State of the Provinces - HC Round 1.

First topic message reminder :

Connacht - Desperately unlucky on Friday. I was expecting to see a good performance but ultimatley Quins would pull away to an easy victory. Anything but. They were well in control for most of the second half and to add insult to injury didnt even get a lbp.
Player(s) to watch out for - Griffin and McSherry in midfield. Griffin especially. Is he the next BOD. Of the possible replacement OCs on display over the weekend he stood out the most for me. Muldoon also played extremely well as did Gavin Duffy.
Made a lot of people sit up and take notice. Only problem for them now are that Toulouse and Gloucester will be ready for them. Will still cause problems at home and will expect them to trouble all three visitors. A gale force and driving rain for Toulouse would be an interesting spectacle.

Ulster - Great win for Ulster after being under the cosh in the first half they really put it up to ASM in the second. Ferris was immense as usual but how long are his knees going to hold out....Also lets get an ageing springbok to fill in at full back cause we dont have anyone anygood.....er/oops
Players to watch out for - Darcy was impressive when he came on. Centres were sound. Forwards outstanding - Henry and Ferris.
Necessary win in a tough group with Leicester as well and Aironi will not be a pushover in terms of bonus points. Will need to get a result at Leicester or ASM if they are to progress and build on last year. Will they do it....keep them knees on ice...

Leinster - A draw but could have been more. In the first half they looked out of it but for the last 30 mins there was only one team in it and they should probably have won. Very assured and the team to beat in this group. This was probably their hardest away game in the group however Bath and Glasgow could cause them problems....would expect them to top the group without too much difficulty.
Players to watch out for - Luke Fitz was very good but McFadden got skinned on the outside again (alá the Russian try in the WC). SOB has become Elsomesque in his importance. Heaslip played better than recently but still a lot to do to get back to last years form. Sexton great kicking, and cool head

Munster - A team in transition for sure. The game reminded me of some of the older HC pool games when teams originally came to TP and were confident of getting a win...ie Saracens or Wasps back in the day. But got a bit of a surprise from players they knew nothing about. Munster is and always has been about the collective (including the crowd )and that was proven again on Sat. Still a lot to do to convince but a lot of errors will give Foley and McGahan lots to work with.
Players to watch out for - D Ryan and POM - outstanding but should be played at 7. TOL looked very sharp when he came on and orchestrated the last phase along with DOC and Leamy. ROG - what can you say.
A work in progress. I think if this bunch get to a QF it will be a big acheivement and they will cause problems for any team. At the moment though would not like to be going to Northampton looking for a win.

Ireland watch...
Up - Luke Fitz, TOL, D Ryan
Ones to Watch (bolters) - Griffin, POM, Cave.
Outside bets but with enhanced chances - Muldoon..

Then why do people want to move O'Driscoll from 13 to 12. Or put Ferris into the second row. John Smit managed both tight head and hooker at a late age. He wouldn't be international class but you need players of all abilities in your team.

Using the example of BOD moving to 12 is a bit of a silly comparison. He is a centre, and he still would be a centre moving to 12. He has the skills for it and it would suit him more as he has lost his pace and is exploited defensively at 13 as the outside man gets by him.

Moving Ferris to second row is a silly suggestion and it hasn't happened. Smit would still be playing in the front row but was not that effective a tight head.

O'Leary is a scrum half, it is a drastically different position from 12. Do you think he would do better than Mafi there for Munster?

Why is it a silly suggestion. Conor O'Shea has suggested a second row partnership of Ferris and O'Connell for the 6 Nations.

I don't think he'd be better than Mafi but I think we have hardly any centres. What do we do if Mafi is injured?

Its easy dismiss an idea but O'Leary has a number of good attributes. As others have said he is a good athlete but a poor scrumhalf. Whats so bad about putting him at centre in the Pro 12.

He only turned 28 two weeks ago. He still has 4-5 years of rugby. Plenty of time left.

Moving the best blindside we have to second row.. how is that not silly? What use is that? He wouldn't be as good a second row as the ones we already have, and he would be wasted there.

