The 4 Proud Provinces and the NIQs

All this talk of Ulster needing possible cover for backrow and other positions, and our recent purchases to cover full back, have got me thinking. If your province had none of their NIQs starting, how much weaker would your team look? Do you think you would get very far in the Heineken Cup with such a team? I will choose an Ulster side which has no NIQ players:

1) McAllister
2) Best
3) Court
4) Stevenson
5) Tuohy
6) Ferris
7) Faloon
8) Henry
9) Marshall
10) Humphreys
11) Gilroy
12) Wallace
13) Cave/Spence
14) Trimble
15) D'Arcy

TBH it doesn't look nearly as good.. I don't think we would scare the opposition too much with this side, and our only big name players there would be Ferris, Best and Trimble. The backline is probably the one I would play now however, with Pienaar out of the equation. I think there is some creativity and flair there.

Only Leinster could field an arguably same strenght XV

While I agree that ones like Danielli, Wannenberg and Diack might not necessarily be better than their Irish counterparts, Pienaar Afoa and most certainly Muller are by far and away better than their replacements... Christ Johann is basically the Ulster forwards coach this year... The NIQ players add something special and I would agree with Stag, only Leinster could field a similarly strong side without their NIQ players...

red_stag wrote:Only Leinster could field an arguably same strenght XV

I agree but if you picked a representative munster team like the old days (pre 2000 for you stag) it would be pretty strong
So ignoring injuries

1 Horan
2 Flannery
3 Ross
4 Doc or Ryan
5 Poc
6 Pom
7 Wally
8 Coughlan / Leamy

9 Tol/ Murray
10 Rog
11 Zebo
12 Downey / Dineen
13 Earls
14 Hurley
15 Deasy

Or have barnes in centre, deasy as sub oh and a back three of earls, hurley and zebo

Doesnt look particularly brilliant on paper but neither did the munster team that started out around 98/99

Ulster would be massively weaker in the 2nd row and halfback. Munster would be crucified at scrumtime.

You left out Felix Jones, DOD. Also Ulster do look severely weakened don't they? Some of our NIQ players are just core to the team. Especially Muller and Pienaar.

Leinster I think would noticeably be a worse off team without Nacewa though. I think he adds a ton to their game.

No..i picked munster qualified players i.e ross, downey etc even hurley who was born in meath but his dad is ex munster/cork

Dunno if were including injured players but heres the team.

1. Healy
2. Cronin
3. Ross
4. Cullen
5. Toner
6. O' Brien
7. Jennings
8. Heaslip
9. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Fitz
12. DArcy
13. O' Driscoll/ O' Malley
14. Horgan/Carr
15. Kearney

16.JHW
17. McGrath
18. Hagan
19. Browne
20. Mclaughlin
21. Boss
22. Madigan
23. Mcfadden

That is some strong first 15 and the bench isnt too bad except for maybe loose head and hooker.

As you can see by goldens team if you picked on provincial qualification then Ross and Cronin wouldn't qualify. And the leinster fr would struggle. Interesting

DOD wrote:No..i picked munster qualified players i.e ross, downey etc even hurley who was born in meath but his dad is ex munster/cork

Oh apologies I get it now.. Jones is from Leinster yes?

Yeah. Sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread, just thought it would be interesting to pick the provincial qualified players. Makes for interesting reading

Only real area of weakness i see for that leinster team is 2nd row gibbo. Dont think that is particularly inspiring. centres may become an issue too but there is so much talent coming through in the backs

I have always said that the Irish provinces would not be half as successful as they are now without their NIQ players. This is not a dig though, it is because the IRFU go around by doing this in the right way. I may be wrong, but doesn't each province have to go before the IRFU and justify any foreign imports they wish to sign ? All the NIQ players that are playing or have played for the four provinces have all been quality. The likes of Contepomi, Rocky Elsom, Paul Warick, and the one's that are still there, Isa Necewa, Doug Howlett, Botha, and many others that I have not mentioned have all been the corner stones of their sides, and without them, there would not be so many Heineken cup's or Celtic League titles. Compare those players listed above to the likes of what we have had over here. O.k we have had quite a few good one's but for every Tia Tia there is always a Sam Norton Knight, and to be quite frank about it, it really winds me up when you see a not so good overseas player taking up the place of a Welsh player of the same ability.

