The England RWC report leaked - "There's £35,000 just gone down the toilet"...!

by maestegmafia Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:56 am

First topic message reminder :

Not nice reading for any rugby fan of any nationality, lets hope this attitude is not prolific. These articles below capture the cynicism of modern professional sport at its worst.

Looks like the players and MJ were more to blame than Rob Andrew who apparently according to Stuart Barnes last weekend strongly advised against having MJ as coach.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/23/england-world-cup-fiasco-leaked-report

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8907491/England-players-reveal-sharp-divisions-in-the-camp-during-dismal-World-Cup-campaign-in-New-Zealand.html

by gregortree Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:49 am

Please stay on topic guys. Maesteg has kicked off a perfectly reasonable England vs England thread.
I'm sure he does not want it to wander off into a tedious Wales vs England sh#t fest.

by Geordie Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:03 am

Poorfour wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
red_stag wrote:A young, popular and above all else sensible captain is needed. Who do you go for though?

Tom Wood?
Dylan Hartley?
Tom Croft?

If the quote about Robshaw and Wood is true (“[Chris] Robshaw and [Tom] Wood proved themselves to be the fittest, the strongest and played out of their skin in training, but then they were overlooked for senior players and we reverted to type.”), then one of them would seem to be a good choice for Captain. In Wood's favour, he has more international experience and is seen by most as a nailed on starter. In Robshaw's favour, he has two years of captaincy experience with his club, would be a clean break from the RWC 2015 squad, and by the sound of things would have more caps if selection had been on merit and form.
Poorfour, could you accommodate both Wood and Robshaw in the same backrow?

Yes, unless you want an out and out seven - but I don't think any of the EQP openside candidates are ready yet.

Actually i think this woudl be a great balance. Whilst Wood isnt an out and out 7...he has the skills to play that. He loves working i nthe thick of it...at the break down etc...and it a tough physical competitor. Where he lacks is maybe the ball carrying...where Robshaw is stronger...and more physical than Croft who has been playing 6. Put the only real option at 8 that is Easter (short term now though), and you have a stronger back row than the WC.
I would even consider Wood for Captain....

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:08 am

Ditching Croft would be a big call for any new coach?

by Geordie Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:12 am

Croft causes a split between a lot of England fans though As long...

Most agree he's a talent...but many of those think we dont have the team to play to his strengths at the mo so he's wasted...whereas others think he's a must for the 6 spot....

As you can probably tell im in the first lot...think we need to address the back row.

by red_stag Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:14 am

Is the "Croft to 2nd Row" experiment ended?

He'd compliment Lawes nicely.

by Geordie Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:17 am

I think "The Dilema of Croft" would need a thread on its own Stag mate. And i sure there has been a few...

by red_stag Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:19 am

My take on Croft is that he is a fantastic individul player but the England backrow seems to suffer when he plays.

by Geordie Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:22 am

And that is how probably half the England fans think....of which i am one....

However....the other half..including the likes of Sam on here are very much of the school that he SHOULD be in the England team....

Now they see him regularly for Tigers so probably have more knowledge...but i just cant help thinking that we lose a little in the physicality stakes...which is crucial at International level...

by yappysnap Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:19 am

The worst thing is that the old coaching team were too scared to even try any other players over croft (apart from Worsley) at six. If we try Robshaw and Wood and it turns out that Croft is still the best then fair enough, but please let's actually give some others a go.

What's holding the backrow back more is a lack of good 8's. We have none. The only options are too young, too broken or too out of form. And you could say the same if you wanted an out and out fetcher in there too.

by majesticimperialman Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:58 am

From what i have seen thier is not anything about Rob Andrew, which does make you wonder if it was him the leaked this report in the first place.

What damage does this do to the whole of the RFU and Rob Andrew in particualer. Has he orderd these reports to take the gloss off him, and point the finger soley at Martin Johnson's management of the England side.

