State of the Provinces - HC Round 1.

First topic message reminder :

Connacht - Desperately unlucky on Friday. I was expecting to see a good performance but ultimatley Quins would pull away to an easy victory. Anything but. They were well in control for most of the second half and to add insult to injury didnt even get a lbp.
Player(s) to watch out for - Griffin and McSherry in midfield. Griffin especially. Is he the next BOD. Of the possible replacement OCs on display over the weekend he stood out the most for me. Muldoon also played extremely well as did Gavin Duffy.
Made a lot of people sit up and take notice. Only problem for them now are that Toulouse and Gloucester will be ready for them. Will still cause problems at home and will expect them to trouble all three visitors. A gale force and driving rain for Toulouse would be an interesting spectacle.

Ulster - Great win for Ulster after being under the cosh in the first half they really put it up to ASM in the second. Ferris was immense as usual but how long are his knees going to hold out....Also lets get an ageing springbok to fill in at full back cause we dont have anyone anygood.....er/oops
Players to watch out for - Darcy was impressive when he came on. Centres were sound. Forwards outstanding - Henry and Ferris.
Necessary win in a tough group with Leicester as well and Aironi will not be a pushover in terms of bonus points. Will need to get a result at Leicester or ASM if they are to progress and build on last year. Will they do it....keep them knees on ice...

Leinster - A draw but could have been more. In the first half they looked out of it but for the last 30 mins there was only one team in it and they should probably have won. Very assured and the team to beat in this group. This was probably their hardest away game in the group however Bath and Glasgow could cause them problems....would expect them to top the group without too much difficulty.
Players to watch out for - Luke Fitz was very good but McFadden got skinned on the outside again (alá the Russian try in the WC). SOB has become Elsomesque in his importance. Heaslip played better than recently but still a lot to do to get back to last years form. Sexton great kicking, and cool head

Munster - A team in transition for sure. The game reminded me of some of the older HC pool games when teams originally came to TP and were confident of getting a win...ie Saracens or Wasps back in the day. But got a bit of a surprise from players they knew nothing about. Munster is and always has been about the collective (including the crowd )and that was proven again on Sat. Still a lot to do to convince but a lot of errors will give Foley and McGahan lots to work with.
Players to watch out for - D Ryan and POM - outstanding but should be played at 7. TOL looked very sharp when he came on and orchestrated the last phase along with DOC and Leamy. ROG - what can you say.
A work in progress. I think if this bunch get to a QF it will be a big acheivement and they will cause problems for any team. At the moment though would not like to be going to Northampton looking for a win.

Ireland watch...
Up - Luke Fitz, TOL, D Ryan
Ones to Watch (bolters) - Griffin, POM, Cave.
Outside bets but with enhanced chances - Muldoon..

D24 - why is O'Mahony at 7 in your team. Either pick him at 6 where he played or don't pick him Ferris is the guy against him.

Didn't see the Leinster game so can't comment on them. Agree Munsters standouts weren't great - team effort all the way.,

Don Alfonso wrote:When is the best time to pick a new captain?

As early as possible Don, if there is an outstanding young candidate like Warburton.

I stick by my post above, O'Connell is going strong and is the best candidate for now.

What we need to see is other players taking leadership and senior roles within the side. Like I say Best and Sexton stand out. Heaslip did but has lost the plot a bit.

Don Alfonso wrote:When is the best time to pick a new captain? Is it more to do with the cycle of a team, or the emergence of individuals? I suppose it's an art, not a science - there are very different ways of thinking about it.

I think Ireland are unusual in that we've had BOD around for so long. Most other countries change their captain a lot more frequently. I think the captain will emerge rather than be chosen. Look at the way Sam Warburton came from nowhere.

Or pick POM at 8 where he is most likely to get a shot Ferris/SOB won't budge I don't think.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:
How many starting locks were 35 or over in the last RWC? How many captains?

Brad Thorn was 36.5 (Feb '75). Victor Matfield - 34.5 (May '77). Simon Shaw 38 (Sept '73) Paul O'Connell (Oct '79).

