Irish Centre and No.7 Issues

First topic message reminder :

So with the season well underway have we learnt an awful lot regarding these issues?

At the world cup it was proved to us that we need an out and out seven for the next and that we preferably need to start this Six Nations. I suggest we drop Heaslip and move O'Brien to 8 as i think Heaslip is out of form.

That leaves the seven slot open with the main candidates being:

Leinster;

Shane Jennings. The most experienced but never proved himself on the international stage. Should he be given another chance and if he is and is successful, will he last until 2015 where he will be 34. Also, he has to start for Leinster, which I think he should, so hopefully Schmidt will bring him back in.

Dominic Ryan. Whenever i have seen him he has looked really good but probably isn't getting as much game time as he has hoped for. I thought by now he might have broken into the first team or even the bench. Hopefully he improves and gets more opportunities, Six Nations is definitely coming too soon for him.

Ulster;

Willie Faloon. I some really good things about him last season but isn't in the first team yet. Also, I don't think he has played for the Wolfhounds even.

Munster;

O'Mahoney. Looks to be the only candidate making serious progress and looks very good. If he's good enough i'd give him a run out in the SN. He also seems to have that Munster fighting spirit in him.


I would give Jennings and O'Mahoney run outs during the Six Nations and wait until Ryan and Faloon break in their first teams.



With O'Driscoll out injured and D'Arcy coming to end I believe we should play a totally new partnership/s in the SN.

For twelve you have

McFadden
Fitzgerald
Trimble

For thirteen

McFadden
Bowe
Spence
Cave
Earls
Griffin
O'Malley

At the moment i would go for either 13 Bowe 12. McFadden/Fitzgerald or 13. McFadden 12. Fitzgerald.

I know Cave, Spence and Earls would be right up their but I think that Earls is best on the wing and I haven't seen enough of Cave or Spence.


On an ending note, seeing as O'Callaghan as he is getting on and that he did not start against Northampton and the recent good form of Ryan and Tuohy, is O'Callaghan's place up for grabs?

Honestly I am a lot more interested in O'Malley than McFadden.

Ian Whitten has become a bit of a forgotten man. He impressed on the wing for Ulster earlier in the season.

I don't think he'll get a look in at Ulster in the centre but given Irelands lack of big powerful ball carrying 3/4's maybe he still has a big future if he can get gametime elsewhere.

He's over 16st and is capped by Ireland. He's still only 23 I think.

If Ireland want a big powerful direct runner in the centres, I think Spence is the best option. He is a better player than Whitten for me. Would you play Whitten at 12 or 13 Rodders?

Not sure what people have against Earls at 13 he is our best player in that position outside of BOD.

No he isn't. Where is your proof of that DOD?

Rory I'm not saying Whitten is better than Spence but he's much bigger than any other Irish centre bar Downey.

We don't have many 16 stone plus backs, only Downey and Shaggy. It's a good option to have as we found out in the RWC.

He's always played 12 to my knowledge Rory. He did well on the wing though but I'd definitely like to see him in the centre again.

DOD wrote:Not sure what people have against Earls at 13 he is our best player in that position outside of BOD.

DOD I just don't think he has the skill set there. His broken field running which is his main strength is shackled at 13 and I don't think his distribution skills are great. He's a very good tackler but maintaining and organising a defensive line is different in the centre and he's been caught out a few times. He's not that big or strong in contact either and you need some one who can bust through tackles.

Earls is a quality player but 13 is not his position.

I agree that he is a huge runner, but I don't think it is needed really. I actually like Whitten, but I think he is going to struggle getting games for Ulster. He should move to munster who could do with a centre.

For Ulster the way I see it we will have Wallace and Cave, and they will be slowly phased out to accommodate Marshall and Spence in the future. It all depends on form however.

Come to think of it Rodders, I can't really think of the last time he broke through a set midfield.

He gets over the gainline a lot and he does beat defenders but he rarely makes a linebreak

Beginning to rethink the opinion I've had for the past 10 months or so.

I agree with Rodders on the earls thing also.
Would like to add that most of the times earls has played well at 13 it has been through doing things a winger would 'usually be doing'

Thats what I'm saying Rory I'd like him to move elsewhere to get games.

