New names and faces for england team

Ok guys.
So Johnsons gone, for better or worse.
But which new names and faces would you like to be included?
I'd like to see Armitage given Cueto's space on the wing, permently.
Also Robshaw at 7 for me.
I'd have 12trees at 12. Tuilagi outside him.
Have Corbs, Hartley, Cole as the starting front row.
Pair Attwood and Lawes together. Maybe give a very young number 8 some game time. I expect Haskell to come back and claim the 8 shirt for a number of years though.
What do you think?

I'd like to see Delon Armitage never play internationally again.

IMO England has a discipline problem and people like him are of no use to them.

Armitage isn't a winger.

I can't understand what the obsession is with England fans playing our players out of position!

Lots of fans of Flood at inside centre till the world cup....

One fan chrisrobshaw for england wants Manu Tuilagi as a winger.

How about this as a out of position backline?

9.Foden
10.Flutey
11.Armitage
12.Flood
13.Banahan
14.Tuilagi
15.Monye


In all seriousness my 6 nations XV

1.Corbiserio
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Lawes
5.Attwood
6.Croft
7.Wood
8.Fearns
9.Youngs/Care
10.Flood
11.Sharples/Short/Wade
12.Barritt
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

1.Corbiserio
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Lawes
5.Attwood
6.Croft
7.Wood
8.Fearns
9.Youngs/Care
10.Flood
11.Sharples/Short/Wade
12.Barritt
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

That's a good team - and frankly better than anything England put out at the WC !

Owen Farrell at Sarries should be looked imo

I wouldnt be too cocky if Wales had to play that England team be.

However dont England really need to find a ceo and a coach and a performance director before thinking about the squad?

offload wrote:1.Corbiserio
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Lawes
5.Attwood
6.Croft
7.Wood
8.Fearns
9.Youngs/Care
10.Flood
11.Sharples/Short/Wade
12.Barritt
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

That's a good team - and frankly better than anything England put out at the WC !

I'd largely agree with that starting 15 although still question marks for me about who we would have at 8. I'd personally have Robshaw over Wood and think it would be too soon to include Wade and tbh would worry about him facing chunkier wingers, the likes of North, Trimble etc.

I really can't understand why Armitage is so highly rated, he should only be considered full back for England and IMO is number 3 behind Foden and Brown.

Attwood, Sharples & Baritt have to and should be involved.

Barritt is a decent player - but not really someone who will scare international backlines.

I say try Farrell at 12 (with the long term view to see if he can be the No10).

So for 6n a backline of Youngs/Flood/sharples/Farrell/Tuilagi/Ashton/Foden.

Manu's longer term future may be at 12. So if with some experience Farrell supplants flood, Manu can step one place in opening up an OC berth for the likes of Trinder/May etc.

I'd say he's number two actually.
Not a Barritt fan if I'm completely honest..

Another who likes Beshocked's team. Not 100% convinced by Attwodd yet, would maybe give Parling a try but otherwise the team I would have picked. For me Barritt is more than deserving of a chance at the number 12 shirt. I would have Farrell on the bench covering 10/12.

I reckon Beshocked is really Martin johnson in disguise - seeing as 11 of his team were at the WC and barring injuries the starting Lineup for the 6N would probably have had all bar Fearns in if MJ had stayed.

I just cant go along with

6 Croft
7 Wood

Wood is one of my favorite players.....but we need some more power at 6....

Tycroes osprey too much hype for Farrell at the moment. Needs to settle in a position IMO. Is he a 12 or 10? I don't know yet. Hodgson is helping with his development.

LondonTiger true Barritt might not scare international backlines but why not give him a try first though? Agree with what you are saying though,

Bring the boom true about Wade but I threw him in there as there is clamour for his recognition. Also agree about no 8 but we need fresh blood.

B91212 I agree about Attwood. Not massively convinced myself yet but has Parling really done enough?

