Irish Centre and No.7 Issues

by tafka iwoveyou Wed 16 Nov 2011, 4:09 pm

So with the season well underway have we learnt an awful lot regarding these issues?

At the world cup it was proved to us that we need an out and out seven for the next and that we preferably need to start this Six Nations. I suggest we drop Heaslip and move O'Brien to 8 as i think Heaslip is out of form.

That leaves the seven slot open with the main candidates being:

Leinster;

Shane Jennings. The most experienced but never proved himself on the international stage. Should he be given another chance and if he is and is successful, will he last until 2015 where he will be 34. Also, he has to start for Leinster, which I think he should, so hopefully Schmidt will bring him back in.

Dominic Ryan. Whenever i have seen him he has looked really good but probably isn't getting as much game time as he has hoped for. I thought by now he might have broken into the first team or even the bench. Hopefully he improves and gets more opportunities, Six Nations is definitely coming too soon for him.

Ulster;

Willie Faloon. I some really good things about him last season but isn't in the first team yet. Also, I don't think he has played for the Wolfhounds even.

Munster;

O'Mahoney. Looks to be the only candidate making serious progress and looks very good. If he's good enough i'd give him a run out in the SN. He also seems to have that Munster fighting spirit in him.

I would give Jennings and O'Mahoney run outs during the Six Nations and wait until Ryan and Faloon break in their first teams.

With O'Driscoll out injured and D'Arcy coming to end I believe we should play a totally new partnership/s in the SN.

For twelve you have

McFadden
Fitzgerald
Trimble

For thirteen

McFadden
Bowe
Spence
Cave
Earls
Griffin
O'Malley

At the moment i would go for either 13 Bowe 12. McFadden/Fitzgerald or 13. McFadden 12. Fitzgerald.

I know Cave, Spence and Earls would be right up their but I think that Earls is best on the wing and I haven't seen enough of Cave or Spence.

On an ending note, seeing as O'Callaghan as he is getting on and that he did not start against Northampton and the recent good form of Ryan and Tuohy, is O'Callaghan's place up for grabs?

by **rodders** Wed 16 Nov 2011, 4:15 pm

Chris Henry has been in very good form for Ulster, hence Faloon not starting and gave a storming performance at 7 against Clermont. He's not an out and out 7 but deserves consideration on current form.

Cave has been in superb form since his return from injury last season and deserves to be amongst the front runners for the 13 shirt. There's a good article on him in the Irish times today. His achievements at underage level for Ireland are pretty remarkable and he's still only 24.

by tafka iwoveyou Wed 16 Nov 2011, 4:30 pm

The reason I haven't selected Henry is that he is not an out and out seven. If you leave O'Brien at 7 you could consider him for 8 if he is in that form.

Good to hear about Cave doing well, sounds like he's probably the front runner along with ,cFadden seeing as they both start at 13, Bowe dose not.

by red_stag Wed 16 Nov 2011, 4:44 pm

I like the idea of evolution not revolution. If pushed for an Ireland team right now:

01 Cian Healy
02 Rory Best
03 Mike Ross
04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Paul O'Connell (c)
06 Stephen Ferris
07 Shane Jennings
08 Sean O'Brien
09 Conor Murray
10 Jonathan Sexton
11 Andrew Trimble
12 Paddy Wallace
13 Darren Cave
14 Tommy Bowe
15 Rob Kearney

16 Sean Cronin
17 Tom Court
18 Donnacha O'Callaghan
19 Jamie Heaslip
20 Isaac Boss
21 Ronan O'Gara
22 Fergus McFadden

Injuries: David Wallace, Keith Earls, Felix Jones

by red_stag Wed 16 Nov 2011, 4:47 pm

You'll have noticed I've gone for Shane Jennings and the Ulster centre partnership rather than the Leinster one of Darcy-McFadden.

by **rodders** Wed 16 Nov 2011, 4:51 pm

James Downey was the most impressive Irish 12 last weekend IMO.

Also no POM or Henry stag?

I'd have Touhy ahead of O'Callaghan to. He was monsterous against Clermont.

by red_stag Wed 16 Nov 2011, 4:55 pm

No. We have had a few issues recently.

