Ben Morgan's New Year Dilemma?

Having seen the scarlets - Northampton game on Friday I was very impressed with Morgan. He provided good front foot ball, excellent control and hands and hits like a steam train. He should of course get invited into both the English and Welsh squads however who will he choose? HE's from Bristol and I can't see ex-bristol/england players being very happy if decides to turn welsh in January nor would the majority of England fans. If he does play play for Wales will it stop our Welsh cousins reminding us at every opportunity that our side contains several players who have decided to do the same?

Some on here no.

He's pretty much a Welsh rugby product, it's not like he's a former NZ Maori or Kiwi League player; so do not see how you can draw a comparison?

I'd be suprised if he didn't opt for Wales.

Hasnt he already turned down a Saxons call?

If thats the case i would say he's pretty much made his decision.....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hasnt he already turned down a Saxons call?

If thats the case i would say he's pretty much made his decision.....

Well...that could be a case of him not wanting to be tied to England (as the Saxons as their A-side) 'on the cheap' as it were. It's his personal choice I guess, regardless of how I feel, so it'll be interesting what he chooses. I wonder if Faletau's form and Wales' recent fortunes will affect things?

I don't blame him for not accepting a Saxons call up. Who's to say England would cap him then and then not look at him again? I think he's been very wise in holding out for a full England cap or none at all.

I have mixed feeligns about him choosing Wales if he decides to. Whilst as a Scarlets fan, I absolutely love him, and I know he's done most of his developing rugby wise in Wales, it would be a bit strange seeing him pull on a Welsh shirt. If he does choose to, I'd back him all the way, because he's embraced everything that is Scarlet, but I would fully understand if he opted for England as well.

Best of luck to him whatever he decides.

Residency is residency. Nobody can hold the moral high ground as everybody does it.

morgannwg you're splitting hairs and very much the same rules/principles plus he was a Bristol academy lad I think (could be mistaken) so where do you draw the line?

He may be from bristol, but if he plays most of his rugby in Wales, then why would he want to play for England, If he had qualified to play for Wales and he has made Wales his home, then what is the problem of him playing for Wales?
What ever country he decides to play for, I wish him well.

Capping past it mercenaries should be where the line is drawn. North and Faletau played rugby in Wales since ages 5 and 7. The birth place's still always have to get a mention so I can't see it stopping to be honest.

Morgannwg wrote:Capping past it mercenaries should be where the line is drawn.

Good luck getting that wording into the legislation

Looks a very good prospect though I think he played his early rugby in Glaws for Cinderford before moving to Cardiff.
Residency decision is in Feb 2012 & I'm sure he will opt for Wales good luck to him.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Looks a very good prospect though I think he played his early rugby in Glaws for Cinderford before moving to Cardiff.

exactly right, he was never a Bristol Academy product, no-one in Llanelli would blame him if he opts for England after all he is English, his father has been trying to get him to go back to Gloucester for a while, the Scarlets have developed him from a semi-pro up to this stage of his career but as you say, good luck to him whoever he chooses.

majesticimperialman wrote:He may be from bristol, but if he plays most of his rugby in Wales, then why would he want to play for England, If he had qualified to play for Wales and he has made Wales his home, then what is the problem of him playing for Wales?
What ever country he decides to play for, I wish him well.

Not a problem with him playing for Wales apart from would be gutted as rate him highly, but do get a little annoyed at double standards being posted on here. Plus he might still want to play for England in the long run might be a better decision for him? Plus add in the fact he is actually English! I guess we will all see soon enough, either way hope he has a long and successful career.

That's a bit odd to hear that about his father Turkster, whenever I see Mr Morgan at home matches he seems a full on Scarlet, and looks incredibly happy! Would be surprised to hear him trying to get Ben to go back to Gloucester, especially as Ben signed a 3yr contract.