It looks like if you are good enough, you are young enough.

So thats one starting lock, Thorn, and no captains?

It looks like if you are 35, you are too old

D24tress - hey! What's with all this team of the weekend stuff? Can't you see we've been busy dragging this thread horribly off-topic for ages now?

Watched the Ulster game again and Trimble was better than I thought he was. Who was Leinster's best player? Sexton?

And I agree with Stag - you've got judge players' weekend performances at the position where they were put in. Otherwise, what are you actually reflecting? So, no POM. Nobody tell DOD.

Don you got online highlights of the Ulster game?

red_stag wrote:D24 - why is O'Mahony at 7 in your team. Either pick him at 6 where he played or don't pick him Ferris is the guy against him.

Didn't see the Leinster game so can't comment on them. Agree Munsters standouts weren't great - team effort all the way.,

cause its my team
if i want to put him outhalf i will.


In fairness henry and POM impressed me alot

i also thought touhy was very good, so was toner when he came on. (2nd row might not be a problem in the future, donnachav2 aswell)

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:
How many starting locks were 35 or over in the last RWC? How many captains?

Brad Thorn was 36.5 (Feb '75). Victor Matfield - 34.5 (May '77). Simon Shaw 38 (Sept '73) Paul O'Connell (Oct '79).

It looks like if you are good enough, you are young enough.

So thats one starting lock, Thorn, and no captains?

It looks like if you are 35, you are too old

None of them were captains in the first place to lose it because of age. Willie John McBride was 35.5 when he retired from international rugby.

So far his best game for Munster has been at 8 Watch out Heaslip.

Rory your so funny about this number 8 thing. You watch this bloke in one match and have his future all mapped out for him

A good summation of the Irish provinces over the weekend and the players. I see it has turned into a captains discussion seeing as DOD was talking up his man from Munster again.

I have seen POM on a couple of occassions and he looks a handy player. Seems to be some discussion on what is his best position. All I know is that listening to the sky sports commentators (i think it was Barnes) he was saying at the start of the match to watch out for POM as Alan Quinlan had been talking him up as the next big thing. I didnt see the Ulster game so cant comment on Henry

Regarding Captain it seems as if anyone of Best, DOC or BOD will be captain, however if a player like O'Mahoney comes in (or other youngsters) and does indeed turn out to be the real deal why not make them captain (like the English did with Carling way back).

Sin I can't believe you mentioned Willy John McBride! That was the amateur era!

The reason there were no captains >= 35 is because there are very few starting players >= 35! That is my point.

Brad Thorn and Simon Shaw are/were exceptions to the rule. It is highly unlikely that O'Connell will still be at the top of the game in 2015.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:So far his best game for Munster has been at 8 Watch out Heaslip.

Planet Rugby's Team of the Week had POM at 6! (rest of the backrow were Gorgodze & Joubert).
Only other Irish/Irish based players to make their Team were Doug Howlett & Ronan O'Gara).

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3822_7308275,00.html

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:If you are looking for a good Irish scrumhalf this weekend look at Paul Marshall up North. he passed well, snipped the fringes and box kicked well. Also put in some good tackles.

Feic. Off!

Wow. I wonder which provincial game they bothered watching...

Howlett, 100%, though.

roddersm wrote:Sin I can't believe you mentioned Willy John McBride! That was the amateur era!

The reason there were no captains >= 35 is because there are very few starting players >= 35! That is my point.

Brad Thorn and Simon Shaw are/were exceptions to the rule. It is highly unlikely that O'Connell will still be at the top of the game in 2015.

I suppose you'd written off David Wallace as well 3/4 years ago (he was 35 in July).

In fairness, Notch, there's not a factual innaccuracy in what Pete posted. Key words, however, being "this weekend"...

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:Sin I can't believe you mentioned Willy John McBride! That was the amateur era!

The reason there were no captains >= 35 is because there are very few starting players >= 35! That is my point.

Brad Thorn and Simon Shaw are/were exceptions to the rule. It is highly unlikely that O'Connell will still be at the top of the game in 2015.

