Scott Johnson - is he right about Dan Biggar?

First topic message reminder :

Scott Johnson, on the BBC, is criticising the Welsh for not loving Dan Biggar. He's saying the Welsh have a love affair with the Barry John type of flyhalf and Dan Biggar doesn't fit into that mould. Despite mentioning Neil Jenkins and Stephen Jones in the article he still maintains that Biggar will never play for Wales while that mentality is there, is he right? or, as I suspect, is he talking out of somewhere the sun definitely doesn't shine from?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15748274.stm

Comfort wrote:Tovey is a talented player, for sure, but when was the last real high-pressure game he played in? Let alone shone in? Not tried internationally. Needs to be injured less and needs the Dragons to get into high pressure matches (be they amlin cup final or whatever).

Biggar has performed under big pressure a number of times.

This is the kind of logic that led to Jonathan Thomas amassing a load of caps - 'oh, he plays for a successful side so let's select him over a more talented player from a less successful side.' Thankfully Gatland has seen the light on that one, even if you haven't.

I'm sorry but when was the last time Ospreys were in a high pressure game and won anything ? They are massive underachievers !

Biggar isn't normally playing behind a retreating pack - Tovey is and stilll maintains composure.

The last time Ospreys came to Rodney parade Tovey gave you a rugby lesson

im a blues fan guys, and if im being biased well, i dont think I'd get away with pushing sweeney forward for this debate....

biggar has led the ospreys to win the magners against leinster in ireland, that may have been 2 seasons ago, but he has done it and proved he can handle big pressure.

Tovey on the other hand hasnt performed in a situation like that because hes never been exposed to it, and for all we know, he could crumble like a cheap biscuit when thrown in the deep end of international rugby without pressure-situation-experience beforehand. or, he might well 'pull a north'.

point i'm making is, Biggar has performed under more pressure than Tovey thusfar in their careers. If you're arguing that, well, theres no arguing with you

Jonathan Thomas was picked because for a number of years wales lacked backrow players (let alone a 6 with some dog that was actually fit) of a good calibre. I was always angered seeing JT/Ryan Jones/Powell published on the team sheet, but for a long time, who did we have showing continuously better form? Who wasnt actually just flavour of the month? Just sayin.

but anyway....


Sweeney for wales?

Sweeney used to be a good solid dependably flyhalf, with a run of games he still is, but Parks gets the nod over him every time. Not sure what blues coaches are thinking.

Mind you being an Ospreys fan I am never too sure what crazy things our coaches are thinking half the time.

With the squad the Ospreys had, they should've won the Heino at least once.

Did Bigagr play the whole game or was he substituted for someone more reliable as seems to be his normal form ?

Comfort wrote:biggar has led the ospreys to win the magners against leinster in ireland, that may have been 2 seasons ago, but he has done it and proved he can handle big pressure.

Tovey on the other hand hasnt performed in a situation like that because hes never been exposed to it, and for all we know, he could crumble like a cheap biscuit when thrown in the deep end of international rugby without pressure-situation-experience beforehand. or, he might well 'pull a north'.

point i'm making is, Biggar has performed under more pressure than Tovey thusfar in their careers. If you're arguing that, well, theres no arguing with you

I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is that it's not Jason Tovey's fault that he hasn't played in big matches as Dan Biggar has (albeit in the increasingly distant past). By your criterion, Toby Faletau and Dan Lydiate wouldn't have gone to the World Cup.

Saying Tovey hasn't been involved in any high pressure games is the same argument you could use for most young players - but North, L Williams, S Williams JD2 & Lydiate all shone, as well as Prydie, Halfpenny and Dr Bob, and many others crashed and burned, even Biggar to an extent (though I do think he was unfairly treated) - the only way to find out is to give Tovey a chance

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Saying Tovey hasn't been involved in any high pressure games is the same argument you could use for most young players - but North, L Williams, S Williams JD2 & Lydiate all shone, as well as Prydie, Halfpenny and Dr Bob, and many others crashed and burned, even Biggar to an extent (though I do think he was unfairly treated) - the only way to find out is to give Tovey a chance

^

This

guys, im not using it as an argument at all, just stating facts about previous games and the amount of pressure heaped on them as young players.

i then went on to say

"and for all we know, he could crumble like a cheap biscuit when thrown in the deep end of international rugby without pressure-situation-experience beforehand. or, he might well 'pull a north'. "

the only reason i brought it up was that you will get a better idea of a players capabilities to sink or swim at international level the more high pressure games they play at club level.

to me, players like lydiate and faletau, "pulled a north", meaning they showed they were born to play international rugby without playing in those high pressure club games.

its not the be all and end all whatsoever, but it can help judge a players mental fortitude.