Fitzpatrick would start at TH and Court LH for Ulster.

If playing representative sides then Wilson and Bowe would be selected.

We would have no TH though ...since Simon Best retired

LordDowlais wrote:I have always said that the Irish provinces would not be half as successful as they are now without their NIQ players. This is not a dig though, it is because the IRFU go around by doing this in the right way. I may be wrong, but doesn't each province have to go before the IRFU and justify any foreign imports they wish to sign ? All the NIQ players that are playing or have played for the four provinces have all been quality. The likes of Contepomi, Rocky Elsom, Paul Warick, and the one's that are still there, Isa Necewa, Doug Howlett, Botha, and many others that I have not mentioned have all been the corner stones of their sides, and without them, there would not be so many Heineken cup's or Celtic League titles. Compare those players listed above to the likes of what we have had over here. O.k we have had quite a few good one's but for every Tia Tia there is always a Sam Norton Knight, and to be quite frank about it, it really winds me up when you see a not so good overseas player taking up the place of a Welsh player of the same ability.

You are right there, all signings/re-signings need to be approved by some secret committee in the IRFU. The system has its advantages but we still see some poor enough players being signed (Mariano Galarza, Rob Dewey, Sam Tuitipou (sp?)) and for every signing of a BJ Botha or an Elsom there’s a Warwick or a Hines heading off to France to get a better contract. Swings and roundabouts I suppose.

Here’s a Leinster representative team as per DOD’s Munster one above

Healy
Harris-Wright
Hagan
Cullen
Toner
O’Brien
Heaslip
Jennings
Willis
Sexton
Fitzgerald
McFadden
O’Malley
Carr
Jones

Tom Sexton / Aaron Dundon
McGrath
O’Connell
Bob Casey
McLaughlin
O’Donaghue
Madigan
Rob/Dave Kearney

Not so hot in the front row or at scrum half but the first XV is pretty good.

Now that Im at a computer and not my phone here is how I think Munster would fare with no NIQs.

01 Marcus Horan
02 Jerry Flannery
03 John Hayes
04 Donnacaha Ryan
05 Paul O'Connell
06 Peter O'Mahony
07 David Wallace
08 Denis Leamy
09 Conor Murray
10 Ronan O'Gara
11 Johne Murphy
12 Keith Earls
13 Danny Barnes
14 Denis Hurley
15 Felix Jones

16 Mike Sherry
17 Darragh Hurley
18 Stephen Archer
19 Donnacha O'Callahan
20 James Coughlan
21 Tomas O'Leary
22 Ian Keatley
23 Simon Zebo

Might aswell have a bash at a Connacht side.

wilkinson
Flavin
Loughney
Grace
Browne
McCarthy
Muldoon
O'conner

Murphy
O'Conner
O'Halloran
McSharry
Griffin
Tuohy
Duffy

Some of the forwards bit mixed up.

Its not a bad Connacht side at all.

Though surely you could play Swift instead of Grace at second row.

Just looking at the Connacht squad I always thought they were over the NIQ limit. But no they have 5 and their Project Player.

LordDowlais wrote: I may be wrong, but doesn't each province have to go before the IRFU and justify any foreign imports they wish to sign ?

Correct

LordDowlais wrote:All the NIQ players that are playing or have played for the four provinces have all been quality. The likes of Contepomi, Rocky Elsom, Paul Warick, and the one's that are still there, Isa Necewa, Doug Howlett, Botha, and many others that I have not mentioned have all been the corner stones of their sides,

The ones you mention are quality but there have many who are less than memorable and did not enhance the teams. I give you an Ulster backrow of NIQ asa exa,ple - Feather, Pfister and Webb.
Donkeys one and all

Here are some utter flops for Munster that could have been good - Brian Lima, Christian Cullen, Chris Wyatt - three top players. All proved to be useless signings.

