PGA Tour: Presidents Cup / Q-Schools etc: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

1).For the first time since 2003 the American Prsidents Cup Team will have to use their passports and there is every prospect of an exciting "Cup" this week at Royal Melbourne, hopefully with a little touch of needle and a partisan crowd. Presidents Cups have often resembled exhibitions and that's exactly what we don't want this week.

2).Both teams must take some comfort from last week's tournaments in Japan, Singapore and Sydney with good results from Woods, Watney and Watson, plus Baddeley, Day, Ogilvy, Scott, Ishikawa and Schwartzel. Mahan and Stricker have declared themselves fit and rarin' to go, so the stage is set for a thriller.

3).Who's going to win? On paper you'd have to go with Team USA especially bolstered by Woods' good form at The Lakes. The International Team pay the price for a qualifying system that rewards players for 2010 form even if they stunk the joint up these past few months - Exhibit "A" being Goosen who has fallen from the World's Top 20 just three months ago, now languishing with team-mates Allenby and Els outside the Top 50, Baddeley, Ishikawa and Yang not much better in the 40's. In contrast, only Furyk and Woods of the Americans lie outside the Top 22.

4).But the Americans have ridden homefield advantage to straightforward wins while coming up short in their only two journeys abroad: 1998's thumping in Australia and 2003's twilight tie in South Africa. This is a very big deal for Greg Norman, presumably much more so than for Couples, and his Team is as Melbourne-centric as he could get. In 1998, Appleby, Elkington, Norman and Parry finished 10 - 1 - 3 in their matches on their way to a resounding win and if Shark's homeboys don't do something similar, I don't see Goosen, Els and Ishikawa (the only three Internationals with a winning PC record) rescuing them.

5).Most of us let our heart rule our head when it comes to Team events and I'm expecting the poor recent form of Furyk, Kuchar, Mickelson and Toms, plus the inexperience of some American rookies to be beaten to the post by Greg Norman's ability to galvanize his Team. He'll need Ogilvy and Scott to lead from the front and better form than they've shown previously from senior players like Allenby, Choi and Els. But in Baddeley, Ishikawa and K-t Kim, Shark may have the three best putters in the event, hopefully trump cards.

6).What of Woods? He looked good at The Lakes; even when he was piling up bogeys on Saturday, his form wasn't as bad as his score. Arguably only ring-rust prevented him from winning the tournament and I expect him to justify his selection this week - apart from anything else, Couples needs Tiger's experience. I agree with selecting Woods over Keegan Bradley, just not announcing it months in advance. Whatever happens this week, expect Tiger to reassert himself at his Chevron benefit and then embark on a Masters-oriented schedule early next year, hoipefully adding an event (Riviera?) to his normal schedule.

7).Whatever the golfers do in the coming week, expect the real star of the show to be Royal Melbourne's "composite" course. The course will play relatively short (about 7,000 yards), but positioning of the tee shot is crucial to being able to shoot at the pin (very Harbour Town in that regard), and the famous bunkering will get lots of action. Geoff Ogilvy's perceptive comments about golf and golfcourses belie his apparently laid-back, nonchalant on-course demeanour, and he once defined a great course design and set-up as one which the very best players found "relatively easy" while lesser players "found it really difficult" (his description of Southern Hills at the 2007 PGA).
When he talks about Royal Melbourne in GolfWorld, "I must have played the course thousands of times, but I can't wait to get back. It really is a special place.", you get the impression he hopes to navigate it successfully while others with less familiarity of its nuances find it very tricky.

8).Just a word or two about John Daly. Yes, he behaved like an idiot in Sydney last week and he seems to have worn out his invariably warm Australian welcome. But, really, what did the Aussies expect; he's done it before and, given the chance, he'll doubtless do it again. Fortunately Tour comedian Jarrod Lyle had the last word by presenting Daly with a box of golfballs before the start of their round at a Monday Melbourne Pro-Am.

9).John Daly should be at Stage 2 PGA Tour Q-School this week with fellow Major Champions Duval, Beem, Janzen, Micheel and Hamilton. Not to mention erstwhile "Cuppers" Austin, Begay, Maggert, Weekley, Franco, Hensby and Lonard. Garcia-Heredia, Gronberg, Hafthorsson, Johnson, Owen and Fergal Rafferty are among the Europeans competing, while other surprising entries include Nathan Green and wonderkids of recent times Lovemark and Michael Sim. Barry Lane and Mark Mouland contest Champions Tour Final Stage Q-School.

