haye v vitali ?

whos going if it happens ? i will be after the dissapointment of hamburg ! i belive haye is so much better than the wlad performence ,

dan rafael said they were in talks for a fight in may and he is usually pretty spot on.

rycoys wrote:i belive haye is so much better than the wlad performence ,

Are you a relative of his?

Vitali knocks him out or stops him on his feet late, I think. Haye was at a loss when it came to trying to pressure or unsettle Wladimir, don't see how he can do it against a man who's even stronger, hits harder and has a lot more faith in his chin.

The idea that both of the Klitschkos are always looking to fight in reverse until an opponent is softened up is a bit of a myth, to be honest. Vitali can mix up his shots as well as anyone and doesn't mind leaving himself open.

In short, absolutely no way on God's green earth that Haye can knock out, or even hurt Vitali, and he simply isn't active enough to take a decision over him either. He'll spend time circling on the outside, will take a few thunderous jabs and right crosses and cave in late on, of that I'm sure. Vitali all day and every day, for me.

I think if it ever does happen it will be more of the same and a similar outcome to the Wlad fight.

Haye will probably turn up for the money and play hide and seek. Vitali will control the fight but lacks the finishing skills to get rid of a Haye that is in survival mode.

If it does happen I'd go for Haye by clear UD. I've always said that Haye would lose to Wlad and beat Vit. Vit is tougher and more durable than Wlad but Wlad is a better boxer. Vit is now so damn slow. Haye can do his ambush raids all night long.

If either of the pair are 'slow', then on evidence north of 200 lb I'd say it's Haye. This isn't Valuev we're talking about here; Haye's in and out gameplan isn't going to work against either of the Klitschkos. Haye just isn't as elusive as a lot of people seem to think he is - when Vitali catches him cleanly, he's going to be in a world of trouble.

88Chris05 wrote:If either of the pair are 'slow', then on evidence north of 200 lb I'd say it's Haye. This isn't Valuev we're talking about here; Haye's in and out gameplan isn't going to work against either of the Klitschkos. Haye just isn't as elusive as a lot of people seem to think he is - when Vitali catches him cleanly, he's going to be in a world of trouble.

If Vit catched him cleanly Haye wont be in a world of trouble. He'd be fast asleep. But I'll maintain that at this present stage, Vit is not as good as he was prior to his first retirement. He's fought dross since beating the fat Peters and is dreadfully slow. Admitedly Vit will be favourite and rightfully so. But I believe his time has gone and he's ripe for the taking.

Bob wrote:

rycoys wrote:i belive haye is so much better than the wlad performence ,

Are you a relative of his?

er ? dont get why you would write that ?

wlad hits harder than vitali

azania wrote:If Vit catched him cleanly Haye wont be in a world of trouble. He'd be fast asleep. But I'll maintain that at this present stage, Vit is not as good as he was prior to his first retirement. He's fought dross since beating the fat Peters and is dreadfully slow. Admitedly Vit will be favourite and rightfully so. But I believe his time has gone and he's ripe for the taking.

I'd probably agree with that particular statement - but I still think that a below par Vitali is a considerably better Heavyweight than Haye. You can call Adamek 'dross' if you like (and I agree he's no particularly great shakes), but I don't think Haye would outclass him - or the other Heavyweight contenders outside of the Klitschkos - as easily as some others seem to.

It's interesting that you acknowledge that Haye is probably out for the count if Vitali gets to him; given that Haye still took a few flush shots against Wladimir despite putting in one of the most negative performances I've seen from a Brit in a world title fight, do you really think he can go a full twelve rounds without taking at least a few big shots from a Heavyweight who fights more aggressively and mixes up his shots more impressively? It's hard for me to see such a scenario playing out, especially as Haye is going to have to try and get in close to Vitali's body to have any chance.

If Haye fights the way he did against Wlad I think he will probably hear the final bell. Neither Klitschko is really a natural finisher. They rely more on wearing down their opponent.

If Haye opts to fight more agressively then he might get stopped but if he just runs a hide then I think Vitali will struggle to get rid of him.