Actually, I think players who don't play in the most star studded teams behind a huge stable pack are more likely to do better

Like Lydiate and Faletau

Faletau always used to be under massive pressure to get the ball away from the back of the scrum.

I don't see any reason why Tovey would crumble as he's been through the same crucible as the above two players and regualrly plays with them.

The way I judge a player is, yes I do use the big high pressure games, but I also try and look at the players overall skills and just as important their consistency.

The way I see it is that Biggar is more consistent with the boot, althought Tovey's not too shoddy at place kicking - with one of the highest percentages in the league 2 seasons ago I believe. And he's very very good kicking out of hand. But Tovey brings the backs into the game more and gets the team moving - he runs intelligently and is generally consistent.

Biggar can play a very good controlling game and putting the team in the right areas and bringing players into the game - but equally he can have off days where he chooses to kick all the time and spends a lot of the time moaning at the ref or his fowards.

Which is why I prefer Tovey - plus he's the more attacking flyhalf (not in a Hook sense though)

I think Tovey has a more similar understanding of the game lying in front of him to Priestland, which would have its benefits, where as Biggar offers a different game plan.

Though i dont think Biggars alternative is strong enough to warrant his selection.

Am I the only one who sees Tovey as more of a fullback?

As a non Welshman my observation is that Priestland is a country mile in front of both Biggar and Tovey at the moment and these guys have to improve significantly before being viable contenders for the Welsh jersey.

geoff998rugby wrote:As a non Welshman my observation is that Priestland is a country mile in front of both Biggar and Tovey at the moment and these guys have to improve significantly before being viable contenders for the Welsh jersey.

Correct. BUT with Jones getting on and Hook playing away we can't just rely on the Priest. I think Tovey is more valid option than Biggar to be the heir apparent

munkian wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:As a non Welshman my observation is that Priestland is a country mile in front of both Biggar and Tovey at the moment and these guys have to improve significantly before being viable contenders for the Welsh jersey.

Correct. BUT with Jones getting on and Hook playing away we can't just rely on the Priest. I think Tovey is more valid option than Biggar to be the heir apparent

Why do you say that?

flyhalffactory wrote:

munkian wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:As a non Welshman my observation is that Priestland is a country mile in front of both Biggar and Tovey at the moment and these guys have to improve significantly before being viable contenders for the Welsh jersey.

Correct. BUT with Jones getting on and Hook playing away we can't just rely on the Priest. I think Tovey is more valid option than Biggar to be the heir apparent

Why do you say that?

For all the reasons I've stated in this and several other threads - Biggar is still a stroppy primadonna who has had chances to shine in the star studded Ospreys and Wales.

Tovey is calm and collected and played behind light weight forwards and still kept his cool.

maestegmafia wrote:I think Tovey has a more similar understanding of the game lying in front of him to Priestland

That's the key thing for me. The reason Priestland was such a success at the World Cup was that he was able to play to the game plan but he also took the right option at the right time. That awareness is invaluable because there's no way a coach or anyone else can predict how a match is going to unfold. I'm not convinced that Dan Biggar has that awareness, or if he does, he's not as capable of acting on it. When he has to think on his feet, his first instinct is to kick.

True - kick it anywhere. We don't need to go back to those dark days

Dan 'can i kick it this game even more than i did in the last game?" Biggar.

gives me shudders at times.

Agree with the above...

+1

CurlyOsp wrote:Am I the only one who sees Tovey as more of a fullback?

Probably. However out of the two I think Dan Biggar shows more full back qualities, but he also still lacks that counter-attack or just attack in general instict in this area of the field.

I think we all agree, whilst they all show weaknesses in certain areas, we are very blessed to have a number of flyhalves with different qualities coming through.

In Priestland we have someone who I think could be something very special.

We then have challengers in the shape of Hook/Tovey/Biggar...... Sweeney

And then the up and coming youngsters with potential

Steffan Jones
Steven Shingler
Matthew Morgan
Jordan Williams

These are just the players I have knowledge of, no doubt you guys will know of more.