10).Happy 30th Birthday today to Lorena Ochoa. And hearty congratulations to Catriona Matthew for winning last week's Lorena Ochoa Invitational in Guadalajara.

And then he dodged a bullet. Kim with a surprising jump. Who knows.

Same happened to Bubba, Ned. Just think how it would have played without a day full of rain yesterday!

Actually think it's been playing hard but very fair; the toughest greens seem to be 3 and 4, a touch more benign after that.

Course has been the star for me, so far at least.

First three guys in the order coming up trumps for Shark. Ogilvy batting clean up and he needs to beat Bill Haas to emphasise the statement. Tough ask for all of them though.

Chopra still leading but odds on he'll find a way to lose.

Kim 3up over Simpson
Ishikawa 3up over Watson

Who would have predicted these?

It's not over yet, but looking like a keen contest.

Scott is 2up over Phil.

Would be something if the last 4 matches actually mean something.

Good night to watch late night TV.

Leff wrote:Kim 3up over Simpson
Ishikawa 3up over Watson

Who would have predicted these?

Me?!

Agreed about the course, that's what I said at the outset that I look forward to seeing and I haven't been dissapointed... fabulous!

Chopra did find already the way to losing it...

Coverage of all the matches just about to be prejudiced by Tiger's arrival.

Greg Norman must be thrilled so far. Even the Goose is in on the act.

New bottle of Grouse just being opened. Almost as good as the golf.

US leading in 4, Int leading in 4.

Scott 2up over Phil

Watney 2up over KJ Choi (C'mon KJ, you have to do better than Kim)

Elsewhere, Harrington just one shot in arrears with nine holes to go in Malaysia.

Pity Dustin Johnson is not playing against Jason Day . . . . . .

Choi and Allenby need to turn things around for their side to have any chance. What a shot by K.J.

KJ just pulled a spectacular bunker shot to cut his deficit to 1.

Jason Day is the 'flop of the day'.

If you told me Jim Furyk is 70 years old, I would believe you. He is doing well though, thanks to Ernie's poor display.

Johnson is playing as if all his energy was sapped out by playing with Tiger.

Norman is telling Jason Day that if he wins he will find him a bride.

Allenby, Day and Ernie look to have no chance following current form.

He's got a bride, which could well be the problem.

Ishikawa is dominating Bubba.

What do I know?

Norman should have picked Vijay over Allenby.

The way Jason Day is playing, golf is looking like a silly sport.

Kim has lost a 3-hole lead over Simpson.

About five matches will finish in the next half hour. Then the challenge for the Internationals will be even clearer.
Reports of Woods' demise premature. Couldn't play too much better than he has today.
Odds on he'll win Chevron?

One up now though.

Couple of nice hole-outs by Choi and Goosen early on, but American putting is winning the day.

International team has won 3 (kim, Schwartzel, Ishikawa) and US 1 (Mahan).

Of the remaining, the most International can win is 4 matches. Scott has almost won. If Ogilvy keeps his 1-hole lead, and if Goosen and KJ can turn things around.

Tiger, Toms, and Stricker have nice leads.

So, US is on its way to bag yet another President's Cup.

Don't look know but Goosen has lost three holes in a row.

Regardless, much more interesting than I expected five hours ago.

KJ is gone.

Allenby, captain's pick - blank, blank, blank, blank

Johnny Miller just said it all:
"These guys are all friends. It's not a war like the Ryder Cup."
In that case, why play it?
Too bad.

Nice win for Luiten, Harrington in a big tie for third, still a good result one would think.

Too little, too late, says Adam Scott. Understatement from an understated guy.

A little bit tighter in the end, but still an air of a sideshow with this event. The Europe and USA are where the real strength in World golf is so any competition without either side is missing something.

Looks like it was a good last day contest, but overall a pretty comfortable win for the Americans. I thought Norman's pick with Allenby looked like a poor one (I undersatnd it was known that he was going through a divorce in this period), and probably if he had instead the other 'hot' young Korean, Bae Sang-Moon or Oosty, things could've been closer. But overall, not sure if all the added hype of this year has changed too much the general appeal or worthiness of this event...

I liked also one of Doug Ferguson's remarks:
"Goofiest thing about Presidents Cup: If the International team ever wins, where does the trophy go?"

Well done American squad!

Watney pulling away from KJ reminiscent of what he did at Aronimink, Tiger getting the clinching "W", things turned around nicely for the Americans before all was said and done.

I thought the course set up was great and hope the USGA was taking notice. Shorter classic venue that tested all parts of a short game without being tricked up.