Throw in the fact that Vitali genuinly dislikes Haye, so is likely to throw caution to the wind (and with his chin, why not), and you have an easy night for Vitali.

Can't see anything other than a Vitali win, with a Haye UD a huge, huge outside chance, but I'd still be massively intrigued to see it...and be backing the Hayemaker all the way!

Once again I'm in a minority of one. And once again if this fight happens, I'd be proven correct. Remember I said Wlad would beat Haye easily. Vit wasn't particularly fast at his peak and is decidedly slower now. The more aggressive he becomes, the better for Haye's raids.

azania wrote:Once again I'm in a minority of one. And once again if this fight happens, I'd be proven correct. Remember I said Wlad would beat Haye easily. Vit wasn't particularly fast at his peak and is decidedly slower now. The more aggressive he becomes, the better for Haye's raids.

Hardly makes you an oracle, Azania - most were backing Wladimir in that one! Time to put your proverbial money where your mouth is - Union Cane's prediction league!

88Chris05 wrote:

azania wrote:Once again I'm in a minority of one. And once again if this fight happens, I'd be proven correct. Remember I said Wlad would beat Haye easily. Vit wasn't particularly fast at his peak and is decidedly slower now. The more aggressive he becomes, the better for Haye's raids.

Hardly makes you an oracle, Azania - most were backing Wladimir in that one! Time to put your proverbial money where your mouth is - Union Cane's prediction league!

The fight wont happen though. The Klits have the upper hand in negotiations. Haye brings nothing to the table. He'll be tied to the Klits for another 3 fights and I dont think he'll take it.

You may be right there, Azania, but Haye would know this as well as anyone and, if word around the camp fire is to be believed, it doesn't seem to have put him off all that much. Moreover, Vitali suggested after beating Adamek that it's two fights left for him at the most - whether or not this is the case remains to be seen.

For Haye, a fight with Vitali offers another Heavyweight belt and a chance to repair his reputation which, for the last twelve months of his career, was in tatters - as well as one hell of a pay day. The fact that he in no way deserves a shot at Vitali (or the fact that I don't think he has a prayer) is irrelevant, really. That kind of deal is a lot to turn down and, from Haye's point of view, might just be worth a few other concessions given that he's more or less admitted he's as much a businessman as a boxer these days.

88Chris05 wrote:Vitali knocks him out or stops him on his feet late, I think. Haye was at a loss when it came to trying to pressure or unsettle Wladimir, don't see how he can do it against a man who's even stronger, hits harder and has a lot more faith in his chin.

I don't think Vitali has ever shown that he hits as hard as Wlad. Wlad hit's harder but is more conservative, Vitali mixes up his punches better but doesn't have one punch KO power like his brother.

monty junior wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Vitali knocks him out or stops him on his feet late, I think. Haye was at a loss when it came to trying to pressure or unsettle Wladimir, don't see how he can do it against a man who's even stronger, hits harder and has a lot more faith in his chin.

I don't think Vitali has ever shown that he hits as hard as Wlad. Wlad hit's harder but is more conservative, Vitali mixes up his punches better but doesn't have one punch KO power like his brother.

Have to agree somewhat, for pure power I think Wlad has the edge but Vitali is the one more likely to press for a KO which could be the deciding factor in a fight with Haye, he wont have any fear of the punches coming his way so can be a bit more reckless getting his shots off.

wlad clearly hits harder than his brother, especially nowadays. how many right hands did adamek take from vit without dropping and how many would he have taken from wlad? there is visibly more snap in wlads punches.

as for those talking about vitalis "thunderous jab" what on earth are you talking about? vitali has an awkward defensive jab nowadays that he uses as more of an arm punch. there isnt any snap behind it at all - problem is vitali has so much physical power that the jab is still hurtful.

i think haye has more of a chance than most think however he needs to make vitali work. i think he is now prone to gassing more and he cant allow vit a round off, problem is will haye do this? i doubt it.

Could well be wrong about this, but it seemed to me that Vitali was carrying Adamek during that fight. He hit him with a good right hand early (first or second round, I forget) and I think he could have had him out of there early. But first HW world title fight in Poland and all that.

disagree vit doesnt have to please a PPV Audience he gets millions of viewers on RTL regardless of whos fighting.