I suppose you'd written off David Wallace as well 3/4 years ago (he was 35 in July).

Nope. Didn't mention Wallace at all actually. I don't think he'll make the next world cup either though, do you?

O'Connell is contracted only as far as 2013. I think he can keep going strong until then. Beyond that who knows? I doubt though if he'll be as good, fit, athletic and strong in 4 years as he is today.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:Sin I can't believe you mentioned Willy John McBride! That was the amateur era!

The reason there were no captains >= 35 is because there are very few starting players >= 35! That is my point.

Brad Thorn and Simon Shaw are/were exceptions to the rule. It is highly unlikely that O'Connell will still be at the top of the game in 2015.

I suppose you'd written off David Wallace as well 3/4 years ago (he was 35 in July).

Nope. Didn't mention Wallace at all actually. I don't think he'll make the next world cup either though, do you?

O'Connell is contracted only as far as 2013. I think he can keep going strong until then. Beyond that who knows? I doubt though if he'll be as good, fit, athletic and strong in 4 years as he is today.

I wouldn't put it past him to make it. According to some tweeting (Ferris), Wallace, at the ripe old age of 35, was one of the fittest guys in the Ireland rugby world cup squad. He was fitter than Ferris was anyway.

What is the real story with Ferris are his knees going to hold up or is he going to turn into Paul McGrath?

newbie wrote:What is the real story with Ferris are his knees going to hold up or is he going to turn into Paul McGrath?

Feic, Newbie I hope he doesn't turn into Paul McGrath . He's knackered mate. He won't be around for the 2015 World Cup. He might not even make the 2012 NZ trip (Que a comment from Rodders )

Anyway, never mind that when do you cease to be "Newbie"

Rava wrote:
Feic, Newbie I hope he doesn't turn into Paul McGrath . He's knackered mate. He won't be around for the 2015 World Cup. He might not even make the 2012 NZ trip (Que a comment from Rodders )

I'm speechless

Sin é wrote:
I wouldn't put it past him to make it. According to some tweeting (Ferris), Wallace, at the ripe old age of 35, was one of the fittest guys in the Ireland rugby world cup squad. He was fitter than Ferris was anyway.

I'm sure he was the fittest sin. But being the fittest guy pushing a sled is one thing and having a body up to the impact and pace of top level rugby is another. I doubt if Wallace, Ferris or O'Connell will be at the next RWC.

Sorry for interupting this debate just I wasn't on here last night or earlier this morning so I am jumping back and ignore it if you want:

I thought TOL was awful DOD and this blue veil shinnanigans is rubbish plain and simple! I have no problem in saying Murray played better than either Leinster 9 or even that Marshall played better than either Leinster 9 so this bias stuff is just stupid, offensive and entirely uncalled for.

Grow up.

It was a point and an opinion that had nothing to do with provincial nonesense but you deemed it necessary to bring it in.

Look at the 41 phases clip on youtube and rugby dump.
How many bad passes were there? To forwards who weren't ready for it and retreating to get in position? How many times did he give the ball to ROG when he had no one outside him or a man making it a 2-vs-many more.

His pick and drives were great, they really were but as a scrumhalf he was god f-ing awful and your comment that this opinion has to do with me being a Leinster supporter as p*ssed right off.

He didn't even make the pass to his 10 for the drop goal. Leamy had to do it and before him POC.

TOL is a great athlete but a very poor scrumhalf.

Apologies to everyone else for interrupting the thread

Paul Marshall is a poor mans TOL who in turn is a poor mans Isaac Boss.

Murray and Reddan can slot in anywhere along the spectrum depending on what mood they are in.

Not saying he's not, Rodders, what I am saying is that Marshall outperformed everyone last weekend.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sorry for interupting this debate just I wasn't on here last night or earlier this morning so I am jumping back and ignore it if you want:

I thought TOL was awful DOD and this blue veil shinnanigans is rubbish plain and simple! I have no problem in saying Murray played better than either Leinster 9 or even that Marshall played better than either Leinster 9 so this bias stuff is just stupid, offensive and entirely uncalled for.

