The 4 Proud Provinces and the NIQs

First topic message reminder :

All this talk of Ulster needing possible cover for backrow and other positions, and our recent purchases to cover full back, have got me thinking. If your province had none of their NIQs starting, how much weaker would your team look? Do you think you would get very far in the Heineken Cup with such a team? I will choose an Ulster side which has no NIQ players:

1) McAllister
2) Best
3) Court
4) Stevenson
5) Tuohy
6) Ferris
7) Faloon
8) Henry
9) Marshall
10) Humphreys
11) Gilroy
12) Wallace
13) Cave/Spence
14) Trimble
15) D'Arcy

TBH it doesn't look nearly as good.. I don't think we would scare the opposition too much with this side, and our only big name players there would be Ferris, Best and Trimble. The backline is probably the one I would play now however, with Pienaar out of the equation. I think there is some creativity and flair there.

Read in the paper at the weekend that Kidney isn't hiring a new backs coach for this years Six Nations. Hope he hires one after the tournament.

geoff998rugby wrote:I agree Stag I would rather we were upfront and honest and say it is 6 NIQ droping to 5 NIQ not this +1 nonsense.
If a Provinces sign a non International who subsequently settles here and plays for Ireland as his new home, ala Andy Ward, that is fine; better than this double talk which smack of hypocracy.

Agree 100% with this.

Project players are neither qualified to play for Ireland nor are they (and may never be) Test standard.

I'd also bring in a stipulation that every NIQ player must start at least once during the season for the HEC team. What is the point in filling up provincial squads with foreign journeymen? There are enough young players being produced to fill up the understudy slots without clogging them up with NIQs. Leinster are especially culpable here where possibly only Nacewa and Strauss are HEC starters.

Ugh,why the hell not.Unless he's going to take over personally and introduce some new ideas?

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I agree Stag I would rather we were upfront and honest and say it is 6 NIQ droping to 5 NIQ not this +1 nonsense.
If a Provinces sign a non International who subsequently settles here and plays for Ireland as his new home, ala Andy Ward, that is fine; better than this double talk which smack of hypocracy.

Agree 100% with this.

Project players are neither qualified to play for Ireland nor are they (and may never be) Test standard.

I'd also bring in a stipulation that every NIQ player must start at least once during the season for the HEC team. What is the point in filling up provincial squads with foreign journeymen? There are enough young players being produced to fill up the understudy slots without clogging them up with NIQs. Leinster are especially culpable here where possibly only Nacewa and Strauss are HEC starters.

Surely the more irish players playing the better. Isnt it a good thing that leinster have enough home grown players of that quality?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Ugh,why the hell not.Unless he's going to take over personally and introduce some new ideas?

As per the irish times column...

"There will, however, not be a new backline coach to replace Alan Gaffney, whose contract wasn’t extended prior to the World Cup, unlike Kidney, defence coach Less Kiss, forwards coach Gert Smal and kicking coach Mark Tainton.

The union view is that there is not enough preparatory time to add a new voice to the coaching ticket ahead of the Six Nations.

Kidney, Kiss and Tainton – who along with Smal are contracted until the end of next season – will oversee Ireland’s attacking strategy."

They have only two sessions with the players prior to the 6ns. More than likely Kiss and Tainton will take it on.

So Munster forward moves coupled with Leinster back moves with any players not familiar with either (hard luck Ulster players, Tommy Bowe and any Leinster forward or Munster back) running dummy lines.
Sprinkle some barnstorming SOB and Ferris runs and attacking job done!

I suppose that makes some sense seeing as there are no autumn internationals.I hope they'll get someone on board for the tour to NZ.

On the project player debate. Can we create two new acronyms as there aren't enough on here already;

NIQ - Never Irish Qualified
NQIQ - Not Quite Irish Qualified

thebandwagonsociety wrote:So Munster forward moves coupled with Leinster back moves with any players not familiar with either (hard luck Ulster players, Tommy Bowe and any Leinster forward or Munster back) running dummy lines.
Sprinkle some barnstorming SOB and Ferris runs and attacking job done!

Ross, Healy, Best, SOB, Heaslip, Ferris....lucky your not in charge....

DOD wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:So Munster forward moves coupled with Leinster back moves with any players not familiar with either (hard luck Ulster players, Tommy Bowe and any Leinster forward or Munster back) running dummy lines.
Sprinkle some barnstorming SOB and Ferris runs and attacking job done!

Ross, Healy, Best, SOB, Heaslip, Ferris....lucky your not in charge....

The starting backs could well include Murray,Earls,Trimble,Bowe and Felix Jones as an outside chance(will he be fit in time?)

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:So Munster forward moves coupled with Leinster back moves with any players not familiar with either (hard luck Ulster players, Tommy Bowe and any Leinster forward or Munster back) running dummy lines.
Sprinkle some barnstorming SOB and Ferris runs and attacking job done!

Ross, Healy, Best, SOB, Heaslip, Ferris....lucky your not in charge....