And if he did order the reports, who had accesss to them to beable to leak the reports?

by PJHolybloke Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:29 am

It's about time someone got a grip at the RFU, how the hell do they expect to gain the respect of the players when confidential reports appear in the press within days of being completed?

Certain elements of the reports really didn't need saying, MJ didn't punish players for ill-discipline, you don't say?

Some players were more interested in securing commercial deals than securing England ball at the breakdown, you don't say?

Some players thought training hard was being too keen, you don't say?

England went into certain games without a plan - really?

Some players didn't do their homework and were less clued up on the plays than others were, well they nearly got away with that one - not.

I hope these reports didn't cost much, most of that was pretty obvious from 12,000 miles away.

Ben Foden has hit the nail squarely on the head, England failed as a unit.

The RFU now have to make themselves into a viable "unit" before they can make any progress in producing an England set-up that can at least make us proud of their efforts.

I don't expect England to turn up at every game looking like world-beaters, but I do expect them to turn up and look like they want to be, it's a basic requirement surely?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:55 am

majesticimperialman wrote:From what i have seen thier is not anything about Rob Andrew, which does make you wonder if it was him the leaked this report in the first place.

What damage does this do to the whole of the RFU and Rob Andrew in particualer. Has he orderd these reports to take the gloss off him, and point the finger soley at Martin Johnson's management of the England side.

And if he did order the reports, who had accesss to them to beable to leak the reports?

I believe that Rob Andrews is just too politically astute to have risked the fallout if he was caught leaking the reports, so part of me wonders whether it was done in an effort to further discredit Squeaky?

by offload Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:30 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:From what i have seen thier is not anything about Rob Andrew, which does make you wonder if it was him the leaked this report in the first place.

What damage does this do to the whole of the RFU and Rob Andrew in particualer. Has he orderd these reports to take the gloss off him, and point the finger soley at Martin Johnson's management of the England side.

And if he did order the reports, who had accesss to them to beable to leak the reports?
I believe that Rob Andrews is just too politically astute to have risked the fallout if he was caught leaking the reports, so part of me wonders whether it was done in an effort to further discredit Squeaky?

Any previous revalations would quite simply be dwarfed by the scandal that Andrew was behind the leak. Whistle

by gregortree Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:32 am

And the other question this raises: Was Tuilagi pushed, or did he jump ?

by offload Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:05 am

The plot thickens........

by majesticimperialman Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:12 am

offload wrote:The plot thickens........

Surely if, if this leaked report did come from the department of Rob Andrew. The surely he cannot remain in his job.

by mr-bryns-attitude Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:14 am

a former scotland yard detective has been called in to investigate, serious stuff-------

by hawalsh Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:16 am

I thought Ben Kay's comments today were quite interesting, both critical and in support of the players.

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/154865.html

Former England lock Ben Kay said he was "not surprised" to learn senior players had been criticised in the reports...

"Some of the senior players never grew up," he told ESPNscrum. "They were the young cheeky ones in the 2003 and 2007 squad and some haven't really grown up. And if you look at leadership in that group of players it was sadly lacking throughout the campaign."

But he said the blame for a growing money-dominated culture had to be shared with the RFU. "Yes, Lewis [Moody] probably wasn't the right person to be questioning the amount of money they are being paid. But having been involved in the Team England Executive Committee I know in the past the RFU would give the players as little as they felt they could get away with and leave negotiations as late as possible to try and put the pressure on the players to accept.

"The RFU hold most of the cards and players only point of bargaining power is the refusal to take part in certain situations in which the RFU are making money out of the players, ie: not appearing for dinners, sponsors or as a last straw, matches."

"The Rugby Players' Association and the RFU obviously had different figures in mind which were a way apart...(Rob Andrew) should have ensured an agreement was in place long before a couple of weeks before the tournament started."

by offload Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:18 am

majesticimperialman wrote:
offload wrote:The plot thickens........

