Spanish Juggonaut : British Milk Float ...

A very interesting thread Wooffie ...........I'll look forward to reading people's thoughts on this,

Solerina

Tennis in the UK really is a secondary sport compared with the likes of Football.

So there are not a lot of youngsters involved ready to take it to the next stage.

Don't know much about the system in Spain but France also have a similar pattern with a large number of tour players.

We have the LTA who are cash rich through Wimbledon but do not seem to have the capability of encouraging or producing some of the natural talent that must be there but are hidden.

sportslover wrote:Tennis in the UK really is a secondary sport compared with the likes of Football.

So there are not a lot of youngsters involved ready to take it to the next stage.

Don't know much about the system in Spain but France also have a similar pattern with a large number of tour players.

We have the LTA who are cash rich through Wimbledon but do not seem to have the capability of encouraging or producing some of the natural talent that must be there but are hidden.

Now dont laugh me out with this one butI reckon its due to our weather system.

Football is played all year round whereas tennis is only played in fair weather (at a kids level). It snowed in Glasgow today for example!

Football is still the primary sport in Spain as well (look at LaLigas popularity - it exceeds the premiership) but due to a more favourable and consistent weather system, hitting a ball around a court is much more favourable.

Its not a daft shout about the weather. The LTA should always have this in mind with regard to any regional facilities in their plans for now and the future as indoor facilities are a must. There will never ever be another future champion if all year round facilities are not in place.

I don't really know much about Murray's early career, but why did he go to Spain to train as a youngster, rather than be part of a British system? His family must have recognised his talent, but I wonder if its ever been publicly declared as to what their rationale for sending him there was, as opposed to keeping him within our system?

Wooffie wrote:Its not a daft shout about the weather. The LTA should always have this in mind with regard to any regional facilities in their plans for now and the future as indoor facilities are a must. There will never ever be another future champion if all year round facilities are not in place.

I don't really know much about Murray's early career, but why did he go to Spain to train as a youngster, rather than be part of a British system? His family must have recognised his talent, but I wonder if its ever been publicly declared as to what their rationale for sending him there was, as opposed to keeping him within our system?

Woofie - After reading his book I think that the reaon was that his brother Jamie was ruined by them (LTA) and his mother decided that Spain would be a better alternative.

This was backed up by Rafa Nadal who was playing at the same time as him and suggested that it would be a good move for him to make.

Thanks for that, sportslover I didn't know that, or that Jamie had been affected by the LTA.

Jamie does still have a career (of sorts), but it makes you wonder how many British youngsters do fall by the wayside. Not all are able to look towards an alternative.

Pablo Carreno, 19, ranked 292
Javier Marti, 19, ranked 296
Juan Lizariturry, 19, ranked 530 - rising fast
Carlos Boluda, age 18, Ranked 557 - also in a rising trajectory
Roberto Carballes, 17, ranked 653
Marcos Giraldi, 17 (ranking unknown)
Albert Alcaraz, age 15, ranked 1521

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I personally believe that the strength of the present Spanish squad with Rafa at the helm - their current world rankings and their DC success, have been an enormous inspiration to these young players in Spain.

As far as the British players are concerned I do believe and have done for many years that much of our talent does fall by the wayside. I worked for many years in a Comprehensive school and Community College and I noted the ambivalence with regard to tennis albeit the College had two tennis courts of its own along with athletics track and football pitch. The tennis courts seemed only to be used by adults at the weekends where the football, hockey, pitches and athletics were used by school kids. I think that Britain is more enthusiastic about team sports; tennis is about dedication of the individual and I ask if we have that "mind-set" I do not believe its all about money-
My PS to this and it is interesting to note, that the Principal of the School in which I worked was opposed to all competitive sports. If he was in the majority this in itself would have a bearing on why we seem not to produce those with a competitive streak.. lets be fair we are even importing more and more footballers from other countries and we have to ask why ???

I don't know what it's like for everyone else, but trying to play throughout winter where I live is difficult as well as costly. In the whole county we have a very small amount of indoor courts, which usually charge between £10-£20 per hour.

Add onto this that I believe only two are open to the public, the rest are members only so you'd have to pay membership fees on top of these fees. Also, even in the summer a hardcourt which is open to the public and free is in terrible condition. I think to have a shot at the pro tour in the UK you need to start young, pay expensive membership and coaching fees etc. It's still a game for the wealthy over here.