Ireland missed the boat a bit with Downey but Whitten is still young and if he can prove himself elsewhere he could prove a valuable option for Ireland.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Come to think of it Rodders, I can't really think of the last time he broke through a set midfield.

He gets over the gainline a lot and he does beat defenders but he rarely makes a linebreak

Beginning to rethink the opinion I've had for the past 10 months or so.

Gee Pete don't start doubting the guy because I said so. I feel bad now .

You've probably watched him more than I have. I just haven't seen much to get overly excited about yet. Hopefully I'm wrong and he proves to be as good as a lot of people say.

Earls is our most dangerous winger. He's not a great center. Bowe has played in the center for the Lions when they beat the Springboks and played really well. He's also played well there for the Ospreys. He's a cleverer more well rounded player than Earls and I think can be equally good in any of the outside back positions.

Earls' main strengths are his pace and finishing ability. The wing position makes the most of his strengths if you ask me. I want to keep him on the wing. Moving Bowe to center also free's up a wing spot for Trimble, who has been really good for Ireland there when he has played.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:No he isn't. Where is your proof of that DOD?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIQ8SNzu6_E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP18Fn2Qhv4

Here you go Rory....its in the IC or OC position he is at his most dangerous in terms of breaks and tries. But he can do it from FB or Wing as well.

Feckless...see video for reference...

He is exceptionally good in the tackle and that would make him a great 12 he nearly always gets over the advantage line and he can kick very well and I haven't seen him display bad hands.

I haven't seen him break through the line however, and I have watched him a lot.

DOD-
Earls is good in the centre against weak opposition but becomes lost in attack and weak in defense against stronger defences.

DOD playing centre is not just about the odd outside break or try.

It's about running lines, getting over tha gainline, co-ordinating the defence and attack, creating space for the players around you, descision making.

Earls just isn't great at these other aspects of centre play. His strengths are broken field running and finishing which is why he's better in the back 3.

roddersm wrote:DOD playing centre is not just about the odd outside break or try.

It's about running lines, getting over tha gainline, co-ordinating the defence and attack, creating space for the players around you, descision making.

Earls just isn't great at these other aspects of centre play. His strengths are broken field running and finishing which is why he's better in the back 3.

I disagree, and I think the clips show him doing all the attacking elements. His defence is pretty solid.

Clearly for someone not very good he scores tries mainly from the second or third receiver position and even as first receiver.

At the moment he is better than anything else we have, the only reason he is on the wing is because of BOD.

I don't see it with Earls. He's been given a few chances at 13 and I don't think he's done well and I think he was extremely lucky to get in ahead of Trimble during the WC.

I think Cave has played well enough, and if he continues to play like he has, to be given a serious shot at 13.

We've got good enough 13's playing in that position regularly to not need to move someone from the wing to centre, and that goes for moving Bowe inside as well.

As for 7, if Heaslip's form doesn't pick up then whoevers playing best come February should get a chance. Move SOB to 8.

DOD, I know there are clips of Earls scoring in the center for Munster. But Jennings has been doing great things for Leinster at 7 for years. Doesn't mean he'll do it at the higher level of test rugby.

I just think Earls is a better winger than a center. And I think Bowe is a better option at center than Earls. I've given my reasons above.

Anyhoo, I think Deccie agrees with you DOD, and we'll see Earls at center for Ireland in the 6 Nations. The wrong option in my opinion.

DOD wrote:
I disagree, and I think the clips show him doing all the attacking elements. His defence is pretty solid.

Clearly for someone not very good he scores tries mainly from the second or third receiver position and even as first receiver.

At the moment he is better than anything else we have, the only reason he is on the wing is because of BOD.

No one has said Earls isn't very good?

If he's a better centre than anything else we have why isn't he 1st choice 13 at Munster? Clearly McGahan thinks Barnes and Chambers are better centres.

DOD wrote:

I disagree, and I think the clips show him doing all the attacking elements. His defence is pretty solid.


At the moment he is better than anything else we have, the only reason he is on the wing is because of BOD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY0xTtwaYw4&feature=related Not his best day at the office then.