Maybe the factory's back chugging away.....

I quite like the idea of Tovey being used as a FB as I think he has all the qualities - but he is mainly a flyhalf. Still it gives us options...

Morgannwg wrote:

CurlyOsp wrote:Am I the only one who sees Tovey as more of a fullback?

Probably. However out of the two I think Dan Biggar shows more full back qualities, but he also still lacks that counter-attack or just attack in general instict in this area of the field.

I don't understand where people are running down his ability to make creative try scoring opportunities, which is vastly different to "headless chicken "front page headlining" running going nowhere fast" that the public crave (well certain sections of the welsh public)

Dan Carter
"I am not a running back, I try to make the right calls that usually means a short pass or a kick"...." I try not to be a front or backpage headlining back"

Biggar can counter attack with the best of them, he has had quite a few MOM performances in massive matches (Leicester, Biarritz, and last week) and not just for his kicking, the 09/10 ML cup final, shows Biggar using his timed passes in two different scenarios the first a dink pass, and the second a loop pass to perfection

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxbBjIlaLcE

Plus he defended well in that match

I made a reply earlier on in this topic, nobody or very few repied to it. Wales in very few matches have more than 50% of the ball, more often than not it is between 35 and 45%. I have to admit I've seen very little of Tovey this season, but on past seasons his tackling is inept to say the least, sometimes it is dangerous to himself. As I said with the opposition having 60% of the ball the OH needs to be able to tackle.
As the name of the article portrays is SJ correct, yes he is because basically the number of replies on this topic dealing with the defence rather than the attacking instincts of the players is negligible

I'd never say Tovey's tackling is inept - it's better than Hooks for a start. And I'd say being behind the Dragons pack and being used to having little possession would be a plus - rather than being used to having the lions share of possession and having to adapt when playing for Wales.

Well in the end if all we were after is someone who can attack and nuts to defence then Arwel Thomas would have been the Welsh record cap holder, not Stephen Jones, so the point doesn't really stand up........and certainly doesn't vindicate Scott Johnson.

Turkster wrote:Well in the end if all we were after is someone who can attack and nuts to defence then Arwel Thomas would have been the Welsh record cap holder, not Stephen Jones, so the point doesn't really stand up........and certainly doesn't vindicate Scott Johnson.

Turkster if you look at the selection policy of Wales since 2005, they have first and foremost selected a "perceived" playmaker.... noteably Hook more times than Jones, in fact in 2005/6 Hook played as much as Robinson, Sweeney, Jones put together, and its gone on before that Iestyn Harries, Arwel Thomas, Henson etc etc. Stephen Jones has produced the caps he has inspite of the media and certain fans clamour for a "Flairy Saviour".

Any other country (apart from Oz with Cooper) would have played the Jones/Priestland/Biggar/Tovey type of 10 first and foremost but in Wales you go for the "Headliner" Iestyn Harries, Arwel Thomas, Henson, Hooky etc etc, then when it all goes pear shaped bring on Jones to tidy up....... its taken six yrs for the Welsh set-up and public to realise these maverick players in the pivotal flyhalf role lose you games not win them.

Thankfully Mr G is beginning to smell the cappuccino................ and no SJ is not talking through his derriere

Priestland can be quite flaky, even within matches he can have off periods e.g. when he lost the SA game for us with that missed sitter of a drop goal.

If Jiffy hadn't had gone north NJ wouldn't have won half his caps, even then they dropped him for Arwel on a few occasions, and Wellies would not have won half his caps if Hook and Henson had measured up. From my first posting I've followed it every day, and the VAST MAJORITY of posters have referred to the ATTACKING ATTRIBUTES, not the Defensive responsibilities of the relevant players, so as SJ correctly said that there is an over emphasis of the stereotypical attacking OH. Before this season Tovey was inept as a tackler, it was either early last season or the late the previous season where he was injured by having his head on the wrong side in a tackle, the majority of tackles in the 10 channel following that was done by the back row. He is only slightly better than Mathew Morgan who is kept out of the defensive line in most instances by the Ospreys.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Turkster wrote:Well in the end if all we were after is someone who can attack and nuts to defence then Arwel Thomas would have been the Welsh record cap holder, not Stephen Jones, so the point doesn't really stand up........and certainly doesn't vindicate Scott Johnson.

