Pacquaio vs. Marquez: SPOILERS!!! How do YOU feel?

by School Project Sun 13 Nov 2011, 5:26 am

First topic message reminder :

Am I seeing the same thing here? Marquez is SCHOOLING Pacquiao?

It's Round 8 and I've got Marquez 5 rounds up...

by BALTIMORA Mon 14 Nov 2011, 12:05 pm

Watching the highlights Scott posted above...I know they're selective, but it reminds me of why I love watching Marquez box, and the thought of him having to dance to Arum & 'team' Pacquiao's tune once more makes me feel sick.

by BALTIMORA Mon 14 Nov 2011, 12:27 pm

Nice gallery of shots from the fight here:

http://www.fightnewsextra.com/cc/2011/11-pacquiao_marquez_3.htm

by Steffan Mon 14 Nov 2011, 12:30 pm

I dont care what them judges say. Marquez is the man that won the fight

by Strongback Mon 14 Nov 2011, 12:35 pm

I first watched the fight with the Primetime commentary and did not score the fight. I generally felt that Marquez did enough to win and was the better man on the night.

I decided to watch the fight again last night with the HBO commentary, which was certainly pro Pacquiao. I only managed to get through 6 rounds before I got tired and went to bed. In those 6 rounds I tried to be as scrupulous as possible with my scoring.

I saw it like this:

Round 1 - very little action, just feeling out. In the history of boxing the champ always wins a round like this. Judges don't give drawn rounds, we know this and this has always been the way whether this is right or wrong.

Round 2: Marquez started to engage and had good success and it was easy to see he won the round.

Round 3: another fairly tame round, again these traditionally go to the champ. Judges were judging this way long before these two fighters were born.

Round 4: not a decisive round for either fighter but Marquez did enough.

Round 5: Very good round for Marquez. He landed power shots and clearly won the round.

Round 6: Manny came out and pushed the pace and Marquez was a little less successful. Manny takes the round by being more aggressive.

At the half way point Lederman had it 4-2 to Manny. I had it 3-3.

Lederman's point was Marquez needed to make it easier for the judges to give him rounds and that his lack of aggression wasn't making it easy for them.

Manny won the soft rounds because he is champ. We know how it works.

I'm looking forward to scoring the final half of the fight tonight but I think Marquez tires a bit.

I am starting to think I will end up scoring the fight as a very close run thing. I don't see it as Marquez by 4 rounds on second view.

by BALTIMORA Mon 14 Nov 2011, 12:38 pm

Steffan wrote:I dont care what them judges say. Marquez is the man that won the fight

Definitely. I just don't want him to take a fight with Khan now because Khan would love to have the name on his record, and I think his height, youth and reach would be the deciding factor.

by manos de piedra Mon 14 Nov 2011, 12:42 pm

I cant see Marquez turning down a rematch if offered. Just too much money on offer even if he does feel he will get shafted. The fight will sell big also so it would probably be a career high purse Marquez would be turning down and nobody else could offer him even nearly as much.

by Steffan Mon 14 Nov 2011, 12:50 pm

I dont blame Marquez. He will never get a fair verdict against Poochio so may as well take another fight if he decides to fight on. Panny will continue to duck Mayweather. I think most people bar Packtards and Floyd haters think Mayweather would give the Pooch a pasting

by BALTIMORA Mon 14 Nov 2011, 12:56 pm

I've seen a few people saying it's stupid to think this result is any indication of how a Mayweather fight would pan out, but I think it quite clearly does give some suggestion of the probable outcome. I can't stand Mayweather, but I think he'd make Pacquiao miss a lot and counter him to a clear decision, maybe even a late stoppage. If Pacquiao is suffering 'leg cramps' every fight (his last two at least), he needs to sack Ariza!

by Super D Boon Mon 14 Nov 2011, 1:04 pm

Pacquaoi will duck Floyd for all it's worth now. Said all along the fight won't happen anyway.

by Sugar Boy Sweetie Mon 14 Nov 2011, 1:36 pm

Said from day 1 that pacquiao struggles with slick fighters that don't march towards him and that, on that basis, mayweather would outbox him and win on points. Told it to D4 til I was blue in the keyboard. Marquez performance only serves as a reminder of that. Can only hope that this doesn't deter team Pac from facing mayweather and getting the boxing lesson he's had coming to him for 2 years.

As for Marquez, I'd tell that greedy, manipulative crook Arum to die, take a big payday for an all Mexico in Mexico career finale against Morales and walk off into the sunset knowing that, for all the corruption and politics, the fans (save for the deranged pacnuts) know who the better man was.

by BoxingFan88 Mon 14 Nov 2011, 1:58 pm

I saw our boy D4 on youtube, I asked him if he thought pacquiao won, didn't receive a response though....

by manos de piedra Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:02 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:I saw our boy D4 on youtube, I asked him if he thought pacquiao won, didn't receive a response though....