Rob Dewey?

Stag

Was Cullen that bad at Munster, Thought he did ok.

Well when he played he did well but he was simply never fit. He was on big money for over 3 years and played only about 40 games for Munster.

By contrast Howlett his at Munster the exact same lenght of time now and he is closing in on his 100th game for Munster.

In Leinster we've had our fair share of flops to balance out the successes like Elsom, Nacewa, Conmtepomi, Hines. No doubt we all harbour fond memories of that useless fat lump CJ Van der Linde - came with a glowing CV but spent most of his time on the sidelines nursing a sore big toe! Jeez, and we thought they bred the Boers tough!

Brenno my favourite had to be Cameron Jowitt. Honestly if ever there was a pisspoor player it was him.

red_stag wrote:Brenno my favourite had to be Cameron Jowitt. Honestly if ever there was a pisspoor player it was him.

Here, he scored in THAT game against Toulouse.... he was poison though.

Rodders, am I mis-remembering but did Ulster not sign Rob Dewy a few years back and he was crap?

Some more Leinster flops here - Owen Finnegen, Juan Gomez, Will Green, Stephen Knoop, Eddie Henkenui.

Yeah Dewey was a bit of let down alright. He looked like a great signing as he'd had a cracking 6N just previously. Turned out to be an injury crock and didn't seemed to contribute very much at all, or at least if he did I can't remember what it was.....

Is Howlett the best NIQ signing of the lot?

Stag, forgot about Jowitt - not one of our more inspired signings certainly, although I do remember he actually scored a try in that away win in Toulouse a few years ago - nobody thought he had it in him. Going into the dim and distant past we also signed an OH called Eddie Hekenui (not sure about spelling) from one of the PI's. Showed they produce useless players in the islands too but at least he was a long time ago.

brennomac wrote:Stag, forgot about Jowitt - not one of our more inspired signings certainly, although I do remember he actually scored a try in that away win in Toulouse a few years ago - nobody thought he had it in him. Going into the dim and distant past we also signed an OH called Eddie Hekenui (not sure about spelling) from one of the PI's. Showed they produce useless players in the islands too but at least he was a long time ago.

Get. Out. Of. My. Head.

roddersm wrote:Is Howlett the best NIQ signing of the lot?

Its a tough one. He possibly is the best of the entire lot. Arguably though he isn't even Munsters best NIQ signing compared to say Jim Williams who went on to captain Munster and coach Munster to a HEC victory. He took a 24 month contract and stayed nearly 7 years with Munster as a player and coach.

Not an actual NIQ but if you include bringing somebody from overseas, suppose you'd have to include Cheika as Leinster coach. An absolute gobsh1te by all accounts but he certainly knocked us into shape and instilled some of the steel than now runs through the team. Not in same category as Cheika as he seems to be a genuinely pleasant guy, Joe Schmidt has been a great signing as coach - now if only the IRFU would hire him part-time as backs coach!

Breno - IMO Jono Gibbes has been far and away the best coach you've brought in, followed by Cheika and then Feek. Schmidt is after those in my opinion.

Cheika for Ireland? Thoughts?

roddersm wrote:Cheika for Ireland? Thoughts?

The only vacant spot in the Irish set up is for backs coach. Cheika would not be a good backs coach IMO.

Could we see Eddie O'Sullivan in this capacity?

Most important signings for Munster = Halstead and Tipoki. One we miss the most = Tipoki

Halstead got us over the line in 06
Tipoki changed our style of play plus he makes Mafi play well.

DOD wrote:Most important signings for Munster = Halstead and Tipoki. One we miss the most = Tipoki

Halstead got us over the line in 06
Tipoki changed our style of play plus he makes Mafi play well.

I don't know about most important but they were certainly right up there with J.Williams and Howlett

Howlett and Williams are/were great signing but I think the most important was Tipoki. Great leader, read the game well, made others play well and bought into the Munster ideal in a big way. He was completely bonkers of course but that also helps.