Squad of 30 would look something like

Props:Cole,Marler,Stevens,Corbisierio
Hookers:Hartley,Thompson (for now)
2nd row:Parling,Attwood,Lawes,Robson
Backrow:Robshaw,Wood,Croft,Fearns,Easter,Seymour
Scrum halves:Youngs,Care
Fly Halves:Flood,Lamb
Centres:Barritt,Tuilagi,Trinder,Farrell
Wingers:Sharples,Ashton,Short,Wade
Full Backs:Foden,Armitage

LondonTiger funny guy.

I think my 30 man squad would look radically different.

To break down the representations of teams:

Northampton:6
Leicester:6
Quins:5
Saracens:4
Wasps:2
London Irish:2
Gloucester:2
Bath:2
Sale:1

Wheres the Newcastle representation!!!

Flood is in there.

HHmmmmm......

Aside from the players already mentioned, I'd like England to look at

Matt Garvey- SR- London Irish
Jonny May- WG/ Centre- Gloucester

Either on the fringes of the EPS or in the Saxons.

beshocked wrote:Tycroes osprey too much hype for Farrell at the moment. Needs to settle in a position IMO. Is he a 12 or 10? I don't know yet. Hodgson is helping with his development.

LondonTiger true Barritt might not scare international backlines but why not give him a try first though? Agree with what you are saying though,

Bring the boom true about Wade but I threw him in there as there is clamour for his recognition. Also agree about no 8 but we need fresh blood.

B91212 I agree about Attwood. Not massively convinced myself yet but has Parling really done enough?

Squad of 30 would look something like

Props:Cole,Marler,Stevens,Corbisierio
Hookers:Hartley,Thompson (for now)
2nd row:Parling,Attwood,Lawes,Robson
Backrow:Robshaw,Wood,Croft,Fearns,Easter,Seymour
Scrum halves:Youngs,Care
Fly Halves:Flood,Lamb
Centres:Barritt,Tuilagi,Trinder,Farrell
Wingers:Sharples,Ashton,Short,Wade
Full Backs:Foden,Armitage

I think Parling deserves a shot, kind of for the same reasons as Barritt. May not be the flashiest player around but is very solid, does the basics very well, excellent in the line out, carries well, has played at 6 so is pretty mobile and is also good at the breakdown. Potentially allows others to do the more eye-catching stuff. Doesn't seem to give a lot of penalties away either, which can be an issue for second row forwards.

Otherwise other than Wade (would give him a year in the prem and Saxons) and Seymour (not convinced, but not sure who else I would have in there) then your squad is about right for me. Would maybe swap Joeseph at LI (if fit) for Wade. Sorry GeordieFalcon, no north easters in my squad either

my 6 nations side would be

1.Sheridan
2.Hartley (C)
3.Cole
4.Lawes
5.Attwood
6.Croft
7.Haskell
8.Easter
9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Monye
12.Flutey
13.Tulagi
14.Cueto
15.Ashton

For the six nations I'd go

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Attwood
Croft (c)
Wood
Easter
Youngs
Flood
Sharples
Farrell
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden.

Armitage does not play wing like a top level international should. He can cover there, but he lacks the instinct and abilities of a dedicated winger.

Tuilagi's future does not lie at IC, his natural game doesn't suit what we need from a 12, his talents are maximised far more in the outside channel.

well he's been scoring more tries than Cueto has!

B91212

Well your off my christmas card list aswell.....

In all honesty....theres probably not a huge number of changes to be made to the team and squad.

12 needs fixed...as does the back row....but the rest needs some good coaching to get them working properly and consistantly....

flankertye wrote:well he's been scoring more tries than Cueto has!

Well, first off, that's not true. Even maximising his stats, Armitage has scored 2 tries in his last 5 games, whilst Cueto has scored 4. But in general, that's not really saying much, solely in terms of tries Cueto has to have been one of the poorest performing top tier wingers in recent years. So, even if it were true, it certainly doesn't mean there aren't better options.

If we are looking to move forward with regards to wingers...then why not look at the top performing ones - namely Wade. IF he is still performing to a high standard come the time for naming the squad and he is showing no signs of fear playing the bigger teams...then put him in.

God do you think the Aussies and the Kiwis etc would say hhmm well he might be a little small....or too young....NO....look at O'Conner etc...put him in and give him gametime....EVEN if he makes the odd mistake....