- Second Rows - Brought Ryan into the starting team
- Centres - A settled centre partnership thats playing well together
- Backrow - O'Brien at flanker doesn't work. Let Jennings play, drop Heaslip.

Bringing in the likes of Henry, O'Mahony, Downey, Tuohy on top of that is overkill and needless. There is enough change in the team I gave.

by **rodders** Wed 16 Nov 2011, 5:14 pm

Its not overkill to pick the best players stag. The 4 players you've mentioned are 4 of the best performing in the country this season.

We are talking Hypothetically anyway.

Paddy Wallace and Darren Cave won't be the starting centres in the 6N any more than Jennings starting 7.

Downey blew Mafi away, whereas Wallace and D'arcy had mixed games and that should at least be acknowledged .

by B91212 Wed 16 Nov 2011, 5:14 pm

You say you left Chris Henry out of the open side mix because he isn't an out and out 7? He was an absolute beast at the breakdown against a very good Clermont back row at the weekend. Was always very fast there and turned over ball - just because he isn't a link man doesn't mean he should be over-looked in my opinion. He played better than I've seen Jennings play for a while, that's for sure.

Anyway, I'm English so what do I know. If he hadn't already been capped I'm sure we would be checking his grandparents! I'm also a Saints fan and think that DK missed a trick with Downey - could have been an excellent foil for Sexton & BOD.

by red_stag Wed 16 Nov 2011, 5:18 pm

Downey did well but I think a settled Ulster pairing offers more than an untested uncapped centre who hasn't played in Ireland for half a dozen year. I don;t see him linking up that well with the team.

Pick your best team; not your best players.

by Rava Wed 16 Nov 2011, 5:23 pm

Stag I actually like the look of that team, but I would maybe keep the back row as we had it for the WC.

by red_stag Wed 16 Nov 2011, 5:40 pm

I can't abide O'Brien at 7 be it for Leinster or Ireland. I feel it is affecting Heaslips game at the minute and moving him to 8 will allow him the freedom to carry. I would have Wallace at 7 I just fear for his injury.

That team I picked is a "if we played this week" type of thing. By the 6 Nations it could be that Earls-Barnes is the best centre pairing for all we know. Still almost 4 months away with 5 rounds of Heineken Cup as well as the domestic leagues.

by FitzStephen Wed 16 Nov 2011, 6:16 pm

Right with you stag. That is our best team right now. I am not an O'Brien-at-openside fan either but feel we have three guys who can cover 6 and 8 brilliantly - why not revolve them? Happy to see Jennings at 7 but would quiet happily start Henry there. Like McCaw he was an absolute criminal at the breakdown on Saturday - he has learned to stand up in the middle of the ruck and really make it impossible for the opposition. Can't wait to see if he can back it up against Tigers.

by red_stag Wed 16 Nov 2011, 6:25 pm

Henry did have a brilliant game. However lets see if he can back it up. The way I see it: a year ago I wouldn't have even considered him. Now he's reached a stage where I considered him but decided against it. Thats an increase in stature.

Jennings, who I don't particuarly rate, is a better fit though in the absense of Wallace.

by Rava Wed 16 Nov 2011, 6:37 pm

First of all I am glad there are others that are starting to rate Henry. I have been quietly mapping his progress for a few seasons and the improvement last year and particularly this, has been significant.

With regard to the six nations Stag, you and I both know that a brand new centre pairing will just not happen. No matter how well the partnerships are performing at provincial level. Much as I would like a freshening up I can still see a safe Deccie. I whom we trust of course.

by FitzStephen Wed 16 Nov 2011, 6:49 pm

I am a big Faloon fan, but I am really glad to see Henry going well. During the WC, DK changed the half back and stuck to his guns with Trimble. He dropped Cullen for Ryan, and fast tracked Kearney straight back in. He isn't afraid of big calls so it perhaps isn't a massive leap of imagination to have Wallace/Cave for Ireland.

by Rava Wed 16 Nov 2011, 6:59 pm

Fitz, if it was anyone other than Wallace I might be tempted to agree. When D'Arcy was at his worst pre-world cup, Wallace couldn't shift him so I don't think it will ever happen Crying or Very sad

.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 16 Nov 2011, 7:03 pm

I want Bowe at 13 for Ireland.