He scored it 115-113 to Marquez apparently. Although no doubt he has rewatched it and analysed compubox stats and will change his mind.

by School Project Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:10 pm

Here's the cards of some of the top journalists in boxing (Stolen from RING Magazine website):

Lem Satterfield, Ringtv.com: 117-111, Juan Manuel Marquez
Ron Borges, Boston Herald: 117-112, Marquez
Chris Mannix, Sports Illustrated: 116-112, Marquez
Tim Smith, New York Daily News: 116-112, Marquez
Mike Coppinger, RingTV.com: 115-113, Marquez
Bill Dwyre, Los Angeles Times: 115-113, Marquez
Norm Frauenheim, www.15rounds.com: 115-113, Marquez
Ryan Maquinana, BoxingScene.com/CSNBAYAREA.com: 115-113, Marquez
Lance Pugmire, Los Angeles Times: 115-113, Marquez
Bob Velin, USA Today: 115-113, Marquez
George Willis, New York Post: 115-113, Marquez
Jerry Izenberg, Philadelphia Inquirer: 115-114, Marquez
Sean Sullivan, Boxing Digest: 115-114, Manny Pacquiao
Steve Carp, Las Vegas Review-Journal: 114-114
Tim Dahlberg, Associated Press: 114-114
Bryan Graham, Sports Illustrated: 114-114
Kevin Iole, Yahoo!Sports: 114-114
Kieran Mulvaney, ESPN.com/Reuters: 114-114
Dan Rafael, ESPN.com: 114-114
Rick Reeno, BoxingScene.com: 114-114

Marquez win: 12
Pacquaio win: 1
Draw: 7

by manos de piedra Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:13 pm

School Project wrote:Here's the cards of some of the top journalists in boxing (Stolen from RING Magazine website):

Lem Satterfield, Ringtv.com: 117-111, Juan Manuel Marquez
Ron Borges, Boston Herald: 117-112, Marquez
Chris Mannix, Sports Illustrated: 116-112, Marquez
Tim Smith, New York Daily News: 116-112, Marquez
Mike Coppinger, RingTV.com: 115-113, Marquez
Bill Dwyre, Los Angeles Times: 115-113, Marquez
Norm Frauenheim, www.15rounds.com: 115-113, Marquez
Ryan Maquinana, BoxingScene.com/CSNBAYAREA.com: 115-113, Marquez
Lance Pugmire, Los Angeles Times: 115-113, Marquez
Bob Velin, USA Today: 115-113, Marquez
George Willis, New York Post: 115-113, Marquez
Jerry Izenberg, Philadelphia Inquirer: 115-114, Marquez
Sean Sullivan, Boxing Digest: 115-114, Manny Pacquiao
Steve Carp, Las Vegas Review-Journal: 114-114
Tim Dahlberg, Associated Press: 114-114
Bryan Graham, Sports Illustrated: 114-114
Kevin Iole, Yahoo!Sports: 114-114
Kieran Mulvaney, ESPN.com/Reuters: 114-114
Dan Rafael, ESPN.com: 114-114
Rick Reeno, BoxingScene.com: 114-114

Marquez win: 12
Pacquaio win: 1
Draw: 7

Just shows how outrageous the 116-112 Pacquiao card was. You would have to go to the Phillipines to find another like it.

by Rowley Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:15 pm

Cheers for posting that SP, fascinating stuff. 1 person calling it for Manny kind of tells you everything you need to know.

by BALTIMORA Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:19 pm

School Project wrote:Here's the cards of some of the top journalists in boxing (Stolen from RING Magazine website):

Lem Satterfield, Ringtv.com: 117-111, Juan Manuel Marquez
Ron Borges, Boston Herald: 117-112, Marquez
Chris Mannix, Sports Illustrated: 116-112, Marquez
Tim Smith, New York Daily News: 116-112, Marquez
Mike Coppinger, RingTV.com: 115-113, Marquez
Bill Dwyre, Los Angeles Times: 115-113, Marquez
Norm Frauenheim, www.15rounds.com: 115-113, Marquez
Ryan Maquinana, BoxingScene.com/CSNBAYAREA.com: 115-113, Marquez
Lance Pugmire, Los Angeles Times: 115-113, Marquez
Bob Velin, USA Today: 115-113, Marquez
George Willis, New York Post: 115-113, Marquez
Jerry Izenberg, Philadelphia Inquirer: 115-114, Marquez
Sean Sullivan, Boxing Digest: 115-114, Manny Pacquiao
Steve Carp, Las Vegas Review-Journal: 114-114
Tim Dahlberg, Associated Press: 114-114
Bryan Graham, Sports Illustrated: 114-114
Kevin Iole, Yahoo!Sports: 114-114
Kieran Mulvaney, ESPN.com/Reuters: 114-114
Dan Rafael, ESPN.com: 114-114
Rick Reeno, BoxingScene.com: 114-114