From a few visits to spain, I think the free public courts are in a lot better condition. Seems like it's just easier to go find a court and play some tennis. Over here it costs a lot, which would discourage most parents from putting their kids through it.

As I said, this is only based on what I see in the county I live in and the rare visit to Spain. I imagine there are more qualified people on the subject but just thought I'd give my opinion as I see it!

I was not talking about Spain in my post ... certainly the school I worked in which was in Devon had no such problems with courts... It was my experience that youngsters were not encouraged or interested for the reasons Ive already said. IMO it is because it is a "lone sport" and requires youngsters to have dedication and parental or school encouragement.. I saw neither sadly. Kicking a ball with ten other boys is much more appealing and not even the weather deters them

I think we're realistic enough to accept that team sports such as football, rugby, cricket etc. will always prevail in this country. They are our national sports, what can easily be accommodated for in schools and local parks and tennis isn't. And for any youngster wanting to take up tennis, then it will mean finding a club or some sort of tennis centre which inevitably means some sort of financial commitment on behalf of the parents.

The thing is, Rafa and Fernando Verdasco's families (for instance) aren't actually short of a bob or two themselves, so its not as if money doesn't play a part in Spain. Its just that I don't understand when kids show promise in the UK and are then taken under LTA tutorlidge, why the system we have and the finances available to it just don't seem to work. And, of course, why the LTA persists with it.

I remember a debate on another tennis forum about this issue, but Australia was being mentioned as the example to follow. Now the LTA has implemented a number of things copied from the Oz way of doing things and it hasn't really shown any benefit. Maybe its how the LTA integrated an alien system into theirs that has drawn blanks, but there in no reason why the LTA could not fund its players to go over to Spain and play and coach with their Tennis academies during the winter months. Of course, the young players education is paramount, so formulating an English tutoring system as well would pay dividends in the end.

The fact that Murray is a great example of what a player can achieve within a few years doing the Spanish thing is a fine advert for Spain's prestige in this area.

At least they would be getting something back for all the millions that is wasted every year on white elephant structures like Roehampton.

Jubbahey wrote:I remember a debate on another tennis forum about this issue, but Australia was being mentioned as the example to follow. Now the LTA has implemented a number of things copied from the Oz way of doing things and it hasn't really shown any benefit. Maybe its how the LTA integrated an alien system into theirs that has drawn blanks, but there in no reason why the LTA could not fund its players to go over to Spain and play and coach with their Tennis academies during the winter months. Of course, the young players education is paramount, so formulating an English tutoring system as well would pay dividends in the end.

The fact that Murray is a great example of what a player can achieve within a few years doing the Spanish thing is a fine advert for Spain's prestige in this area.

At least they would be getting something back for all the millions that is wasted every year on white elephant structures like Roehampton.

You are correct in what you say about going abroad (Spain)

But and a "BIG" But they would never let it happen because it would then be seen to be an admission of defeat on their part

But and a "BIG" But they wouldn't never let it happen because it would then be seen to be an admission of defeat on their part

Totally agree. I think they've got to be seen to succeed with an all-British method, so what Jubbahey suggests will never happen.

Totally agree. I think they've got to be seen to succeed with an all-British method, so what Jubbahey suggests will never happen.

But can they make it happen in our winter months and would that be an admission of defeat ? I can see what you mean, but I wonder if it would be a better policy to amalgamate with Spain during the colder months and justify that shift with the fact that tennis is almost non-existant outdoors at that time.

I'm not talking about a mass exodus, but some of the more promising players could be given a chance to play 12 months of the year and experience the challenge of playing in the Spanish system of competition too.

Jubbahey wrote:

Totally agree. I think they've got to be seen to succeed with an all-British method, so what Jubbahey suggests will never happen.

But can they make it happen in our winter months and would that be an admission of defeat ? I can see what you mean, but I wonder if it would be a better policy to amalgamate with Spain during the colder months and justify that shift with the fact that tennis is almost non-existant outdoors at that time.

I'm not talking about a mass exodus, but some of the more promising players could be given a chance to play 2 months of the year and experience the challenge of playing in the Spanish system of competition too.

