Tigers V Ulster

First topic message reminder :

Is it too early in the week to start this thread?

Don't care.

My local rugby calendar is clear for the day and I have two tickets for this beauty! The wife and I will be at Welford Road (she likes a bit of Toby) to cheer on the boys and looking forward to a great day.

Bring on the Irish Invasion!

TIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRSSSSSS!

Great to see Leicester grinding out a win, which they have struggled to do all season. A very tight contest, but I predicted that is defences stayed rock solid, that Leicester's pack would grind out the win, and so it proved. Crucially the try for Smith just took Ulster out of bonus point range. All to play for in this pool.

Well done to both sets of fans, as it seemed like a good atmosphere at Welford Road.

Ben Youngs looked sharp & fit when he came on. Good pace & sharp service much more like his old self.

I've been saying it for weeks and weeks Clive. Wallace allows so much more flexibility in our backline. He can play first receiver so Humphreys can attack in wider channels at times. He can read the game well so he creates opportunities for the men around him, and he can kick and pass so its much harder to read what he can do.

I think Nevin Spence is a great outside centre. But we can't compare him at 12 to Wallace; even though he's a better tackler and carrier than Wallace it's about versatility and rugby intelligence.

That said, Tigers gave away so little it may not have even made much difference tonight. They were class- we'd best just acknowledge it. This game may haunt us at the end of the group but I have no regrets really because we didn't leave anything out there. Just outmatched by a cuter side.

Think we can take 'em at Ravenhill though.

Harrison has done really well being thrown into the side these last few weeks, but Youngs just adds a bit more class. We looked more alive with him on the pitch. And he looks in good nick too which is good, as I feared his injury would still hamper him like Harry Ellis.

I think Nevin Spence is a great outside centre. But we can't compare him at 12 to Wallace; even though he's a better tackler and carrier than Wallace it's about versatility and rugby intelligence.

Spence had a great chance to make a go of it at 12 as he was up against an inexperienced academy centre and then against a fullback out of position. To little foot work, not enough power in contact and as you say he lacks the vision of a proper 12. Unimpressed after the hype. Cave had a cracking game at 13 though.

It's Cave who the Ireland selectors will have an eye on in truth. That said, I think they will be quite conservative and he won't make the team.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I think Nevin Spence is a great outside centre. But we can't compare him at 12 to Wallace; even though he's a better tackler and carrier than Wallace it's about versatility and rugby intelligence.

Spence had a great chance to make a go of it at 12 as he was up against an inexperienced academy centre and then against a fullback out of position. To little foot work, not enough power in contact and as you say he lacks the vision of a proper 12. Unimpressed after the hype. Cave had a cracking game at 13 though.

Well Spence has been poor this season at 12, so I didn't expect him to play well. He was great last season however where he played 13. Solution? Have him challenge Cave for the 13 shirt, use Wallace or Marshall to play 12.

Still trawling the internet looking for things to get offended by? Please, please. Trying to talk some rugby here.

Well done to the Tigers!

Spence did fine at 12. Ulster were undone by Humphreys's inconsistency and McLaughlin's stubbornness in picking Danielli at 15.

Great game by Marshall at 9 though.

rugbydreamer wrote:Guys, we've been having a great debate here, let's not decend into childish squabbling please. Let's keep any personal niggles out of this. Thanks.

Geez, I just got back home from the office and I see there was squabbling? About Rugby? Perish the thought..........
I was able to stream in the match in the office whilst doing reports (thanks - you know who you are!).
This was a great nut-cutting match. Tiggers with a bit better of play. Tis all.
But Ulster played great. The return match wil be a sizzler.
There is just something about Toby Flood I don't like but can't put my finger on it.

I know, couldn't believe what I was reading dr grey...

I personally really enjoyed the match. Not a try thriller but played with a huge inensity and some of the tackles going in were brutal. A real gritty hard fought performance, just a shame Ulster couldn't stay with leicester right till the end.

Really committed performance from both, but Ulster just lacking a bit of creativity in their backs so couldn't really do anything with the ball they had imo, but considering their injuries, guess that's understandable.

With you, Dream. Good call.

Agree, was a real intense match. Fairly significant injuries on both sides, so maybe that took the cutting edge just a tad on both sides. But was great entertainment.

Did you get the feeling that Will Greenwood was just a bit too emotional, a little too effusive, and just a bit in love today?

ha Will Greenwood is always like that!

He was better then the guy commentating with Barnes for the Ospreys match anyway....now that was just dreadful!