I heard it a while back that he'd prefer his son to play for Gloucester and England, if he's come round then great, I'd love Ben to declare for Wales.

ah well it would be understandable he'd want his son to play for England, but from what I've seen/heard about him, I really think he'll be unbelievably proud, whichever country his son chose.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Capping past it mercenaries should be where the line is drawn.

Good luck getting that wording into the legislation

Sorry did I mention half the England backline with that?

oh god, not another Anglo-Welsh argument thread, it's getting really boring now. (where's that facepalm smilie gone?)

I wish him the best of luck whoever he chooses to play for, the country of his birth or the country he has made his home. The thought of him and Faletau fighting it out for the Welsh number 8 shirt for the next few years is mouth watering. Its been a while since we have had a number 8 who makes hard yards and to have two competing for the spot would be great.

If Morgan elects to play for England then so be it, as a Scarlet I wont hold it against him, I'll just hope that he has a complete mare everytime he plays against Wales!

Was the play in Englnd to be picked for England a Johnson or an RFU call? Obviously if it was a Jonno call then that door might be opened back up for him. On othe rhand if its an RFU stance then being in Wales will go against him.

If we didnt have Faletau I'd be crossing all fingers and toes that Morgan chooses Wales.

Hes a great player and I would love him to play for us, but I wont be bothered if he chooses to play for England, and England should really pay more attention to this guy.

Mike,

I would def have them both keeping each other on their toes and with rumours of Delve going to Blues next year would be even better

I think he should try his hand at getting selected for the Welsh squad, there are better options for England.

stlowe wrote:I think he should try his hand at getting selected for the Welsh squad, there are better options for England.

Haven't seen many 8's in England that are better than Ben. Who do you have besides erm, Easter?

one thing does wales class as foreign? with the new england rules and stuff?

stlowe wrote:I think he should try his hand at getting selected for the Welsh squad, there are better options for England.

And who are they?

Fearns...cant get 8 at Bath and faces a battle just to make the team.
Guest...Needs to stay fit...could be decent
Narraway has not kicked on like i hoped
Gray is still a work in progress and young
Is it York playing at Quins...havent seen any of him but with Easter back now i cant see him getting much time.

No others really stand out....

Morgannwg wrote:

stlowe wrote:I think he should try his hand at getting selected for the Welsh squad, there are better options for England.

Haven't seen many 8's in England that are better than Ben. Who do you have besides erm, Easter?

The problem with Morgan for me is that he's still largely untested, he hasn't really come up against top class opposition in the games he's played for Scarlets the last couple of seasons. He hasn't played against top level backrows in the small amount of European cup exposure he's had, and he's still yet to face the likes of Heaslip, O'Brien & Leamy in the PRO12.

You should know that selection hasn't been a forte of the England management for a number of years, just because they haven't played for England, doesn't mean they aren't about. I want to see time invested in developing the likes of Fearns & Gray (similar ages to Morgan and likewise untested, but equally if not more promising and national captains & championship winners at age grade), and players like Guest & Crane (when fit again) given a chance to prove themselves on the international stage.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Fearns...cant get 8 at Bath and faces a battle just to make the team.

A battle I think he'll win. He was needed to play on the flanks when Moody & Louw were away on international duty (something Taylor can't do to the same degree). He's been injured since they've returned, but he'll now be competing with Taylor for the 8 spot and I expect him to become first choice.

stlowe wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

stlowe wrote:I think he should try his hand at getting selected for the Welsh squad, there are better options for England.

Haven't seen many 8's in England that are better than Ben. Who do you have besides erm, Easter?

The problem with Morgan for me is that he's still largely untested, he hasn't really come up against top class opposition in the games he's played for Scarlets the last couple of seasons. He hasn't played against top level backrows in the small amount of European cup exposure he's had, and he's still yet to face the likes of Heaslip, O'Brien & Leamy in the PRO12.

