The Ango-Franco-Saffer Alliance League

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/11/rugby-union-violent-breakaway-premiership

According to the article, "From an English and French clubs' point of view the Heineken Cup is a growing competition but it is essentially controlled by the unions and played by the clubs," said a prominent Premiership club figure. "There are some English and French clubs who do not regard that as an ideal situation. There is also a growing weariness in South Africa with Sanzar [South Africa, New Zealand and Australia Rugby]. They feel they're at a playing disadvantage by constantly having to travel and, despite having more commercial pulling power, do not get a proportionally bigger share of the revenue. They feel South Africa is subsidising Australia and New Zealand, which are relatively small markets."

There are also apparently plans afoot for an 8 team World Club League featuring the best of Pro 12, Top 14, Premiership and SANZAR.

Mark McCafferty who is the chief executive of Premiership Rugby said: "We have ambitious clubs and we'll look to see if we can create these things. Europe has got to continue to be ambitious and push the boundaries. Sometimes we get frustrated about the pace of progress. It has come a long way in a few years but I think it can go even further".

Is it all hot air? What would the ramifications be? Would English and French fans really want to leave the HEC?

There were discussions last season about this sort of stuff, which came to a head over the election of the ERC president. Welsh regions wanted to vote with English and French but WRU vetoed and voted with IRFU/SRU.


As usual this is probably posturing to improve the respective bargaining positions. The English and French clubs want some say in how a club competition is run and SA want a bigger cut of the money from Super XV. By threatening a breakaway both may get what they want. So long as the demands are reasonable that is fair enough.

It's all about shekels

I would have no problem with the English clubs leaving the HEC as long as the competition it was replaced with was decent (a competition with the French and South Africans sounds good). If it got the clubs more money and the standard was as high or higher I'm happy.

Well firstly wouldn't the South African clubs have to travel more to get to Europe? Okay the time zones are the same but still, the seasons would be different. Try to imagine playing to summmer one week and winter the next!

As for the ramifications, the Pro12 would still grow and possibly become a euro league of sorts with imerging nations. Clubs outside of this "Alliance League" would fold straight away due to the lack of money. New Zealand and Australia would soldier on as I think SA will leave at some point to form their own league or this. What this would do for the Heineken Cup I don't know, it might go on as a FA cup kind of thing or stay the same. If it were to stop the Celtic Cup would probably make a come back for the Pro12.

As for the World Club League, when would they play it? The season is full as it is and clubs moan about it the whole time. It is not a bad idea in itself and I like it in princable but timing would be a problem. Munster-Leinster final anyone?

If this ever did happen it would be terrible for English and French international rugby.The clubs would end up in a spending war buying up all the best players they can and forget about developing home grown talent.
This is how soccer lost it's soul and it'll be sad if rugby in these countries goes down that route.

The clubs only care about making more money for themselves and will do any deal with anyone . The unions (in theory) have the broader interests of rugby in mind. So the less power the clubs have the better if you ask me. Money has ruined the soul of soccer in the last 20 years. And if you want to follow the money just look at the American sports to see where it will bring you. Anyone want to watch the Berlin "Leinsters", playing with an entire squad of All Blacks? Neither do I.

I do think a European Super League with conferences might happen. But it's hard to imagine the French giving up their league. They LOVE it. Fabian Pelous said that winning the Top14 meant more to him than winning the World Cup would!

The PRO12 needs to determine European qualification. The top 8 should qualify, not including HC and Amlin winners. The only way 10 PRO12 clubs will qualify therefore is if those competitions are won. This will improve again the HC and give England and France the opportunity to get more clubs in, again if they manage to win the competitions. It will also improve the competativeness of the PRO12.

Feckless Rogue wrote: But it's hard to imagine the French giving up their league. They LOVE it. Fabian Pelous said that winning the Top14 meant more to him than winning the World Cup would!

Easy to say when you have only won one of them

Sounds like a well thought out argument put forward to warn ERC and S15 that the bigger markets want a bigger piece of the pie.

In the long term, this is a very dangerous slope everyone is on. It would make the RUs weaker and the clubs stronger. That can only damage the international game which should always be the pinnacle for any player.