Surely if, if this leaked report did come from the department of Rob Andrew. The surely he cannot remain in his job.

Majestic, I would agree. But please don't call me Shirley.

(This is getting a bit silly)

by hawalsh Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:26 am

"Some of the senior players never grew up," he told ESPNscrum. "They were the young cheeky ones in the 2003 and 2007 squad"

Which of the following do you think he was referring to?

Thompson
Shaw
Moody
Wilkinson
Tindall

Mears
Sheridan
Stevens
Easter
Flood
Cueto

by Hood83 Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:49 am

hawalsh wrote:"Some of the senior players never grew up," he told ESPNscrum. "They were the young cheeky ones in the 2003 and 2007 squad"

Which of the following do you think he was referring to?

Thompson
Shaw
Moody
Wilkinson
Tindall

Mears
Sheridan
Stevens
Easter
Flood
Cueto

I'll happily stick my neck out and unfairly besmirch a few of these guys :-)

Tindall, Easter and Thompson would be my bets. Possibly Mears and Cueto but i doubt the latter. I don;t think any of the others fit the bill as guys to take the p - definitely not Flood or Wilko. Stevens you'd hope would wise up, Sheridan and Shaw are too dull to be partygoers i'm guessing.

In addition i think Haskell, Ashton and Hartley were clearly playing up. None of them strike me as particularly mature. That said, i do think Haskell and Ashton are both talented and take their rugby seriously. Certainly Haskell has improved as a result of hard work, so i wouldn't want to give them too much grief. The rest, good riddance.

I suppose there's a fine line between keeping things fresh but maintaining professionalism throughout. We didn't manage it.

by maestegmafia Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:15 am

majesticimperialman wrote:
offload wrote:The plot thickens........

Surely if, if this leaked report did come from the department of Rob Andrew. The surely he cannot remain in his job.

Why Rob Andrew?

He advised against this Martin Jonson regime.

Surely he should be in for praise, not firing?

by flankertye Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:33 am

Having watched the O2 inside line, which is a series of short films filmed by James Haskell of the squad it would seem that Hartley, Haskell and Ashton were very silly. However Haskell is well known for his hard work ethic, he actually came out of the world cup with his reputation enhanced.
I think it would be Easter and Tindall. Drop them and get the new guys in.

by TycroesOsprey Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:43 am

his reputation enhanced? neither on the pitch where he was ineffective or off it where he along with Ashton were responsible for intimidating behaviour and sexual language to the hotel staff. How can you say his reputation is enhanced? its back in the gutter where its been ever since he got kicked out of school.

by flankertye Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:58 am

He was actually, commonly one of our best forwards. I had forgotten the hotel staff incident mind you.
So yeah, a massive blip on what would have been a decent tour.

by niwatts Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:03 am

Suspended, not kicked out.

by England rugby fan Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:08 am

TycroesOsprey wrote:his reputation enhanced? neither on the pitch where he was ineffective or off it where he along with Ashton were responsible for intimidating behaviour and sexual language to the hotel staff. How can you say his reputation is enhanced? its back in the gutter where its been ever since he got kicked out of school.

Do stop making things up.

by TycroesOsprey Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:17 am

Asked to leave and escorted on and off the premises for his exams. Thats not making things up its a matter of fact and in the public domain already. thumbsup