Completely agree, there are wingers in scoring form queueing up.

Wingers are usually the international position with the highest turnover, so we may see several players tried before the squad settles. But an international wing needs to have excellent defensive qualities. Foden and Ashton are nailed on for now, so the third spot is likely to go to whoever offers the best blend of attack and defense.

Monye has the skills and physical attributes but has had a bad run of injuries. Sharples is probably the most complete candidate who's actually fit and in form. Please, please not Banahan.

I'll actually cry if Monye or Armitage are given another chance. Both terrible wingers, not fit to clean Wade's/Short's/Sharple's boots.

Calls for Fearns are a little premature, seeing as he has missed the past 5 games for Bath injured, whilst if he manages to get selected ahead of players such as Simon Taylor, Lewis Moody, Francois Louw and Guy Mercer that in itself will be an achievement, whilst if he plays at number 8 then i'm sure he'll be a contender for England.

Attwood is another player who needs to nail down a starting spot in the Bath XV if he wants to be involved in the England set-up, at the moment he is currently behind Caldwell and Hooper at Bath.

'Cricketfan90' - Haskell won't be available for selection for the six nations as he will be playing for the Highlanders in the super 15.

I very much agree with a couple of posters who advocate the inclusion of George Robson and Geoff Parling ahead of Louis Deacon.

Steve Thompson is no longer needed when we have the likes of David Paice and Rob Webber in such good form coming through.

This would be my England XV for the first match of the six nations...

15. B.Foden
14. C.Ashton
13. M.Tuilagi
12. B.Barritt
11. C.Sharples
10. T.Flood
09. B.Youngs

08. T.Waldrom
07. T.Wood
06. C.Robshaw
05. G.Robson
04. C.Lawes
03. D.Cole
02. D.Hartley
01. J.Marler

16. A.Corbisiero
17. R.Webber
18. G.Parling
19. T.Croft
20. D.Care
21. O.Farrell
22. M.Brown

With D.Wilson, D.Paice, D.Attwood, C.Fearns, D.Seymour, J.Simpson, B.Twelvetrees, J.Joseph, M.Banahan, C.Wade & T.Homer in the squad as well.

mostly agree with robshaw4england, but I think in the EPS players have to be swapped for the players who are to replace them. These are the players I would replace

Andrew Sheridan - Joe Marler
Delon Armitage - Mike Brown
James Haskell - Carl Fearns
Jonny Wilkinson - Owen Farrell
Lee Mears - Rob Webber
Lewis Moody - Chris Robshaw
Louis Deacon - George Robson
Mark Cueto - Charlie Sharples
Mike Tindall - Brad Barritt
Nick Easter - Tomas Waldrom
Richard Wigglesworth - Danny Care
Shontayne Hape - Billy Twelvetrees
Simon Shaw - Dave Attwood
Steve Thompson - David Paice
Tom Palmer - Geoff Parling

Is Marlers scrummaging up to international standard?

And i just plain dont want Waldrom anywhere near the squad....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Marlers scrummaging up to international standard?..

If the ref knows what he's doing, then yes. But Joe is still learning how to cope with all the tricks of the trade. If his current form and learning curve continue, he should be ready to tour next summer.

I'd go with a squad of something like:

Props
Alex Corbisiero, Joe Marler, Matt Stevens, Dan Cole

Hookers
Dylan Hartley, Joe Gray

Locks
Courtney Lawes, Geoff Parling, Dave Attwood, George Robson

Flankers
Tom Croft, Tom Johnson, Chris Robshaw, Tom Wood

No. 8s
Luke Narraway, Tom Guest

Scrum Halves
Danny Care, Ben Youngs

Fly Halves
Toby Flood, Owen Farrell

Centres
Jordan Turner-Hall, Billy Twelvetrees, Manu Tuilagi, Henry Trinder

Wingers
Miles Benjamin, Ugo Monye, Chris Ashton, Charlie Sharples

Full Backs
Ben Foden, Mike Brown


Cut the crap. I mean, seriously, it's absolute nonsense to believe that a young squad can't dominate world rugby. Age doesn't necessarily equate to experience and with most of the young players I have included composure seems to come naturally. If I were England caretaker, I would happily field the following and expect them to win any game in the Six Nations:

1 Corbisiero
2 Hartley
3 Stevens
4 Lawes
5 Attwood
6 Wood
7 Robshaw (C)
8 Guest

9 Care
10 Flood
11 Monye
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden

I really don't believe that team should have any problem standing up to anyone else. The core of 2, 8, 9, 10 are experienced with the exception of Guest but he combines so well with Care and Robshaw at Quins. In fact, Quins are a case in point. They adopt the mantra that if you're good enough, you're old enough. That's why players like JTH seem so much older than they actually are (I can't believe he's only just turned 23!) - because they have developed alongside players in the same age bracket as them and have formed partnerships...

Now to justify the above selection:

Props can chop and change really, although I think Stevens really shores up the scrum most of the time. Lawes and Attwood provide good balance in the engine room. Robshaw has to be captain. A backrow of him, Wood and Guest is powerful and dynamic and also competitive at every breakdown given the stamina, pace and groundwork ability of all 3. Also a great back 5 for lineout time. In terms of Robshaw playing 7, I think it's high time England chilled out and adopted the right and left notion of flanker play. It's modern and it basically means blindside and openside share the workload in everything they do. There are no individual roles - both tackle, carry, ruck. Wood and Robshaw as a combination would be perfect in this way... Care is England's form 9 since none of the scrummies at the World Cup did anything much. Flood carries on at 10 but if he's nothing special, Farrell has to be given a shot - he is England's future. The centre partnership has the necessary physicality but also Twelvetrees' ability to distribute and Tuilagi can be nurtured into a tackle-breaking offloader. Ashton is under pressure at the moment having lost a bit of form and Monye is the left wing counterpart needed - wingers should never be the same style! Foden keeps the 15 shirt for now but Brown is looking phenomenal, man of the match more often than not currently and rightly so!

I just don't subscribe to the idea that we must have some gnarled old boys to mix in with this lot and keep them ticking over. It's working so well at Quins at the moment letting the more energetic, fitter, stronger, faster young players loose on the opposition. The game is becoming more and more about pace and I think that needs to be the key word going forward. Let's play at pace - let's pick fast, strong, naturally gifted players rather than guys that have wracked up the mileage.

RugNut

Why is there so much love for Twelvetrees? Seriously what has he actually done?

Rugnut bar Twelvetrees and no Brad Barritt that's a pretty good team.

Twelvetrees just has a skillset that reminds me a little of Greenwood. We have needed a centre as good as Greenwood at keeping the opposition guessing from 12 for a long time.

I really feel that once we sort out the centres, we will be laughing - people really underestimate the importance of a formidable centre partnership. I'd argue they are as important as fly half, if not more for the very fact that they receive the ball with the defence a few yards further onto them and must find a way of releasing those outside backs that every team wants to or else making space for themselves and taking it. That involves pace, strength, brain. Simple. Forget experience, let's have a look at how good the rugby player is and how effective they are!

I actually don't get the hype over Barritt. He seems to me to be good at best. As you can probably tell, I'm looking very much at the future and 2015 in particular and I just think Twelvetrees and JTH could turn out to be much more inspired choices given their youth and success already at their clubs.

RugNut

Fair points Rugnut - You cant pick Guest till he has had time back from injury.
The same is for Monye, although his injury was fairly minor compared to Tom Guests.
Narraway isnt even starting for Glouces. - didnt he come on as a sub for Stronkosh.
Not convinced about Attwood yet - but we do need a bit of a brute to counter the more athletic Lawes in the 2nd row.
I agree that Stevens got a bum deal being swapped positions in the WC - he really just needs to stick to tighthead and is solid.
Appart form that I really like your squad.

"1 Corbisiero
2 Hartley : - Grey/ Webber
3 Stevens : - Cole
4 Lawes
5 Attwood
6 Wood
7 Robshaw (C)
8 Guest

9 Care
10 Flood
11 Monye - Wade
12 Twelvetrees - Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden"

Not bad....but id change the highlighted

With the players England have we really shouldn't be worried, just need a decent coach who picks players on their past performances for club and country and not be afraid to drop the big names, and all new players must 1st play in the Saxons not bypass this team and get a free ticket to full international honours, otherwise what is the point of the Saxons?

