haye v vitali ?

First topic message reminder :

whos going if it happens ? i will be after the dissapointment of hamburg ! i belive haye is so much better than the wlad performence ,

I was alluding to the fact I had not read the whole chain Scott, hence my it's his job comment, which given what had gone before served to illustrate rather than refute Alex's point.

I'm not sure what your point is Alex, you are criticising a promoter for promoting a fight, then when it is pointed out that it is the promoter's job to promote the fight you say that proves your point. What is your point?

rowley wrote:I was alluding to the fact I had not read the whole chain Scott, hence my it's his job comment, which given what had gone before served to illustrate rather than refute Alex's point.

Apologies for the misunderstanding

Union Cane wrote:I'm not sure what your point is Alex, you are criticising a promoter for promoting a fight, then when it is pointed out that it is the promoter's job to promote the fight you say that proves your point. What is your point?

That Fury-Harrison could well be billed as a 'Clash of the Titans'.

Scottrf wrote:

Union Cane wrote:I'm not sure what your point is Alex, you are criticising a promoter for promoting a fight, then when it is pointed out that it is the promoter's job to promote the fight you say that proves your point. What is your point?

That Fury-Harrison could well be billed as a 'Clash of the Titans'.

The Chancer v The Dancer?

Technically no.

The "Hagler/Hearns of the HWs" comment was made after watching an exciting 3 round fight containing 2 knockdowns (or was it 3 - I forget). However - after the fight means it wasn't billed as the Hagler Hearns of the HWs.

Nor was Chisora-Fury billed as the Thrilla in Manila/Fight of the century before the fight - it was billed as an exciting old school British HW clash - which, in fact, it was.

So there is insufficient evidence to safely conclude that Fury-Audley would be billed as "the clash of the titans".

PS.

Chancer v the Dancer is my post of the day.

Fury has turned down Harrison already, something along the lines of "Leave him to the dogs, I don't want to be going backwards in my career", Fury will probably take on Helenius in MSG in March.

As an aside, if Chisora / Helenius is for the European Title, what has happened to Dimitrenko?

I'd bill it as "the wife beater vs the dancing creature"

coxy0001 wrote:I'd bill it as "the wife beater vs the dancing creature"

Are you thinking of Chisora? Since when was Fury a wife beater?

oxring wrote:Technically no.

The "Hagler/Hearns of the HWs" comment was made after watching an exciting 3 round fight containing 2 knockdowns (or was it 3 - I forget). However - after the fight means it wasn't billed as the Hagler Hearns of the HWs.

Nor was Chisora-Fury billed as the Thrilla in Manila/Fight of the century before the fight - it was billed as an exciting old school British HW clash - which, in fact, it was.

So there is insufficient evidence to safely conclude that Fury-Audley would be billed as "the clash of the titans".

You missed the Channel 5 'Most exciting and active boxer, future of the Heavyweight division' adverts then?

Scottrf wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:I'd bill it as "the wife beater vs the dancing creature"

Are you thinking of Chisora? Since when was Fury a wife beater?

I'm just running with Chisora vs Audrey

Leave it, i'm hanging

If I remember correctly; and I do - Scott Belshaw was promoted by Hearn as "the second coming of George Foreman".

As for most exciting and active boxer - he's just given us an excellent 12 round UD over Chisora and 2 stoppages - both of which involved him being rocked on the way. I don't find him as exciting to watch as Kirkland, Canelo, Pacquiao, Martinez - however - domestically - that's more exciting than Khan.

Yes - he's not as good a boxer - yes his defence is woeful and his conditioning worse - but the fights are entertaining.

As for future of the HW division - you need to consult the rankings Scott - he's very much in the reckoning.

Alongside Magomed Ag... - (russian former amateur star), Boytsov, Helenius, Wilder, Ustinov and Pulev - he's very much in the mix.

When Tye Fields is in the top 50 and Franklin Lawrence is at 12 - you know things aren't going so badly. So actually - future of the HW division? Maybe he's not far wrong.

He will be found out when he steps up. In the mix at Euro level maybe.

OK how is 'The Brawl to Settle it All' - a nod to Spinks-Qawi for a precedent that it might be hyped as a Clash of the Titans?

Scottrf wrote:He will be found out when he steps up. In the mix at Euro level maybe.

OK how is 'The Brawl to Settle it All' - a nod to Spinks-Qawi for a precedent that it might be hyped as a Clash of the Titans?

