Saracens : are they just fifth columnists?

And is Beshocked their equivalent of Lord Haw Haw?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15672153.stm

"Saracens have released prop Deon Carstens to enable the South African to join Western Province in his home city of Cape Town.

The 32-year-old has made 29 appearances for the Premiership side since joining from Sharks in July 2010, 10 of which came this season.

He has nine Springbok caps, the most recent coming two years ago.

"I am very sad to be leaving Saracens. But I am massively looking forward to the opportunity in Cape Town," he said.

"I am also very grateful to Saracens for their pragmatic approach to this situation.

"This is a special club. It's run in a different way to any other rugby club in my experience, and it is undoubtedly the right way.".

Thanks Portnoy for your inciteful and highly witty comments. I am highly flattered by the honourable mention of my name.

I doff my cap to you sir! Comparing me to a Nazi broadcaster is a little harsh though old boy!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Haw-Haw

I hope you don't feel threatened by Saracens. You shouldn't.

I expected more from you.

Sorry Beshocked - but you have always supported the opposite view that the Sarries are not a Saffer feeder team. Yet when WF get in to a bit of a tiz, you hand back a prop who has played ten times this season.

What is the primary drive? English or South African rugby?

Not a loss for Sarries as Carstens really isn't a great prop and they probabley need to start making room in the salary cap for the arrival of Tomkins.

OK Sam - it just eases the payments for John Smit?

or Tomkins. Presumably at some point Sarries have to run out of wage cap.

Do the Sarries board have any connection to Western Force? Who did Brits go on loan to at the end of last season?

Portnoy wrote:And is Beshocked their equivalent of Lord Haw Haw?

Blimey what's that law about once you start to compare someone to the nazis you have automatically lost the arguement?

Me old mate B is just passionate about his team. Can't blame him for that can you bud?

Very true Sam. Carstens isn't a loss. I have never been a big fan of his.

Portnoy do you know how old Carstens is?

If we acquire Barnet Copthall then of course the priority will be English rugby.

I would mention the numbers of Saracens players in the England U18s and U20s but that doesn't seem to matter to you.

I thought you would be pleased we were offloading a South African!?

Sam I believe the loan was for Stormers but Brits has played for Western Province

Well we have London Irish, London Scots, London Welsh... maybe Sarries should change their name to London Saffas?

Thanks Metal Tiger.

That doesn't work though.

We aren't in London yet!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/8880765/Saracens-centre-Owen-Farrell-making-big-impact-as-he-wins-Aviva-Premiership-Player-of-the-Month-award.html

Oh yeah and Portnoy I would just like to add this link for your pleasure.

Why play HEC games in SA?

Why broadcast openly (like on FiveLive a month ago) about the intention to scoop up the many Saffer exiles in the SE?

I know that that's just a marketing ploy. But the signing of Brits and the Carstens 'release' and Venter's sudden repatriation after his TV outbursts seem to preserve and protect the Saffacens credulity.

I don't deny the youth model in emergence.

But I really do question their English commitment.

Oh, and by the way, you never came back to me on the nationalities of Sarries' RWC commitments.

Sigh it seems like I have to explain everything to you Portnoy.

They are playing HC game in SA for a few reasons.

50% of Saracens is currently owned by South Africans. The South African investors wanted a game in their home country.

It's a sweetener for pumping in the amount of investment they have.

Commercially and for the brand as a whole it will broaden the horizons.

The South African players we have will be happy to play in their own country. The other Saracens players will enjoy being in sunny South Africa instead of damp and depressing Watford.

What do you mean nationality commitments? Saracens had more English players in the world cup than South African ones.

Saracens have more representatives than Leicester in the England U20s and U18s. You should be asking questions of your own club.

Quite possibly when the Leicester dominated England management are sacked we might see a few more players from the likes of Quins,London Irish,Gloucester and Saracens.

I don't see a thing wrong with Saracens releasing him.

This article would be like us claiming Leicester were looking out for Irish rugby with all the Irish internationals they've produced or Quins looking out for Argentina because of the multiple Argentine internationals we've produced.

And he was a pretty pants prop.

Leicester has been fairly dependent on Irish rugby for a while. Geordan Murphy, Johne Murphy, Frank Murphy, Ian Humphreys, Jeremy Staunton, Leo Cullen, Shane Jennings, Niall Morris, Eric Miller all come to mind in last few years.

Those in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones. Sarries are doing nothing wrong.

Saracens have more representatives than Leicester in the England U20s and U18s. You should be asking questions of your own club

As is always the case, Tigers players always have slim pickings in the age grade levels and then the players develop and become good players and get called up. It's due to the Tigers old school mentality of forcing players to fight for the right to wear the shirt. If they get a shot they know they've earnt the chance and so when they break into the team they tend to make an impact. Billy Twelvetrees is a prime example, he didn't represent England at any level before the Saxons but by the time Tigers had molded him and sent him out for Championship experience he is started to look a fine centre.