Can't realistically see a Haye victory here as it would require a more increased workrate than Haye seems to want to give and whilst he showed a good chin against Wlad, the very nature of his tactics required to beat Vitali, suggests he'd take more shots than in his previous fight, which doesn't bode well.

Raiding tactics may have won him the fight a while back but I think Haye's poor showing against Wlad will go against him in the judge's eyes even before the first bell rings for the Vitali fight. They're going to WANT him to come forward and be aggressive. He has a lot to prove to people that he's more than just a good salesman. His last fight severely damaged his reputation and I think he's got a lot of work to do on THAT front never mind the actual fight.

Still, if Haye is bored or retirement already then let them fight. Can't say that I'm overly interested this time round and certainly won't be killing myself to watch it live but good luck to them both

in truth he is the only guy i think has the tools to beat either klit barring a humdinger on wlad. wlads next opponent is bad so barring haye vits would surely be worse.

Perhaps Im wrong, but watching that fight Vitali seemed reluctant to get rid of Adamek. I remember at one point Vit stopped punching and looked at the ref before he stepped in to give Adamek a standing count. I think it was clear that every big shot that was hitting Adamek was rocking him.

Not sure what tools Haye has got to beat Vitali. Hasnt got the workrate to outpoint him or the power to stop him in my opinion.

joeyjojo618 wrote:Perhaps Im wrong, but watching that fight Vitali seemed reluctant to get rid of Adamek. I remember at one point Vit stopped punching and looked at the ref before he stepped in to give Adamek a standing count. I think it was clear that every big shot that was hitting Adamek was rocking him.

Not sure what tools Haye has got to beat Vitali. Hasnt got the workrate to outpoint him or the power to stop him in my opinion.

Speed, elusiveness?

Yes, although I dont think hes as elusive as people make out. Vitali has got height, reach, weight, power, chin going for him, and probably the referees on top. Dont see any way for Haye myself.

Just dont think Haye is big enough to compete with them. No shame in that though.

joeyjojo618 wrote:Yes, although I dont think hes as elusive as people make out. Vitali has got height, reach, weight, power, chin going for him, and probably the referees on top. Dont see any way for Haye myself.

Just dont think Haye is big enough to compete with them. No shame in that though.

Would you say the same about the likes of Dempsey who is probably smaller than Haye?

No, but theres ATG little guys and good little guys. Haye is the latter.

joeyjojo618 wrote:Could well be wrong about this, but it seemed to me that Vitali was carrying Adamek during that fight. He hit him with a good right hand early (first or second round, I forget) and I think he could have had him out of there early. But first HW world title fight in Poland and all that.

Yea to be honest he could have taken out Adamek when he wanted, TA took a standing 8 count in round 6 when he was held up from a knock down by the ropes.

Looks like Haye hasnt received the calls from Hollywood producers that he was hoping for.

I would rather this fight doesnt happen to be honest, simply because it will probably be another dull, anti-climatic fight.

Haye doesnt have the workrate to beat Vitali on points, he barely managed it against an Valuev.
He'll need to get a stoppage and I don't think he'll hit Vitali often enough to manage it.

I think Haye is just looking at this fight from the financial perspective and will just attmept to survive for 12 rounds.

Tend to agree Benson, think the Wlad fight showed some fundamental problems with Haye's leap in with sporadic attacks tactics when the level of opposition was above the likes of Ruiz and Valuev and given he has not taken any fights in between and seems still willing to blame his performance on his toe I struggle to see how he will do anything different in this fight or what he has done to iron out these flaws and/or develop a plan B, so personally I have to suspect this one will end again in defeat and anti climax.

I think if you go back to the Valuev fight, again it doesnt look all that good for Haye.

Its said that Vitali is alot more hittable than his brother. This may be true, but I dont think hes more hittable than Valuev and hes comfortably better in nearly all other departments. Haye still only managed to land sparingly on Valuev for a guy thats impossible to miss against.