Marquez win: 12
Pacquaio win: 1
Draw: 7

by Scottrf Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:28 pm

School Project wrote:Here's the cards of some of the top journalists in boxing (Stolen from RING Magazine website):

Lem Satterfield, Ringtv.com: 117-111, Juan Manuel Marquez
Ron Borges, Boston Herald: 117-112, Marquez
Chris Mannix, Sports Illustrated: 116-112, Marquez
Tim Smith, New York Daily News: 116-112, Marquez
Mike Coppinger, RingTV.com: 115-113, Marquez
Bill Dwyre, Los Angeles Times: 115-113, Marquez
Norm Frauenheim, www.15rounds.com: 115-113, Marquez
Ryan Maquinana, BoxingScene.com/CSNBAYAREA.com: 115-113, Marquez
Lance Pugmire, Los Angeles Times: 115-113, Marquez
Bob Velin, USA Today: 115-113, Marquez
George Willis, New York Post: 115-113, Marquez
Jerry Izenberg, Philadelphia Inquirer: 115-114, Marquez
Sean Sullivan, Boxing Digest: 115-114, Manny Pacquiao
Steve Carp, Las Vegas Review-Journal: 114-114
Tim Dahlberg, Associated Press: 114-114
Bryan Graham, Sports Illustrated: 114-114
Kevin Iole, Yahoo!Sports: 114-114
Kieran Mulvaney, ESPN.com/Reuters: 114-114
Dan Rafael, ESPN.com: 114-114
Rick Reeno, BoxingScene.com: 114-114

Marquez win: 12
Pacquaio win: 1
Draw: 7

Steve Kim: 115-113 Marquez
Gabriel Montoya: 116-112 Marquez
Thomas Hauser: 115-114 Marquez

15-1-7

by Strongback Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:29 pm

Taking the average of the journalists scorecards it make it a 1 or 2 round win for Marquez. I see that as more realistic.

Even rounds go to the champ as he was pushing forward.

I think it was hard for neutrals to watch the fight and not want the underdog JMM to do well.

by Scottrf Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:30 pm

Strongback wrote:Taking the average of the journalists scorecards it make it a 1 or 2 round win for Marquez. I see that as more realistic.

Even rounds go to the champ as he was pushing forward.

I think it was hard for neutrals to watch the fight and not want the underdog JMM to do well.

That's not a rule of boxing.

by Commander Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:32 pm

Just saw this yesterday. HBO commentary was rather biased.

Marquez appeared to slow (maybe deliberately due to corner advice) and Manny may have a nicked a few of the later rounds for appearing to do more. Controversial decision that's for sure.

Manny did also look relatively clueless.

by Strongback Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:36 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Strongback wrote:Taking the average of the journalists scorecards it make it a 1 or 2 round win for Marquez. I see that as more realistic.

Even rounds go to the champ as he was pushing forward.

I think it was hard for neutrals to watch the fight and not want the underdog JMM to do well.
That's not a rule of boxing.

For right or wrong the champ has been given even rounds as long as I have been watching boxing unless the contender is the next big cash cow in boxing.

We also know judges don't score rounds even. The aggressor gets the nod in close rounds particularly in America.

I am not saying these things are right but they are the norm. JMM would have known this.

Given the above I see it as a 1 or 2 round fight for JMM.

by Scottrf Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:38 pm

Giving the actual scoring criteria rather than incorrect traditions I saw it as a 7 round fight for JMM.

by School Project Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:40 pm

Spoiler:

Steve Kim: 115-113 Marquez
Gabriel Montoya: 116-112 Marquez
Thomas Hauser: 115-114 Marquez

15-1-7

Good shout Scott.