I don't think he is the best option at 13. His best position is on the wing and his finishing from that position is as good as anyone. At times last season in the centre for Munster he was guilty of not getting passes away or when he did the accuracy wasn't there.

Feckless Rogue wrote:DOD, I know there are clips of Earls scoring in the center for Munster. But Jennings has been doing great things for Leinster at 7 for years. Doesn't mean he'll do it at the higher level of test rugby.

I just think Earls is a better winger than a center. And I think Bowe is a better option at center than Earls. I've given my reasons above.

Anyhoo, I think Deccie agrees with you DOD, and we'll see Earls at center for Ireland in the 6 Nations. The wrong option in my opinion.

I think you will find a few of the scores were in green jerseys (unless he has moved to Connacht ) and in those you will see that he has scored a number of tries at IC for the A's and OC for the senior team.

For someone not very good (i meant in relation to him being a centre). At the moment he is injured for Munster so it is hard to say what McGahan thinks (something that is a problem with him a lot of the time).

I genuinely dont think Earls has the hands for 13. To my mind he is a winger or a 15 (in fact i think Munster should try him here in Jones absence). Earls to me doesnt have the mindset to play 13. I dont mean this harshly but certainly in defence i think his mindset lacks the discipline to be the defensive lynchpin. He is more a creature of instinct to me. When he follows his instinct and goes for the gap he is devastating but i dont the same can be applied defensively.

Cave at the minute should be in the 13 shirt but i doubt he will be. When Rodders and I were arguing over Marshall and Spence i mentioned that it depends on the type of player you prefer. Of all the new/younger centre options we are suggesting Cave is the only one for me that demonstrates the top two inches. He continually ends up on the shoulder of the carrier and his try ratio must be pretty impressive. His defence is comfortably better than the other options and his passing has improved.

Griffen could well demonstrate that but i havent seen a lot of him and the one break he did make for the try against Quins was because Robshaw was taken out illegally. Beautiful delivery and timing of the pass mind you. High hopes for him.

McFadden i think has massive potential but i dont think he has delivered, partly from being mucked about positionally. Pete i saw him race up on POC against Munster much like he did against Scotland and get sidestepped by a lock. Similarly he was naive against Montpellier for their try getting levered off the ball. I feel with a settled position we will see him regain form but to me he isnt right at the minute.

The Connacht players are calling Griffin "Grico" after last week

Standulstermen wrote:I genuinely dont think Earls has the hands for 13. To my mind he is a winger or a 15 (in fact i think Munster should try him here in Jones absence). Earls to me doesnt have the mindset to play 13. I dont mean this harshly but certainly in defence i think his mindset lacks the discipline to be the defensive lynchpin. He is more a creature of instinct to me. When he follows his instinct and goes for the gap he is devastating but i dont the same can be applied defensively.

Could not agree with you more Stand. He is great also when his team is on top and bullying the opposition he can be quite poor and lost in attack and ropey in defence.

McFadden i think has massive potential but i dont think he has delivered, partly from being mucked about positionally. Pete i saw him race up on POC against Munster much like he did against Scotland and get sidestepped by a lock. Similarly he was naive against Montpellier for their try getting levered off the ball. I feel with a settled position we will see him regain form but to me he isnt right at the minute.

I remember that now yes. I can see how POC sidestepped him due to how fast he came up but if that had been a winger instead of a lock Leinster may have been in trouble. Not sure I agree with you re:Montpellier though, he could have nudged the guy and given away a penalty and got carded he wasn't expecting the nudge and I don't think he should have been expecting it.
He did demonstrate serious pace to overtake Nacewa and more a less overtake Amorossino

He did demonstrate serious pace pete but not the cuteness that amorosino showed. He is 25 now i think so if he hasnt learnt it now will he?

Darren Cave can be a sneaky wee f**cker on the pitch which is part of the reason i like him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XO12C4g_zM

watch the brady try and thats the top two inches i talk about. infuriating if you are the opposition but BOD would be proud of that

I agree totally stand its the top two inches that are key. Physically a player can develop and you can practice passing until the cows come home but ultimately its about reading what is going on around you and taking the right options.

As Tim Horan said about BOD he is 3 steps ahead of everyone else. Conrad Smith is the same.