I think for Haye to win this one of two things need to happen. Either he shos us a hidden gear that we have not yet seen and employs new tactics of a sufficient calibre to beat Vitali. Or Vitalis durability has lessened over time and his reliance on his chin against Hayes power cost him unexpectantly. I dont honestly believe either scenario is likely.

People will say Haye is not as elusive as some make out which may be fair but in comparison with the average heavyweight around today he remains very elusive which is why I would not be surprised to see it o to points if he adopts the tactics he did against Valuev/Wlad. Some will say Vitali doesnt like him and will be prepared to walk him down but in all honesty I dont see that happening early as its not Vitalis style and if haye is determined to run and employs overly negative tactics I see Vitali struggling to get rid of him.

.

manos de piedra wrote: Some will say Vitali doesnt like him and will be prepared to walk him down but in all honesty I dont see that happening early as its not Vitalis style
.

Spot on think a lot of people thought the same with Wlad and I personally think this was a plan for Haye but whilst Vitali is more aggressive than Wlad, like his brother he is far from stupid and he is not going to totally disregard tactics or hang his chin out to dry solely to score the KO. Also one does have to wonder what part Haye's ego will play in this, he is not stupid he must surely know on the back of Harrison and Wlad his stock could not be much lower with the fans and he must realise that another damp squib of a performance will make him a virtual pariah. Many will say he is all about the money etc but I'm not convinced. I struggle to imagine he will want to fail to deliver in such fashion again, and hopefully this may result in him taking a few more risks. Will not change the outcome but may help him repair his image somewhat.

rowley wrote:Tend to agree Benson, think the Wlad fight showed some fundamental problems with Haye's leap in with sporadic attacks tactics when the level of opposition was above the likes of Ruiz and Valuev and given he has not taken any fights in between and seems still willing to blame his performance on his toe I struggle to see how he will do anything different in this fight or what he has done to iron out these flaws and/or develop a plan B, so personally I have to suspect this one will end again in defeat and anti climax.

you could argue haye learnt from that experience and can develop a better gameplan to utilise his tools more effectively. i would watch with interest but i doubt much will change in truth.

Would like to think so Alex but for me, such was the failure of those tactics and so severe was the need for a total overhaul I am of the belief that was he genuine in his desire to make the necessary changes he would look to take a couple of fights before even thinking of stepping in with one of the brothers again, because doing it in the gym is no replacement for doing it in the ring with a guy trying to execute his own plan.

do you think sky would show this on PPV or normal SS1?

AlexHuckerby wrote:

rowley wrote:Tend to agree Benson, think the Wlad fight showed some fundamental problems with Haye's leap in with sporadic attacks tactics when the level of opposition was above the likes of Ruiz and Valuev and given he has not taken any fights in between and seems still willing to blame his performance on his toe I struggle to see how he will do anything different in this fight or what he has done to iron out these flaws and/or develop a plan B, so personally I have to suspect this one will end again in defeat and anti climax.

you could argue haye learnt from that experience and can develop a better gameplan to utilise his tools more effectively. i would watch with interest but i doubt much will change in truth.

You could argue that I guess, but theres next to no evidence of it to base an argument on. The fact he wouldnt even have a fight in between to try out any upgraded plan or tactics would also undermine that argument. You could also just as easily argue hes taking this fight for the money without a real ambition or expectation to win.

I would watch the fight, but not with a great deal of expectation really. I just expect more of the same from a division that isnt noted for its excitement or competitiveness at present.

AlexHuckerby wrote:do you think sky would show this on PPV or normal SS1?

My money is normal Sky, think the non performances against Harrison and Wlad are a big reason Sky have cooled on PPV, do not think Sky would risk another fight with him, particularly as the chances of him failing to deliver again seem pretty high.

rowley wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:do you think sky would show this on PPV or normal SS1?

My money is normal Sky, think the non performances against Harrison and Wlad are a big reason Sky have cooled on PPV, do not think Sky would risk another fight with him, particularly as the chances of him failing to deliver again seem pretty high.

You would assume so wouldn't you? But you never know he migh just be able to wing it to get one last payday out of them as for a normal fight I'm unsure that Sky would be able to pay out the millions...