Turkster if you look at the selection policy of Wales since 2005, they have first and foremost selected a "perceived" playmaker.... noteably Hook more times than Jones, in fact in 2005/6 Hook played as much as Robinson, Sweeney, Jones put together, and its gone on before that Iestyn Harries, Arwel Thomas, Henson etc etc. Stephen Jones has produced the caps he has inspite of the media and certain fans clamour for a "Flairy Saviour".

Any other country (apart from Oz with Cooper) would have played the Jones/Priestland/Biggar/Tovey type of 10 first and foremost but in Wales you go for the "Headliner" Iestyn Harries, Arwel Thomas, Henson, Hooky etc etc, then when it all goes pear shaped bring on Jones to tidy up....... its taken six yrs for the Welsh set-up and public to realise these maverick players in the pivotal flyhalf role lose you games not win them.

Thankfully Mr G is beginning to smell the cappuccino................ and no SJ is not talking through his derriere

I have to admit, that bolded bit made me laugh out loud, just amazing that Neil Jenkins and Stephen Jones managed as many caps as they did with 'the Welsh set-up' being so flawed in their thinking, and of course Jinks and Wellies NEVER lose form, there NEVER seems to be a player in better form than them who gets tried out, and don't even start me off by using Iestyn (costalotta) Harries as an example of your theory. And of course let's just forget that Wales tried their attacking brand of rugby mid-noughties because they didn't have the forwards to go toe-to-toe with the big guys, so all this points to the guff handed out by SJ as being 'correct' in your eyes? amazing really.

wayne wrote:If Jiffy hadn't had gone north NJ wouldn't have won half his caps, even then they dropped him for Arwel on a few occasions, and Wellies would not have won half his caps if Hook and Henson had measured up. From my first posting I've followed it every day, and the VAST MAJORITY of posters have referred to the ATTACKING ATTRIBUTES, not the Defensive responsibilities of the relevant players, so as SJ correctly said that there is an over emphasis of the stereotypical attacking OH. Before this season Tovey was inept as a tackler, it was either early last season or the late the previous season where he was injured by having his head on the wrong side in a tackle, the majority of tackles in the 10 channel following that was done by the back row. He is only slightly better than Mathew Morgan who is kept out of the defensive line in most instances by the Ospreys.

Jiffy really isn't a good example for you to use, he may be small with a squeeky voice, but he's as hard as nails, anyone poor defensively wouldn't have made it in rugby league as he did. In case you hadn't noticed Tovey can't get into the Welsh setup, some fans are calling for him to be there, but he isn't there, so just maybe they do think of that side of his game too.

Turkster

Why amazing? , who banged on about form....... you stated that if the Wales set-up selected a "flairy10" then how come SJ etc had so many caps and I just gave you FACTS e.g. in 2005 Hook played 10 more than the other three players put together ........... whats amazing about that??

We are talking 2011 not 1991, defence and attacking styles are different, the welsh coaching set-up are always under pressure to creat the "Welsh Way" of attacking so select an "inovative" 10 first and foremost with Jones sub, they normally muck it up during the game, Jones came on does well, then gets picked until the next flairy 10 comes along

However in 2011 Gatland has picked Priestland who is structured but attack minded, and Biggar who is close to his style of play, check out his games against Leicester (HC) Leinster (ML Final) and Biarritz (HC) in these games his passing game was equal to his kicking game similar to the way Priestland plays

looks like we'll have to agree to disagree, your view on how Wellies got his caps is insulting to a great player. If you think Biggar's as good as Priestland that's your view and your view, just about, only. I can't see the point in continuing this discussion.

Don't put words into my mouth Turkster

Posters on here know I think Stephen Jones was your best player for over a decade. I am giving you facts not opinions, Jones played many times as a reserve, 15, or even 12 during his 104 cap career, I think this was due to the fact that the coaches picked a "flairy 10" instead................ as per SJ comments on Wales craving obsession with a creative halfback

And I didn't say Biggar was as good or worse that Priestland, I said he is similar in player style i.e. Stuctured but Attack minded

Turkster, very few and I'm not one of them think that Biggar at the moment is as good as Priestland, but apart from just after the Fiji game, Biggar was rated by WG as better than Tovey and obviously since the start of the season WG thinks he is better than Tovey now. I'd say he is on a par with SJ, but as in WGs eyes as SJ will not be around for 2015 that is why DG is in for the Aussie match.