Maybe we should stick our unbiased scores in another thread along with these?

by Scottrf Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:40 pm

Steve Lillis 116-112 Marquez
Steve Bunce 117-111 Marquez
Steve Collins 118-113 Marquez
Harold Lederman for Pacquiao

by Rowley Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:45 pm

To be honest would take issue with the idea Manny was the aggressor in these rounds, sure he was coming forward but that for me is not the same and Marquez was not backing up excessively or just looking to cover when Manny threw he was meeting him but simply avoiding his shots, but the key for me he was getting his own shots off. Think there is a danger of us over analysing this or trying to understand what does not make sense. Marquez won this fight, Manny was largely ineffective throughout and his body language told us everything you need to know at the final bell.

by BALTIMORA Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:47 pm

Scottrf wrote:Steve Lillis 116-112 Marquez
Steve Bunce 117-111 Marquez
Steve Collins 118-113 Marquez
Harold Lederman for Pacquiao

Spoiler:

by Pedro147 Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:49 pm

http://www.skysports.com/opinion/story/0,,12533_7307815,00.html

This is Wayne McCullogh's review on the fight, I think he calls it pretty well when saying that by the 8th Manny needed a KO/TKO.

by Strongback Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:52 pm

Scottrf wrote:Giving the actual scoring criteria rather than incorrect traditions I saw it as a 7 round fight for JMM.

I watched the fight once without scoring and for a second time trying to be more objective. Like most I was delighted to see JMM doing so well particularly since he wasn't given a chance, by me included.

I have put the the first six rounds under the microscope and 2 are clear JMM rounds, 1 round JMM edged it. The other three rounds are very even but most observers would give them to Manny as he pushed forward and the onus is on the challenger to take the round.

If the rules of football were followed to the letter there would never be 22 players on the pitch at the end of a match.

We can't change what is the norm and standard practice for one fight.

There's no debate on the correct decision, I just think it was closer than others. The average of the journo's cards bears this out.

Life isn't as straight forward as it appears sometimes. We all roll with the punches one way or the other.

by Scottrf Mon 14 Nov 2011, 2:53 pm

Well there's the difference I guess. I try to avoid cliches like take the title from the champion and just score the fight.

by Strongback Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:04 pm

rowley wrote:To be honest would take issue with the idea Manny was the aggressor in these rounds, sure he was coming forward but that for me is not the same and Marquez was not backing up excessively or just looking to cover when Manny threw he was meeting him but simply avoiding his shots, but the key for me he was getting his own shots off. Think there is a danger of us over analysing this or trying to understand what does not make sense. Marquez won this fight, Manny was largely ineffective throughout and his body language told us everything you need to know at the final bell.

While I agree Manny was ineffective he was walking forward and in America this is enough to be seen as the aggressor forcing the fight. There's nothing new in this.

I agree that the scoring system is flawed. How many times have we seen a title fight that started cagily with not of lot of real intent only to see the challenger is already four rounds down. It is the round scoring system used in boxing that allows this to happen. An overall review of the fight without round scoring would throw up many different results in the classic fights of the past.

The thing is in a court of law the judge would ask what is standard practice. What has happened down through the years. I don't think we can overlook tradition for this fight.

by Strongback Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:09 pm

Scottrf wrote:Well there's the difference I guess. I try to avoid cliches like take the title from the champion and just score the fight.

You are of course correct but that's not how it works in boxing. JMM could have put that fight beyond any reasonable doubt if he pushed on and won the last few rounds convincingly. He had Manny where he wanted him.

by Scottrf Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:13 pm

You may be being realistic but you sound more like you’re trying to predict the judges scores than scoring it yourself. The winner shouldn't be dependent on whether there's a title on the line.

by The Galveston Giant Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:25 pm

To be the aggressor surely you have to land punches and not just march forward. Some fighters don't come forward at all.

by BALTIMORA Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:27 pm

Strongback wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Well there's the difference I guess. I try to avoid cliches like take the title from the champion and just score the fight.

You are of course correct but that's not how it works in boxing. JMM could have put that fight beyond any reasonable doubt if he pushed on and won the last few rounds convincingly. He had Manny where he wanted him.

Even 'reasonable doubt' wouldn't have given it to Pacquiao by 116-112.

by Strongback Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:42 pm

Scottrf wrote:You may be being realistic but you sound more like you’re trying to predict the judges scores than scoring it yourself. The winner shouldn't be dependent on whether there's a title on the line.

I am applying what is the norm in boxing judging. In very few situations is the letter of the law truly applied, nor is it in any walk of life although a zero tolerance approach in society seems to be getting adopted more.

The fight should be scored as you set out but that is not going to happen any time soon. There is no precedent in America for giving close rounds to counter punchers especially if they are the challenger. Marquez knows this.

Manny is the p4p No.1 fighter in the world and a cash cow. These things the judges are made very aware of.

Some say a sport that needs judges isn't really a true sport, an accusation often levelled at sports like ice skating. If people don't like sports that can be undermined by bad judging there is always athletics where the winner is never really in doubt.

by Scottrf Mon 14 Nov 2011, 3:46 pm

Fair enough Strongback. I respect your points, I just don’t agree with scoring it that way myself.

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