Maybe, just maybe - I'm being too lenient.

I'll give you - the brawl to settle it all - is a touch brash and comes with some implications. However - I stand by the fact that it delivered - and technically, given most of the posters and prevailing public wisdom was that he'd lose to Chisora and wouldn't make domestic level - it did settle a fair bit.

As for when he steps up - the question is to whence will he step? I don't see him beating a Klitschko at the moment. However the next step down beneath them is probably "Euro level".

Which suggests to me that the HW division isn't in good nick at the minute.

Really liked the article yesterday - agreed with most of the points - although I didn't feel the bloke addressed the depth of talent issue. If Fury is top 10 - mostly because he's 6'9 - that's a problem in the weight class.

Immediately I wouldn't mind seeing him in with the Price-McDermott winner.

The next step to Euro type standard would be the Helenius, Chagaev, Peter, Thompson level fighters.

After that Solis, Chambers, Adamek, Arreola.

Then looking at Povetkin or the Klits.

It's a long way yet in my opinion.

Yeah the article was fairly decent wasn't it. Falls of a bit at the end though, after about point 10 it was awful. Clearly a Klitschko fan. Nethertheless some good points beforehand.

Fists of Fury wrote:Vitali certainly isn't too skilled for Haye, he is simply just too big and too hard.

Vitali went toe to toe with probably the greatest heavyweight of our generation in Lennox Lewis. The guy is highly skilled in a lot of departments more so than Haye. Hand and foot speed Haye may have an advantage, but for a man 6ft 5in+, Vitali is no slouch.

If we use names like Helenius, Chagaev, Peter, Thompson, Solis, Chambers, Adaemk, Arreola - it looks like Fury will never get there.

However, allow me to present you a scenario - not that unlikely. Helenius beats Chisora to become euro champ. Peter and Chagaev retire - no word from them after their last beat downs and they seem to be fading into obscurity. Chambers/Thompson fight a Klitschko and receive a mauling. Again. Arreola gets whipped by Wlad in march.

Leaves Adamek as the only available "step up" before next march - although Povetkin has also admitted interest.

Now Adamek struggles with bigger men - and were Fury to get his guard and jab right - he could edge that. Povetkin's opponents at HW have mostly been his size as well - and given his whole life has supposedly been a grand plan to depose the Klitschko's - maybe his team know something they're not telling us about how he deals with larger men.

Fury beats Adamek/Povetkin to get a shot at the K-bros next August...

Of all outlandish and ridiculous predictions - this will be my crowning moment if it comes true. Probably won't though. With a defence like Fury's he'll get stopped in his next fight.
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As for Vitali - Vitali has a nice range of shots and a decent jab - Haye has all the skills on paper but rarely puts the shots in come fight night. Throws punches in ones and twos rather than in bunches.

oxring wrote:If we use names like Helenius, Chagaev, Peter, Thompson, Solis, Chambers, Adaemk, Arreola - it looks like Fury will never get there.

However, allow me to present you a scenario - not that unlikely. Helenius beats Chisora to become euro champ. Peter and Chagaev retire - no word from them after their last beat downs and they seem to be fading into obscurity. Chambers/Thompson fight a Klitschko and receive a mauling. Again. Arreola gets whipped by Wlad in march.

Leaves Adamek as the only available "step up" before next march - although Povetkin has also admitted interest.

Now Adamek struggles with bigger men - and were Fury to get his guard and jab right - he could edge that. Povetkin's opponents at HW have mostly been his size as well - and given his whole life has supposedly been a grand plan to depose the Klitschko's - maybe his team know something they're not telling us about how he deals with larger men.

Fury beats Adamek/Povetkin to get a shot at the K-bros next August...

Of all outlandish and ridiculous predictions - this will be my crowning moment if it comes true. Probably won't though. With a defence like Fury's he'll get stopped in his next fight.
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As for Vitali - Vitali has a nice range of shots and a decent jab - Haye has all the skills on paper but rarely puts the shots in come fight night. Throws punches in ones and twos rather than in bunches.

Such a massive if, I can't really see him getting him out of there unless he really gets on top and starts pummelling him, so he would have to remain tight for 12 and box well, don't think Fury can do think against a good opponent, but I guess you never know, he could come good, but I doubt it.