Plenty of time left to try and improve playing at SH. Move him to 12 and I think we will be seeing a Bergamasco mark II situation.

It seems people have very short memories. First of all if I recall correctly O'Leary has played in nearly every position in the Munster backline (maybe not full back).

Rodders you seem like a person with very strong and passionate opinions but you shouldnt let opinion get in the way of facts on occassion. In 09 O'Leary was a very good scrumhalf and would have possibly been No.1 on the lions tour except for the unfortunate ankle break (amazing what people forget).

His form has not been anywhere near what it was then but last weekend seemed to show a return to some form. Given Redden and Boss are iffy at best internationally and Murray is still only learning I think it is only a good thing that we have someone like O'Leary getting back to form. If people dont rate him as a Scrumhalf I find that at odds with what he has achieved as a player but also that he got picked for the Lions by no less a person than Ian McGeechan.

Is scrumhalf that much of a specialist. Shane Wiliams, Ben Foden, Morgan Parra, Piri Weepu, Ruan Pienaar etc have all played #9 and another position in the backs.

In relation to Ferris, I wouldn't move him but sometimes you have to cover your bets and play a player out of position. His point was that Ferris is an excellent backrow but we have lots of excellent backrows. We have few quality locks and Ferris has the ability to play just as well there.

Stag you have plenty of centres: Mafi, Barnes, Chambers and Earls and Johne Murphy can fill in there too. Keatley could be an option at 12.

TOL will not be as good as any of those. He is not big enough, fast enough or strong enough to play in the 3/4s at the top level. If he was he'd still be on the wing.

newbie wrote:
Rodders you seem like a person with very strong and passionate opinions but you shouldnt let opinion get in the way of facts on occassion. In 09 O'Leary was a very good scrumhalf and would have possibly been No.1 on the lions tour except for the unfortunate ankle break (amazing what people forget).

I accept that but the game was different then. Prior to the law changes you could get away with playing a slower and more defensive way hense TOL's service wasn't as big an issue.

The new interpretation favour teams who keep the ball in hand and generate quick ball and use the 12 to get over the gainline.

Stag scrum half is probably the most specialist position on the pitch.

I am loathe to move Earls from wing to be honest. Playing at centre destroyed Johne Murphy's season last year and Chambers is gone in 2 months. We have Mafi and Barnes.

Keatley at 12 is the one I want to really see Rodders I think he could be good in the short term as a better playmaker and making the transition to starting #10 easier. Sadly it doesn't seem to be on the cards.

I should add that my criticism of O'Leary is based on his performance in the 6N and AI's.

I actually thought he did ok in the summer and looked sharp enough when he came on for Munster in the last few weeks.

The game is all about quick ball and taking the right options. O'Leary does dither a lot whereas Murray just seems to back himself and read the game better.

[quote="red_stag"]Is scrumhalf that much of a specialist. Shane Wiliams, Ben Foden, Morgan Parra, Piri Weepu, Ruan Pienaar etc have all played #9 and another position in the backs.

In relation to Ferris, I wouldn't move him but sometimes you have to cover your bets and play a player out of position. His point was that Ferris is an excellent backrow but we have lots of excellent backrows. We have few quality locks and Ferris has the ability to play just as well there.[/quote]

That is a massive stretch in fairness Stag and is in no way backed up by evidence. Ferris is the best of our backrows. There is no call to move him.

Stand I wouldn't move him, that was merely the point made by Conor O'Shea on RTE Television.

I would consider moving Ferris to 2nd row if there was any evidence that he was was an excellent 2nd row as well as an excellent flanker. Is there any evidence to suggest this?

Fair enough so. I really dont see how that call can be made though. it seems to be to be based on this bee in our bonnet about a natural 7. As i recall O'Shea was touting the backrow spot to go to Dominic Ryan who cant get in Leinsters HEC squad.

The only 'new' backrow in the frame at the minute would be o'mahoney for me (with a view to seeing how henry performs between now and christmas). Can O'Mahoney play 7 though?