I do agree that Downey's playing better than any other Irish 12 at the moment. But he's not based in Ireland. If we started picking average foreign based players like him it would just encourage more players to leave.

The likes of Sexton, Heaslip and O'Brien could be making more money in France. A desire to play international rugby is one of the things keeping them here.

Anyway international rugby is a step up from the Heineken Cup and I'm not sure if Downey would have the class for test rugby.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 16 Nov 2011, 7:31 pm

Hang on.. why are people against O'Brien at 7 again? Because Heaslip isn't playing well? How does that make sense?

O'Brien was great at 7 for Ireland against Australia. His best game for Ireland. He was playing with Ferris who he seems to pair very well with. Heaslip needs to improve or else Henry/POM may overtake him. Both Henry and POM's best position is 8 imo.

by ME-109 Wed 16 Nov 2011, 7:55 pm

O'mahoneys best position is openside 7.

Backrow of
Ferris 6
POM 7
SOB 8

Would be interesting. Last year O'Brien played some of his best rugby from the back of the scrum its his favourite position as well. A backrow of players playing in their favourite and best positions.

by **rodders** Wed 16 Nov 2011, 8:02 pm

Rava wrote:First of all I am glad there are others that are starting to rate Henry. I have been quietly mapping his progress for a few seasons and the improvement last year and particularly this, has been significant.

I agree Rava. Even ignoring the Clermont performance I think Henry has been one of our best players this season. He and Tuohy have been the only forwards to really front up when he WC players were away imo. I always thought of him as a decent squad man but he's become a real key man for Ulster this season and really upped his level considerably.

by tafka iwoveyou Wed 16 Nov 2011, 8:05 pm

O'Brien didn't have to face Pocock against Australia. First time he came up against a world class out and out number 7, him and Ferris got nowhwere.

As for O Mahoney at eight, is he not too light weight?

What are people's views on Ryan and Faloon, one's for the future?

Also, i forgot to add Barnes to my candidates.

by **rodders** Wed 16 Nov 2011, 8:14 pm

I've been a big fan of Faloon. He was fantastic up until the last 1/4 of the season last year. He's an out and out 7 and a very good one but I think he's hit a bit of a wall right now and physically needs to improve to make the next step up.

He's not at the races right now because he's not getting selected for Ulster, in part due to Henry's excellent form. I wouldn't rule him out for the future but he needs to find a way back in the Ulster side.

by Standulstermen Wed 16 Nov 2011, 10:55 pm

I really dont think the RWC proved anything about us needing an out and out 7. If we had one to the requisite standard then great but we dont. SOB, Ferris and Heaslip won more clean ball in the Welsh 22 than you could shake a stick at and we were impotent in using it.

Gaffney is gone so our back play will hopefully improve. If as DOD says POM's best position is 7 then he should be looked at on form. Henry needs to be more consistent but cant be discounted.

Interesting pick for your centres stag. For me Cave is Irelands 2nd best 13 at the minute (well first if you take out BOD) and it makes sense to pair him with Paddy over D'arce internationally but do you think Kidney would drop D'arcy with no BOD?

The one constant in anyones team is Fez at 6. Quite possibly our best player at the minute.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 16 Nov 2011, 11:05 pm

DOD thinks it is his best position even though we don't actually know really.. And to answer a question above, no he isn't too lightweight, he is 105kg. Same as Read and Harinordoquy. Best game I have seen him play so far this season for Munster, has been at 8, followed by 6. He has played one other at 7.

Also SOB/Ferris were the only two players on the pitch who were being used to punch holes in the Welsh defence. They were made to do everything which didn't work. Heaslip is not the force he used to be, and that is nothing to do with his "hard work". He doesn't break tackles or use his physicality anymore.

