Tigers V Ulster

First topic message reminder :

Is it too early in the week to start this thread?

Don't care.

My local rugby calendar is clear for the day and I have two tickets for this beauty! The wife and I will be at Welford Road (she likes a bit of Toby) to cheer on the boys and looking forward to a great day.

Bring on the Irish Invasion!

TIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRSSSSSS!

Pienaar hasn't ever said he won't play at 10, just that when he signed he was signed as a 9.

He'd be happy to play there for the good of the team, as when signed I'm sure he asked will he play 9 or 10 and they said "9 we have Humph and wallace as cover, and a rated up and coming player young outhalf, you may be needed there at times but we want you primarily as scrum half, and occasional outhalf" and I'd say he was happy enough with that.

Ulster have never been planning to use him as our outhalf, and I'd say he respects that, not thinking "hey they signed me as scrum half and are playing me outhalf, have I been duped?"

Maybe I am being harsh on McLaughlin, but maybe he ahs taken us as far as he can. We all agree that we at least need a new backs coach, and we said the same last year, is it not the Head coaches role to appoint additional coachs, maybe there wasn't the funds for it and we blame D Humph but I feel something is missing from management. Maybe just a little SH flair is needed in the backs.

Good to see Youngs looking fully fit for once, what a contrast between that cameo and his England play. He was a lot quicker around the fringes and his passing a lot crisper, still not up to full steam though.

Other then that though I still think Tigers need some out and out pace on at least one of the flanks. Imagine Tigers with Wade on one wing and Tuilagi on the other.

I didn't see the match, but I did hear some analysis on the radio about Ulster. Victor Costelloe (I think) said the problem with Ulster was that they played as individuals and that they lacked leadership (mentioned Muller to be the one at fault for this).

Rava - IMO the coaching staff especially McLaughlin needs to be questioned.

Since the forwards returned from the RWC, the Ulster pack has been great, but the backs haven't been able to do anything with the plentiful possession they have had. Obviously having the higher quality of player is a big boost but I wonder how much the transformation has been due to Muller who is also the supposed forwards coach. Guys like Henry and Wannenburg have been playing much better than they were before he returned.
I also wonder how much of a difference Pienaar makes to the back play? He plays the opportunity in front of him rather than the 'rugby by numbers' we've been getting in the back division. That undoubtedly suits baby Humph and the other backs, especially someone like D'Arcy who also makes good spur of the moment decisions about when to join the line. It's also why I especially like Pienaar at scrum half as he gets to make the first decision - and take it away from Humphreys.
IMO it is no accident that Cave and Trimble have looked Ulster's best backs as they are a bit older and probably trust their own judgement rather than guys like Spence and Gilroy who probably do exactly as they're told.

So when Ulster are successful how much is down to the players and how much to the coaches? Obviously McL selects the team and his continued persistence trying to hammer the square Danielli peg into the round fullback hole is long past a joke. The confident strides that D'Arcy made last year have all been undermined by his telling contribution against Clermont going totally unrewarded.
Then there is McL's ambivalence to Faloon. He is frozen out completely by McComish and then leapfrogs him to the HEC bench?
Humphreys is sublime and ridiculous - often in the same move. High risk passes by their nature won't all come off - it makes for exciting rugby but inconsistency wins nothing. Jackson and McKinney need to be getting more gametime and Jackson has shown with the limited time he has had that he is ready for the step up.

If McL is giving any coaching it is either falling on deaf ears or just plain wrong. I don't see Ulster with any game strategies other than the players trying their hearts out.

Sin é wrote:I didn't see the match, but I did hear some analysis on the radio about Ulster. Victor Costelloe (I think) said the problem with Ulster was that they played as individuals and that they lacked leadership (mentioned Muller to be the one at fault for this).

No I don't think so sin. Maybe tactical leadership in the 8-12 axis maybe. I wouldn't point the finger at Muller or Best who were excellent as were the pack generally.

I think just generally we don't seem very good with the ball and it was the same last week. Danielli at 15 doesn't help. Ihumph was excellent at times but then made a few errors at key times.

I don't think there is too much wrong but we need to learn how to take our chances in these games and do it quickly.

Good points stand.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:I didn't see the match, but I did hear some analysis on the radio about Ulster. Victor Costelloe (I think) said the problem with Ulster was that they played as individuals and that they lacked leadership (mentioned Muller to be the one at fault for this).