Cave has the vision and thats what marks him out above Earls and McFadden for me, who are, to use you're words, 'instinctive players'.

Ah why does O'Driscoll have to get old!

6 nations tries

"Grico" - love it

I think I'd prefer Bowe moving in one and Trimble going in at wing than Cave.

It may well happen Pete. Not sure about Bowe's form and if he isnt playing there regularly then i think we will have missed a trick. We have the chance to bring in a new player to the setup. I think we should pick from the best guys playing in that position. By January it may well be McFadden who knows.

Could not agree with you more Stand. He is great also when his team is on top and bullying the opposition he can be quite poor and lost in attack and ropey in defence.

What sort of a nonsense statement is that. His defence (one incident against Tuilagi excepted) has been very good and the times last year when he moved to centre for Ireland he was one of the few to try to and successfully bring the ball up.

McFadden on the other hand is an IC...his defence as an OC has been poor.

DOD

I dont think Earls defence is brilliant at 13. He was at fault for Davies try in the Wales game as well. Shooting in and then stopping leaving a dogleg for Healy to defend. I dont think there are massive issues with his defence but i dont think he is disciplined enough to defend at 13. To my mind the less earls has to think on a rugby pitch and the more he can just play off the cuff the better. Just my two cents mind you. I think Kidney agrees with you

I love pace in the backline. I'd love to see McFadden at 12, Earls at 11 and Felix Jones at 15. There's some people questioning the defence of McFadden and Earls, but they can be coached into an effective defensive unit under Les Kiss if they're settled in one position.

D'arcy makes a good break here but McFadden shows there's no substitute for raw pace when it comes to finishing off a try. He showed blistering pace to score against Racing Metro last year too.

McFadden and Jones stood out in the Churchill Cup in '09 too. But neither has had a prolonged crack at test rugby yet. I think they're good enough to cause anyone problems.

Sorry Feckless the only impressive piece of centre play on that clip is D'arcy's fantastic break and pass. All that clip shows is McFadden has a decent turn of pace to run in a try. He was nearly caught by Humphreys too.

I haven't seen anything to suggest he can create anything with the ball in hand either at 12 or 13.

Running in a try is one thing but having the vision to spot a gap and the pace, power and skill to exploit it is another.

McFadden was outstanding in the Churchill cup at 12 with an excellent defence. Pity he doesnt get to play their much anymore. Would be good to see if he got a run at it

Can't believe Cave is still only 24! Seems like he's been around for years.

Hope he gets a crack at the green jersey in the 6N.

He has Don. Apparantly he played for Ireland under 21's when he was only 18 and U-19's when he was 17. He broke through to the Ulster 1st team when he was pretty young. It seems he is quite the rugby prodigy and it's only been injuries which has held him back.

Good article in the IT: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1116/1224307634614.html

Will be interesting to see how the respsective fellas at 13 play this weekend,

McFadden has got relatively ok opposition so should do well
Griffin up against Toulouse, he probably has never had tougher opponents
Cave up against a well organised defence and in a seriously hostile enviroment
Barnes has an tricky enough task but an easy one compared to Griffin and Cave.

Could do with someone really putting their hand up and shouting to DK to pick them.

for me i dont think we can definitively be making these calls just yet...remember we r stil in the 1st wk of d heineken & a few wks into the provincal season (with all the internationals bak).

For me Donnacha ryan must be the other 2nd row with o'connell n tuohy on d bench....sometimes i feel the ulster players lose out to munster n leinster players cos of a selection bias (i am a munster fan jus to state).

Bakrow is tough to call but wil be interesting to see how o'mahony gets on...i like him as a player & he reminds me a bit of alan quinlan in his attitude to the game!

centres have been a problem for the last 18months, we havent rly been making any inroads thru the midfield and its why our attack has been v lateral lately... We shud have had o'driscoll at 12 cos he has the skill set n footwork but does not have the raw pace he once had to make outside brks from 13.