I am surprised that many people seem to believe that here in Spain the weather is good enough to play out doors during the winter. Whilst its true that in my part of Spain seldom have I seen snow (though it does snow inland where the temperatures drop considerably i.e. Granada has a ski resort ) we do have gota frias (cold rains) which are so heavy they can flood areas within hours (Spain is not known for their drainage) on top of this, now, we have suffered days of horrendous thunderstorms, and gale force winds with temperatures to match. The sun is shining this morning and Im off out because I have been in for a week. Certainly there would be little chance of playing out door tennis (I live approx 15 miles from Almagro´s home town) Verdasco and Lopez were brought up on indoor courts in Madrid-
Then if British players were expected to train in the temperatures we have here during the summer months, especially on clay, the excuse would be that it is way too hot.

So please, if you want to find "reasons" for British players inability to compete in top class tennis, dont make the weather the excuse I fully understand the frustration that we all have in seeing other countries able to produce top class players and we are constantly searching for reasons as to why we cant.. I have my theory, which I have already expressed, and I wish someone could come up with an alternative that would make me change my mind.
But whatever dont try compariing the British mindset with that of the Spaniards I see the difference between our two races every day

Good points Haddie, and I didnt realise the weather was that bad over there, but I think there is a better system, not so much a mindset, but the level of competition is better and the construction of the coaching is better, it seems.

We have to take Murrays example as proof that Spain has a more beneficial bias towards producing higher class players than Britain, for whatever reason, and the LTA have been guilty of ruining Jamie's forehand when he was part of their system of coaching. A fact that pushed Andy abroad and in affect gave Murray his best chance of getting to a level he would have had great difficulty in getting to over here.

I am not saying that Spain is the be all and end all of getting our players to reach their potential, but I am saying that at this moment, Spain can provide the necessary lift in both coaching and experience during the winter months. Whatever weather you get, its going to be better than the English cold and waterlogged hardcourts, most of the time.

Its not a perfect world, but tennis stagnates here in Britain, when the autumn ends to a fair degree, and can it do any harm to send a score of players over to Spain on paid leave to further their careers in a more substantial way ? it might not give us instant champions, but it might allow us to get a bit more prominence in events around the world and in the Davis Cup tournies. Confidence plays such a big part in getting your career moving in the right direction.

All moot points until it happens and we can see that there is a difference or not, but the LTA hasn't produced anything notable in the last few years, based on mega amounts of investment and an expensive coaching programme. A few on the womens side have poked their heads above the dross and it does seem as their system is working better, but that might have a lot to do with incentive and application and how the women view their career and improving their game, like Henman said recently, you can't put all the blame on the system, you have to take a lot of the responsibility yourself, maybe that is what the women are doing.

Jubba

I take on board all that you have said and you too raise some good points... however call me a cynic if you will.. (a fine line between that and a realist) I find it difficult to understand why tennis, which is not the only sport played outdoors, is the sport that seems to suffer most in our country. How do cricketers train during the winter months. Our excellence in all sports seems to have declined over recent years (athletics and cycling seem to be the only things where we can compete with favourable results..albeit Im sure you or others will put me right on that score ) Why is Britain importing so many foreign footballers.. our national sport. when Im sure every boy in every school around the country kicks a football at every opportunity unless my country has changed beyond recognition. My argument is, as I have said in my earlier post... too much of our talent is not picked up early enough... schools either do not have the funds or they are simply disinterested (as was the case when I worked in a Comprehensisve school) . True I agree with Tim Henman you cant blame it all on the system.. but you have to have the system in place in order that these young people can take advantage of it. THEN it comes down to the individual and their dedication and will to succeed. "How do I get to Wimbledon ?" practice practice practice !!!

Very true Haddie, dedication is most important.

Cricketers have the benefit of going abroad for the winter months and playing cricket all year round.

I wonder if, going on what you ask about British excellence, has it more to do with social trends as much as a stagnant system. A lot of kids don't really have the nous to get out there and do something worthwhile. There must be a few would-be-champions queueing up for their dole check. Its sad that joining a club has more to do with a night out than being a member of a hobbyist past time, socialising or swapping ideas or just feeling part of a society by contributing something of yourself.

Murray is one of those "mistakes", a mutation that went right. He is that needle in a haystack that someone found when they were looking for talent. Well, maybe not exactly like that, but he is one of a kind that come along now and again.

Its just that today, there are not enough kids doing something that does not include using their opposing thumbs to move a character around a TV screen.

Which brings us back to your point of using foreign players, the majority of the time those players come from societies that are more integrated with both young and old cultures.

Not sure if I'm on the right track, but when I look outside, I don't see many teenagers tinkering with a moped or spending half the morning under the bonnet of their new car. (I'm not saying that is the state of the whole country by the way), they just seem more interested in getting a bit sozzled and smoking some weed.