No I don't think so sin. Maybe tactical leadership in the 8-12 axis maybe. I wouldn't point the finger at Muller or Best who were excellent as were the pack generally.

I think just generally we don't seem very good with the ball and it was the same last week. Danielli at 15 doesn't help. Ihumph was excellent at times but then made a few errors at key times.

I don't think there is too much wrong but we need to learn how to take our chances in these games and do it quickly.

Its a very young, inexperienced backline - maybe the reason Danielli is there is because of his experience. Ian Keatly might be a better outhalf than Ronan O'Gara, but Keatley wouldn't bring quarter the experience & confidence to the backs as O'Gara does.

Where did you watch the game rodders

Sin i think Aukster makes the point. The Ulster pack was a joke before muller and Best returned. They have since been outstanding. THe issue is coaching imo specifically our backs coaching.

AUkster makes some good points and rodders summed it up well. We arent very good with the ball

Standulstermen wrote:Where did you watch the game rodders

Hey stand sorry didn't make it to the taphouse in the end. Actually went to portrush as the playhouse there had it advertised. It ended up quite a strange experience, we were about the only one's there so think I will go to the tap in future even if its further.

Sin if you had been watching Danielli's displays at fullback I don't think you'd be comparing him to rog.

roddersm wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Where did you watch the game rodders

Hey stand sorry didn't make it to the taphouse in the end. Actually went to portrush as the playhouse there had it advertised. It ended up quite a strange experience, we were about the only one's there so think I will go to the tap in future even if its further.

Sin if you had been watching Danielli's displays at fullback I don't think you'd be comparing him to rog.

No worries rodders. We got a decent number in the bar in the end. really the first game we could show this season what with so many of the games not being on tv. bodes well for the future hopefully

Standulstermen wrote:Sin i think Aukster makes the point. The Ulster pack was a joke before muller and Best returned. They have since been outstanding. THe issue is coaching imo specifically our backs coaching.

AUkster makes some good points and rodders summed it up well. We arent very good with the ball

So, who is the leader/talker in the backs? Who is the one who is telling them where to be and making sure that they are not losing concentration. Howlett does it a lot for Munster as well.

Sin e i'd say it's paddy Wallace

Excellent point Sin. It really should be humph. Cave runs the defence but we do miss paddy wallace and pienaar. Thats why i think luke marshall will be so important as well.

Danielli may well be a leader with experience but his experience is that of a winger and not a 15 which is painfully obvious. His lack of pace is really sad to watch aswell

Would anyone say we are missing a good footballing no8 as well? For me that 8-12 axis defines how you play the game. Wannenburg has been playing well but I don't know if he's the controlling influence we need at 8.

Our running lines are not good either and to me that stems from the coaching.

We have ball playing 8 in Diack. Sadly though his physicality just isnt up to it. I think wannenburg has done well. he was certainly very good against leicester. we seemed to have decent ball as well just little invention or notion of what to do with it.

Trimble carried hard, cave broke the line a couple of times and gilroy got through some half tackles when used but after that there was little or no penetration. D'arcy at 15 will help a lot. Paddy back will also help but i do think in 2/3 years we will need jackson and marshall fulfilling their potential to take us to the next level

Excellent point Sin. It really should be humph. Cave runs the defence but we do miss paddy wallace and pienaar.

Not necessarily. It's not real suprise that Tigers are starting to look more organised in defence now that Murphy is back in the fold shouting instructions and last season Flood was often quick to point to Allen as the basis for the majority of his good performances. Playing 10 it's hard to focus on everything around you especially if you are playing flat, concentrating on what the 9 is doing and where the opposition defence is takes up 90% of your concentration. Life becomes a lot easier if your experienced backs are talking to you and organising the line outside.

Unless Trimble is going to shout instructions (and despite his recently excellent form he isnt that type of player) then i cant see who is supposed to do it.

Danielli is a winger trying to focus on playing 13, Cave is 24 and runs the defence, gilrou is 20, spence 21 and marshall is our back up 9. It reall had to be him. Humph is comfortably our best 10 at present but there comes a time when we will have to gamble on the player jackson can become.

For me that time has come in the pro12 when we need to give Jackson gametime with the 1st choice team.

Stand I'm not saying Pedre isn't playing well. Hes not really the all round package at 8 though like a Heaslip or Parisse. He doesn't create a lot or provide much threat off the back of the scrum.

In terms of our attacking play we seem to just rush too much and try and go wide too early rather than just being patient and building pressure through multiphase attacks. Marshall and IHumph just seem too keen to go wide when its not on.