Turkster wrote:Tovey can't get into the Welsh setup, some fans are calling for him to be there, but he isn't there, so just maybe they do think of that side of his game too.

He's trained with the Wales squad before and would probably have been capped on tour a couple of seasons ago if the Dragons hadn't had to play a Heineken Cup qualification playoff match.

He was in the WC setup but got injured in training.

Toveys biggest problem seems to be turning to skittles when touched.

fhf is not alone, I agree with him , plus I would go even further , I think I've already said this before, biggar will eventually be the holder of the 10 shirt for wales. I see more developmental potential for him than priestland.

priestland is good, but I think we've seen all he has. biggar has a lot more to give; if he does so the 10 shirt will be his. my opinion of course, and it does rely on a player reaching his potential ( we've heard that before! )

so, big question , will he reach his potential at the ospreys?

gavstar wrote:biggar has a lot more to give

You could say that about any one-dimensional player.

Really Gavstar? - I'd say the complete opposite - Priestland has been improving consistently for the last 3 seasons and seems to have the complete package of skills (ok maybe he's not in the ROG standard of place kicking). While I'd say Biggar hasn't improved much over the past 2 seasons, and while he's still young seems to not show much apptitude for getting his backs moving, playing whats in front of him or taking the right options - things that are more instinct than trained into someone.

He does some things really well, but I don't think he's shows a huge amount of potential to improve his weaknesses.
Just my opinion of course but I feel that Tovey and Priestland have the potential to become much more complete players and bring the best out of the other backs.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Really Gavstar? - I'd say the complete opposite - Priestland has been improving consistently for the last 3 seasons and seems to have the complete package of skills (ok maybe he's not in the ROG standard of place kicking). While I'd say Biggar hasn't improved much over the past 2 seasons, and while he's still young seems to not show much apptitude for getting his backs moving, playing whats in front of him or taking the right options - things that are more instinct than trained into someone.

He does some things really well, but I don't think he's shows a huge amount of potential to improve his weaknesses.
Just my opinion of course but I feel that Tovey and Priestland have the potential to become much more complete players and bring the best out of the other backs.

I agree, what are you basing this Biggar love on ?

its not 'biggar love' just call it as i see it.
when he was first in the welsh set up they saw a talented player, but he didnt crack it straight away. howley told him 'youve got the skills, re invent your game' johnson said 'he's doing fine, we are very pleased with his game'when he was asked to make a comment on howleys comment

great mixed guidance for a young head!! but he's got that 'bite' that a 10 needs, and he's stuck with it. he has steered ospreys to some good wins, has had mom a few times, his kick /pass ratio has certainly improved
and his positional play is very good .Also, watch him without the ball, he really anticipates play very well. I can see a lot of good things in his thinking during the game.

we need 2 or 3 10's at the same level. if i dont reply soon to any comments i'm on a school run in a minute.

What about his temper tantrums., his inconsistent points kicking and pointless aimless kicking ?

munkian wrote:What about his temper tantrums., his inconsistent points kicking and pointless aimless kicking ?

+1

temper tantrums he's had more than most, but they are waning, aimless kicking- not much of that in his game this season, in fact last game he looked to pass most of the time, drop goal attempt was not on and he should have passed.

as far as inconsistent points kicking, missed 2 last game, but in fairness he's been very good over the posts. lets go from this season, just give him another look. not a likeable personna we are led to believe, but those who actually know the guy say he's professional , takes the game seriously and is a perfectionist, which leads to the arrogant tag.

we need another 10 along with priestland, we cant have the 1 man band in any position, now is our chance with so many coming thru to build in depth.

the press is so powerful and will latch on to headline making statements, they will be first up you bet with a war between two 10's, they have niggled away at the game for years. we need to put the game first, i've had enough of this 'peoples choice' nonsense, its the coaches choice at the end of the day.

biggar has not played enough at international level to be judged, and neither has priestland, its earl doors for both, lets see what develops without personal preferences which sometimes dont let us see everything a player can bring to the table. off to watch taped blues, school run +++ just ended!!!

munkian wrote:What about his temper tantrums., his inconsistent points kicking and pointless aimless kicking ?

When did he last have a temper tantrum? ,............... well tell us

Look at the stats this term I would say his accuracy is second to none (thats why he has been called up!!!)


More importantly what about his MOM awards lately