State of the Provinces - HC Round 1.

Connacht - Desperately unlucky on Friday. I was expecting to see a good performance but ultimatley Quins would pull away to an easy victory. Anything but. They were well in control for most of the second half and to add insult to injury didnt even get a lbp.
Player(s) to watch out for - Griffin and McSherry in midfield. Griffin especially. Is he the next BOD. Of the possible replacement OCs on display over the weekend he stood out the most for me. Muldoon also played extremely well as did Gavin Duffy.
Made a lot of people sit up and take notice. Only problem for them now are that Toulouse and Gloucester will be ready for them. Will still cause problems at home and will expect them to trouble all three visitors. A gale force and driving rain for Toulouse would be an interesting spectacle.

Ulster - Great win for Ulster after being under the cosh in the first half they really put it up to ASM in the second. Ferris was immense as usual but how long are his knees going to hold out....Also lets get an ageing springbok to fill in at full back cause we dont have anyone anygood.....er/oops
Players to watch out for - Darcy was impressive when he came on. Centres were sound. Forwards outstanding - Henry and Ferris.
Necessary win in a tough group with Leicester as well and Aironi will not be a pushover in terms of bonus points. Will need to get a result at Leicester or ASM if they are to progress and build on last year. Will they do it....keep them knees on ice...

Leinster - A draw but could have been more. In the first half they looked out of it but for the last 30 mins there was only one team in it and they should probably have won. Very assured and the team to beat in this group. This was probably their hardest away game in the group however Bath and Glasgow could cause them problems....would expect them to top the group without too much difficulty.
Players to watch out for - Luke Fitz was very good but McFadden got skinned on the outside again (alá the Russian try in the WC). SOB has become Elsomesque in his importance. Heaslip played better than recently but still a lot to do to get back to last years form. Sexton great kicking, and cool head

Munster - A team in transition for sure. The game reminded me of some of the older HC pool games when teams originally came to TP and were confident of getting a win...ie Saracens or Wasps back in the day. But got a bit of a surprise from players they knew nothing about. Munster is and always has been about the collective (including the crowd )and that was proven again on Sat. Still a lot to do to convince but a lot of errors will give Foley and McGahan lots to work with.
Players to watch out for - D Ryan and POM - outstanding but should be played at 7. TOL looked very sharp when he came on and orchestrated the last phase along with DOC and Leamy. ROG - what can you say.
A work in progress. I think if this bunch get to a QF it will be a big acheivement and they will cause problems for any team. At the moment though would not like to be going to Northampton looking for a win.

Ireland watch...
Up - Luke Fitz, TOL, D Ryan
Ones to Watch (bolters) - Griffin, POM, Cave.
Outside bets but with enhanced chances - Muldoon..

Its a bit early to tell but it has confirmed that POM, Donnacav2 and Cave should be in the Ireland squad. If Fitz, Griffen and TOL play like that they should be there too. Some good young players at Connacht as well.

On a side note Hurley played well for Munster in Earls's absence.

Good assessment DOD. Didn't see the Leinster or Connacht games.

A good weekend overall for the provinces I thought. What about that finish by Munster?! Amazing!

What a crazy run of results,it was like each game and result built up to the crescendo that was Munsters last minute win.

The Munster game reminded me of the old days too. People presumed that when great players like Quinnie and Fla and the like went towards retirement, that Munster would just fade away. But they forgot that the whole original foundation of Munsters success was built on a spirit that is more important than any player, and won't go away. Winning Heineken Cup games is part of Munsters DNA now. They mightn't win back the title just yet but they'll never be beaten easily in Thomond Park.

Question: What do ye think is POM's best position? The fact that he has a 3 letter nickname with an O in the middle suggests to me that he's a future international star. That was McFaddens problem. Why isn't he called O'Fadden?

I thought TOL was awful.

He was giving passes to forwards coming back to try and join the attack instead of forwards going forward.
He did make some good pick and go's and some good half breaks but as a scrumhalf he was very very poor.