PropDavid:

Yeah, OK, granted I'm being hopeful with a couple of picks. Guest is due back any time and I, along with most Quins fans, see him as Easter's successor at both club and country almost immediately. He rarely seems to have a bad game. Monye had a great start to the season and is also due back imminently.

Narraway has started half of Gloucester's Prem games so far this season, but I always find him impressive. I think England need to move on from Easter - he's been a stalwart for a while now and I have the utmost respect for how he has offered himself for the past few years but we need to bring the younger guys through. Narraway to be that man until Haskell is back in the UK.

Attwood has promise - he looks like he could be in white for a good few years to come.

GeordieFalcon:

I also have not been impressed with Hartley - he is very much on his last chance this Six Nations I feel. Gray really is pushing him hard for the 2 shirt in my eyes but I just don't know if anyone at England has noticed him. He has been a revelation at Quins and I really feel he's looking good for the hooker shirt very soon.

Don't agree with you on the others but I think they are all down to personal preference. Stevens/Cole is a tight one. Monye for me just has the straight line speed and power I think we need on one wing at the moment. Wade I would always worry about defensively, especially with not very much Premiership experience so far - give him till the end of the season to see if he still hasn't been worked out by defences. Barritt, see above.

RugNut

Hype over Barritt? There hasn't been much at all! The only hype comes from myself as I rate him very highly.

Barritt is an old man at the age of 25 is he? He is younger than the likes of Ben Foden, George Robson,Toby Flood etc.

What success has Twelvetrees had at his club? He personally hasn't won any silverware. Yes he has put in some good performances but he lacks consistency. He gifted one of his team's main rivals a win on a silver platter when he could have won the game.

His lack of matches is there for all to see. Also it's ludricous to consider him when he's injured.

In comparison Brad Barritt has been the defensive lynchpin of the Saracens backline. He has been consistently one of the best inside centres in the AP for the last two seasons. The only back to be in the top 10 for most tackles made in the AP. One of his tackles against Balshaw on the weekend was an absolute beauty.

In terms of distribution he is underrated, he is regularly seen at first receiver and is creative.

In terms of effectiveness he is one of Saracen's best players. He is also in excellent form.

On the contrary I see Barritt as a underrated player.

Barritt for me is a slightly older, poor man's JTH now that JTH has come of age at the end of last season and so far this season. Twelvetrees' success for me lies in the fact that after only 1 season in top flight rugby, he looks as though he's been playing for years and looks as though he is going to be integral to Leicester's chances over the next decade (of course just a prediction).

With these things there is always going to be personal preference though. I'm also looking at the combination in midfield and I don't think Barritt/JTH + Tuilagi works as well as Twelvetrees + Tuilagi (who also play together at Leicester). Either way, there are a few good options there I guess!

RugNut

Thoughts on the team.

1) Corbisiero has to start at LH surely? Stevens was rubbish in the WC, and Corbs did a good job every time he came on, yet Stevens kept his place. Why?

2) I'm a fan of giving Baritt a go at IC. I confess to not knowing a huge amount about him, but he's been in and around the squad for a while, is actually a proper 12, and surely deserves a chance?

3) Sort out the back row. It was good in the 6N, but then when Moody came back the balance went. With haskell unavailbale I'd go Croft Robshaw Easter, but we could really do with finding a proper 7 (now Armitage is away in France).

Apart from that, the team pretty much picks itself

Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Palmer (if he's available, can't remember exactly, otherwise Attwood or Deacon)
Croft
Robshaw
Easter
Youngs
Flood
Sharples (or another, but Sharples has my personal preference right now)
Barritt
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

not even sure Armitage is going to be first choice at LI this year with the emergence of Homer (who looks like one for the future to me), and really he's too indisciplined for me, so wouldn't have him in the squad right now...

I think Barritt would work a lot better along side Manu then JTH.