Sounds like me twenty years ago !

Yes Jubba I think you and I are thinking along the same lines.
I agree that that so much of our talent "escapes through the net" through neglect.
As far as Andy is concerned he has a mother who was a tennis player herself and therefore got him and his brother holding rackets as toddlers... bearing in mind Rafa had his Uncle who too was a tennis player... which brings me back to my point.. we do not find the talent soon enough. Ever increasing circles brings me back to the early days in school where, even if you had parents who were not sport minded, if you had anything in you at all the school would find it. Either through lack of funds or apathy this is now not the case.
Your right too about the young integrating with the old.. thats how it is here in Spain... the whole extended family are involved in a kids upbringing and welfare .. strong family support and encouragement are evident.

I think one other factor has to be considered in the UK.. parents are scared to let kids out on their own..Gone are the days of street cricket, and in the field playing footie or rounders with your mates.. now its computer games in the safety of your own four walls. Again, back to schools, unless its organised games within the school curriculum or out of school activities properly supervised the kids dont have the opportunities anymore.

As a parent, I know only too well thinking it would be neglectful for my wife and I to allow a 10 yr old kid to roam about the town and explore on his own or with his mates. Now they are 15 and 19, there is still some trepidation when they want to spread their wings. You have to give up so much of your instinct to say no and just give them as much advice as possible.

In my time, as long as I was back for tea, about 5:30 during the summer hols, and they knew roughly where is was going to be, there was no problem. I'm sure they worried, but there was not the huge amount of nutters and dangers or traffic around then as now.

In those days, it was great to be able to find your own boundaries and capabilities in your own time, whether it was kicking a football or climbing a tree, the school of hard knocks was a great teacher and I'm sure many sporting hero's of their day would have not attained such greatness had they been locked away in some room for hours on end.

Neighbourliness was also more of a natural thing to do, rather than be a forceful issue which it seems to be now, and families are far more likely to split up and go their separate ways than all stay under the same roof. That didnt change for centuries until the end of the second world war, then families started to drift apart, not enough rooms was one reason, but it wasn't strange to have four generations living in the same street. Many travellers have this old tradition still in practice but it is not the general state of affairs any more, broadly speaking.

Its sad to see a society fragment like this, we might see a trend to move back to the old values if looking after your parents at home becomes more affordable and more help is provided, but its no good in a two up two down dwelling, the Victorians built for a certain style of living, which included enough rooms for 3 gens or cheap tenement housing where families could stay within earshot of each other.

In that respect, I can't see that happening until we get rid of the buy to let brigade and their habit of converting lovely old houses into flats.

(I think I'm encouraging this thread to go off topic, sorry Haddie)

Jubba dont apologise we are not speaking of anything illegal or immoral.. It has a bearing on the topic. I am convinced that you are absolutely correct in your belief that the fabric of the society of UK that I once knew has been eroded to the point that family values are not important to a great many. I am equally of the belief that WE DO HAVE THE TALENT in the UK and whole wealth of it that is going to waste. I dont believe that the Spanish have more talented youngsters than we do.. Neither do I believe that they all come from a wealthy background... If you take football for instance, once, and Im not sure they do so now, but football scouts would tour the schools in the UK looking for boys who stood out from the crowd.. they may still do. But certainly there is no proof of that in our professional football teams at the moment. But I would reitterate that whilst you have schools controlled by the Principals similar to the man I worked for ... you can forget competitive sports.. he did not approve never encouraged the children or encouraged the staff to remain after school to coach sport. Schools are self-funding these days and this would be seen by some as an extravagance they could not afford. Schools are judged on their academic performance and funded accordingly.

I just realised this is Woofies thread LOL.

But it is getting very frustrating watching kids do sports at school. I work at a primary school and although there is a selection of sports that the kids have to take part in, including gym etc, the coaching is done by the staff.

In the particular seasons, we have professional coaches (Fulham Football club coaches come in once a week)visit us for the tennis, cricket and footie and do extra sessions after school if the kids want it, they have to pay for them but its cheap.

To be honest, not many take part considering the size of the school....300, just enough to get a footie team together and enough for two doubles matches in tennis. There is no encouragement as such, lots of info of when the courses are on, but that's it, many times I have seen the teachers go through the routines and there is a direct relation between how enthusiastic they teach and how much they like what they teach.