Moving positions in the back line works for older players. But few players, Smit is the only one I can think of, can move position in the pack in the latter stages of their career.

Backs also tend to move towards the 12 jersey. Umaga was a wing, then OC, then IC. Flyhalfs can move out to 12 over time also.

But I struggle to think of people who make successful moves between the rows of a pack after their mid 20s? And to do something like that with Ferris, who is injury prone. Why move him and have him get up to speed in a new position when we should be getting every last drop of effort out of the man before is gets injured beyond repair? Heaslip to the second row would have more of a chance of happening successfully ( and that is still in the <1% probability)

red_stag wrote:Stand I wouldn't move him, that was merely the point made by Conor O'Shea on RTE Television.

O'Shea mustn't have seen the performances by Tuohy and Donnacha Ryan then, who were both outstanding? I hear Toner played well too? Add DOC into the mix and maybe we have more depth at 2nd row than at the back??

It seems Cullen is trying to take the 10 jersey of Sexton though...

red_stag wrote:Is scrumhalf that much of a specialist. Shane Wiliams, Ben Foden, Morgan Parra, Piri Weepu, Ruan Pienaar etc have all played #9 and another position in the backs.

Ask Bergamasco!

In fairness, Williams and Foden tinkered with SH, but would never be considered anything other than emergency cover. Certainly never to be considered at international level unless injuries occurred during the game.

Weepu, Parra and Pienaar would consider themselves SH's first, other positions second.

Pienaar, Giteau and maybe Autsin Healey, would be the only players I'd consider that ever showed their talents effectively at SH and A.N. Other position.

To me you get utility players and players who play in a specific position. Ferris is a 6. Heaslip is an 8. SOB is a utility back rower, so he is playing 7. POM hasn't settled in a position yet though to me he is a 6 or an 8 (I would personally prefer him at 8).

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:Stand I wouldn't move him, that was merely the point made by Conor O'Shea on RTE Television.

O'Shea mustn't have seen the performances by Tuohy and Donnacha Ryan then, who were both outstanding? I hear Toner played well too? Add DOC into the mix and maybe we have more depth at 2nd row than at the back??

It seems Cullen is trying to take the 10 jersey of Sexton though...

That Sexton fella, sure he can never take the pressure kicks when a game is on the line away from home. "is it close enough for ya Jonny?!"

red_stag wrote:Is scrumhalf that much of a specialist. Shane Wiliams, Ben Foden, Morgan Parra, Piri Weepu, Ruan Pienaar etc have all played #9 and another position in the backs.

In relation to Ferris, I wouldn't move him but sometimes you have to cover your bets and play a player out of position. His point was that Ferris is an excellent backrow but we have lots of excellent backrows. We have few quality locks and Ferris has the ability to play just as well there.

Parra is primarily a scrum half. As is Weepu, and Pienaar. The rest are not. There is a reason they are not playing scrum half internationally, and it is because they aren't scrum halves. It is a definitely a specialist position. If you don't have a good proper 9 then your whole attack suffers.

How does Ferris have the ability to play just as well in second row? Have you ever seen him play there? There is zero evidence for this.

Oh jeez Rory I've said twice now I don't want him there and pointed out Conor O'Shea said it.

Fair enough!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To me you get utility players and players who play in a specific position. Ferris is a 6. Heaslip is an 8. SOB is a utility back rower, so he is playing 7. POM hasn't settled in a position yet though to me he is a 6 or an 8 (I would personally prefer him at 8).

He is a 7 Rory it is his preferred and better position, it is where he has played 90% of his rugby. He has the capability of playing anywhere and that is why Munster are using him in various positions more to suit there requirements which is fine but in terms of where he is best placed it is 7....77777777

Rodders are you picking on poor TOL now that ROG is doing ok? TOL was very poor last year when he played but signs are of him remaining fit first of all and that he did well when he came on. As has been pointed out he was picked for the Lions after all so he is probably a decent player. Just some people dont seem to have realised that...

This thread seems to have taken on a life of its own...

If Ferris played second row we would need The Bull Hayes, Tony Buckley plus a JCB to lift him in the lineout.