The starting backs could well include Murray,Earls,Trimble,Bowe and Felix Jones as an outside chance(will he be fit in time?)

Okay, you got me well and good there. Just because I have this idea in my head that POC, as pack leader, along with the starting scrumhalf, high probability of Murray, would control choice of the forward moves and the starting outhalf, Sexton, would be responsible for calling the plays to be run by the backline and with AG not being replaced in the coaching team, that the coaches would lean towards relying on the pre-existing knowledge of the play callers for both facets of attack and not invest significant time coming up with new plays and trying to get the squad up to speed with little practice before the 6Ns. Madness on my part.

Well I'd say they'll rely on the old moves but it'll be Irish forward and back moves instead of trying to teach the provincial moves to everyone.
I'd say Schmidt and Foley would do their nut at the idea of their players giving out there secrets to their greatest rivals.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Well I'd say they'll rely on the old moves but it'll be Irish forward and back moves instead of trying to teach the provincial moves to everyone.
I'd say Schmidt and Foley would do their nut at the idea of their players giving out there secrets to their greatest rivals.

They may stay with the old moves, but defences watch tape and will be prepared for any old moves. If they think we haven't been practicing new moves, it makes their job even easier. The quickest way to introduce new moves is to draw from what the decision makers on the field already run at club level.

On the giving out secrets, I'd hate to think the squad hold back ideas (not giving Ireland the best competitive advantage possible for any game) because they are putting their Province first.

It does make sense. There probably isn't enough time for a new backs coach and his ideas to be integrated. But like I said. I do hope they hire someone after the 6Nations.

Back to the topic. I think it's unfair to suggest 5 Irish Heineken Cup wins is down to better foreign recruitment than Welsh teams. If anything the Irish success in Europe is more down to local pride and passion than foreign influences. Although the foreign influences do help.

Contepomi, Elsom, Nacewa and Hines were all great for us. And nobody's mentioned Ollie le Roux. He helped us a lot in building a tougher pack. But we've had some duds too. Van der Linde was an expensive mistake. I don't like signing average foreigners to fill out the squad either. Like Shaun Berne. Although Sin e did think he was better than Sexton.

Feckless Rogue wrote:It does make sense. There probably isn't enough time for a new backs coach and his ideas to be integrated. But like I said. I do hope they hire someone after the 6Nations.

Back to the topic. I think it's unfair to suggest 5 Irish Heineken Cup wins is down to better foreign recruitment than Welsh teams. If anything the Irish success in Europe is more down to local pride and passion than foreign influences. Although the foreign influences do help.

Contepomi, Elsom, Nacewa and Hines were all great for us. And nobody's mentioned Ollie le Roux. He helped us a lot in building a tougher pack. But we've had some duds too. Van der Linde was an expensive mistake. I don't like signing average foreigners to fill out the squad either. Like Shaun Berne. Although Sin e did think he was better than Sexton.

you forgot to finish the sentence. I'll help you out !
Shaun Berne was better than Sexton at getting the Leinster backline moving.

Feckless Rogue wrote: Back to the topic. I think it's unfair to suggest 5 Irish Heineken Cup wins is down to better foreign recruitment than Welsh teams. If anything the Irish success in Europe is more down to local pride and passion than foreign influences.

Certaintly true that the Ulster win was almost exclusively homegrown

12 of the starting XV were Ulster born and all still live in the Province
1 was Irish by residency and he still lives in the Province (Andy Ward)
Only 2 NIQ - Blair and Mason

Sin é wrote:
you forgot to finish the sentence. I'll help you out !
Shaun Berne was better than Sexton at getting the Leinster backline moving.

cracker Sin, you really are the scourge of Leinster!

Geoff didn't Mason play full back for Ireland or did I dream that up??

Golden wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I agree Stag I would rather we were upfront and honest and say it is 6 NIQ droping to 5 NIQ not this +1 nonsense.
If a Provinces sign a non International who subsequently settles here and plays for Ireland as his new home, ala Andy Ward, that is fine; better than this double talk which smack of hypocracy.

Agree 100% with this.

Project players are neither qualified to play for Ireland nor are they (and may never be) Test standard.

I'd also bring in a stipulation that every NIQ player must start at least once during the season for the HEC team. What is the point in filling up provincial squads with foreign journeymen? There are enough young players being produced to fill up the understudy slots without clogging them up with NIQs. Leinster are especially culpable here where possibly only Nacewa and Strauss are HEC starters.

Surely the more irish players playing the better. Isnt it a good thing that leinster have enough home grown players of that quality?

Absolutely! It's great that Leinster have the quality of Irish player to start, so why can they not also find Irish understudies? Why do they need to have more than say two or three NIQ players in total?



AFAIK Mason has 3 Ireland caps and Mark Blair has 7 Ireland A caps.

Quite right Great A. that should have said non Irishmen.
Which given they have both gone home is what I consider them inspite of any honours