Look at France against the All Blacks. Harinordoquy and Dusautoir both dominated the All Blacks backrow. McCaw is the worlds best openside and was outplayed by a backrow which has no natural 7/fetcher.

by red_stag Thu 17 Nov 2011, 8:41 am

Hi all regarding what I think Kidney will do Id be amazed if he doesnt go for:

01 Healy
02 Best
03 Ross
04 Ryan
05 OConnell c
06 Ferris
07 OBrien
08 Heaslip
09 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Trimble
12 Darcy
13 Earls
14 Bowe
15 Kearney

by Standulstermen Thu 17 Nov 2011, 8:59 am

red_stag wrote:Hi all regarding what I think Kidney will do Id be amazed if he doesnt go for:

01 Healy
02 Best
03 Ross
04 Ryan
05 OConnell c
06 Ferris
07 OBrien
08 Heaslip
09 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Trimble
12 Darcy
13 Earls
14 Bowe
15 Kearney

+1

He will be dead to me then though boxing

by **rodders** Thu 17 Nov 2011, 9:03 am

I agree stag, if Earls is fit then he will be 13.

Personally I would stick with D'arcy at 12 but I would like to see Cave get a chance at 13. If not Cave, I'd rather see Trimble or Bowe at 13 than Earls.

Stand I agree about the 7 thing. Our best backrow is still Ferris, SOB and Heaslip. Most teams would give their right arm for that combination and the only question mark right now is Heaslip, not SOB IMO.

We didn't lose to Wales because we didn't have a traditional 7, we lost to Wales because they chopped down our main ball carriers and we didn't have a plan b in attack and we weren't able to contain their midfield when they had the ball. Ritchie McCaw wouldn't have made any difference to us, nor would SOB playing 6.

by westisbest Thu 17 Nov 2011, 10:34 am

12 McFadden
13 Cave

by **rodders** Thu 17 Nov 2011, 10:53 am

I'm not being funny but I still don't get that people are still pushing for McFadden. I haven't seen anything to suggest he's a better player than D'arcy still is.

He hasn't got great hands, isn't big, isn't fast enough to consistantly make outside breaks and is pretty poor in defence from what I've seen.

Maybe I'm being harsh but I just don't see what the Leinster fans are seeing in this guy. I've seen him play well a few times but have seen very little to suggest he's an international or even HEC standard centre.

One thing I'm 100% about is he isn't a 12. He doesn't have the skills of a 2nd 5/8th and he can't run through people a la Roberts or Nonu. He offers zero in that position IMO.

by red_stag Thu 17 Nov 2011, 10:59 am

Agree with you Rodders - I have always been thoroughly unimpressed with McFadden. I think he is a great white hope that won't amount to the level people thought.

by ME-109 Thu 17 Nov 2011, 11:12 am

roddersm wrote:I agree stag, if Earls is fit then he will be 13.

Personally I would stick with D'arcy at 12 but I would like to see Cave get a chance at 13. If not Cave, I'd rather see Trimble or Bowe at 13 than Earls.
Stand I agree about the 7 thing. Our best backrow is still Ferris, SOB and Heaslip. Most teams would give their right arm for that combination and the only question mark right now is Heaslip, not SOB IMO.

We didn't lose to Wales because we didn't have a traditional 7, we lost to Wales because they chopped down our main ball carriers and we didn't have a plan b in attack and we weren't able to contain their midfield when they had the ball. Ritchie McCaw wouldn't have made any difference to us, nor would SOB playing 6.

What is it with everyone playing people out of position. Of the four mentioned only Cave and to a lesser extent Earls play regularly for their club. I still dont get what the attraction with Cave is to be honest but there you go.

Same with the backrow..maybe I am wrong about O'Mahoney (as an example) but playing SOB who is not a 7 (and never will be) out of position weakens us (as was shown in the Welsh game).

My team for the 6ns.

01 Healy
02 Best
03 Ross
04 Ryan
05 OConnell c
06 Ferris
07 O'Mahoney
08 SOB
09 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Trimble
12 Darcy
13 Griffin
14 Bowe
15 Earls

by **George Carlin** Thu 17 Nov 2011, 11:19 am

As a neutral with admittedly limited knowledge of the Irish set up (so be nice, I am educating myself), I have two questions:

1. Why are people hesitating in playing Jennings? The man is incredibly talented.

2. Why are people so keen to replace D'Arcy? If there's a big gulf in quality between an obvious first choice and D'Arcy (who must be the international incumbent), then fair do's - but I'm not sure who that person would be.

by **rodders** Thu 17 Nov 2011, 11:27 am

George I think firstly Jennings has been unlucky to be competing with David Wallace who has been on of Irelands best players over the past 5/6 seasons.