Grow up.

It was a point and an opinion that had nothing to do with provincial nonesense but you deemed it necessary to bring it in.

Look at the 41 phases clip on youtube and rugby dump.
How many bad passes were there? To forwards who weren't ready for it and retreating to get in position? How many times did he give the ball to ROG when he had no one outside him or a man making it a 2-vs-many more.

His pick and drives were great, they really were but as a scrumhalf he was god f-ing awful and your comment that this opinion has to do with me being a Leinster supporter as p*ssed right off.

He didn't even make the pass to his 10 for the drop goal. Leamy had to do it and before him POC.

TOL is a great athlete but a very poor scrumhalf.

Apologies to everyone else for interrupting the thread

Absolutely agree on O'Leary being a great athlete but definitely not a scrum half, doesn't have the hands and never will I'm afraid. Murray is Munster's future at 9 in my opinion.

Thats probably true Pete, he had a blinder and not for the 1st time but young Marshall is not exactly a model of consistancy you know?

He can switch from the sublime to the rediculous quicker than you can say SUFTUM!.

I agree with the last few posts. A 9 (and a 10) should be solid in their primary duties, ie fast ball, good pass etc, before being able to dart for the line or barge through defenders or be an extra flanker.

It is similar to Carter vs Cooper. Carter would be the solid 10, with obvious talents in other areas of the pitch but he is very reliable and solid. Cooper is probably more exciting and has the x factor, but he isn't solid/consistent.

I just don't rate TOL as a scrumhalf. He doesn't inhabit the role like someone who has a natural talent for it and has played there all his life. He can do a job. He can have some good games. But when he's under pressure he's shown up. He makes incorrect decisions and his technique doesn't hold up. He doesn't have the pass or the vision or the composure when the pressure is really on.

I'd stick with Murray. He's Munster and Ireland's best hope for a quality scrumhalf. Playing big games for Munster can only make him better. When a young player has potential, sometimes you have to give him your full backing. You can reap the rewards pretty quickly. Genia is the same age as Murray. He already has quite a bit of experience and is rated as one of the worlds best. Murray might have had a couple of poor games, but I don't see the point in dropping him. If McGahan believes he has the ability and the mentality to learn fast then stick with him.

Could O'Leary make a good 12? I think it could be worth trying.

I also believe Murray is the future but you can already see people have digs at him and his passing.

However in my opinion TOL is still a very good SH. Hes had a bad season but please go back to the two seasons before he broke his ankle. I remember a quarter final against the Ospreys in TP were he was the complete SH. Fast accurate passing mixed with good defense and strong breaks.

My point is that people go over the top when they try to knock TOL. He is not bad as people make him out to be.

Rava wrote:

newbie wrote:What is the real story with Ferris are his knees going to hold up or is he going to turn into Paul McGrath?

Feic, Newbie I hope he doesn't turn into Paul McGrath . He's knackered mate. He won't be around for the 2015 World Cup. He might not even make the 2012 NZ trip (Que a comment from Rodders )

Anyway, never mind that when do you cease to be "Newbie"

As my name on here is a reference to my introduction to the social aspect of the internet and computing and the direct opposite to my age I dont see it changing for the foreseeable future (I am of the two fingered typing generation).

I think people are being a little harsh on O'Leary. In 2009 he played very well, the last couple of years he has suffured from the ankle injury, back injuries and that eye injury. Watching the game on Saturday I thought his passing was quite good actually and he upped the tempo that Munster were playing at considerably and gave his forwards a target as well when he took the ball up. If he comes on further I can see him being back in contention as his overall game when on song is very good.

It would be great if they could do something about Ferris he is such a destructive player.

red_stag wrote:Could O'Leary make a good 12? I think it could be worth trying.

No but he'd be a good flanker if he was 4 inches taller and 3 stone heavier, but he isn't, so he'll remain a fairly physical scrum half with slow service and white boots.