DOD wrote:
Rodders are you picking on poor TOL now that ROG is doing ok?

DOD firstly I don't agree ROG is doing OK. That drop goal was a poor strike, needed to be a bit further to the right.

I agree though TOL has looked sharp. Fair play lets see how he gets on when he's injury free.

Stag who would you like to see Munster sign for (centre)? Conrad Smith?

Its a strange one. I want to see Barnes develop but we wont go far with Barnes and Maifi in the short term. Catch 22

roddersm wrote:

DOD wrote:
Rodders are you picking on poor TOL now that ROG is doing ok?

DOD firstly I don't agree ROG is doing OK. That drop goal was a poor strike, needed to be a bit further to the right.

I agree though TOL has looked sharp. Fair play lets see how he gets on when he's injury free.

I agree it should have been through the centre....

BlueMuff wrote:Stag who would you like to see Munster sign for (centre)? Conrad Smith?

Was anyone else really impressed with Downey? I thought Mafi would have dealt with him better.

I think he would be a brilliant signing for Munster if the IRFU could prize him away from Saints.

I like Barnes. Hes a bit raw but I think hes got plenty of potential and is a genuine running threat.

You guys need a ball carrying forward not a centre, no?

Agree with Pete.

I would sign a ball carrying forward and develop Keatley, Hanrahan, Mafi, Barnes and Gleeson as my centres.

We have lots of backrows with similar skills - none with go forward ability.

o gara doing ok watched the game twice leinster supporter done sweet fa for 80 mins. impact player,super sub.

Munster could do with a center. Conrad Smith has actually said publicly in an interview that he liked the idea of playing for Munster. Nothing ever came of it though. We should be careful to only sign expensive foreign players when absolutely necessary.

It's not a good long term strategy because we can't really ever compete with the salaries French teams are paying so there's no point wasting the money trying to keep up with them. And I think Ireland can produce enough talent for four teams. We've won 5 Heineken Cups with mostly Irish players. There is more interest in rugby than ever so in the future there'll be more potential recruits. Our provinces are more professionally run now with better facilities.

If the Irish system could produce POC, ROG, BOD, MOK, Flannery, Wallace D'arcy, Hickey, Horgan, Dempsey, Humphries, Foley etc. 10 or more years ago. Then I think the more modern professional system we have now can produce even more players of this quality. Especially since the number of people playing rugby is growing. Or were we just lucky that lot all turned up at the same time?

DOD wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To me you get utility players and players who play in a specific position. Ferris is a 6. Heaslip is an 8. SOB is a utility back rower, so he is playing 7. POM hasn't settled in a position yet though to me he is a 6 or an 8 (I would personally prefer him at 8).

He is a 7 Rory it is his preferred and better position, it is where he has played 90% of his rugby. He has the capability of playing anywhere and that is why Munster are using him in various positions more to suit there requirements which is fine but in terms of where he is best placed it is 7....77777777

Rodders are you picking on poor TOL now that ROG is doing ok? TOL was very poor last year when he played but signs are of him remaining fit first of all and that he did well when he came on. As has been pointed out he was picked for the Lions after all so he is probably a decent player. Just some people dont seem to have realised that...

This thread seems to have taken on a life of its own...

If Ferris played second row we would need The Bull Hayes, Tony Buckley plus a JCB to lift him in the lineout.

Still not sure why you think it is his preferred and best position but you know my opinions on him already Future Ireland 8!

DOD - I owe you a wee apology. I kept referring to comments I'd earlier made about Henry, but in fact they were in the Clermont vs Ulster thread.

So sincere apologies. I'm still right, though.

Wally in action! He is looking good.

http://www.sportsfile.com/id/576302/

Don Alfonso wrote:DOD - I owe you a wee apology. I kept referring to comments I'd earlier made about Henry, but in fact they were in the Clermont vs Ulster thread.

So sincere apologies. I'm still right, though.

No worries Don..re O'Mahoney I have been watching him play since he was a youngster but i do buy into the hype as well . Irelands next openside