He's had a couple of chances and hasn't set the world alight. He's done ok IMO but that isn't enough given the depth of backrow quality. I agree he's been a wasted talent and should be above Leamy in the pecking order at least.

D'arcy has been pretty poor at times which is why people have been looking for a replacment. McFadden has failed to deliver and now Spence isn't starting at Ulster, so for me we should stick with him for now. Downey hasn't even been considered which is a shame.

by **rodders** Thu 17 Nov 2011, 11:34 am

DOD wrote:What is it with everyone playing people out of position. Of the four mentioned only Cave and to a lesser extent Earls play regularly for their club. I still dont get what the attraction with Cave is to be honest but there you go.

Same with the backrow..maybe I am wrong about O'Mahoney (as an example) but playing SOB who is not a 7 (and never will be) out of position weakens us (as was shown in the Welsh game).

My team for the 6ns.

01 Healy
02 Best
03 Ross
04 Ryan
05 OConnell c
06 Ferris
07 O'Mahoney
08 SOB
09 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Trimble
12 Darcy
13 Griffin
14 Bowe
15 Earls

DOD you've contradicted yourself by moving Earls to 15? I agree it's not ideal playing people out of position but to me Earls is not a centre anymore than Bowe or Trimble.

How often have you watched Cave lately?

by ME-109 Thu 17 Nov 2011, 11:48 am

roddersm wrote:
DOD wrote:What is it with everyone playing people out of position. Of the four mentioned only Cave and to a lesser extent Earls play regularly for their club. I still dont get what the attraction with Cave is to be honest but there you go.

Same with the backrow..maybe I am wrong about O'Mahoney (as an example) but playing SOB who is not a 7 (and never will be) out of position weakens us (as was shown in the Welsh game).

My team for the 6ns.

01 Healy
02 Best
03 Ross
04 Ryan
05 OConnell c
06 Ferris
07 O'Mahoney
08 SOB
09 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Trimble
12 Darcy
13 Griffin
14 Bowe
15 Earls

DOD you've contradicted yourself by moving Earls to 15? I agree it's not ideal playing people out of position but to me Earls is not a centre anymore than Bowe or Trimble.

How often have you watched Cave lately?

I'm allowed to Cool

Nah was more thinking that Earls has also played FB and I dont think Kearney does a lot for us plus a back three of Earls/Trimble and Bowe would be very good.

I saw the highlights of the weekend only but I have watched the Pro12 this year. He is a good centre but not convinced he is international ready.

by **rodders** Thu 17 Nov 2011, 11:58 am

Fair enough DOD. I have no problem with Earls at fb actually. He was awesome against England in the 6N.

I would say on Cave that I'd have said the exact same thing about Cave 6 months ago but he's been so impressive I've totally reassessed my oppinion on him. I used to think he was a bit one dimensional but he's either improved or I didn't appreciate how well he did the subtle things, angles of running, playing with depth, reading the defence and attack etc.

by Rava Thu 17 Nov 2011, 12:37 pm

DOD wrote:
What is it with everyone playing people out of position. Of the four mentioned only Cave and to a lesser extent Earls play regularly for their club. I still dont get what the attraction with Cave is to be honest but there you go.

Same with the backrow..maybe I am wrong about O'Mahoney (as an example) but playing SOB who is not a 7 (and never will be) out of position weakens us (as was shown in the Welsh game).

My team for the 6ns.

01 Healy
02 Best
03 Ross
04 Ryan
05 OConnell c
06 Ferris
07 O'Mahoney
08 SOB
09 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Trimble
12 Darcy
13 Griffin
14 Bowe
15 Earls

DOD wrote:I saw the highlights of the weekend only but I have watched the Pro12 this year. He is a good centre but not convinced he is international ready.

Where has Griffin come from in all this. Surely you cannot on one hand say Cave isn't international ready and then shoehorn someone with limited European experience and none at senior International level. The fact is Cave has played at this level for a number of seasons. Were it not for injury at the start of last season and then Spence's form I think Cave might have snuck into Kidneys squad for the WC.
If you have watched Pro 12 then you cannot help but be impressed with his attacking capabilities

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMQMSm9jFHs

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 17 Nov 2011, 12:43 pm

We can argue about the team all season, but really it comes down to what we think Kidney is going to pick and unfortunately, I don't think a lot of our choices are going to be picked. D'Arcy is still going to play 12, why shouldn't he if McFadden can't move him.