Reckon this match really came down to the options on the bench. Tigers had the likes of Castro and Youngs to bring on , and Youngs especially made a huge difference.

Thought Marshall (I think taht was him, the Ulster scrum half?) had a really good game though. Not ever really noticed him before but thought he was brilliant.

We are really missing our centres... And another one bit the dust tonight with Forsyth picking up a suspected minor break (ankle/leg?).

Sir William Of Twelvetrees is expected to be back next week though thankfully, and (Thank heavens!) Manu is due to be fit for the Clermont double header.

A little bit in love

I think you've nailed Sky Sports in one there man.

rugbydreamer wrote:Thought Marshall (I think taht was him, the Ulster scrum half?) had a really good game though. Not ever really noticed him before but thought he was brilliant.

I've noticed him for all the wrong reasons this season- and he just played the best game of his career there tonight. I didn't think he had it in him, I really didn't. Massive kudos are due to him. Brilliant.

The Scarlets scrum halfs did the same to me yesterday Notch, really didn't think either would play that well and they were both great!

Marshall was really, really good though, got you out of some really tricky situations and thought his service was excellent. Now you know what he's capable of, he just needs to play at this level more often.

Yeah, I know that's Greenwood's style. But he was just a bit too, too, well just too Greenwood today. "ooooohhhh, I just loooove the way Ulster moves that pile".

That said, he is one of the best commentators we have, and no real complaints. We could have the sleep enhancing group who broadcast the Cardiff-Irish match yesterday.

The defensive intensity was immense today from both sides. In the first half the pinpoint garryowens and amazing chasing really had us under pressure. Thankfully unlike Saints yesterday we did not buckle and give up the sort of mistakes that concede tries.

In the second half it felt as if Ulster's intensity just dropped a little, and Tigers had a lot more front foot ball. Sadly we lacked the guile to make pressure count, and again Tuilagi's hands were suspect. Ben Youngs made a huge difference. He was sharp, his service was fast and flat - lets hope he is back to his best.

For those watching on TV - in the first half Tuilagi was worked into space - he bumped off his opposite number and was haring down the wing till what looked like a head high cover tackle from Humphreys. It did not look especially physical but did look head high and should have been a penalty. Was it?

Oh and talking about Humphreys - when did he start knocking the ball over from his own half? With us he had a 40m range.

Back to the group. Denying Ulster an LBP was crucial. Now we need to get more points from the double header with Clermont than they do - which would set up the Ravenhill match quite nicely. (Please lord do not let it be a Friday night game).

This group will go all the way down to the wire I suspect.

Oh and that is the only result I have managed to predict spot on in Sportsguru

Missed the game but I heard Humh had a bit of a nightmare of a second half and that we missed wallace. Did it ever look like we could get a bonus point out of it?

There was only 3 points in it for most of the second half - so yes an LBP looked possible.

However as someone said earlier (Notch?) the scoreline was a fair reflection.

It was pretty even all the way through, but Leicester just pulled away in the second half. Just had that extra dog about them. Ulster will think they perhaps should have got a LBP.

When Ian Humphries missed that shot at goal to go 12-12, that was the turning point in the match. Leciester just up the pressure and the result was a win fir the Tigers.

Great to see youngs back on the field and playing well.

LondonTiger wrote:Oh and talking about Humphreys - when did he start knocking the ball over from his own half? With us he had a 40m range.

He's been doing it a fair few times over tha last few seasons, and Pienaar his far share too. Maybe its the kicking competition thats helped. Sadly though, like tonight, he quite often misses kicks that seem a lot easier!

Also, agreed, the tackle by humph was high. But then sure the ref said trimble knocked a ball on one time when it clearly went back. Thats rugby for you!

Watching a replay of the match now. I thought the referee Poite had a pretty good match. Since they has been little mention of him at all, I can assume everyone agrees? I ask because I don't recall any recent comment about a referee having a good match?

A few dodgy calls here and there, but who doesn't now?! Generally a good game. He's probably one of the best refs out there.

doctor_grey wrote:Watching a replay of the match now. I thought the referee Poite had a pretty good match. Since they has been little mention of him at all, I can assume everyone agrees? I ask because I don't recall any recent comment about a referee having a good match?

Hi, was at the match last night so this is first chance I have had to post. I haven't seen the replays yet but what I can tell you from being there is that you don't see quite as much detail as you think!