We have plenty of good attacking player we just don't utilise them right.

I think Humph snr will evaluate whether we keep pedrie or go for someone better in the new year rodders. I still think we lack a top class 7 more than anything ( in saying that i think Henry had tackle stats of 14/0 on scrum.com at the weekend). It depends who is available and who we can get but i wouldnt overly disagree.

If we can get a top class replacement for pedrie then great. If not i think he has still been a good signing. As i hinted above the player i am most frustrated with is Diack

The frustrating thing stand is that there isn't too much wrong. It's the small margins again, just like the Saints game last year.

The fundementals are there now: the scrum, the lineout, the physicality. It just descision making, execution and individual errors at key times.

You just can't drop points in this competition and hope to do well.

Yeah we have to remember last season everything was vastly improved but our set piece was letting us down. This year our set piece is spot on, but our attacking flair has gone awol somewhat. Paddy is the key to that.

Tigers could well be back up to a first choice XV come the return match at Ravenhill, will Ulster have what it takes to win that one?

Clive I actually think D'arcy is more key to our attack than Paddy. Pienaar too obviously and perhaps even Faloon.

I'm not saying Paddy isn't a factor but even last week against Clermont our back play was very poor.

I think having a fullback joining the line and a 7 who keeps the ball alive really makes a big difference. Marshall is playing well but perhaps Pienaar reads the game better.

Everything is too predictable at the minute and perhaps we need to go back to basics and play territory at times.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
The one in the first half against Marcos was a strange one but the penalty against Boris following the Ayerza kick and youngs chase was correct.

Absolutely loved Ayerza chip & chase!! The crumbie roared with approval at that and we were all cheering Ben on. He looks a lot fitter and made excellent ground from that and was unlucky not to score. The Ulster lads I was talking too were quite surprised by that and one remarked to me "..but he's a prop?". Ulster did well to scramble back and get there first.

Time For Trumpton wrote:Tigers could well be back up to a first choice XV come the return match at Ravenhill, will Ulster have what it takes to win that one?

I'd be reasonably confident of winning that yes. I think we are very hard to beat at Ravenhill. I wouldn't take it for granted of course but I'd be extemely disappointed if we didn't win that one and perhaps deny the Tigers a bonus point at the minimum.

Time For Trumpton wrote:Tigers could well be back up to a first choice XV come the return match at Ravenhill, will Ulster have what it takes to win that one?

So will Ulster - we were missing 4/5 players ourselves and because we don't have the same depth I think our injurues hurt us at least as much as yours hurt you - in truth probably more

maverickmak wrote:
Well done to both sets of fans, as it seemed like a good atmosphere at Welford Road.

The atmosphere was great in the Crumbie as I'm assuming it was in every stand. Good mix of Tigers & Ulster where me & my daughter were stood and much good natured banter was exchanged, compliments to both sides play, one or two rude jokes and a lengthy discussion about a transvestite bar in Northampton!

A great day out and I do feel for Ulster as I think they at least deserved the LBP.

Like others I am starting to get worrying concerns about the quality of our coaching. We are very one dmensional in our back moves.

As for the organizers in the backs - Pienaer, Wallace, Cave and Payne are the 4 players in the squad who talk and organize. 3 of them were injured; Danielli doesn't say boo to a goose and offers nothing in that department.

Hearing very depressing stories about Pienaer. He hasn't signed for next year, he wants to, Ulster are prevaricating. Don't know why.
My guess, and it only that, is they are wondering if the 2 NIQ slots we have available for next year should go to a 7 and a 8 and we go with home grown for 9.
Maybe cost is a factor - realizing the mistake of not having sufficient quality of coaches. I understand we turned down Matt Sexton as a scrum coach because of cost this year. He wanted the job.
Big big call if true

roddersm wrote:Would anyone say we are missing a good footballing no8 as well? For me that 8-12 axis defines how you play the game. Wannenburg has been playing well but I don't know if he's the controlling influence we need at 8.

Our running lines are not good either and to me that stems from the coaching.

Just a couple of quick observations for you...

Spence is pretty good and attacked well but you could see he was unsure of his lines and kept taking route 1 which was fairly easy to defend against and we neutralised your 12/13 axis reasonably well. Humph just had an off day & You need a better full back. Spilling the ball like he did was unforgiveable at this level. Ferris kept getting in the way of the wingers. On at least 2 or 3 occasions, just when you needed some quick hands & pace he popped up inside the winger, took the pass and then trundled sideways into touch shutting down the wingers channel and killing off any chance of a quick attack.