And this is where the problem lies, the teachers are bogged down in curriculum updates and courses they have to go on, they have way too much stuff to mark and not enough hours in the day to do it. Loads of meetings and then preparation for the next days teaching, so I can understand their lethargy towards sports sometimes.

So it is down to the head teacher to organise it better, but he is constricted by costs and funding and the fact that he doesn't have enough teachers, there are too many kids in each class and he also has to keep ahead of all the new technology and curriculum changes that are made on what seems a daily basis. It really is turmoil in schools these days and a lot of information overload for the kids too. There is too much going on every day, so really, they just want to go home and relax and play something that doesn't require too much energy.

If you combine that with Heads that have no head for sport, then the kids have no chance at all, and that, I think you'll agree, is criminal.

GTG :sleep:

And as you say, we do have enough talent hidden around the country, but if it is not directed into a sport they could become good at, what do they spend their skills doing ?

Bored kid......loads of energy......unleashed upon who or what ?

The devil makes work for idle hands
Just glad I was a kid when I was a kid... we didn´t have all the material stuff but a great outdoor life with friends. Now you need dedicated and committed adults to work their magic with some of the raw talent Im sure that our country has such a shame that it all has to come down to money or the lack of it.

Haddie-nuff wrote:
Just glad I was a kid when I was a kid... we didn´t have all the material stuff but a great outdoor life with friends.

Aaaw, me too Haddie.........I remember blissful days filled with playing with ponies........fishing in the streams and then walking home with a jar of minnows.......and I'm sure the summers used to be wall to wall sunshine.......those were the days lol.

Anyway, this is a very interesting conversation you and Jubbahey are having.........do please carry on : )

Solerina

Aaaw, me too Haddie.........I remember blissful days filled with playing with ponies........fishing in the streams and then walking home with a jar of minnows.......and I'm sure the summers used to be wall to wall sunshine.......those were the days lol.

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Oh dont get me started Solerina.. bluebelling in the woods.. scrumping apples .
Now you are not allowed to pìck bluebells and what Mum would allow her little girl in the woods. and parents would be prosecuted if their kids scrumped apples.... its such a shame.,
But heh!! they say you only remember the sunny days... but I dont think thats true either every day was sunny when I was a kid

Haddie-nuff wrote:Aaaw, me too Haddie.........I remember blissful days filled with playing with ponies........fishing in the streams and then walking home with a jar of minnows.......and I'm sure the summers used to be wall to wall sunshine.......those were the days lol.

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Oh dont get me started Solerina.. bluebelling in the woods.. scrumping apples .
Now you are not allowed to pìck bluebells and what Mum would allow her little girl in the woods. and parents would be prosecuted if their kids scrumped apples.... its such a shame.,
But heh!! they say you only remember the sunny days... but I dont think thats true either every day was sunny when I was a kid

Yes........and Wagon Wheels were much bigger back then too....tho' of course I'd never eat such junk now

Solerina

Goodness, I am feeling very nostalgic reading this thread and a little sad. I too recall the endless summers, the bike rides into the woods, making dens (does anyone do that anymore?).

Anyway, thanks for the trip down memory lane

Its OK cool, up until 3 yrs ago, I took both my kids out to the woods, taught them how make a fire and cook hotdogs on skewers. Made a few dens, spears etc and climbed trees to their hearts content.
Its amazing if you sit still enough, the kind of wildlife that that comes into view and even quite close sometimes. All next to the M25 !

Took one of their best mates with us one day, he was over the moon, it was such a big adventure for him, but for my kids it was just another routine occurrence.

I'm glad I did that looking back.

Jubba

Your a star and when you have sons as old as mine I can assure you that you will look back on those moments (and so will they) what wonderful memories you will have. The most precious gift you will ever give your children is your time. Their childhood goes so quickly

Well Haddie, all that I showed them I hope, they will pass on to their kids, if they have any, and to appreciate what's been given to them in life, which kind of brings us around to what Henman said about tennis wannabees, no point blaming the system, take responsibility and put in the hard work to ensure you try your best.

They will... I watch and listen to my sons with their kids and I often think...
"oops that is just like I used to do or used to say" even though I thought my words fell on stoney ground.

On another subject but related to what we have said I read Bill Clinton´s story and he said he told his mother when he was a very little boy that one day he would be the President of USA. Proving you can be what you want to be providing you have the talent, determination and dedication.