I do remember thinking when watching the Welsh game in the WC that we could have done with O'Leary. Murray was having a decent enough game but I recalled that Phillips often struggled when he played against TOL in games because O'Leary dominated him physically and negated his impact...something we could have done with during that game.

People blame his injuries but it's not like he is not physically right it's his skill set and his mentallity, and he has had an extended run of games to regain his skills if they faded through lack of practise while injured.

As a 12 stag? Aye maybe, or a wing if necessary?

red_stag wrote:Could O'Leary make a good 12? I think it could be worth trying.

He might make a good brain surgeon too, but would that be worth trying?

BlueMuff wrote:I also believe Murray is the future but you can already see people have digs at him and his passing.

However in my opinion TOL is still a very good SH. Hes had a bad season but please go back to the two seasons before he broke his ankle. I remember a quarter final against the Ospreys in TP were he was the complete SH. Fast accurate passing mixed with good defense and strong breaks.

My point is that people go over the top when they try to knock TOL. He is not bad as people make him out to be.

+1

In the background to most of the 'over the top' comments on 606v2 is the provincial tinted glasses we all wear (and people implying bias into very valid and considered comments).

Phillips struggled against O'Leary because our pack dominated the Welsh pack. How the flip would TOL dominate Phillips, Phillips is twice his size?!

O'Leary's myth grows by the season. He is not that big strong or fast. He just looks big and strong alongside Stringer and Reddan. He makes relatively few breaks and Reddan is a better tackler. Boss is better than either and Murray is better than Boss.

And Marshall is ....................

TOL did get shown up defensively at times during the RWC warm ups but he was just back from injury can't think of many more instances than that but agree that he doesn't make many breaks considering that he is a poor passer. Compared to Philips (also a pretty poor passer) TOl makes very few breaks

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote: Compared to Philips (also a pretty poor passer) TOl makes very few breaks

Compared to John Hayes he makes very few breaks.

He is quite fast actually. Look, I'm not having a go at Munster, or TOL's character or work ethic or his speed or physicality or anything like that. I'm just giving my opinion on his quality as a scrumhalf. I don't think he has the class required and I think Murray possibly does.

All in all he is physically brilliant, if he had the skills of Murray he'd be great.

Murray could actually learn a lot from him, as Murray is a big lad and not slow it would be good having him running off the tail of lineouts etc.

On the POM/Henry debate i do think Chris Henry was the best performing Irish backrow at the weekend from Ferris. That being said i dont think he has had a great season and anytime i have watched Musnter this season i have been impressed with O'Mahoney who has 3/4 years on Henry.

to my mind unless Chris Henry can turn in performances like last saturdays on a consistent basis he will never be an option at international level. he is 26/27 if i remember correctly as well.

I dont see the need to look beyond Paul O'connell as our interim Ireland captain and beyond that we will see. Sexton seems reasonably well placed, Heaslip needs to watch his form, and who knows who will come through in the next 3 years so its not really worth arguing about.

The talk of TOL trying a different position is an interesting one. Perhaps he shoudl have focused playing somewhere other than SH earlier in his career? It would be too late to change now. Also Rodders he would definitely be big enough for openside flanker!

Why would it be too late. I think he could make a #12 capable of playing Pro 12 level. His pass is not dreadful. It is simply too slow for an international scrumhalf. It is good enough for a domestic league level centre. He is bigger and heavier than Paddy Wallace - why couldn't he play there. He can pass, run and tackle. He could do a job in a position where Musnter are weak.

Because it isn't just to do with physical attributes, or whether or not he has a decent pass. He would be playing against players who have been playing in the position for years, who will obviously have the edge on him. It would be a disaster.

Rory_Gallagher wrote: Also Rodders he would definitely be big enough for openside flanker!

He's 5'11 and 13.5 stone. I've never heard such hyperbole around a player in my life because he made 1 big tackle 1 time 3 seasons ago. You'd think he was Gorgonzolla the way people go on about his physicality.......I would back Peter stringer to make a tackle before O'Leary.