Ah Tipoki, I remember Darren Cave taking him to school a few season back...

Howlett is still the numero uno for me in terms of his consistancy and influence. One of the best modern (ever?) wingers near the peak of his powers. Awesome player.

roddersm wrote:Ah Tipoki, I remember Darren Cave taking him to school a few season back...

Howlett is still the numero uno for me in terms of his consistancy and influence. One of the best modern (ever?) wingers near the peak of his powers. Awesome player.

Did he take him to school as part of show and tell so Tipoki could explain the idea of winning to Cave?

We would do ok without Howlett we didnt without Tipoki.

DOD wrote:

roddersm wrote:Ah Tipoki, I remember Darren Cave taking him to school a few season back...

Howlett is still the numero uno for me in terms of his consistancy and influence. One of the best modern (ever?) wingers near the peak of his powers. Awesome player.

Did he take him to school as part of show and tell so Tipoki could explain the idea of winning to Cave?

I think it's only in the last five years that we've got 5 top class NIQ players at each province, before that they were maybe one class and 4 decent NIQ players at each Province.

The IRFU and provinces realised their importance and have recuited better than in the past, it's Connachts turn and improving thier NIQ players at present, think of the quality of the NIQ players there now and 5 years ago.
Ulster are the same the worst NIQ player we have is Danielli, and thats because when he came he was a good NIQ, by th estandard of NIQ player at the time.
he's be with us since before the step up in class NIQ player recuitment.

The Welsh regions will realise the same in time, but they also complain if you remember about the limit on their NWQ players, and their budgets, not allowing them to compete. Don't hear a mention of this, this year mind.

I think we may hear a few complaints when it goes down to 4NIQ players, but quality has been improving over the years.

red_stag wrote:Its not a bad Connacht side at all.

Though surely you could play Swift instead of Grace at second row.

Just looking at the Connacht squad I always thought they were over the NIQ limit. But no they have 5 and their Project Player.

Isn't the project player counted in the 5, not in addition to the five?

Anyway, I counted 7!

Currently it is 5 NIQ + 1 Project
Strong rumour this will be 4+1 next year.

Interesting no Project player has played for Ireland and Strauss is the only one likely to in the forseeable future and that is far from certain.

Connacht fans will know better than me but could Rodney Ah You be a potentially "successful" (I hope the Project Player system crashes and burns" project player.

Greybeard actually yes I count 7 not 6. Apologies.

One of the myths of the Project system is that it is being used to get players in to ultimately play for Ireland - its not. It a way of the Provinces to enhance a perceived weakness in their set up. Any spin off for the natioanl team would be secondary and as I say it has not occurred - yet.

Take Payne - I am 100% convinced he will never play for Ireland. After his spell here he will be back to New Zealand to try and claim an All Black spot.

Its nonsense isn;t it Geoff. Why not just say its 5 NIQ players - it allows us to sign international class players.

red_stag wrote:Its nonsense isn;t it Geoff. Why not just say its 5 NIQ players - it allows us to sign international class players.

Because the Provinces are not clubs and it is still about the Ireland team plus it is the thin end of the wedge leading ultimately to the same situation in France and England.

But DOD how does the Project Player system help Ireland. It has never been used.

I agree Stag I would rather we were upfront and honest and say it is 6 NIQ droping to 5 NIQ not this +1 nonsense.
If a Provinces sign a non International who subsequently settles here and plays for Ireland as his new home, ala Andy Ward, that is fine; better than this double talk which smack of hypocracy.

For Leinster, Felipe to my mind has helped Leinster the most over a period of time - opening up the Leinster backs to creative play.
For his short period of time, Elsom's contributions were a bargain. He put Leinster over the top and was THE leader in the pack with great support from Cullen, Jennings, Heaslip. Leinster really adapted their game as well to fully utilise Elsom's strengths. So much so, that on his return to Oz no team was going to give him that much free licence. But a staggering contribution for 1 year.