burns is playing well (the HC will test this further and if he goes well would provide a good platform to come off the back of), as is Clegg (who has been recent Saxons first choice), now is an appropriate opportunity. We learn nothing by giving Hodgson close of game cameos.

Is Clegg playing really well? I thought he had only played two matches this season, and is now going to get to watch an awful lot of Nick Evans in the coming weeks. Not his fault, but can England really select a benchwarmer?

We learn nothing by giving Hodgson close of game cameos..

The new players in the squad around him might learn a lot and appreciate an experienced head guiding them though. England need to rejuvinate so much of that 22 man squad that experienced heads are required somewhere and 10 is a good place to have experience. Especially when that experience is in good form, stop handing out caps like crackers and Christmas and make the young guns really work to dislodge Hodgson, Easter etc.

Totally agree Sam. International rugby is not finishing school. Players have to earn international caps otherwise it sends out completely the wrong message.

If, for example, Farrell wants to play for England, his task is simple. Oust Hodgson at Sarries and work on his distribution skills. If he can't do that at Sarries, why on earth should he be playing for England.

I know I keep banging on about it but Ryan Lamb is laying down a real marker at Northampton. Myler was the man in possession but Lamb has really stepped up his game and won the jersey. Another handful of performances at the level he has set himself this season should see him in that squad.

I remember Ryan Lamb started really well at LI last season. Then went downhill hill rapidly towards the business end of the season. If he can maintain his performances throughout the whole season i think he should be a real contender to be understudy to Flood.

Carpe Diem wrote:I remember Ryan Lamb started really well at LI last season. Then went downhill hill rapidly towards the business end of the season. If he can maintain his performances throughout the whole season i think he should be a real contender to be understudy to Flood.

If that's the standard required (play extremely well throughout the season) then that's fine, as long as it's applied consistently. That of course immediately rules out Burns, Clegg and Farrell as England options at 10 for now.

I think it's more on the lines that most people had preconceived ideas that Lamb had issues with handling pressure situations. If he can prove people wrong then i think he'd be an asset to our squad. It goes without saying that the same criteria for selection should apply accross the board, however, when has that ever really been the case?

Preconceived ideas can be a problem in rugby.

Before the World Cup Wilkinson was a world class goal kicker, the "solid option".

When Nonu broke into the All Blacks side he couldn't pass and was a "head down" crash ball merchant with no vision.

When Neil Back broke through he was "too small" for international rugby.

Some players take longer to mature than others. I think Lamb should be judged on current form.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:I remember Ryan Lamb started really well at LI last season. Then went downhill hill rapidly towards the business end of the season. If he can maintain his performances throughout the whole season i think he should be a real contender to be understudy to Flood.

If that's the standard required (play extremely well throughout the season) then that's fine, as long as it's applied consistently. That of course immediately rules out Burns, Clegg and Farrell as England options at 10 for now.

If Lamb, Burns, Clegg & Farrell are all ruled out and Flood & Hodgson maintained, who is the third FH option? Wilkinson? Wigglesworth?!

A new option has to be brought into the squad. Waiting 2 years till Hodgson & Wilkinson have both retired before we start bringing young players into the peripherals of the EPS and then realising 2 years isn't enough time to get them up to international speed is not the right road to go down.

I don't see Lamb making it internationally, he's played some good moments for Saints so far, but still not that consistently, the errors and overly speculative play are far from eradicated, which doesn't bode well for someone as far along in his career as he is. His set-piece kicking is average and I have serious doubts over his ability to stand up physically (he's the same size as Ford, but without the prospect of growing).

His previous falterings under pressure, other reasons clubs have often sidelined him and at times passed him round like a hot potato, means that in my eyes he probably has to prove himself even more than the younger prospects.

Even at his best he's a poor man's Hodgson. Not someone I can ever see being a suiatble cog in a national side.

I think Saints should have signed better as well (not really a step up from Geraghty, just sideways), they need a top class FH to win the national or European title, they won't do it with the likes of Myler, Lamb or Geraghty.

To be clear, I would not rule out Burns, Clegg and Farrell, I was merely suggesting that by ruling out Lamb for not showing consistency over an entire season, it would be unfair to select a player ahead of him who also fails on that basis, particularly one his is currently outplaying.

I wouldn't let Wilkinson anywhere near the England squad at the moment. His performances at the WC were considerably worse than anything seen in an England 10 jersey for a long time.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

We learn nothing by giving Hodgson close of game cameos..