Far better for the tournament that it went down to the penultimate match, but it's still in the same bracket as the Seve/Vivendi Trophy. So lacks a bit of credibility for me.

pd,
I didn't know the Allenby divorce snippet.
Strange day in the end; but I agree with super_realist that, if the Internationals can't win when five of the Team are at home, chances of another win anytime soon are remote. Sideshow for the next three runnings of the "Cup".
Sense among the Australians that staging the Cup was the victory, not bloody winning it.

Remember the great, one and only Mick Channon many years ago when Saints were a second division club and beat someone (Palace, I think - I should know, I was there!) in the Cup semi-final and they interviewed him in the bath after the game (no advertising hoardings in sight):
"Wonderful achievement, Mick, how does it feel to be going to Wembley?".

Mick: "It feels great but there's no poiint in going just to show up, we've got to win the bloody thing."

And they did, beat Man Utd, 1975? Bobby Stokes and all that.

I think the Aussies forgot about the winning bit, they barely showed up.

'Course, Mick Channon is a great man in many ways, but I thought of that when Norman's team came out so flat in the foursomes.

I really think Hunter Mahan might just have come of age this week.
And Woods played flawless golf without a team-mate (surprise, surprise), meaning that Badds and Yang were wasted as tail-enders.
Odds krom kwiniland bookmakers have Woods odds-on favourite for Chevron, just the tournament for him. Then off for Abu Dhabi's millions, as Finchem clenches his teeth.

Just read some comments by Greg Norman following his loss.
Seems he has to refer to the PGA Tour if the Internationals wish to:
1).Change the order of play - fourball first, foursomes second, and:
2).Change the way the International Team is selected, which is currently antiquated and not reflective of current form.

Ooh, and I've just heard that Celtic have agreed that all Old Firm games are henceforth to be played at Ibrox with Rangers management choosing the Celtic team.

How bloody stupid can you get.

Incomprehensible and Norman only has himself to blame for accepting those Finchem rules. NBC must love it though, no inequity there, just an American "W" gift-wrapped for Thanksgiving.

kwinigolfer wrote:pd,
I didn't know the Allenby divorce snippet.

Heard it from one of the Sky commentators the other day who was saying that 'it's in all the papers', etc... Found something here....
http://m.brisbanetimes.com.au/sport/golf/allenby-finds-comfort-in-sharks-embrace-20111104-1mzue.html

pd,
Great article! Thanks!!

I've always had a lot of time for Allenby, have followed him quite a bit and spent nine holes walking with Allenby"s "life coach", a California-based refugee from Dover. Imagine he's fired along with the caddies!

But no matter how much I might like him, why put himself in the mix for selection when his mind is so clearly elsewhere? He missed a tiddler on his first hole vs Toms and it was all downhill from there. Norman deserves better than that sort of effort.

How do you like the notion, which I only just realised, that the Internationals have to conform to rules laid down by the PGA Tour, even when they're the Home Team? Bloody Finchem. Reminds me more of Dubya every day.

kwinigolfer wrote:How do you like the notion, which I only just realised, that the Internationals have to conform to rules laid down by the PGA Tour, even when they're the Home Team? Bloody Finchem. Reminds me more of Dubya every day.

Utterly weird to be honest! Now I like it (the PresCup) even less...
It's like you organise a war between two armies instructed and led by the same general (that's a far too flattering word to associate with Finchem)...

A close friend of mine played in a pro-am with Allenby last year. Had nothing but great things to say about him. Some players that compete in those events can be very distant to the group. Not Allenby - a class act.

Blaming the format on their loss .

If the internationals wanted to get better at foursomes, perhaps they could practice it against each other more.

Is that our Dover or yours Kwini? Not that either is exactly a golfing hotbed....

I guess the PGA Tour can muscle in on away Pres Cups because they haven't got any equivalents for the International side. In the RC it's fairly obvious that the ET represents "Team Europe", but for the Internationals I guess you'd have a mishmash of the Japan, Sunshine, Aussie and 2x Asian tours. Not ideal!

Sr,
I'm not criticising playing foursomes (silly saying Ryo should be practicing 4-somes with, say, Ernie though, you know that); tough titty if the Internationals are not good enough, but Norman apparently wasn't allowed to change the order of play so that the Teams could play fourballs first. Seems to me that should be the Home Captain's prerogative, but not in Finchem's world.

I think this week has proved the Pres Cup format is unworkable and needs fundamental change. Whichever way you cut it, there will only ever be four or five International guys playing at home, and then under US rules. When the matches are in the US, 12 of the Internationals are playing away, in Australia, for instance, seven were.

You can roll your eyes as much as you like but if this is ever to be anything beyond an exhibition, it needs to change in a big way.