Quite possibly when the Leicester dominated England management are sacked we might see a few more players from the likes of Quins,London Irish,Gloucester and Saracens..

Not sure which Sarries players and being blocked by Tigers players who are picked by the 'bias' management of the England first team. The same management team that includes a former Sarries head coach.

Leicester has been fairly dependent on Irish rugby for a while

I'd argue that Irish rugby has been fairly dependent on Tigers improving some of their youngsters, Leinster didn't even have the good grace to let us win in 2009 after all we'd done for them .

Everyone signs NEQ players to supplement what they produce internally. Even Quins.

red_stag wrote:Leicester has been fairly dependent on Irish rugby for a while. Geordan Murphy, Johne Murphy, Frank Murphy, Ian Humphreys, Jeremy Staunton, Leo Cullen, Shane Jennings, Niall Morris, Eric Miller all come to mind in last few years.

Those in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones. Sarries are doing nothing wrong.

You're not wrong there Staggy. At one point we used to refer to ourselves as Leicester Irish!

We used to have some sort of informal arrangement with Leinster over the years and exchanged / developed players etc. It was something that was always acknowledged and quite proud about, especially when Martin Corry gave the nod to Leo Cullen and Shane Jennings to lift the cup when we won the GP. Both players went back to Leinster better for the experiance of playing in England.

But to be fair, they mostly players that have come and gone over the years and our make up is not as heavily irish dominated as Sarries is by South Africans.

Cheers red stag and yappysnap.

True Carstens wasn't a great prop. No loss at all. He was a penalty machine too.

Portnoy is upset. Poor guy.

Sam we'll see more Quins,Gloucester,Saracens players etc in the 6 nations squad IMO. I think the Leicester dominated management will be sacked.

If Twelvetrees wasnt from Leicester would be so hyped up to the maximum? I doubt it. Quite possibly the most overrated player currently in the AP.

Tigers fans, I just hope you are ready for the Irish invasion on Saturday week

aye and Leicester Irish, like Saracens, are going to play a game in Ireland this year.
Ulster v Leicester Irish

Don't see a problem with Saracens, letting a player leave if he wanted to go.

beshocked wrote:Portnoy is upset. Poor guy.

So long as playoffs, the Pro 12, rugby during the international windows and Englands inconsisntency on the wold stage survive, so too will Portnoys angst

The original post by Portnoy was ridiculous, but to then suggest that Leicester players were selected by England coaches because of a bias is equally ridiculous. Anyone who knows anything about Martin johnson knows he cares only about winning. You may diasgree with his choices, but he will always pick what he believes are the best players. By flying Waldrom half way round the world to make the tea he harmed Leicester.

Cole, Croft, Youngs, Flood and Manu will be in the 6N EPS regardless of who the coaching staff are. Deacon is the selection that people love to deride and opinion will always be divided - but I suspect jonno may know summat about second row play. He will drop out of the squad now any way.

red_stag wrote:

beshocked wrote:Portnoy is upset. Poor guy.

So long as playoffs, the Pro 12, rugby during the international windows and Englands inconsisntency on the wold stage survive, so too will Portnoys angst

You forgot ringfencing and franchises.

London Tiger I never mentioned the word bias. Maybe inferred it but it's all about interpretation.

Do you think there will be more players from Quins,Gloucester,Saracens etc in the next 6 nations squad? Yes or No. I think there will.

Do you think the current England management will be sacked? I do

Do you think the current England management are Leicester dominated? I do

Are the current England management incompetent? Yes

Did they make wrong coaching selections in the RWC? Yes

No you can't argue about Youngs,Flood,Cole,Croft or Tuilagi. Thats true.

red_stag wrote:

beshocked wrote:Portnoy is upset. Poor guy.

So long as playoffs, the Pro 12, rugby during the international windows and Englands inconsisntency on the wold stage survive, so too will Portnoys angst

That's not fair or Staggy as you know. And I think that you misrepresent me completely by inference.

The playoffs (as I have to again repeat) are not necessary. Dump the P-Os and hey presto - there are enough weeks in the calendar in the season to play a full league programme all outside the IWs.
I have no problem with the Rabo - per se. I just claim that the best sides should qualify - not the best national qualifiers.

And my frustration regarding England's consistency on the World stage is something that I suspect that you will appreciate in the next few years

Heaven forfend the poster who accuses others of being fifth columnists, politburo members, smug elitists etc should be misrepresented.

Portnoy wrote:The playoffs (as I have to again repeat) are not necessary. Dump the P-Os and hey presto - there are enough weeks in the calendar in the season to play a full league programme all outside the IWs.