Regarding Poite (and with my one eyed tiger goggles on) I can only think of 3 questionable calls. Twice he pinged Tigers in the scrum whilst we were going forward and marching Ulster backwards. Even the Ulster boys I was stood talking too in the Crumbie were not sure what they were for. And there was 1 incident was Ferris was blocking the channel, wrong side as usual pretending he couldn't get out of the way, Ulster were hands in the ruck and scooped the ball out of the back and Poite waved play on. Again the Ulstermen around me were expecting to be pinged and were surprised when they got away with it.

But that is 3 possibles out of 100's of decisions on the night he got right. Good performance I thought.

Devestating result for Ulster. It will take a miracle for us to qualify now I think.

The Tigers were pretty poor in the 1st half and at half time the game looked there for the taking. Unfortunately the Tigers found another gear in the 2nd half and we committed far too many individual errors. To not even get a bonus point is massively disappointing.

Both sides were pretty poor I thought and I can see Clermont topping this group comfortably.

Anyone know where I can watch this game? The bar owner insisted on having the Toulouse Connacht game on the tv and wouldn't change it.

Only saw the 2nd half but i was really disappointed (but not surprised) by our back play. I thought Nevin Spence did really well defensively but he just isnt a 12. Made some hard yards but not a viable option and too easy to defend against at this level at 12.

In fairness to Paul Marshall he was good and i am as big a critic of his as anyone.
Danielli at 15 continues to baffle me. I think Cave got the ball to him in a bit space at one stage and rather than attack the line he stuttered, skipped back into traffic and allowed Leicester to slow the ball down. The game was screaming out for D'arcy to attack the line with a bit of pace something which SD doesnt have anymore. Great servant but time to take a back seat.

as much as i like him we will not win anything with iHumph at 10. The missed kick and then the missed touch defined the game. He could have been faultless for the rest of it but thats a 10 point swing (or 8 as it was unconverted). Jackson must see significant gametime in the new year (preferably between Pienaar and Paddy)

I feel genuinely sorry for the pack because i thought they were excellent. I cant recall an Ulster pack competing so well away from home to a team of Leicesters calibre before. Lineout stats were excellent and leicester only seemed to get on top of the scrum at the end. Rory Best is up there with DuPlessis on current form. Exceptional. I also thought Wannenburg had a good game and again i have the commend the lineout as Leicester have a phenomenal set piece.

Congrats Leicester on a well deserved win. Ulster now need 10 points from aironi or else it is over.

Regarding Poite (and with my one eyed tiger goggles on) I can only think of 3 questionable calls. Twice he pinged Tigers in the scrum whilst we were going forward and marching Ulster backwards.

The one in the first half against Marcos was a strange one but the penalty against Boris following the Ayerza kick and youngs chase was correct. Stanko never got a decent bind and slipped which dragged his side down. A poor mistake but it was his first action off of the bench so maybe he was caught cold.

Stand we were actually better in the 1st half.

One positive was that we fronted up physically and were able to match Leicester on that front. At half time the game looked their for the taking but unfortunately it was the tigers who upped their game in the 2nd half and we fell away.

We really look clueless at times with the ball and I think questions need to be asked about McLaughlin. We just don't seem to have gameplan other than to use Ferris,Wannenburg, Touhy etc trucking it up. The pack are laying a decent platform but we aren't capitalising due to poor decision making and execution.

Spence looked rusty and struggled to have any impact in attack. Gilroy is wasting away on the wing and Danielli makes Luke Fitzgerald look like serge Blanco at fullback. That 3 shambolic performances at 15 in a row from him. Trimble tried hard but there is just no creativity there.

I don't really know were we go from here. The players are there but the gameplan doesn't seem to be.

Just wanted to say thanks to the Tigers fans. Great respect from all we met.
Had a couple of pints in The Counting House before the game. Atmosphere was great.

Looking forward to having you guys at Ravenhill in January.

Have to say good win for Tigers, ok we were hoping for a win or maybe a LBP, but honestly to go to welford road in a H-cup game and keep the game in the balance untill the last 15 minues, (tigers not even ever being ahead untill well into the second half) shows we have ccome a long way , but still have further to travel.

Have to agree with Rodders about McLaughlin, while he is doing a good job, he isn't going a great job, and maybe its time to look at someone else to bring us that last bit forward. Maybe he's taken us as far as he can.

I don't recon EoS is the answer , as if hiring an Irish coach, it would be with a view to building to the Irish job, EoS won't get a second chance at that so, it'll be an overseas or up and coming irish coach (can't think of any).

Danielli fustrates me, why play a winger at fullback, when he isn't doing a good job, when you have a dicated fullback on the bench?