At 13 it will be either Earls or McFadden. Neither should be our future 13 imo but I am certain that is what Kidney is going to pick.

Leave our backrow as is.. hopefully Heaslip will improve again. With a totally fit and on form backrow of Ferris, SOB and Heaslip, I would be very very scared as the opposition.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 17 Nov 2011, 12:45 pm

Rava, to me the best thing in that video is Spence's hands for the try.. fantastic little pop inside. I still want Spence to be playing at 13 over Cave, but they are both fantastic players so it doesn't really matter.

by Rava Thu 17 Nov 2011, 12:57 pm

Rory, agree re. Spence. The two tries that night were well worked team moves. Gilroy's break for Caves first was worth the entrance money on it's own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOpEEsQyxRw&feature=related

by ME-109 Thu 17 Nov 2011, 1:15 pm

Rava wrote:
DOD wrote:
What is it with everyone playing people out of position. Of the four mentioned only Cave and to a lesser extent Earls play regularly for their club. I still dont get what the attraction with Cave is to be honest but there you go.

Same with the backrow..maybe I am wrong about O'Mahoney (as an example) but playing SOB who is not a 7 (and never will be) out of position weakens us (as was shown in the Welsh game).

My team for the 6ns.

01 Healy
02 Best
03 Ross
04 Ryan
05 OConnell c
06 Ferris
07 O'Mahoney
08 SOB
09 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Trimble
12 Darcy
13 Griffin
14 Bowe
15 Earls

DOD wrote:I saw the highlights of the weekend only but I have watched the Pro12 this year. He is a good centre but not convinced he is international ready.

Where has Griffin come from in all this. Surely you cannot on one hand say Cave isn't international ready and then shoehorn someone with limited European experience and none at senior International level. The fact is Cave has played at this level for a number of seasons. Were it not for injury at the start of last season and then Spence's form I think Cave might have snuck into Kidneys squad for the WC.
If you have watched Pro 12 then you cannot help but be impressed with his attacking capabilities

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMQMSm9jFHs

Nice finish and I will keep an eye on him but something struck me about Griffin on Friday night. Good defence, sees a gap, links well with other players. I have him in as a bolter (he could easily fall flat on his face next week - but he made me think hang on a sec this fella looks good)....Cave hasnt done that for me.

by red_stag Thu 17 Nov 2011, 1:22 pm

What I like about Cave is this resurgence we've seen in him. He was the next big thing at 13 at one point. A nailed on starter for Ulster and got capped a few times by Ireland. Then he got injured and Nevin Spence came along and dazzled last year. I thought that was Cave finished.

But he's come back stronger than before. That takes mental strenght and the guy is still in his early 20s.

by **George Carlin** Thu 17 Nov 2011, 1:25 pm

roddersm wrote:George I think firstly Jennings has been unlucky to be competing with David Wallace who has been on of Irelands best players over the past 5/6 seasons.

He's had a couple of chances and hasn't set the world alight. He's done ok IMO but that isn't enough given the depth of backrow quality. I agree he's been a wasted talent and should be above Leamy in the pecking order at least.

D'arcy has been pretty poor at times which is why people have been looking for a replacment. McFadden has failed to deliver and now Spence isn't starting at Ulster, so for me we should stick with him for now. Downey hasn't even been considered which is a shame.

by Rava Thu 17 Nov 2011, 1:32 pm

red_stag wrote:What I like about Cave is this resurgence we've seen in him. He was the next big thing at 13 at one point. A nailed on starter for Ulster and got capped a few times by Ireland. Then he got injured and Nevin Spence came along and dazzled last year. I thought that was Cave finished.

But he's come back stronger than before. That takes mental strength and the guy is still in his early 20s.