Between giving retreating forwards the ball and passing to ROG with one guy outside him I've no idea how Munster managed it.

I'm trying not to be harsh but I was full blown horrified that pass he gave POM, how POM held it I've no idea.

It was POC and Leamy who played the pass to ROG for the attempted drop goal and the drop goal itself.

Can't understand how anyone could think TOL played well as a scrumhalf, as a forward picking and go-ing yes he was good as a scrumhalf it was terrifying!

Apologies for the rant I completely agree with your other points.

Agree on O'Leary. He's not a good scrumhalf. He's a good athlete. But Ugo Monye showed on the Lions tour that a terrific athlete isn't necessarily a good or clever rugby player.

If you are looking for a good Irish scrumhalf this weekend look at Paul Marshall up North. he passed well, snipped the fringes and box kicked well. Also put in some good tackles.

not a million miles away. Still have Cave slightly in pole for the 13 shirt but only because i have seen so little of griffin. i would like to see a few pounds of weight on griffin. nothing drastic but he has the frame to carry it really well.

McFadden looks a wee bit green for me (which he shouldnt be). The way he was levered off the ball for Ouedrago's try by amorosino (i think) wasnt great. Griffin looks very very exciting as does O'Mahoney. Honourable mentions to mcCarthy and Tuohy as well.

If Paul marshall could do that week in week out Ulster would be laughing. Sadly he spends most weeks mistaking his 10 for a harlem globetrotter

He is defenitely an option now though as an impact sub for Pienaar. That was a great performance from him I thought and have been impressed by him in the past.

He's got a lot of energy and gets around the place well.

Kearney had a good game at 15 showed signs of attacking nous he hasn't shown in years

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:If you are looking for a good Irish scrumhalf this weekend look at Paul Marshall up North. he passed well, snipped the fringes and box kicked well. Also put in some good tackles.

On moustache alone, frank Murphy wins hands down! Sterling effort.

DOD I can't fault your synopsis of the provinces but why did you feel the need to have a pop at Ulster re. the "ageing springbok"

Also add Chris Henry to your "outside bets with enhanced chances" list.

I agree Marshall had a good game but I wouldn't even consider him good enough for the Wolfhounds at this stage of his career. He would need to be a lot more consistent than he has been. That said it's great that he's improving, and who knows, maybe in a year or so I could be proved wrong.

Can I also repeat something Gibson said a couple of weeks ago - Rory Best to be the next Ireland captain. The man is an inspiration to all those around him.

Frankies tash has always been spectacular. Rav more an affirmation of how good Darcy was when he came on.

DOD wrote:Frankies tash has always been spectacular. Rav more an affirmation of how good Darcy was when he came on.

D'Arcy's work for iHumph's try was excellent, and he certainly has his moments. I'd absolutely play him instead of Danielli at FB (and always would have). But he competely failed to deal with the subsequent restart, which is not atypical of him. Lots of hustle, lots of verve, but far from the finished article. And our squad is so thin in the back three - Trimble, Danielli (both of whom we'll lose come the 6N), Gilroy, D'Arcy... Payne's out... Erm...

Whitten was playing wing for us earlier in the season, and I would expect Gaston (talented but young and raw at this level) to feature (possibly Spence to fill in there as well), but the truth is we're overstocked at centre and have precious few back three players having lost Smith, Seymour, McIlwane and McCrea in the last few seasons (Nagusa didn't leave that long ago either, actually).

If we want to challenge for anything this season, a replacement for Payne, like Terblanche, is an absolute necessity.

Anyway. What was Leinster's backrow like? Of the two matches I saw, the best backrowers were (in this order) Henry, Ferris and POM. Has Heaslip's form improved any?

D'arcy hasnt played a lot of rugby this season so i wouldnt worry about those catches Don. I think he is pretty solid in this regard to be honest but he has een mucked about a bit this season. I agree with your summation of the backrows.