Really need a new backs coach, or even if the IRFU, had the IRFU backs coach (think its kiss at Leinster) come up and spend some time with them.

According to the BT Pienaar could be back on Friday against Glasgow.

That would be a big boost but I wonder if it should be at Humphreys expense and not Marshalls, who has been playing the best rugby of his career.

I know it won't happen but what do people think of Pienaar playing 10?

I can't believe the knee jerk reaction of some of you. McLaughlin has done a very good job. We went to Welford Road with a team missing four world cup players and gave a reasonable account. In spite of the hype about good young players we do lack strength in depth. I wasn't surprised that we didn't use our bench that much on Saturday.
At the minute my biggest frustration is with our out-half. He is just not consistent enough at the top level. Difficult as it might be, maybe his brother should be targeting that position for next season. I don't think Jackson or McKinney are anywhere near ready to take on the role of playmaker just yet.
I am in agreement though regarding the quality of our specialist coaching staff and should be looking at bringing in a quality SH backs coach.

I'm pretty sure Pienaar played 10 for SA for a while.. I think he is probably a better 9 and 10 than either Marshall or Humphreys. More solid at least.

roddersm wrote:According to the BT Pienaar could be back on Friday against Glasgow.

That would be a big boost but I wonder if it should be at Humphreys expense and not Marshalls, who has been playing the best rugby of his career.

I know it won't happen but what do people think of Pienaar playing 10?

Ha Rodders, back to square one here. I was saying the same when Marshal was on great form when Pienaar first arrived.

No doubt you will get shot down.

The arguments will come on that Ruan had previously agreed he wouldn't be an out-half before signing a contract. but at the end of the day hes paid to do a job, his boss decides what that job entails.

It might be worth a shot for one week just to kick humph up the bum.

But if we want Ruan to extend his contract, we should probably try not to annoy him!

I'm not sure it is a knee-jerk reaction.. 3 matches in a row the likes of Danielli has been selected at full-back and hasn't performed, and our back play all season has been lack-lustre. I agree with a lot of what has been said.

Rodders, just saw your post there. Funnily enough I was thinking the same thing.
Why wouldn't it happen? It was a tactic used last season a few times, albeit from the bench. Given Marshall's improvement over the last couple of games it might be worth trying, especially in the Rabo.

On the last point rodders i would be inclined to go with Pienaar, Jackson against glasgow. If Marshall is starting i would stick with Humph.

Im not sure McLaughlin is the coach i would target. Im not sure what roles Doak and Jonny Bell have so i could be wrong but we need a backs coach who is not from the province. This is the role i wouldnt mind for EoS but i am not sure he would take it preferring the head coach role.

Spence to my mind isnt developing as a player and it is up to the coaches to make sure he does. I dont think they can get the best out of our youngsters and we cant afford that with the batch we have coming through. I have said it before but i think the reason D'arcy is so potent in attack and picks such good lines is due to the fact that he was coached in the SH for most of his life

Rava its not a knee jerk reaction about McLaughlin. Our attacking play has been pants for two seasons. We are far too reliant on individual brilliance in scoring our tries and it has papered over the cracks a bit.

Yes their have been some fantastic attacking displays from us but they are few and far between and rarely against the top sides.

The most frustrating thing about it to me is we do have talented and creative/attack minded backs. For example, Gilroy has a real eye for the line, but he has been wasted this season.

Rava wrote:Rodders, just saw your post there. Funnily enough I was thinking the same thing.
Why wouldn't it happen? It was a tactic used last season a few times, albeit from the bench. Given Marshall's improvement over the last couple of games it might be worth trying, especially in the Rabo.

Yeah I think form should be rewarded and Marshall is playing well.

IHumph is blowing hot and cold right now. He always does but there's too much cold and not enough hot from him right now, at least compared to last season.

I think Humphries is a bit of a scape goat for you Ulster fans. The Ulster backline never looked threatening and the game plan of rumbling it up for the forwards was always a risky one when playing against a pretty massive Tigers front five (with pretty massive replacements). His long range kicking kept you in the game and his fizzing passes got your backs running nice and flat. The issues were that there wasn't often the right support in place to utilise a half break and that Tigers found it to easy to pick out the breakdowns where Ulster would be fragile. The Ayerza steal and kick was a perfect example of this.

Humphries was also limping around quite a bit before going off so it might well be the case a knock was limiting his kicking ability in the second half. The miss from in front of the posts and the missed touch finder were the only real mistakes he made.