But in general I thought Ulster played well and until the last 20 minutes it really could have gone either way.

Looking forward to the return fixture, although I think you should win that, I'm just hoping we make a fight of it as you did at Welford rd and get away with a LBP.

Good observations Metal Tiger.

Danielli is not a fullback and I think most of us know he's been a weak link. Jared Payne is injured and our coaches seem to favour Danielli ahead or our other specialist fullback D'arcy.

Spence is normally a 13 and has been drafted into 12 due to Wallace injury. He hasn't had any gametime in a few weeks so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

Interesting points on Ferris. I think generally we've not been great at manufacturing space and utilising overlaps. I'm not sure if its the coaches or players or both.

I think Pienaar will make a big difference to our general play.

Interesting about Pienaar Geoff. He's been brilliant but if the coaches have faith in the home grown boys then maybe its wise they prioritise other areas?

I do think coaching is a problem. I know we have few injuries but we are not performing to the sum of our parts. There doesn't seem to be any pattern or consistancy to how we are trying to play either.

Maybe Cave to 12 and Trimble to 13 might give is a bit more experience and leadership in midfield?

So will Ulster - we were missing 4/5 players ourselves and because we don't have the same depth I think our injurues hurt us at least as much as yours hurt you - in truth probably more.

Not sure about that, Tigers backline really didn't function after Forsyth went off. Passing the ball down the line to the winger or having Matt Smith crash ball aren't really HEC class options. We desperately need 1 if not 2 of the five injured centres back (with Twelvetrees, Tait, Manu, Allen and now Forsyth - broken ankle, walking wounded). Ben Youngs only needed 15 minutes to show the difference between a good academy graduate (Harrison) and an international class 9.

Here's hoping everyone is fit and healthy for the return leg, when we should see some running rugby to go with the brute force!

formerly known as Sam wrote:

So will Ulster - we were missing 4/5 players ourselves and because we don't have the same depth I think our injurues hurt us at least as much as yours hurt you - in truth probably more.

Not sure about that, Tigers backline really didn't function after Forsyth went off.

Hmm I think its a pointless debate. Ulster were missing their 1st choice Scrum half, fullback, inside centre and tighthead prop. All key positions.

I don't think it was the reason we didn't get a result as the team we put out was good enough on paper. You play with the players you have and neither side were on top form. The Tigers took their chances and Ulster didn't but I'd imagine both sides will be better come the return leg.

An unfortunate thing for Tigers is that they have Clermont away first. I cant them getting anything from Ravenhill with Pienaar, Wallace and Afoa in the team in fairness. i think they would do well to get a LBP but there is a lot of rugby to be played between now and then.

Geoff
I find it baffling that they would be in any way unsure on Pienaar. quite simply the biggest signing in our history. The only thing i would prioritise up there with re-signing him is getting a quality backs coach to ensure that we give the Spences, Marshall, Gilroys and jacksons every chance of fulfilling their potential. That is how i think we should judge the Ulster set up. If these young lads dont make it because of poor attitude, lack of focus etc then fair enough but if it comes down to poor coaching then the whole set up will have failed.

Im not sure on McLaughlin but i think the issue is too many coaches with too narrow an experience to call upon. Did Doak, bell, longwell etc ever play outside of Ulster? even Mark mcCall was poor until he went away and gained experience elsewhere. We need a broader range of experiences from our coaches imo.

I think squad management and rotation is in danger of becoming an issue. That is were you need an experienced coach I think, one who is used to big squads and balancing player development with getting results.

We need to keep the young guys hungary and motivated. Spence is a fantastic talent, D'arcy and Whitten too and thats without even thinking about Luke Marshall and Jackson etc. I'm not sure any of these guys are getting the gametime they need (injuries not withstanding).

One thing I love about Leinster is that every player who comes in just slots into the same systems and plays the same way.

Rodders you only have to look at the difference between the coaching staff concerned.

McCall's problem was he was not suported by the blazers rather than a lack of coaching skills. This led to anarchy in the dressing room and rampant player power.

We seem to prefer jobs for the boys with respect to coaches rather than getting in people who can make a difference. I can see another lost generation due to poor player managment.

Already of the current crop I would be leaving if my name was Faloon, Cochrane or Porter - why stay at Ulster ?