Some practical thoughts if this did happen;
- the French are terrible travellers going to the home nations, imaging how much they would care on away trips to the SH!
- in order to please the markets, SA would effectively have to migrate to a NH season (as England & France are much bigger as combined target markets). This might negatively impact SA for 4Ns (or jimmys-ultra-fab vodacom-fox-steakhouse uber championship).
- the Premier League in England would effectively replace the RFU as the controlling body of english rugby union.
- after the first year, travelling support would fall away to minimal (and with a global recession on, it is a big stretch to ask fans to head from england/france to SA 4-5 times in a season before playoffs start).
- I could go on, but there is probably enough possibility (not probability) in the alliance league to get bigger pieces of the pie for the anglo/french/sa clubs.

Glas a du wrote:The PRO12 needs to determine European qualification. The top 8 should qualify, not including HC and Amlin winners. The only way 10 PRO12 clubs will qualify therefore is if those competitions are won. This will improve again the HC and give England and France the opportunity to get more clubs in, again if they manage to win the competitions. It will also improve the competativeness of the PRO12.

Why?
If this had been implemented last season we would have no Italian team in the Heineken Cup,that would be bad for everybody.Having only the best teams involved isn't the most important thing as I don't see how yet another mid table English or French side would add more to the competition than a developing Italian team.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I don't see how yet another mid table English or French side would add more to the competition than a developing Italian team.

That's the important thing that some people just can't get their heads around. The Heineken Cup is for the benefit of all 6 Unions. That's why it's important to prevent the richest English and French clubs from breaking it up for their own financial gain.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Glas a du wrote:The PRO12 needs to determine European qualification. The top 8 should qualify, not including HC and Amlin winners. The only way 10 PRO12 clubs will qualify therefore is if those competitions are won. This will improve again the HC and give England and France the opportunity to get more clubs in, again if they manage to win the competitions. It will also improve the competativeness of the PRO12.

Why?
If this had been implemented last season we would have no Italian team in the Heineken Cup,that would be bad for everybody.Having only the best teams involved isn't the most important thing as I don't see how yet another mid table English or French side would add more to the competition than a developing Italian team.

I agree, there are aspects of the HC that are not purely financial (keeping teams from Scotland & Italy in the comp has long term european benefits but not short term revenue benefits).

I also think the views that the Pro12 should determine the HC as opposed to each Union being represented in the European competition as another sign of shifting emphasis from an international focus into a pure club revenue approach.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I don't see how yet another mid table English or French side would add more to the competition than a developing Italian team.

That's the important thing that some people just can't get their heads around. The Heineken Cup is for the benefit of all 6 Unions. That's why it's important to prevent the richest English and French clubs from breaking it up for their own financial gain.

Agreed.

However I do not think the issue is necessarily that the clubs want a bigger share of the pot going to England and France (though they probably do) but that they want a say in how the competition is run and a bigger cut of the money that the RFU/FFR receive. For the other 4 countries the Regions/Provinces are virtually owned by the respective Unions - but in France and England the clubs generate the income and the Union gets the bulk of the money.

Personally I would cut the number of teams in the HC to just 4 each from England and France. (To reduce to a 16 team competition).

I think there should be qualifying rounds to the Heineken Cup (with the losers playing in the Amlin). That way you could extend the chance to play in the Heineken Cup to more clubs (and even give some minor European Nations a chance to put a team forward) but have the best teams qualifying. Something like:

4 English clubs, 4 French, 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian, HC winner, Amlin Cup winner qualify (16).

16 teams in the qualifying stages made up of 4 English clubs, 4 French clubs, 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian + 2 (from a pre-qualifying tournament with Georgian/Russian/Spanish/German/Romanian clubs etc).

The 6 Unions are all represented but no-one automatically qualifies (as Scottish and Italian clubs do at the moment).

Back on topic, what would the future of the Six Nations/Rugby Championship be if this tournament went ahead? Would they stay together, or would England, France and South Africa start a tournament together? Would we see the end of tournaments like these and would we just see extended test series take their place?

I would imagine this tournament would take place around about the time that Super Rugby takes place now, as all three countries play rugby at home during this time. So the Six Nations would either have to move or die. I would imagine that English and French domestic seasons would start in August and finish in February, possibly having performance-based qualification* to the "Alliance League" that runs for 3 months (12 weeks or so) from February till May, with Internationals from June to November. The Currie Cup would probably run as it does now.