You have a way of putting things simply Stag. Thanks.

by **rodders** Thu 17 Nov 2011, 1:33 pm

red_stag wrote:What I like about Cave is this resurgence we've seen in him. He was the next big thing at 13 at one point. A nailed on starter for Ulster and got capped a few times by Ireland. Then he got injured and Nevin Spence came along and dazzled last year. I thought that was Cave finished.

But he's come back stronger than before. That takes mental strenght and the guy is still in his early 20s.

Exactly stag.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 17 Nov 2011, 1:35 pm

I think the future centre partnership for Ireland will consist of a Leinsterman and an Ulsterman. At 12 Leinster have D'Arcy, McFadden and O'Malley too. At 13 Ulster have Cave and Spence. There are other players who will be looking to break this (Marshall at 12, Griffin if he shows more form, Barnes, Earls and maybe Fitz at 13) but I think Ulster have the best 13 right now and Leinster have the best 12 (which isn't saying too much right now with D'Arcy owning the shirt).

by mrsuperclear Thu 17 Nov 2011, 1:47 pm

It's interesting McFadden has come up again. I'm of the same opinion of a few of you, that he's completely overrated and has done little to deserve the praise he gets. He slots goals and played well on the wing away against Clermont one time. That's what it comes down to in simple terms, but I can't convince any of my mates about that. Every single one of them think that he's the second coming. Then again, I thought the same about Sexton years ago until he came on in that Heineken cup semi final so what do I know...

On who is going to play outside centre in the spring, I think we all know if the matches were tomorrow Deccie would play Earls or Bowe there and bring Trimble onto the wing. I think it's very premature to expect Cave/Griffin/O'Malley/Spence/McFadden deserve to be ahead of either Earls (despite how much I'd disagree with it) or Bowe though to be honest. Cave particularly has looked good this season, but there are still plenty of pro12 and Heineken cup games, so he's going to have to prove his form consistently in those first. I'll watch Saturday's match in Leicester and the later one against Clermont away with particular interest, and I hope Deccie will too. In saying all of that, I wouldn't be totally against Bowe moving to outside centre, as I think he could potentially be very good there. Just not Earls please Declan!

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 17 Nov 2011, 1:53 pm

I want:

Ferris-Heaslip -SOB

or

Ferris-SOB-POM

Totally agree with what is being said earlier that it wasn't the backrow that lost to Wales is was the lack of attacking options, and the attacking limitations of our 10-12-13.

I'd like either

McFadden-Bowe
or
McFadden-Cave

I think McFadden is a great player and don't understand why others don't see it. was reading a piece on him in the Sunday Times last weekend, in Leinster he is quicker than some of the back3 players there and lifts the most out of all the backs. I think he did very well against Munster and it's been shown that when he gets the ball he is very good at working his feet and making half breaks and driving for yards in the tackle.

I haven't seen a moment when his hands have failed him.
I haven't seen a moment (Scotland and Russia games apart)when he has been shown up defensively.

If there are these moment please tell me and I'll watch them back or what not, because I really feel this guy is playing quite well.

I can see Marshall and Spence/Bowe being the Irish centres one day
I'd hate if Earls moved into 13, really would hate it

by **rodders** Thu 17 Nov 2011, 2:02 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
I think McFadden is a great player and don't understand why others don't see it. was reading a piece on him in the Sunday Times last weekend, in Leinster he is quicker than some of the back3 players there and lifts the most out of all the backs. I think he did very well against Munster and it's been shown that when he gets the ball he is very good at working his feet and making half breaks and driving for yards in the tackle.

I haven't seen a moment when his hands have failed him.
I haven't seen a moment (Scotland and Russia games apart)when he has been shown up defensively.

If there are these moment please tell me and I'll watch them back or what not, because I really feel this guy is playing quite well.

Pete I usually agree with your views so I must be missing something. I've seen seen McFadden throw some shocking passes (against russia is one example) and I've been thoroughly unempressed with him when he's played for Ireland.

Yes he makes the odd half break or leg drive but thats about it in attack. At 23 D'arcy was tearing international defences to shreads and BOD was at 20, Trimble too was causing havock as centre. I've seen Earls, Cave and Spence make plenty of outside breaks, even Barnes.

When does he actually create anything or threaten defences? I just don't see it. All I see is a bit off a step and then he takes contact. I really must be missing something.

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