by maestegmafia Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:32 am

The Telegraph wrote:Sources suggested last night that the leak was part of an orchestrated move to heap further pressure on Andrew, who had come under fire following Johnson’s resignation last week.
Damian Hopley, the RPA’s chief executive, described the leak as “absolutely disgraceful” and called for security measures to “weed out these “self-serving people once and for all”.
The RFU’s disciplinary officer, Jeff Blackett, whose report into the sacking of John Steele as chief executive in June highlighted the problem of leaking at the top of the organisation, called Wednesday’s disclosures “the most serious leak that the union has ever experienced”. He has appointed a security firm to head up an external investigation.
Robertson said the reports provided further evidence that the RFU needed to undertake fundamental reform “to get its house in order” before the 2015 World Cup on home soil, and that it had to take on board all the Slaughter and May review recommendations.
However, one RFU source said on Wednesday night it was almost certain that the RFU council would reject major elements of the Slaughter and May review, which called for the council to be reduced from 63 to 25 members who would represent five regional areas, and stripping it of all its executive powers.
As revealed by The Daily Telegraph on Nov 5, the review recommends that responsibility for council member elections is taken away from the constituent bodies, and limits council members to serve three three-year periods, which would force more than 20 of the present board to step down. It also says board members cannot stand for more than two three-year terms, which again will force the majority to resign.
The review also calls for women, ethnic minorities and disabled people to form at least a fifth of the council and that members’ clubs entitlement to apply for an allocation of Twickenham tickets should be phased out.

by eirebilly Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:33 pm

This is all just getting ridiculous now and its very clear to see that Mr Andrew is just not performing in his position.

I know that he cant control the media but he should have been support MJ in NZ whether or not he was his choice as manager. Personally i dont believe that the England players did too much wrong off the field in NZ but the media storm surrounding them was one of the worst and most disgraceful i have ever seen. Everything was blown out of proportion and where was Mr Andrew during all that?

This new media leak, of which we know little, has only gone on to prove that Mr Andrew is incapable of holding the position he does. Regardelss of the RWC, England did do reasonable well under MJ in spite of RA and not because of him.

by PJHolybloke Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:37 pm

eirebilly wrote:This is all just getting ridiculous now and its very clear to see that Mr Andrew is just not performing in his position.

I know that he cant control the media but he should have been support MJ in NZ whether or not he was his choice as manager. Personally i dont believe that the England players did too much wrong off the field in NZ but the media storm surrounding them was one of the worst and most disgraceful i have ever seen. Everything was blown out of proportion and where was Mr Andrew during all that?

This new media leak, of which we know little, has only gone on to prove that Mr Andrew is incapable of holding the position he does. Regardelss of the RWC, England did do reasonable well under MJ in spite of RA and not because of him.

+1

by eirebilly Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:57 pm

I am not playing captain hindsight here but even as an Irishman i can see that RA is seriously underperforming in his role.

Its well documented now that he was against MJ becomming manager but as a preofessional person he should have accepted it, moved on and provided MJ all the support he could give and not just let him hang.

MJ was very guilty of being extremely inexperienced in regards to the media coverage of his team in NZ and that is where you would expect an experienced director to step in and help him out. As i said the media storm surrounding the England team was disgracful and Mr Andrew allowed MJ to take all the flaq knowing full well that he was out of his depth there and that i find very irresponsible.

The longer RA stays in his role, the less chance England have of attracting a top class manager and the more English rugby will suffer. I just cant see RA stepping down or being removed any time soon either which would be quite worrying to me if i was an English fan.

by rapidsnowman Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:01 pm

Disgrace all of them.

The entire World Cup squad should never play for their country or England again!

Run

by Geordie Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:31 pm

BUt lets be honest....what has the leaks told us that we didnt already know??

1) Moodys captaincy was poor: That was blantantly obvious to all of us watching the games...

2) MJ had a lack of discipline: Again blatantly obvious...when other teams were having a couple of quiet ones England were getting sloshed...erm sorry but its a world cup...the peak of a rugby players game...they should be dry! I personally would have had a drinking ban....

3) MJ's loyalty to players: I think this again is higlighted in his selection policy which we all picked at long before the WC came about...picking players above those in form....

4) Coaching Issues: Again we all said England were slow ponderous etc good players were looking extremely poor and this comes from poor coaching...if the rumours are true that Flood and Youngs actually took over some of the training then that is BAD!

5) Rob Andrew: Well i think thats already been discussed.....