What we need is the right coach to be able to mould players to their positions. Like we saw Henry do with Nonu over the seasons.

Give Barratt and Manu a run and hopefully over the course of a season we'd see the partnership form.

And why has no one mentioned Parling? Currently he's playing better then any other Eng lock going (Lawes has been very good with his workrate but that's almost like a second 6 rather then a classic lock), him and Lawes would be brilliant in the engine room and he would more then make up for us maybe not having Croft at 6.

The funny thing is that Twelvetrees finds it difficult to nail down the 12 spot at Leicester yet you want to pick him there for England?

Twelvetrees needs to play matches. You can't just hand him England caps on a silver platter before he has earnt them.

Poor man's JTH? shame that JTH keeps getting outplayed every single time they meet. Can't remember the last time JTH was part of a Quins team which beat Saracens.

Props:Cole,Mullan,Wilson,Corbisierio,PDJ
Hookers:Hartley,Thompson,Grey
2nd row:Parling,Attwood,Lawes,Robson
Backrow:Robshaw,Wood,Croft,Fearns,Easter,Seymour
Scrum halves:Youngs,Care,Simpson
Fly Halves:Flood,Hodgson
Centres:Barritt,Tuilagi,Trinder,Twelvetrees
Wingers:Sharples,Ashton,Short
Full Backs:Foden,Brown

I'd go with that as my 32. Reward those in good form and introduce some others with talent by getting them to train with the squad. I don't think Farrell is ready and I think England need Hodgson's experience if experiments are happening in the centres and the backrow. Farrell should use the chance created by Hodgson's call ups to game time for Sarries at 10.

Team;
Corbs, Thompson, Cole
Lawes, Parling/Robson (whichever is in the best form)
Corft, Easter, Robshaw
Youngs, Flood
Barritt (a certainty in current form), Manu
Short, Foden, Ashton

Bench; Grey, Wilson/PDJ (they cover both sides), Attwood, Wood/Seymour, Care, Hodgson, Trinder.

Hartley isn't playing well enough to start at the moment.

Barritt for me is a slightly older, poor man's JTH now that JTH has come of age

No, just no. Barritt is in better form and has much better hands and footballing skills. JTH still looks to contact a little too much and is still to keen on running into the opposition at speed before looking to pass.

beshocked wrote:The funny thing is that Twelvetrees finds it difficult to nail down the 12 spot at Leicester yet you want to pick him there for England?

Twelvetrees needs to play matches. You can't just hand him England caps on a silver platter before he has earnt them.

Poor man's JTH? shame that JTH keeps getting outplayed every single time they meet. Can't remember the last time JTH was part of a Quins team which beat Saracens.

Although I agree with everything going there and as a Quins fan was a little embarassed by the whole 'poor mans JTH' comment, we can't really blame one player for Saracens just being a lot better then Quins, and if you look at everything that way then you'll be telling me that Farrel is better then Evans.

And FYI it was spring 2009 at The Stoop. You boys were pretty pants that day.

yappysnap wrote:And why has no one mentioned Parling? Currently he's playing better then any other Eng lock going (Lawes has been very good with his workrate but that's almost like a second 6 rather then a classic lock), him and Lawes would be brilliant in the engine room and he would more then make up for us maybe not having Croft at 6.

Agreed. We need guys that are flexible and are going to work hard, Parling definitely fits that bill. I think that there is some depth developing in the lock position at the moment. Another drum I've been banging for a while is Matt Garvey of London Irish. In some way he looks exactly what England needs. He is strong, abrasive and athletic. The pool of promising young(ish) locks is growing!

Geoff Parling
Courtney Lawes
Dave Attwood
Matt Garvey
George Robson

And potential Saxons players:

Joe Launchbury
Graham Kitchener

Parling is now 28/29 I don't think that counts as young. Talented he certainly is and probabley the best lineout operator in the league.

If Kitchener is a possiblle Saxon then Slater should be as well, Slater kept him out of the team at the start of the season and has shown good form this year.

If that's the case then really Kitchener needs to leave Leicester, we need the young guns getting as much game time as possible.