The AIs take 4 weekends and the squad will be called together at least a week before, making 5 weekends; the 6N take up 5 playing weekends, 7 weekends in total with the byes (unlike the WC, the 6N doesn't have 1-2 third tier match ups that allow for heavy squad rotation), and the players are again called up at least a week before, making 8 weekends. That's 13 weekends that international players are away (on top of which players are often given the weekend after they return off, or come back injured so end up being out for a further month, so teams could be without players for well in excess of 15 weekends due to their international involvement), whilst the play-offs and final only take up 2 weekends.

Portnoy how did I misrepresent you; in your last post you confirmed you had a problem with them.

Yours Sincerely
Rugby Politburo Member #24601

beshocked wrote:

If Twelvetrees wasnt from Leicester would be so hyped up to the maximum? I doubt it. Quite possibly the most overrated player currently in the AP.

I've defended you B because I thought Portnoy was being unfair to you but your now just decending into slagging off Tigers. Cut it out mate. Yes there is a heavily Tigers influenced management setup in England but with Tigers being the most succesful & consistent club in the English game & professional era did you think it was going to be any different? However, I agree it is time for Wells & Ford to move on (not Rowntree though as I am hearing positive things about him) but I don't agree with the Tiger bashing.

As for Billy 36... The reason he is overhyped was because of "that game" against Ospreys where a fairly unknown academy player came on to the pitch as a 2nd half replacement in a lost game and almost single handedly engineered and ran in one of the greatest comebacks in Tigers history. It also helps that he can slot penalty kicks from his own half. A thunderous boot!! Unfortunately for Billy everyone expects him to play like that every week.

We can't sack Mike Ford - he represents Sarries on the coaching panel

Thanks Metal Tiger. I apologise. You are right. There is no doubt Tigers are the most successful and consistent club in the English game. I just want to see the changing of the guard. Do I want to see Tigers plummet? No that would be sad just like Wasp's demise.

I don't want to see the English side dominated by one or two teams. I am referring to Northampton and Wasps also. Maybe this will change now.

I want all English clubs to do well in the HC. I want an English side to lift the HC trophy.

Don't think it's just the Leicester influenced management coaches. I think Smith and Ford are just as bad if not worse.

In regards to Rowntree I wasn't pleased by England's scrummaging effort!

I will back my team first but then all other English clubs in Europe.


That's the thing about Billy. If he had sustained game time and had shown consistent good form then I could understand the clamour. An excellent game here or there doesn't mean he is ready for England.

LondonTiger possibly ironically I would switch Ford with Paul Gustard!

Tigers fans, I just hope you are ready for the Irish invasion on Saturday week

We're looking forward to it.

LondonTiger possibly ironically I would switch Ford with Paul Gustard!.

That would be a pretty popular choice.

As for Billy 36... The reason he is overhyped was because of "that game" against Ospreys where a fairly unknown academy player came on to the pitch as a 2nd half replacement

He played 12 in the first half with Allen at 13 and Staunton at 10. Both Allen and Staunton picked up injuries in the first half (Staunton playing appallingly as well) and Newby came on for Allen. Staunton limped along at 12 (bravely putting his body on the line) with Newby at 13 and Billy stepped in at 10. He was only told on the Friday he was in the squad and was only told on the morning of the game he was playing. So sure that he wasn't playing he'd even told his gf and his family to not bother travelling to the game. What made him a fan favourite was that he turned the game round and then came off the field disappointed with his own performance citing two missed kicks (from near half way) and a pass he didn't give as the reason Tigers lost. That level of humility deserves respect.

http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/1367.php

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

What made him a fan favourite was that he turned the game round and then came off the field disappointed with his own performance citing two missed kicks (from near half way) and a pass he didn't give as the reason Tigers lost. That level of humility deserves respect.

Drew

formerly known as Sam wrote:
He played 12 in the first half with Allen at 13 and Staunton at 10. Both Allen and Staunton picked up injuries in the first half (Staunton playing appallingly as well) and Newby came on for Allen. Staunton limped along at 12 (bravely putting his body on the line) with Newby at 13 and Billy stepped in at 10.

You're quite right Sam. I was thinking about Billy moving into the 10 spot and had forgotten he played 12 in the first half.

When he moved to 10 it was the game changer. To be fair he axis of Grindal and Staunton was so poor in the first half it was easy to forget who the backs were as they didn't get much useable ball. Staunton's hideous pass that resulted in an easy pick up and try for (I think) Bowe being the prime example of this.

Just testing LT, just testing...

Why have Grindal and Staunton persisted at Leicester? They are pretty rubbish.

Surely you should be showing them the front door?