One good performance doesnt undo the muck Marshall has served up this season. I like the guy. He obviously gives 110% every game but 1 good game in 5 isnt good enough

Rava wrote:
Can I also repeat something Gibson said a couple of weeks ago - Rory Best to be the next Ireland captain. The man is an inspiration to all those around him.

Now that you mention captaincy, who is the Ulster captain - Rory or Muller?

Muller is the captain Sin.

Some serious anti TOL sentiment which is funny considering most Munster supporters at the game thought he was excellent and made a big difference . He is a possible starter for next week and if he continues improving in form he will be fighting with Murray for the Ireland position. I think luke fit and tol have a lot to prove being left behind.

I think Pom was better than Henry and to be honest i cant see henry getting a shot with Ireland whereas pom will get better the more gametime he has..plus he was motm. His best position is no.7 and hopefully he will play there next weekend.

Muller was made captain on the understanding that Best would be away during the RWC and 6N. That was before Muller was called up to the RWC himself.

Disagree strongly that POM was better than Henry. POM may well be the future, he may well come on in leaps and bounds and all the rest of it. But Henry, in my humble opinion, played a blinder on Saturday, better than POM. He was lucky not to get sent off for that maul-surfing stunt.

Don Alfonso wrote:Muller was made captain on the understanding that Best would be away during the RWC and 6N. That was before Muller was called up to the RWC himself.

Disagree strongly that POM was better than Henry. POM may well be the future, he may well come on in leaps and bounds and all the rest of it. But Henry, in my humble opinion, played a blinder on Saturday, better than POM. He was lucky not to get sent off for that maul-surfing stunt.

Thats your opinion but i disagree, pom was outstanding, nothing to do with him being the future as he has been outstanding all season. The difference as well with henry is that he will get better.
Sorry don thats a little bit of a silly comment on the maul. He got lifted, thought about doing something stupid and decided against it..thats a little bit lthe made up stuff from the blue rinse brigade above about TOl..

And I think you're getting a little bit swept up in the hype machine.

Let's keep it civil and agree to disagree

Don Alfonso wrote:And I think you're getting a little bit swept up in the hype machine.

Let's keep it civil and agree to disagree

Very condescending thing to say Don. I have been watching young omahoney play since he was 16 and there is no hype about him. Its all substance.

He is that good and he will captain both Munster and Ireland at some stage as he has done every team he has played in..

Fine. Personally I thought ".thats a little bit lthe made up stuff from the blue rinse brigade above about TOl.." was pretty condescending. Don't use what Leinster fans have said about TOL as any kind of analysis of my argument. Scroll further up and you'll see I'm pretty convinced that POM is the real deal, and that Henry may well just be experiencing a bit of a good run of form. You clearly have decided POM will be fantastic - that's fine, I don't want to disagree, but I think that your overall assessment of his future has clouded your assessment of this solitary eighty minutes he played on Saturday. How can you inform a cold analysis of his game against N'Hampton with the fact that he will one day captain Ireland? How does that affect his performance in the weekend just past? It doesn't. Anyway, I meant the agree to disagree part and the civility part.

DOD wrote:Some serious anti TOL sentiment which is funny considering most Munster supporters at the game thought he was excellent and made a big difference .

I actually think TOL was pretty good too and no one has given him more stick than me in the past.

On the POM v Henry argument. POM is a serious talent but Henry too is playing the best rugby of his career and was exceptional by any standard on Saturday. We should just be happy that we have a few more guys putting their hands up. Likewise Touhy and Ryan in the 2nd row. On merit all these players will be in and around the next Ireland squad I would think.

Don Alfonso wrote:Muller was made captain on the understanding that Best would be away during the RWC and 6N. That was before Muller was called up to the RWC himself.

Would the fact that not being captain has been a benefit to him as he is now playing the best rugby of his career?

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Muller was made captain on the understanding that Best would be away during the RWC and 6N. That was before Muller was called up to the RWC himself.

Would the fact that not being captain has been a benefit to him as he is now playing the best rugby of his career?

Sin I don't think you can just put Best's form down to that. Remember how well he played towards the end of the 6N too?