The new players in the squad around him might learn a lot and appreciate an experienced head guiding them though. England need to rejuvinate so much of that 22 man squad that experienced heads are required somewhere and 10 is a good place to have experience. Especially when that experience is in good form, stop handing out caps like crackers and Christmas and make the young guns really work to dislodge Hodgson, Easter etc.

I'd agree with that if he was first choice or a serious contender as first choice, but Flood is nailed on and will be in the leading position throughout all the training sessions, so new players will be spending much more time looking to him (not least because he has the most international experience and success), and an understudy will be guided more and brought on much further & quicker by training as first choice back up.

I'm certainly not suggesting "handing out caps like crackers", not starting the most experienced players, nor selecting players if they don't earn it or aren't in form. Flood is the most internationally experienced player and he stays, the next option will almost certainly play a minor role in the tournament, and I've already said that Burns (or Clegg) being selected is dependent on his form and how he goes in the HC. If Burns can come out of Toulouse and Harlequins HC games with credit then I think he'd be would be worthy of the understudy role.

funnyExiledScot wrote:To be clear, I would not rule out Burns, Clegg and Farrell, I was merely suggesting that by ruling out Lamb for not showing consistency over an entire season, it would be unfair to select a player ahead of him who also fails on that basis, particularly one his is currently outplaying.

I wouldn't let Wilkinson anywhere near the England squad at the moment. His performances at the WC were considerably worse than anything seen in an England 10 jersey for a long time.

The difference with those players is that Lamb had a dramatic drop of form leading to him first losing his starting spot and then dropping out of the 23 altogether as he fell apart and his coach lost faith in him.

Clegg, Farrell and Burns compared to that have all had very consistent 3-4 seasons. Clegg was first choice at Newcastle as a teen, and has consistently been called up to cover the best flyhalf in the North and in most of those call ups hasn't let us down. He is a consistent player but not first choice, but i would draw people to Cole's predicament with Castrogiovani infront of him.

Likewise Burns and farrel, both are very consistent players and their coaches have complete faith with them at 10, sometimes though for what ever reasons there are better options to start at 10 for a particular game.

I hope i make sense.

yappysnap wrote:...i would draw people to Cole's predicament with Castrogiovani infront of him.

Is this really true though? I was under the impression that the two started a roughly equal number of club games. Cole started the HC quarter final last year ahead of Castro for example.

"Clegg was first choice at Newcastle as a teen"

Not quite Yappy....

"I was under the impression that the two started a roughly equal number of club games"

Yeah i was under that impression aswell....

tomathy wrote:

yappysnap wrote:...i would draw people to Cole's predicament with Castrogiovani infront of him.

Is this really true though? I was under the impression that the two started a roughly equal number of club games. Cole started the HC quarter final last year ahead of Castro for example.

Similar, but Castro gets more starts. Last season he started 11 AP games to Cole's 8 and 4 HC games to Cole's 3. The season before, 12 to 8 and 3 to 2.

Cole got the nod over Castro for the HC QF last year because Castro had a calf problem in the lead up to it.

Cole got the nod over Castro for the HC QF last year because Castro had a calf problem in the lead up to it..

Tigers needed Castro on the bench to cover any injury to Stankovitch. Ayerza was banned and the 3rd choice loosehead was injured so it was a choice of putting academy prop Harris on the bench or leaving Castro on the bench to cover 1 and 3 with Julian White there as emergency cover. Thinking about it we should have used White he'd have stopped the Leinster funny business at the lineout and breakdown.

If Burns can come out of Toulouse and Harlequins HC games with credit then I think he'd be would be worthy of the understudy role..

I'd still be inclined to leave off on the 10 understudy role until the summer. Bed in a new midfield, second row, backrow etc and then look at different play makers. You want a stable platform for these young 10s.

yappysnap wrote:Clegg, Farrell and Burns compared to that have all had very consistent 3-4 seasons. Clegg was first choice at Newcastle as a teen, and has consistently been called up to cover the best flyhalf in the North and in most of those call ups hasn't let us down. He is a consistent player but not first choice, but i would draw people to Cole's predicament with Castrogiovani infront of him.

I hope i make sense.

How have Farrell, Burns and Clegg had very consistent 3-4 seasons? If you mean consistently not playing as first choice 10's at their clubs over that period then I guess that does make sense.