You should know that selection hasn't been a forte of the England management for a number of years, just because they haven't played for England, doesn't mean they aren't about. I want to see time invested in developing the likes of Fearns & Gray (similar ages to Morgan and likewise untested, but equally if not more promising and national captains & championship winners at age grade), and players like Guest & Crane (when fit again) given a chance to prove themselves on the international stage.

What utter tripe

The guy has played against some first class sides that contain best forwards from Scotland, Ireland, and Wales over the last two seasons and has played against in the HC English and French equivalents he has yet to have come second best to any of them

I can't think of one English 8 at his age that has more potential

FHF, beat me to it. Just checked, he's played 38 games for the Scarlets. Most of those games have been behind a retreating scrum. Admittedly he has come on as a sub for Lyons on a number of occasions but to play behind what has been a weak pack against the majority if not all the Celtic league sides not to mention English and French sides in the HEC is a huge test for a young number 8. He has rarely failed to impress and has always made the hard yards. With a solid pack in front of him he could be devastating. Of course if anyone reading this is involved in the English set up, just forget what you've just read, its not important, just move along there.

SubsBench wrote:FHF, beat me to it. Just checked, he's played 38 games for the Scarlets. Most of those games have been behind a retreating scrum. Admittedly he has come on as a sub for Lyons on a number of occasions but to play behind what has been a weak pack against the majority if not all the Celtic league sides not to mention English and French sides in the HEC is a huge test for a young number 8. He has rarely failed to impress and has always made the hard yards. With a solid pack in front of him he could be devastating. Of course if anyone reading this is involved in the English set up, just forget what you've just read, its not important, just move along there.

He's a cracking player...with great future potential...so naturally the RFU will not be remotely interested.....

I think Faletau could possibly move to flanker if Morgan played for Wales. I think Faletau might even be a better flanker than he is at 8, I just think he plays more like a 6 would than as an 8 in the mould of Read, Harinordoquy or Parisse.

With Lydiate and Evans at the Dragons and Tipuric, Warburton, Turnbull... there's no chance Faletau is going to be playing at flanker any time soon. Made the XV of the World Cup for a few people, lets keep him there!

Harinordoquy was the top 8 of the tournament in most people's view. Faletau played great but the thing I wasn't impressed with was his physicality as an 8. I don't think he would play 7 (Warburton, Tipuric) but he could possibly play 6. I think he is a better all around player than Lydiate.

Go and check who were in the teams he played against. At the end of last season I looked at every game he played, he only really featured in the Treviso games in the HC, and in the Magners he spent a lot of the time coming on from the bench, only really starting when the internationals were away or against lesser opposition. The best quality opposition he came up against was one game against Xavier Rush, one game against Beattie, and one game against a Thomas, Hollah & Collins backrow where Ospreys crushed them by 50 odd points. So far this season the best he's come up against has been Thomas in the Pro12 and Wilson in the HC, neither of which are spectacular.

He's not faced better players with any regularity and certainly hasn't faced the best his league can offer. He may well turn out to be great, but at the moment he's as unproven as other young options.

He's a good powerful runner and at making the hard yards (for potential England selection Crane is superior in that regard though), but I've seen better and more frequent link play.

There's no dilemma as far as I can see, he'll have to pick Wales. He won't be selected for England as long as he's playing in Wales and he's got a three year contract at Scarlets.

I'd prefer Crane and Fearns for England over the coming years anyway, and Grey looks like an excellent prospect down the line.

He seems to be making his decision on a career basis rather than emotional one and he's got more chance of making the Wales squad.

He is an Englishman. He should play for England. Wouldn't be the first Englishman to play for Wales though. The example most similar to this is Chris Horstman.

Obviously there are a few players like North,Shanklin and Charvis born in England but they have been in Wales most of their lives. They are Welshman as far as I am concerned.

Ben Morgan isn't Welsh.

When did Morgan move to Scarlets? When he was 19?

England have offered Morgan so little, that I am not surprised that he is erring towards the WRU.

I am very surprised that he doesn't seem to want to play for England. Even more surprised that the best offer he has had was a call up to the saxons squad. He looks like just what England need as they have little in the way of number 8s that can do the job.