Certainly Muller has taken some pressure of Best and not being club captain probably allows him more time to focus on his own game. He's rennovated his barn to practice his throwing too!

Best is certainly still an on field leader at Ulster. He had a brilliant game on Saturday.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Muller was made captain on the understanding that Best would be away during the RWC and 6N. That was before Muller was called up to the RWC himself.

Would the fact that not being captain has been a benefit to him as he is now playing the best rugby of his career?

Sin I don't think you can just put Best's form down to that. Remember how well he played towards the end of the 6N too?

Certainly Muller has taken some pressure of Best and not being club captain probably allows him more time to focus on his own game. He's rennovated his barn to practice his throwing too!

Best is certainly still an on field leader at Ulster. He had a brilliant game on Saturday.

He isn't Ireland captain.

I always think it must be very hard for a hooker (or outhalf) to be captain as any of their mistakes are fairly obvious and can be the difference between winning and losing.

Munster had a great finish to that game, but I still have concerns for them. The Munster of old would be going after the 4th try in the final moments of a HC game at home. Munster of old would be kicking themselves beyond a 7 point lead at home to stop the opposition picking up an away losing point. Munster were instead fighting to get in front. When the top two teams in any of the groups play, your target has to be 5+ points from the two games and keeping the opposition to 4 points or less.

While the media are going crazy over the finish (and it was a fab 41 phase end to a game), in the context of the group this could be the result that puts the Saints past Munster by a point on the final day.


Connacht impressed and beat many peoples expectations. It is a province that when they have their backs up can do a number on Munster and especially Leinster and they brought that fight onto the pitch last weekend. Galway will be hopping next weekend.


Ulster handled a star studded Clermont side. Ulster have a grizzly pack, rampaging back row, and in iHumph someone who gets the backline singing.


Leinster were lucky not to be further behind after the first 50 minutes of play. Granted we deserved the points we got in the final half and hour. But if I think the ref had a fair game afterwards, it means he was blowing in my favour more often than the opposition (a true one eyed supporter here). But 2 points in the away part of this match up puts Leinster in place to finish ahead of Montpelier. That said, if the french side are out of the comp by round 3 they will put out second string sides and Bath/Glasgow could be sneeking away wins down there.

A solid first round for Irish provinces, but plenty of areas to work on.

Sin I don't get your point. You are trying to make a connection between Bests form and his captaincy at Ulster. My point is that he was playing well prior to handing over the Ulster captaincy to Muller.

Keith Wood, Rafael Ibanez and Sean Fitzpatrick amongst others all did ok as captain. Hooker is probably one of the best positions to have your captain.

Sin - could be. Pure conjecture, though. He's still improving - he's 29. Maybe he's just getting better?

The other thought that occured to me (which is equally conjecture!) is that maybe he is flourishing without Flannery there. I've always been a believer in scrapping for the jersey, and contantly having to prove yourself. But it's a fact that there are some players who don't perform their best under those conditions. Flannery/Best has always been a "horses for courses" kind of call, with Flannery having the edge. These days Best knows that the faith in him (which I think the mangement has always had) will be rewarded with the jersey, until another hooker surpasses him. And I wondered if that was (part of) the reason for his improved performances in the last year. Bob Dwyer wrote recently that, in his opinion, Kidney was doing the wrong thing by not putting his faith in Sexton, and switching back and forth between him and ROG. (NB I have exactly zero interest in having a Sexton/ROG debate. None.) It's about the fact that some players respond better when they know that if they go off the boil a bit, if they make mistakes, they won't necessarily be banished to the bench. And that allows them to play their best games. I wondered if that was the reason for how well he has been playing - he doesn't feel Flannery's breath on his neck, and he can focus on his game.

Sorry DOD - didn't mean to derail your thread.

roddersm wrote:Sin I don't get your point. You are trying to make a connection between Bests form and his captaincy at Ulster. My point is that he was playing well prior to handing over the Ulster captaincy to Muller.