Haye spends more time running than punching, probably have a repeat of the Wlad fight after which his reputation will be in complete tatters rather than just someone to poke fun at.

alma wrote:Can't see Fury beating Adamek really. Probably be a similar result to the Grant fight

Grant very nearly won that one. although i doubt fury has as much power as grant

To be honest it would suprise me if Fury got past someone like Grant... has a big punch and has alrightish ability and can go 12.

Fury will come unstuck against anyone who genuinly hits hard; his defence is almost none existant and in his last two fights he has been caught flush on numerous occassions!

alma wrote:

Lance wrote:

alma wrote:Can't see Fury beating Adamek really. Probably be a similar result to the Grant fight

Grant very nearly won that one. although i doubt fury has as much power as grant

Really? It was pretty comprehensive as I remember

nah, watch again mate, cant remember which round but grant badly hurt adamek, he was holding on desparately to the end of the round. won comprehensively on the scorecards, but he had a close shave, if grant had been a bit fitter he might well of got a ko

Lance wrote:

alma wrote:

Lance wrote:

alma wrote:Can't see Fury beating Adamek really. Probably be a similar result to the Grant fight

Grant very nearly won that one. although i doubt fury has as much power as grant

Really? It was pretty comprehensive as I remember

nah, watch again mate, cant remember which round but grant badly hurt adamek, he was holding on desparately to the end of the round. won comprehensively on the scorecards, but he had a close shave, if grant had been a bit fitter he might well of got a ko

Grant was almost KO'd by a 43yr old Botha (if he hadn't had to stop at the chemist for Remigel, he'd have won) at the weekend so all this talk of Grant being something special (again) are laughable. His lightly regarded WBF belt would also be an ideal promotion for Channel 5 and Tyson Fury. Even Fat Mick must have some pull with the WBF

DAVE667 wrote:

Lance wrote:

alma wrote:

Lance wrote:

alma wrote:Can't see Fury beating Adamek really. Probably be a similar result to the Grant fight

Grant very nearly won that one. although i doubt fury has as much power as grant

Really? It was pretty comprehensive as I remember

nah, watch again mate, cant remember which round but grant badly hurt adamek, he was holding on desparately to the end of the round. won comprehensively on the scorecards, but he had a close shave, if grant had been a bit fitter he might well of got a ko

Grant was almost KO'd by a 43yr old Botha (if he hadn't had to stop at the chemist for Remigel, he'd have won) at the weekend so all this talk of Grant being something special (again) are laughable. His lightly regarded WBF belt would also be an ideal promotion for Channel 5 and Tyson Fury. Even Fat Mick must have some pull with the WBF

The funny thing is that Grant isn't being talked about as anything special, just that he probably has enoug to nut in Fury, whcich what we're saying is that you don't need to be special to do it.

Audrey would have no problem seeing off Fury, as would Micahel Grant, despite being about 50

Steffan wrote:

alma wrote:Vitali KO6 if it happens

Cant see a KO if im honest. He failed to put Shannon Briggs away and at least Haye is a moving target

Failed to put him away! Man did you see that fight ? It was one of the most sickening beatings I've seen in a ring, the ref should have waved it off after 8 but instead let Shannon take 4 more rounds of brutal torture.

I dont really see the comparison with the Briggs fight. I doubt Haye could take one quarter of the punishment Briggs did in that.

The issue for me is whether or not Vitali can find Haye regularly enough to take him out.

In the last fight Haye was actual decent at avoiding punishment but he was a complete failure at pretty much every other aspect. If he goes for the same again then I give him a reasonable chance of hearing the final bell.

Vitali is too slow now. Briggs showed little to no head movement and ability to evade punches. Haye will have learnt from the Wlad debacle and probably be more aggressive. He is fast. Coupled with Vit clowing down to a pedestrian level, I see Haye peppering him with shots for 12 rounds. He will come through some shaky moments later in the fight as Vit becomes more aggressive knowin he is behind on the cards.

I wouldn't be surprised if the ref saves Vit.

you really think that haye will beat vit az?

AlexHuckerby wrote:you really think that haye will beat vit az?

I actually do. Vit is hugely overrated now. Adamek and briggs made his look better than he actually is. The Vit that fought Lennox would slaughter Haye, but that version is no more.

Vitali very rarely takes anyone out early these day's and usually wears them down,Vitali tends to dictate the pace of the fight,Haye would most definitely have to set a fast pace to knock Vitali out of his comfort zone and try to tire him,Vitali is 40 next year so as you more or less said azania his better day's have got to be behind him.
Do I want Haye to win if the fight takes place you bet I do.