Cole and Castro is quite different, for the reasons people have pointed out. Cole is very much part of the 80 minute gameplan at Leicester, and even when he doesn't start, he is normally brought on as an impact sub. Quins would not sub Evans unless he was injured. Clegg will likely only get a small handful of games this season, and will not feature in the big games. Not his fault at all, Evans is top class, but it makes it very diffcult to select him for England.

I think we need to see how Lamb does in the HC first. Same with the other contenders too.

Owen Farrell has shown he is a decent AP fly half. Preventing Tango man from getting a look in at Saracens. He made the Saracens fly half shirt his own last season and of course made the decisive kicks in the AP final to win it. Slotting 6/6 in a high pressure situation like that is not easy!

Obviously with C.Hodgson in the mix it means Farrell isnt always at fly half. He is still obviously an important player though.

In regards to Clegg it's tough for him having Evans in front of him.

Not sure where Cole and Castro fit in to a conversation about fly halves! I suppose if Mauro Bergamasco can play at scrum half and Ugo Monye can play at full back.....

Clegg is starting all our LV games this season (though whether he would start the final if we reached it is a different matter), but people are right that barring injury he's very unlikely to start any premiership games. Still, he gets to learn off Evans in training and when Evans begins to tail off a bit in the last year or two of his career there is a good chance that Clegg will emerge as a seriously good player. He was really good for the Saxons in the Churchill Cup.

Completely agree that Clegg will emerge as a seriously good player, perhaps the pick of the bunch, but I wouldn't pick him for the EPS now.

Beshocked - completely agree. The HC will provide an example showcase to see who is up to the task. I just hope people will not allow preconceptions to cloud judgement.

Evans has got two more years on his contract and that will take him up to 33 (info according to Wiki). That might mean Clegg is getting splinters for a while yet but as he's only 21 that's not the worst thing. Being forced to compete for the shirt will be good for him as the competition Farrell and Burns face at Sarries and Gloucester will be good for them. If they earn their shirts they will have had to improve their overall game and develop a level of consistentcy.

The HEC will be an interesting watch this weekend, though as we don't know who will be in charge of the England squad come the 6N it's going to be difficult for the coaches to know what to look for (or even if it's worth looking).

formerly known as Sam wrote:Evans has got two more years on his contract and that will take him up to 33 (info according to Wiki). That might mean Clegg is getting splinters for a while yet but as he's only 21 that's not the worst thing. Being forced to compete for the shirt will be good for him as the competition Farrell and Burns face at Sarries and Gloucester will be good for them. If they earn their shirts they will have had to improve their overall game and develop a level of consistentcy.

The HEC will be an interesting watch this weekend, though as we don't know who will be in charge of the England squad come the 6N it's going to be difficult for the coaches to know what to look for (or even if it's worth looking).

i forgot that evans already is in the last year or two of his contract. Clegg will get his big shot in 2013 then.

Unless Quins offer Evans a deal past his 33rd bday. Which could happen depending on his form, although, knowing Quins there's probabley some academy players with buckets of pace and flair happy to step into the 10 shirt.

Funny...there is a trend here....young player produced in academy...playing regularly for club then gets big ideas and rushes off to ultimately sit on bench for larger team...when they would have been guarenteed starting at previous club....can you guess yet??

Clegg?
Miller?
Brookes?
Need i go on?

Brookes was getting starts until he got injured and is now out until January (it was in a game against the Falcons before anyone asks about Tigers training sessions).

I thought Miller might have been given a run at 10 for Sale before now as he seems a pretty incisive player. He is playing well at full back though.

The problem with England especially,but also other teams IF for example take from the England 2003 squad.Martin Johnson,Jonny Wilkinson,Richard Hill and Neil Back.ALL were a once in a generation thing nearly all retired post RWC 2003 or soon after.
In the case of Flyhalf,it was a case of just fitting in until Jonny was fit then every thing will be all right.BUT since 2003 he has`nt ben anything like the player he was.
When you start looking at Fly halves,you need to tick the boxes,passes of both hands,can beat a man,run good lines,sound defence,good kicking game[drop,grubber,cross,box,upand under,punt etc.].THEN you nod your head because its not Jonny,Hodgeson,Barkley, Flood,Cipriani ,all ticked most the boxes but were`nt Jonny.
NOW people need to pick a couple,and stick with them until 2015,Flood is in place,with respect JW is the past.
So backups are needed for Flood,let them be themselves NOT another Jonny.