Keith Wood, Rafael Ibanez and Sean Fitzpatrick amongst others all did ok as captain. Hooker is probably one of the best positions to have your captain.

I'm only asking if there is a connection. Rory used be very nervy when the pressure was on and whatever about problems in the lineout in general without POC, he would have a few crooked throws. He appeared to me to have got that sorted for the world cup.

While I think Rory is playing very, very well at the moment, I'm not sure if he is on the same level yet as the three you mentioned above! And certainly, Woody wasn't known for his lineout throwing prowess!

Its like with ROG - I hate when he captains a team - he is obviously a leader, but he is better off without being the main decision maker.

Don - Another view would be that if you can't handle competition for a spot in the team, how are you going to handle competing against another team.

Paul O'Connell made a point in an interview that he thought that new players don't have the same competitive edge as the likes of Alan Quinlan and Anthony Foley - he said if they weren't as good as someone else, they would just figure out a way to get the better of the opposition.

Look we can speculate why Rory is playing better. Is it because hes more experienced, fitter, is flourishing without the burden of captaincy or because he's practicing his throwing in his barn?

Probably all of the above.

The fact is we don't have many obvious choices for captain. POC is the obvious one but is 32. Best and Sexton are the next obvious choices.

Best has always been an excellent player around the pitch and is renouned for his scrummaging. His lineout throwing has improved as has his ball carrying and he's giving away less silly penalties. Lets not worry why, because with Flannery out we need him on top form.

Sin é wrote:Don - Another view would be that if you can't handle competition for a spot in the team, how are you going to handle competing against another team.

I don't buy that either. I always thought the competition from Flannery often brought out Best's ..er best form.

Sin - I think that's a semantic point, rather than a point that actually reflects human nature. I think the two are quite different. For a start, playing an actual game against another team is a team endeavour. Winiing a jersey from a competitor is not.

So psychologically they're quite different.

Rodders - you can say that, but I'd argue that he's in the best form of his career now. And there's no Flannery in contention.

Sin é wrote:
Paul O'Connell made a point in an interview that he thought that new players don't have the same competitive edge as the likes of Alan Quinlan and Anthony Foley - he said if they weren't as good as someone else, they would just figure out a way to get the better of the opposition.

Best isn't a new player. O'Connell was making a specific point about the younger Munster players not having the same mentality as previous Munster players. Can you please stop applying this comment to whatever argument you like. It is well known how much O'Connell rates Best.

Don Alfonso wrote:
Rodders - you can say that, but I'd argue that he's in the best form of his career now. And there's no Flannery in contention.

There's no question he's in the best form of his career. I just don't believe it is anything to do with Flannery.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Paul O'Connell made a point in an interview that he thought that new players don't have the same competitive edge as the likes of Alan Quinlan and Anthony Foley - he said if they weren't as good as someone else, they would just figure out a way to get the better of the opposition.

Best isn't a new player. O'Connell was making a specific point about the younger Munster players not having the same mentality as previous Munster players. Can you please stop applying this comment to whatever argument you like. It is well known how much O'Connell rates Best.

I was making a general point in response to Don about competition that surely its a good thing to have competed and won your spot on merit when actually competing against another team.

If Don can quote Bob Dwyer, surely I can quote Paul O'Connell talking about having the right mentality?

roddersm wrote:Look we can speculate why Rory is playing better. Is it because hes more experienced, fitter, is flourishing without the burden of captaincy or because he's practicing his throwing in his barn?

Probably all of the above.

The fact is we don't have many obvious choices for captain. POC is the obvious one but is 32. Best and Sexton are the next obvious choices.

Best has always been an excellent player around the pitch and is renouned for his scrummaging. His lineout throwing has improved as has his ball carrying and he's giving away less silly penalties. Lets not worry why, because with Flannery out we need him on top form.

I think POC is the obvious choice as well (and he only went 32 about 3 weeks ago) which means at the next world cup he will be just 35. Not ancient by any manner of means for a lock.