PS: Just down the road from you, I think!
(A couple of years ago I stood on the cliffs there watching the logistics of the ferries and trucks - mesmering for a logistics guy!)
Answers coming on a postcard. Or at least Ballwasher Notes.

Kwini - If the outcome of the matches were the same, and only the order changed, the final score would be the same. Yes, I will roll eyes at suggesting the order of things affects the final score. All those years the US got spanked by the Euros because they dug a big hole in the team matches and I never heard anyone suggest the order of things should change in that event.

Norman absolutely didn't have to accept what Finchem wanted. He could have not participated. There are plenty of other people who I'm sure would captain that team. And maybe even keep their ego in check.

Love the irony that Norman criticized Freddie picking Tiger and it was Tiger's "W" over Badds that put the final nail in Norman's coffin.

Yes, well, I said pretty much exactly that a few posts ago - almost looks like Norman was cajoled into accepting the Captaincy and in return he got the Melbourne matches but not other things he might have wanted. His choice, as you say. You else would you have suggested? Mark O'Meara, Larry Nelson?? Only being partly facetious. Tim Finchem reminds me of Paul Bremer.
I think Norman was most frustrated because, of course, it's easier to familarize oneself with a new course when you're playing your own ball. Regardless, the Home Captain should be able to determine the order of play.
And Norman should have kept his mouth shut about Woods, no question.

Captains for Muirfield Village?
Vijay Singh?
O'Meara??

Very interesting article PD. Thanks.

As to whom gets to choose the format, I can only assume this falls to the pga as, presumably, it controls the purse strings and, therefore, has to pander to US tv ratings in order to maximize the dosh factor?

Whatever the reason, it goes against a sense of fair play that the other team has no say in how the match is formatted.

The concept of a friendly match is sheer fantasy btw. As this match progresses year on year and the International team becomes increasingly sick of being creamed, hopefully it will insist on a more equitable format or ... no match!

For example: ditch the 4somes format on the first day and replace it with a greensomes format. Given the yanks have a distinct advantage (thru' 4somes play in the Ryder Cup) coupled together with the impracticability of the international players being able to practise this format (puhlease Shotrock, you had to be joking?), surely this would be fairer?

kwinigolfer wrote:
Captains for Muirfield Village?
Vijay Singh?
O'Meara??

Not sure if Vijay is convinced that his time with regular PGA is ending. I think he believes he is still good enough win another major.

Should Vijay be the captain, there is one certainty. Tiger will not be captain's pick.

kwinigolfer wrote:

PS: Just down the road from you, I think!
(A couple of years ago I stood on the cliffs there watching the logistics of the ferries and trucks - mesmering for a logistics guy!)
Answers coming on a postcard. Or at least Ballwasher Notes.

Spent all summer working in a petrol station down by Dover railway station Kwini

Leff wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:
Captains for Muirfield Village?
Vijay Singh?
O'Meara??

Not sure if Vijay is convinced that his time with regular PGA is ending. I think he believes he is still good enough win another major.

Should Vijay be the captain, there is one certainty. Tiger will not be captain's pick.

Why would the fact that Vijay is the International Captain affect whether Woods got a captain's pick? (under the assumption I guess that he doesn't make the team on merit)

Regarding Vijay, I'm not so sure he didn't remove his name from consideration for Greg Norman's choices. But he's got a long way to go to return to anywhere close to his best. 2011 saw a couple of fine results, but otherwise was very inconsistent. Doesn't much matter what he putts with, the ball's just not going in the hole. Ernie: Take notice!
If not Veej, I'm not sure who would be the Captain for The Internationals. But it seems the PGA Tour makes the call on both Captains, which explains a lot about their role in making the Pres Cup competitive. Or not.
'Course, it's not so long ago that the Internationals rebelled against the PGA Tour's choice (David Graham?) and someone else (Peter Thomson I think) was substituted!

I do not quite understand how a format change has much relevance to the international team’s perceived disadvantages on the board. It is not like a couple of rounds of foursomes every two years make the Americans better or more practiced in the format. If the format is set in stone by Timmy W Finchem then both teams know what to expect and how to prepare. The simple fact is that the internationals had a good few players in very bad form and the Americans seemed more intent on winning the pres cup.

A more pertinent point is whether the pres cup does indeed have much of a point these days? One tie and one International win in 9 events seems like a bit of a non event. The only way I see this thing even begin to resemble a contest is if the Asian men start to produce talent at the rate and quality that the women’s game does.