If he's been considering not playing for England, then I'm quite happy for him to follow that through. It's bad enough we have mercenaries coming from other countries, I'm certainly not interested in the sort of character that would desert the England cause so readily. From a career perspective his considerations are completely understandable, and best of luck to him, but I want players wearing the national shirt whose attitude is 'I either play international rugby for England or not at all'.

beshocked wrote:He is an Englishman. He should play for England. Wouldn't be the first Englishman to play for Wales though. The example most similar to this is Chris Horstman.

Obviously there are a few players like North,Shanklin and Charvis born in England but they have been in Wales most of their lives. They are Welshman as far as I am concerned.

Ben Morgan isn't Welsh.

When did Morgan move to Scarlets? When he was 19?

Or Charteris or North or Dan Lydiate

Where do you draw your moral line ? Its not as though Morgan is from outside the British Ilses , wasn't good enough for his native country so tried in Wales.

Munkian weren't Lydiate,North and Charteris all brought up in Wales?

You draw the moral line at 3 year's residency. It's not enough.

Getting into the Welsh team is evidently easier.

Beshocked - yes all three of those were brought up in Wales from a very young age.

maestegmafia wrote:England have offered Morgan so little, that I am not surprised that he is erring towards the WRU.

I am very surprised that he doesn't seem to want to play for England. Even more surprised that the best offer he has had was a call up to the saxons squad. He looks like just what England need as they have little in the way of number 8s that can do the job.

What more should England have offered him? He wasn't playing in England (which is counter to selection policy and something he was certainly aware of when he got his new contract) and he wasn't even first choice for Scarlets last season. A Saxons offer is the usual precursor to being selected for the senior squad and was the best he could expect. There was certainly no basis to select him in the EPS ahead of players who had already established themselves in the Saxons set up and performed well.

He's similar to Crane with little evidence of being better so far. I feel Fearns has more of the attributes we should be aiming for though.

beshocked wrote:
Getting into the Welsh team is evidently easier.

Thats an amusing line...!

Considering he has already turned down the opportunities England have offered to him, and the accolades the players already in the Welsh Squad have received from pundits throughout the world over the last through months, it would be more likely to make the opposite assumption.

Getting into the Welsh team is evidently easier.

And that England had to stop someone being deported to find a decent option at centre rather than relying on an ageing overseas mercenary....

alcoombe wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:England have offered Morgan so little, that I am not surprised that he is erring towards the WRU.

I am very surprised that he doesn't seem to want to play for England. Even more surprised that the best offer he has had was a call up to the saxons squad. He looks like just what England need as they have little in the way of number 8s that can do the job.

What more should England have offered him? He wasn't playing in England (which is counter to selection policy and something he was certainly aware of when he got his new contract) and he wasn't even first choice for Scarlets last season. A Saxons offer is the usual precursor to being selected for the senior squad and was the best he could expect. There was certainly no basis to select him in the EPS ahead of players who had already established themselves in the Saxons set up and performed well.

He's similar to Crane with little evidence of being better so far. I feel Fearns has more of the attributes we should be aiming for though.

Considering it is a pretty firm belief that England have one candidate for number eight, the lumbering Nick Easter, you would think that they would clearly be interested in looking at other options. I understand that there is a complicated system of trial and tribulations through EPS and so on to get into the England squad, so I do see your point.

But if you need decent number eights, why not try a few out.

Morgan may have been second fiddle at the Scarlets last season but he was getting plenty of rugby and excelling when given the opportunity, getting heaps of praise from pundits in England and Wales.

Morgan will opt for Wales....

England will look to Fearns, Crane and Gray...

Its quite simple.

Don't want him playing for England. It's clear he's going to go for whoever will give him full caps. I'd rather not have a player like that even if they're much better than anyone else.

Good luck to him with Wales. I hope he does well (with Scarlets [and Wales])