Nico the gman wrote:Vitali very rarely takes anyone out early these day's and usually wears them down,Vitali tends to dictate the pace of the fight,Haye would most definitely have to set a fast pace to knock Vitali out of his comfort zone and try to tire him,Vitali is 40 next year so as you more or less said azania his better day's have got to be behind him.
Do I want Haye to win if the fight takes place you bet I do.

Its not a question of wanting Haye to win hence I'm backing him. I have always said that Haye has a better chance against Bit than against Wlad simply because Wlad is a far superior boxer than Vit. Vit is tougher but skill beats toughness and Haye has the skills to beat Vit. Namely his speed. Vit will tire hitting thin air. It wouldn't surprise me if Haye stopped him also.

Haye doesn't have to set a fast pace either.

Personally think he does need to set a fast pace the Klitschko's impose themselves on their opponents by fighting at their own pace,thats why Vitali wears his opponents down and beats them late on because the pace is comfortable for him.

Nico the gman wrote:Personally think he does need to set a fast pace the Klitschko's impose themselves on their opponents by fighting at their own pace,thats why Vitali wears his opponents down and beats them late on because the pace is comfortable for him.

Vit is very slow. Wlad is no slouch though. I believe Haye under-estimated Wlad. Having said that Wlad is better than Haye no a win for him was inevitable. But Vit is another story. He is over-estimated. He imposes himself on others because frankly others haven't gone in there with any ambition or expectation to win. Haye will. His ego wont allow him to be imposed by Vit. Haye comes to win and against Vit he will see that Vit is slow allowing his confidence to grow and he will commit more until the latter rounds where Vit will be out on his feet.

azania wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:Personally think he does need to set a fast pace the Klitschko's impose themselves on their opponents by fighting at their own pace,thats why Vitali wears his opponents down and beats them late on because the pace is comfortable for him.

Vit is very slow. Wlad is no slouch though. I believe Haye under-estimated Wlad. Having said that Wlad is better than Haye no a win for him was inevitable. But Vit is another story. He is over-estimated. He imposes himself on others because frankly others haven't gone in there with any ambition or expectation to win. Haye will. His ego wont allow him to be imposed by Vit. Haye comes to win and against Vit he will see that Vit is slow allowing his confidence to grow and he will commit more until the latter rounds where Vit will be out on his feet.

Like he did against Wlad???

His ego won't allow him to be imposed? You sure?

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:Personally think he does need to set a fast pace the Klitschko's impose themselves on their opponents by fighting at their own pace,thats why Vitali wears his opponents down and beats them late on because the pace is comfortable for him.

Vit is very slow. Wlad is no slouch though. I believe Haye under-estimated Wlad. Having said that Wlad is better than Haye no a win for him was inevitable. But Vit is another story. He is over-estimated. He imposes himself on others because frankly others haven't gone in there with any ambition or expectation to win. Haye will. His ego wont allow him to be imposed by Vit. Haye comes to win and against Vit he will see that Vit is slow allowing his confidence to grow and he will commit more until the latter rounds where Vit will be out on his feet.

Like he did against Wlad???

He wasn't good enough. As I said before the fight, Wlad is the superior boxer. His skills left Haye looking for pot shots in order to win.

The superior boxer? Wow, that's open to debate f'sure. For me he was just too big for Haye and that will be the case again should he take on Vitali.

Both Klitschkos are better boxers than Haye in my view. Better fundementals, better ring control, technically more solid.

manos de piedra wrote:Both Klitschkos are better boxers than Haye in my view. Better fundementals, better ring control, technically more solid.

They are or at least Vit was. He has slowed now giving Haye a very good chance of winning.

He probably has slowed but not enough for Haye to win off the back of what hes shown us in the Wlad and Valuev fights.

For Haye to win hes going to have to show us this extra gear that some people believe he has, as opposed to relying on Vitali being past his best.

Ive actually been impressed with Vitali since his return for a guy that is 40 and took a 4 year break. Hes certainly no slower or easier to hit than Valuev for instance and I dont think Hayes performance in that would be remotely good enough to beat Vitali.

He wasn't as fast as Wlad even at his peak. He gets hit more often also. He will start as favourite and rightly so. But I'd back Haye to pull off an upset.