Grindal will be gone at the end of the season. He was signed to provide experienced cover whilst Harrison developed and the 9 shirt was contested between Ellis and Youngs. Unfortunatley injuries to Ellis and his retirement meant that Grindal got more game time than intended. Now Micky Young has been signed up and Harrison is playing well Grindal is 4th choice and will probabley be released at the end of the season.

Staunton is persisted with because experienced 10s aren't cheap and we haven't got much wage cap to play with and have an international quality 10 limiting whoever is 2nd to not a lot of game time. He is apparently a very good training ground mentor to the likes of Twelvetrees and Ford which makes up for his average skill set. Next season looks to be his last at Tigers has he is pretty close to retirement and Ford is breathing down his neck with Twelvetrees able to play 10 as well.

beshocked wrote:Why have Grindal and Staunton persisted at Leicester? They are pretty rubbish.

Surely you should be showing them the front door?

Well Grindal was brought back from Newcastle to be third choice SH. Ellis retired and Youngs got in the England team so we have seen more of him than we would have liked. He is now 4th choice and as such ok.

Staunton is odd. Until he was injured last year he was playing well and trying to play flat. However he is meant to be a controlling/kicking FH - yet kicks so poorly from hand. He will be clear third choice by the end of the season.


They are decent players to have as 3rd/4th choice - and reasonably cheap. With the money we are paying for tightheads there have to be savings made somewhere.

LondonTiger true as 3rd/4th choice.

Sam I just feel that with their experience you would expect better.

I know you don't want me to remind you but an experienced operator like Staunton shouldn't make school boy errors like on the weekend.

Do you see Twelvetrees as a fly half?

There was a time when Staunton was the heir apparent to ROG. Didn't quite work out.

LondonTiger wrote:They are decent players to have as 3rd/4th choice - and reasonably cheap. With the money we are paying for tightheads there have to be savings made somewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted we've kept our front row together: Most clubs would give their right arm to have players like Castro but it must have put a big hole in our finances to retain him what with a few of the French clubs reportedly offering him a blank cheque to move.

But it's also fair to say that a lot of players will choose to play for Tigers for less money than offered elsewhere because of the culture, the exposure to top flight and the many lucrative sponsership deals players can pick up ontop of their Tiggers paypacket by being associated with Welford road. Not to mention that Castro is extreamly settled and happy living in Leicester and he has his restaurant he co owns with Geordan.

Sam I just feel that with their experience you would expect better

That would make two of us. They have put their bodies on the line so I won't be too harsh but the fundamental lack of skill with each of them should restrict their future at Tigers until their contracts run out (sooner if we can offload them).

Staunton threatens to be a good player but lacks the vision and precision to be a quality 10 (as seen at the weekend when he bodged the clearence and got charged down). Twelvetrees would do as a 3rd choice option in a year or so when Staunton's contract has run out and Ford has matured enough to be the back up to Flood. Billy did a half decent job as stand in last season and if nothing else offers a great defensive option in the 10 channel.

Castro is extreamly settled and happy living in Leicester and he has his restaurant he co owns with Geordan.

There are two Timo Italian restaurants, as far as I know only Timo2 is owned with Geordan. I've only been to Timo1 but the food was very good.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b016vy91/5_live_Sport_5_live_Rugby_10_11_2011/

Last evening : an incredibly uncritical free advert for the Saffa model. The underlying message being the globalisation of rugby and the justification of asset stripping the RL code.

p.s. beshocked I am still awaiting your Sarries' RWC losses to the RWC by nationality breakdown...

You seem to be reticent to respond.

Portnoy I am not sure what you are on about.

Seriously though you need to lighten up.

Portnoy wrote:p.s. beshocked I am still awaiting your Sarries' RWC losses to the RWC by nationality breakdown...

You seem to be reticent to respond.

Portnoy, can't you do your own homework? https://www.606v2.com/t17846p50-heineken-cup-pool-5-discussion#670856

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Portnoy wrote:p.s. beshocked I am still awaiting your Sarries' RWC losses to the RWC by nationality breakdown...

You seem to be reticent to respond.

Portnoy, can't you do your own homework? https://www.606v2.com/t17846p50-heineken-cup-pool-5-discussion#670856

Well I scanned the article As.
But can't find an answer to my query.

Perhaps Madiba may have been a bit more forthcoming.

Sorry Portnoy what information is it that you actually want to know?

Saracens -

England - Wigglesworth and Stevens - 2

USA - Wyles and Smith - 2

Fiji - Tagicakibau - 1

Scotland - Brown - 1

Namibia - Burger - 1

South Africa - Smit 1

Anything else you wish to know my liege?

Madiba? Pretty sure beshocked isn't the founding father of the new south Africa. I'm sure you didn't want to misrepresent him.