Unless Primetime gets there claws into him...

Id be surprised if Haye came out of his retirement for a fight that didnt offer ppv earnings.

Same and thats why I remain skeptical Manos, there isn't a whole heap of money that will be offered to him AND Vit by Sky Sports 1, I suppose including HBO and RTL picking up the fight there is still a fair bit to be made and probably as much money as you could make without it being a PPV fight but I'm not sure if even that will swing it...

manos de piedra wrote:Id be surprised if Haye came out of his retirement for a fight that didnt offer ppv earnings.

I don't why he bothered announcing his retirement in the first place. It was clear he would seek a match with Vitali but use Vitali's dislike of him rather than a few convincing wins over top ten HW's to do so. It's this lack of desire to put in the hard work and show people he's willing to make the effort/sacrifices required that have cooled many people on him (including me). For all his faults, at least Areola has hit the circuit again and is racking up a few wins rather than faking a retirement and jumping straight in a the deep end.

Saw Haye's autobiography in the supermarket the other day and would have been more inclined to pick up Jordan's latest effort....although that may have more to do with my unwillingness to pay for stuff!

DAVE667 wrote:

Saw Haye's autobiography in the supermarket the other day and would have been more inclined to pick up Jordan's latest effort....although that may have more to do with my unwillingness to pay for stuff!

Saw that myself Dave, as most on here know my appetite for boxing literature pretty much knows no bounds but even I will not be adding that to the collection.

Id say whats going on behind the scenes is quite complicated. One reason amongst others I think Haye faced Wlad when he did was due to pressure from Sky who I think were relectant to give Haye any more ppv fights short of a unification fight after the Harrion fight.

Now Sky has seemingly commited to a ppv-less calender but you have channels like Primetime or even Box Nation that Haye could cut a deal with. (I know him and Warren arent friends but both are business men and if there i money to be made then Im sure an agreement could be reached).

Basically I think Haye will only resurface if the money is right and Id say thats what is being looked at and discussed at the moment. Cant see him facing a threat like Vitali without a sufficient carrot to be had.

I still dont get why he doesnt just have a rebuilding fight. It makes sense both financially to rebuild his stock and fan base, and competitively to stay sharp and work on his gameplan.

manos de piedra wrote:

I still dont get why he doesnt just have a rebuilding fight. It makes sense both financially to rebuild his stock and fan base, and competitively to stay sharp and work on his gameplan.

The main benefit of this for me would be to convince some of the cynics such as myself that he is looking to take this fight for reasons other than him wanting another payday.

rowley wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

I still dont get why he doesnt just have a rebuilding fight. It makes sense both financially to rebuild his stock and fan base, and competitively to stay sharp and work on his gameplan.

The main benefit of this for me would be to convince some of the cynics such as myself that he is looking to take this fight for reasons other than him wanting another payday.

Or that after potentially a year out of the ring and 2 years since his last meaningful win he actually has a hope in hell of winning.

manos de piedra wrote:I think if it ever does happen it will be more of the same and a similar outcome to the Wlad fight.

Haye will probably turn up for the money and play hide and seek. Vitali will control the fight but lacks the finishing skills to get rid of a Haye that is in survival mode.

Given you had a crystal ball on the last fight, I'm not going against you here.

The excitement of this fight will be in how much does Vitali have left. At 40+ father time is well and truly calling him - and there's only so much that a champ can do to stave off.

Maybe Haye gets lucky and comes forward to find Vit has got old overnight and his punch resistance has gone.

However - the last thing to go is a punch - which means Haye comes forward into Vitali's jab - with Vitali's right hand coming over the top. Vitali can punch. For a while he had the highest KO percentage of any HW champ in history.

For me - Haye is too concerned about protecting his chin to go fully balls out and keeps trying to make his smash and grab raids - gets caught a couple of times on the way and plays coy most of the fight.

He never wanted Vitali, remember - he was always always chasing Wlad. He wanted Wlad because he thought that if he landed his booming right it was good night Hamburg - and once wrong there wasn't anything else he could do. Whereas big Vit - he didn't chase nearly as hard. Which should tell us something.