At the moment as every1 has pointed out there are a number of players who cud possibly be involved; none of them outstanding candidates, which demonstrates our lack of depth. Bowe has potential at 13, cos he runs good lines but dunno does he have the skillset. McFadden is a winger at international level, he is a good runner but doesnt have the skillset, same wid earls...For me the longtime successor at 12 cud be luke marshall, seen him play a few times...good feet, good skill n a big boot...the question is, wil he develop

Cave has been the stand out 13 in Ireland this year by some distance.
McFadden geta his lines and positioning all wrong. Cave is in a different league as a 13. We all know it will be Earls thoug, who for me should stick to being a very good back three player thats where he belongs.

As for other Ulster players some differing opinions.

I thought Wallace was very good against Clermont and will be a lose against Leicester.
Henry was superb, possible his best game for Ulster , and definitely his best
at 7.
Now for the controversial ones -
I do not think Faloon will make the grade at International level.
I think Tuohy's performances this year have been over rated. He has not done enough work at the breakdown and that has been a problem - in fact I would go further I think Stevenson has out performed him - although I am clearly in a minority on this. Tuohy needs to do more of the unspectacualr work - there were good signs against Clermont that this was starting to happen

As for other players:
If we want a hard running 12. - pick 21yo Spence playing in Ireland not 30yo Downney playing in England.
Jennings isn't good enough.
Leave Trimble and Bowe on the wings. Bowe's experience at 13 is vastly exaggerated.
Toner will, like Faloon, not make the grade. Its Ryan for me who is the man in the frame

That is why I think Ryan/Tuohy would be an excellent second row combination. Ryan is a hard worker and gets the dirty work done similar to O'Callaghan, and he is very aggressive. Meanwhile Tuohy will break the gain line and be one of the primary ball carriers for the team. They would work brilliantly together.

It may well be a good combination Rory but we need to see oneof them develop into a top class lineout forward. Ryan may well be the man to do that but Tuohy isnt at that stage yet. Mike McCarthy was extremely impressive for Connacht.

all these guys are options that need tried

What does everyone think of the possibility of O'Connell lasting until the next World Cup?

Well at the next world cup he will be 35 so I think he will, it depends on the other options though, but he will be in and around the squad at least baring injury.

geoff998rugby wrote:As for other Ulster players some differing opinions.

I thought Wallace was very good against Clermont and will be a lose against Leicester.
Henry was superb, possible his best game for Ulster , and definitely his best
at 7.
Now for the controversial ones -
I do not think Faloon will make the grade at International level.
I think Tuohy's performances this year have been over rated. He has not done enough work at the breakdown and that has been a problem - in fact I would go further I think Stevenson has out performed him - although I am clearly in a minority on this. Tuohy needs to do more of the unspectacualr work - there were good signs against Clermont that this was starting to happen

As for other players:
If we want a hard running 12. - pick 21yo Spence playing in Ireland not 30yo Downney playing in England.
Jennings isn't good enough.
Leave Trimble and Bowe on the wings. Bowe's experience at 13 is vastly exaggerated.
Toner will, like Faloon, not make the grade. Its Ryan for me who is the man in the frame

I agree with every single word of this- every last word. Especially on Tuohy and Faloon. Nail. Head. Hit!

I wouldnt say Stevenson has outperformed Tuohy and i think the 2nd half against Clermont was his best play of the season but i would have him behind McCarthy and Ryan at present.

Tuohy at his best this season is miles ahead of Barker and Stevenson. At his worst he trails a fair bit behind. He's a bit of an enigma. Some games he's just a passenger where inferior players with a better work ethic would serve us much better in the core task of hitting rucks, making tackles and winning ball. When he's interested he can offer all that and more.

He will get hc gametime in midfield this year at hc level. Big year for him definitely. He was behind two players in centre pecking order for years who despite indifferent performances for ireland did just fine for leinster. He has gas which we lack however im not sure he knows how to use it. I see him as a 12 or a winger. Thought he was outplayed last week at 13. I dont think mc fadden or earls are the answer at 13. If kidney goes with darcy and earls we have two very poor distributors in midfield, a worry

Notch wrote:Tuohy at his best this season is miles ahead of Barker and Stevenson. At his worst he trails a fair bit behind. He's a bit of an enigma. Some games he's just a passenger where inferior players with a better work ethic would serve us much better in the core task of hitting rucks, making tackles and winning ball. When he's interested he can offer all that and more.

and I agree with every word of that.

He is such a frustrating player