* possibly wouldn't work as the teams wouldn't have much notice between qualifying for and playing in the Alliance League.

It could seriously change the whole face of global rugby. Not sure if this change would be for the best though. It would for the clubs involved, but perhaps not for the good of the global game.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Glas a du wrote:The PRO12 needs to determine European qualification. The top 8 should qualify, not including HC and Amlin winners. The only way 10 PRO12 clubs will qualify therefore is if those competitions are won. This will improve again the HC and give England and France the opportunity to get more clubs in, again if they manage to win the competitions. It will also improve the competativeness of the PRO12.

Why?
If this had been implemented last season we would have no Italian team in the Heineken Cup,that would be bad for everybody.Having only the best teams involved isn't the most important thing as I don't see how yet another mid table English or French side would add more to the competition than a developing Italian team.

Boo hop, trist iawn, very sad. The Italian sides are not better than mid table English or French sides, but more importantly sides which finish higher than them in the PRO12 don't get to qualify. There is nothing stopping Italians playing in the HC, all they have to do is finish in the top 8 (or 9 or 10) in the PRO12. If they miss out, the still play the Amlin. Further tgey will develop more if put under constant pressure to perform.

Glas a du wrote:

Boo hop, trist iawn, very sad. The Italian sides are not better than mid table English or French sides, but more importantly sides which finish higher than them in the PRO12 don't get to qualify. There is nothing stopping Italians playing in the HC, all they have to do is finish in the top 8 (or 9 or 10) in the PRO12. If they miss out, the still play the Amlin. Further tgey will develop more if put under constant pressure to perform.

It doesn't matter that they aren't better or that teams that finish above them don't qualify,what matters is that Italian fans have 2 teams they can suppoprt in the Heineken Cup.This drums up support,sponsorship and it attracts kids to the game.Italy have the potential to be a real power in the game,it won't happen for 20 years or so but it'll happen quicker if they have teams playing at the top level.
The important thing is that the teams they are fielding are improving,they are no longer an automatic 10 points,both Perpignan and Biarritz have lost to an Italian side in the last 2 years that kind of result goes down in history for the Italian clubs and keeps them going in the bad times.Playing in the Amlin isn't anywhere near the same thing.

I think you are disrespectful to the Italians to assume they won't qualify.

I'm looking at what happened last year as an indicator,of course one of the will qualify eventually and maybe both at some stages but thats nowhere near as good as being there now.

I think I understand the South African point of view here, they are by far the biggest commercial market and therefore generate the vast majority of the income that SANZAR competitions generate, but the SARU & clubs are not getting a proportionate share of the revenue.

Recently we had NZ throwing their weight around at the IRB remonstrating that they were the biggest brand in world rugby and therefore deserved a bigger chunk of the money, or they were taking their toys and going home, thus ruining the 2015 world cup. I see this in the same light.

I think that the SA money push and a world league/cup are seperate issues though...

A World Club Competition would take the best 2 from the Pro12 (that will be Munster & Leinster then), the top 2 from the Jeff, the Top 14 and S15 (Queensland & Hurricanes maybe?)

You would end up with the best from each competition but there would be nationalities who may never qualify to have a team in this competition... Italy? Scotland? South Africa may never get a team into it which would hurt them immensley.

I wouldn't like this to replace the HEC but maybe every 4 years in between RWC?

If this happens it will ruin the HC and potentially the 6N. It will kill off pro rugby in Italy and Scotland and perhaps even Wales and Ireland as all their players will need to play in the competition and it will weaken the national teams and the sport will lose interest as a whole. It will kill the sport, including their breakaway league. Short term gains but huge long term effects.

I dont think the English and French clubs can see how much damage they are doing to their national teams constantly giving into the demands of greedy clubs who want more of everything.

Also If English clubs were winning HC's I dont think they would be saying this.

What I think is far more likely then England and France leaving the HC, is South Africa coming into it.

It would not be good for South Africa to abandon SANZAR. Playing Kiwi's regularly at rugby can only benefit your players. They may make threats but they're just trying to jostle for a better bargaining position. A compromise will always be reached.