As for the selection basis being an issue for the International team I just don’t see it, top 10 in OWGR rankings seems the perfect system, if like me you rate the OWGR system, and there can be no complaints. If your top ten from the OWGR are as poor as some of those on the international team currently are then it is the lack of quality and not selection system that is at fault.

I ask, who else could the Internationals have picked to help their chances?

After what Vijay revealed about himself in making those comments about Anika I hope never to seem him awarded anything with the hint of honour about it. Wait a second……..does he in fact deserve to captain the ailing international team?

I think Mac has it pretty much spot on.
Its really difficult to see how the Presidents Cup can gain any momentum. I suspect, though I dont know this for a fact, that by far the vast amount of hype and interest in the Ryder Cup is still generated in GB & I. I really cant believe its as big a deal in France or Italy or even Germany and Spain. But they do provide additional quality players to make the match competitive. And the team is at least bound together by being the same continent, however spurious a reason I personally find that for forming a sports team it as least one up on what the internationals can do.
The International team just doesnt have a big enough core support anywhere to give the event any passion.

What did Vijay say about Aneka?

Bit like the Vivendi/Seve Trophy Digs, if you exclude one of the two golf powerhouses, there's never going to be as much interest in it as if Europe and USA go head to head.

I think that Europe are perhaps fractionally more enthusiastic about the RC than the Septic's, but I feel the gap is closing. I think next year will see a pretty partisan crowd, who I hope will be as much fun as the European crowd at Celtic Manor were.
The difference in America is where you hold it, eg. Kiawah Island and Brookline produced a much more vociferous crowd than Muirfield Village for example, whereas in Europe/UK the golf fans are always going to travel wherever it is held.

Mac,
No excuses for Norman and/or his Team. All I'm saying is that Finchem is at the controls of both Teams.
I've never played a video game but my son regales me with the alleged thrills and spills of FIFA 2012, Madden, etc.
Regardless of how well he does, you can bet he'd do worse if someone else had control of his Team and the opponents.
I've made at least three points:
~Finchem chooses both Captains.
~Finchem chooses the order of play, no Home team option to make a switch.
~Finchem controls the selection process. The point about the owgr's, the merit of which we agree on, is that they're judged on owgr points earned over two years, not one year or an even shorter period. Whereas the US qualification period is heavily biased to current year results. Like you, I'm not sure that would have helped much this year as it was Jason Day and Adam Scott with the best owgr positions who really failed to deliver.

Also agree with Digs, except don't think Mac has quite got it spot on, see above!


Davie, Can't remember the exact details now but Veej made disparaging comments many years ago when Annika was invited to play in the Colonial tournament. Others might have thought it, but couldn't possibly say it, but Vijay did. Bloody stupid and hope he now regrets it and has modified his views. Turned out to be some of the most compelling first two rounds viewing I've ever enjoyed.

s_r:
Muirfield Village wasn't even all-ticket, so low were American opinions about likelihood of anything other than a whitewash. (Which of course is almost what they got!) Most noise there was from the Europeans - US Team couldn't figure that out.

Kwini

“I've never played a video game but my son regales me with the alleged thrills and spills of FIFA 2012, Madden, etc.
Regardless of how well he does, you can bet he'd do worse if someone else had control of his Team and the opponents.
I've made at least three points:
~Finchem chooses both Captains.
~Finchem chooses the order of play, no Home team option to make a switch.
~Finchem controls the selection process. The point about the owgr's, the merit of”

To continue the fifa 2012 anaolgy and to tacke these points.

Finchem chooses both captians.

I have major doubts about how much the captain can influence the match other than the picks and few team talks, but anyhow an unmotivated team without the correct incentives will not perform regardless of how great a speech a captain can deliver. In fifa 12 terms this is a little like someone else earning your team spirit points and getting to select a couple of your subs. It will make little difference if you or the players on the team you select are not of sufficient quality.

Finchem chooses the order of play, no Home team option to make a switch.

I cannot believe this is even being rolled out as an excuse for any teams lack of ability. No matter what the format you are still playing matchplay golf and should be able to win if you are good enough. It is the same for both teams and it would only ever be a hunch with no evidence that one format was biased towards one team and not the other.

In computer game terms a good fifa player should be able to win no matter what the match set up option are.


Finchem controls the selection process

Not really, how can you complain about getting your top 10 from OWGR, I know you know how the OWGR system works so not sure you really believe this make a difference to the event. In an ideal world of choose anyone you want who would you have picked?

Back to fifa, if someone else choose your team you would still be using your own ability and skills to play the game.

Comparing real life to a computer games is a very strange analogy.
Not sure it works at all.