The Faloon issue puzzles me and i think there must have been more here than meets the eye. you cant simply drop a guy from your squad for 3 pro 12 games and bring him back for the heineken cup for no reason. There must have been something going on.

Its up to Humph Snr and Logan to do something about it. They can either enjoy their job, go to some nice awards doo's and have a good time with the same old faces they are comfortable with or else they can actually leave an impression and demand a standard of excellence with Ulster rugby that should be the benchmark for all future regimes/Directors.

If (as geoff mentioned) we lose this generation of players then im sorry but that to me would be Humph snr's legacy with Ulster (to my mind anyway). Like Rodders said though i dont see too much wrong.

My instinct would be to replace danielli with a young academy talent (Gaston/Nelson etc) and try and get a top quality backrow for Wannenburg. That would free up an NIQ salary and i would go looking for coaches with whatever i could scrape together.

To be honest I just can't even see the point of signing more players until we start getting the most out of the ones we have. Theres a whole load of talented players twiddling their thumbs and playing in the Ravens.

IHumph seems to be doing a great job at attracting players but on the ground something doesn't appear to be quite right with the tactics, selection, on field execution etc.

Moral seems to be pretty high though which is great.

Generally we are doing well but with the squad we have now you expect a bit more in terms or results and performance. The odd big performance followed by 3 weeks of dirge and plucky defeats isn't good enough anymore.

Stand it seems probable it is only 4NIQ next year.

Thats Afoa, Muller and 2 for backrow and 9 - mix to be decided

Is there any more news with regard to Terblanche. I'm sure his influence with the younger guys would be quite useful from a coaching perspective. As he is virtually retired from playing he might be interested in making a name for himself as a specialist coach.

What about Payne? Is it 4 NIQ +1 Project?

Rodders

backrow is a position in which we dont have the players coming through. If as geoff has said the mix is 4/1 NIQ/project we need a backrow be it wanneburg or an upgrade on him. Danielli can be replaced with homegrown players as we seem to be producing backs.

Stand yes I agree. My point was a general one. I think the bulk of the personnel are there but we aren't getting the most out of them hence I think coaching is a bigger factor in terms of kicking on than signing more players.

I don't mean we shouldn't sign anyone.

Danielli is drain in the side right now. Theres a whole load of talented 3/4's (Spence, Gaston, D'arcy, Whitten) getting hardly any gametime whilst he's contributing very little.

I do think a specialist no8 would help but we have good backrowers just wasting away in Faloon and Diack. A back rower is a luxury I think at this point but I wouldn't complain if we signed someone else.

Ditto at half back but I'd rather see Porter, Jackson etc get a bit more chances in the Rabo first.

It is indeed 4+1

Backrow we are short of numbers.

- Nobody coming through the ranks
- MCormish and Diack are perceived as not being good enough for anything other than cover.
- Ferris is always going to miss a lot of games
- That leaves 2 IQ players (Henry, Faloon) and a NIQ player (Wannenburg)

It is why we prevaricating on Pienaer as there seems to be consideration of getting 2 NIQ backrowers (if Wannenburg leaves). A decent IQ backrower from down south would make a big difference at it would allow us to keep Pienaer for certain.

Just ask yourself where we would be if Henry was injured during the 6N - our backrow would be very weak

Honestly don't see why we would sign 2 new backrowers when we have the likes of Diack and Faloon, who have both been completely mistreated in my opinion. I don't think Wannenburg is good enough personally and I prefer Diack. Diack is a more all around player. Also Faloon should start imo, with Henry playing 8 and Diack coming off the bench.

Also, we already have shown a lack of trust in our young players, as the likes of D'Arcy loses out to Payne, Danielli and Terblanche when he comes over. That must be a blow to his confidence, that Ulster seem to be doing everything they can to keep him out of the team. And that is what they do seem to be doing, as he shown what he could do when he did come off the bench yet received no reward.

If we do sign a backrow (no point in signing 2 firstly imo) we should be looking to get one of the Leinster players. Ruddock or Ryan. An IQ player.

geoff998rugby wrote:It is indeed 4+1

Just ask yourself where we would be if Henry was injured during the 6N - our backrow would be very weak

Geoff I accept that but my point is that Faloon, McComish and Diack are hardly playing. Touhy can cover blindside and Barker seems to have vanished too.

Diack was good enough to invest 3 seasons in to become IQ. Now hes in the Ravens?

We are not utilising our current resources very well even taking into account Ferris not playing a lot.