The English and French clubs looking for more more control and a bigger slice of the cash is understandable. They're looking out for their own well being. We should listen to their concerns but never allow them to put themselves above the good of the game.

It's hard enough to spread the game beyond its current fanbase. Leaving the likes of Italy, Scotland, Ireland and Wales behind for the financial benefit of a handful of wealthy clubs is a terrible idea. Any new euro league or even global league should involve all the major unions. The NFL is the template.

I love the HEC and want to see it stay.

But if you thought of the 'World League' in the same way as the Cup Winners League (if that is what they call it?) in Soccer then that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing would it?

It could be played along side... but jaysus that's a lot of fixtures & travelling.

Yeah the Heineken Cup is the best rugby competition. Every year your coming up against teams you've never played before or haven't played in years. Teams know less about each other which helps attacking teams. It's more unpredictable than any other competition, and it just never goes stale. There's so much variety.

Why do sky always show the Irish provinces on sky sports, I have a feeling they might pull more viewers, we know they pull bigger crowds, with the exception of maybe the tigers, so I wonder how sky would feel about the whole deal

D24tress wrote:Why do sky always show the Irish provinces on sky sports, I have a feeling they might pull more viewers, we know they pull bigger crowds, with the exception of maybe the tigers, so I wonder how sky would feel about the whole deal

- it gives the pundit team a good weekend on the beer in Ireland
- they highlight non-english teams to an extent as these are teams that won't appear on ESPN, their primary rival in the medium to long term
- they get good viewing figures from Ireland and get good access to the Irish teams & grounds
- those Irish teams are probably playing english teams (again fixtures that won't appear on ESPN), this weekend had Quins and Saints playing Irish provinces
- Munster & Leinster have won recently and are seen to be title threats, bound to drum up interest
- maybe english fans are more open to watching an Irish province than one of their Jeff rivals playing in this comp (don't know how true this might be, to be honest just throwing it out there)

In the end, Sky isn't nationalistic or part of a fairtrade alliance. They are looking to get the maximum return on their investment, and that obviously focuses on the Irish provinces, Jeff teams and one Toulouse/Clermont game each weekend.

Same reason that Champions League games with Barcelona, Madrid, Man United or Bayern Munich will get top billing. They pull the biggest audience.

In rugby Toulouse, Leicester, Munster and Leinster are probably the biggest brands. They have famous players and are successful teams. They get the biggest audience so the games are shown.

ludicrous proposals

as if wales wasnt an enough remote location (no disrespect for my Welsh friends, just that 200kms is already a lot to the average french rugby fan), he would have to go to SA! for a couple of games during the year it would propably be nice (say a final 4 involving SA teams and european ones) but keeping mind that some french teams tend to send B squads when going away (even within france), just imagine who they will send down there! and not even talking about the carbon footprint.

they should concentrate in developping Italian referees so that we see less biaised decisions by anglophones refs against french teams.

bravo Monsieur!

An update in today's Grauniad: Breakaway league or world club cup

What I don't fully understand is that the general level of anti english rhetoric poured out in this forum would suggest that most of the other nations would be quite happy if england did frack off. Now suddenly it's a bad thing and you all want them to stay? You brits are a crazy bunch.

You should treat it NFL style...

Not in any order but....

Conference 1 (Pro12)
Conference 2 (Aviva)
Conference 3 (Top 14)
Conference 4 (Super 15)

Winner of each conference goes into a randomly drawn Semi. Each Semi winner goes into an NFL sytle Superbowl final... ala World Champs.

The winner of each title hosts the final the year afterwards. Only 2 extra fixtures a year for 4 clubs in total. Not too much of a burden really?

Vaden- just to point out us Irish in the Republic of Ireland (And some trapped behind enemey lines ) are not British and calling us such wont do you any good

On your post though I would agree with and would love to happen but these clubs will probably go all or nothing but who knows. Only thing thing is there are play-offs in these competitions already so if this system were to be adopted it might possiblbly be play with 16 team play-off or something like that, money talks.

Irish Curry wrote:just to point out us Irish in the Republic of Ireland (And some trapped behind enemey lines ) are not British.

Ooops! A little bit of politics there!