Whatever about Best, I don't think there is anything to suggest that Sexton will be the next captain. He is a back for starters!

Don Alfonso wrote:Sin - I think that's a semantic point, rather than a point that actually reflects human nature. I think the two are quite different. For a start, playing an actual game against another team is a team endeavour. Winiing a jersey from a competitor is not.

So psychologically they're quite different.

Rodders - you can say that, but I'd argue that he's in the best form of his career now. And there's no Flannery in contention.

Well, why do all the players keep talking about having competition and how good it is to have that.

Flannery was around for the warmup games in the world cup and that didn't seem to bother Rory.

Sin é wrote:I think POC is the obvious choice as well (and he only went 32 about 3 weeks ago) which means at the next world cup he will be just 35. Not ancient by any manner of means for a lock.

Whatever about Best, I don't think there is anything to suggest that Sexton will be the next captain. He is a back for starters!

How many starting locks were 35 or over in the last RWC? How many captains?

Our current captain is a back you might have noticed?

Sin - I certainly wouldn't disagree with winning your place. It's retaining it that might be a bit different, in terms of not feeling under pressure to try to force things when you're wearing the jersey.

Logically, competition should be good for your performances. But then, so should the massive vote of faith and confidence that is being made captain. The human psyche is infinitely more complicated.

I'd be delighted for Rory if he got to captain Ireland again, but I'm much more keen that he just keeps up his current excellent quality of play.

Look, Rory's best performances came when Flannery was injured. I'm not saying "QED" or anything, but I think it's hard to argue that Best's best games came when Flannery was available to step in. Surely he's been in competition with Flannery since his first jersey? He's not now, and he's on fire.

I'd go with O'Connell or O'Driscoll for now. I don't see any need to change it.

I'd let Sexton, Heaslip, O'Mahony, Best, Kearney, every other name under the sun etc etc etc have a year or two and I'd be picking a "long term" (approx 4 year) captain once people are back from Lions tour.

Let Paulie or Drico keep going til then.

Look Sin O'Connell will be captain in the 6N and in the summer tour of BOD doesn't recover in time, I have no doubt about it.

He's the vice captain and pack leader so there's no reason to give the captaincy to anyone else.

I doubt if O'Connell will be playing international rugby in 2015, it's possible but unlikely. Best and Sexton look like early contenders for the captaincy beyond 2013.

roddersm wrote:Look Sin O'Connell will be captain in the 6N and in the summer tour of BOD doesn't recover in time, I have no doubt about it.

He's the vice captain and pack leader so there's no reason to give the captaincy to anyone else.

I doubt if O'Connell will be playing international rugby in 2015, it's possible but unlikely. Best and Sexton look like early contenders for the captaincy beyond 2013.

Agree with this post.

When is the best time to pick a new captain? Is it more to do with the cycle of a team, or the emergence of individuals? I suppose it's an art, not a science - there are very different ways of thinking about it.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:I think POC is the obvious choice as well (and he only went 32 about 3 weeks ago) which means at the next world cup he will be just 35. Not ancient by any manner of means for a lock.

Whatever about Best, I don't think there is anything to suggest that Sexton will be the next captain. He is a back for starters!

How many starting locks were 35 or over in the last RWC? How many captains?

Our current captain is a back you might have noticed?

Brad Thorn was 36.5 (Feb '75). Victor Matfield - 34.5 (May '77). Simon Shaw 38 (Sept '73) Paul O'Connell (Oct '79).

It looks like if you are good enough, you are young enough.

As for Sexton - he is a back & an outhalf. Argentina are probably the only team that has their outhalf the captain (who also play at inside centre).

right d24tress ireland team of the weekend:
If i was picking a team from the weekend

Court
best
ross
touhy
POC
ferris
henry/pom (they would flip a coin for it, as if that would happen)
muldoon

Marshall
Sexton(rog to come on and drop the winner)

trimble
wallace
griffin
fitz
kearney/murphy/duffy

not many munster players i know but it was more the sum of there parts that got that win.
foley for forwards coach