6) RFU in turmoil: Again nothing new...

by eirebilly Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:46 pm

Geordie;

I think that you will find that many teams at the RWC were having more than just a couple of quiet ones. Ireland had a couple of good nights out as did Wales (one night ending in 2 players having a fight outside a club) and Samoa whos manager has been fined 100 pigs for his part of his teams lack of discipline at the RWC and their drinking adventures.

The difference being in all this is that England had a media storm following in them and blowing anything and everything out of proportion.

I could see zero guidance coming from Rob Andrew in order to help MJ during the RWC and i find that unprofessional from RA.

by Geordie Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:53 pm

eirebilly wrote:Geordie;

I think that you will find that many teams at the RWC were having more than just a couple of quiet ones. Ireland had a couple of good nights out as did Wales (one night ending in 2 players having a fight outside a club) and Samoa whos manager has been fined 100 pigs for his part of his teams lack of discipline at the RWC and their drinking adventures.

The difference being in all this is that England had a media storm following in them and blowing anything and everything out of proportion.

I could see zero guidance coming from Rob Andrew in order to help MJ during the RWC and i find that unprofessional from RA.

Rob Andrew has much to answer for.....however with regards to the team...what help should MJ need? He is the Head Coach / Manager? The buck stops with him....not Rob Andrew. MJ disciplines the team....he sets the on pitch strategy...he tells his coaching team how he wants the game player...NOT Rob Andrew....

And whilst i was aware Ireland had a night out...i still maintain...i would have a completely dry world cup. If professional players cant get through a month without a drink theres something wrong....

by eirebilly Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:57 pm

I know what you mean Geordie but MJ was totally inexperienced when it came to such matters and Rob Andrew, as an experienced manager and director, should have had a word and stepped in to help him out and advise him. Just my thoughts though Smile

Dry tours will never happen i am afraid, the boys like a drink and its a good way to loose some frustration.

by Geordie Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:22 pm

eirebilly wrote:I know what you mean Geordie but MJ was totally inexperienced when it came to such matters and Rob Andrew, as an experienced manager and director, should have had a word and stepped in to help him out and advise him. Just my thoughts though

Dry tours will never happen i am afraid, the boys like a drink and its a good way to loose some frustration.

I understand what your saying Billy...and this is ultimately where RA is at fault...putting someone with NO experience in that position.

I also know there will never be a dry tour........wishful thinking....

Ale

by HERSH Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:31 pm

I recently watched the Lions DVD from 1997 and whilst it wasn't a dry tour players were aware that drinking too much will have an effect on their performance not just in the games but training.

This highlights the problem England had, too many players were guaranteed to win a starting test place whether they were performing well in training or not.

by GunsGerms Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:33 pm

gregortree wrote:And the other question this raises: Was Tuilagi pushed, or did he jump ?

Manu Overboard!!!

by red_stag Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:43 pm

Hersh I agree with you to some extent. Beer wasn't the problem it was the general attitude many players had.

by Geordie Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:46 pm

leinsterbaby wrote:
gregortree wrote:And the other question this raises: Was Tuilagi pushed, or did he jump ?

Manu Overboard!!!

by TJ1 Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:49 pm

On drinking - its clear Tindal has issues with drink if not serious problems.

He has been done for drink driving twice. His defence for not being right about where he was and when he got back was " I was too peed to remeber" and this is supposed to be acceptable.

tindal should have been confgronted over his drinking before. compare this to the treatment Stevens got for cocaine. Never convicted of a criminal offense, 2 years out of the Game. Tindal - at least in public nothing was done.

by GunsGerms Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:59 pm

The leaked comments situation is a little unfortunate especially for the coaches named and the players because it was meant to be anonymous and confidential. I'd bet if the Irish players were asked to give Frank anonymous assessments of the 07 debacle the findings would have been equally as stark.

Two points struck me firstly Chris Ashton. Its clear Johnson lost the respect of his players because he was too loyal/soft on them. I reckon you can trace this back to the Eng Aus game I think it was when Ashton was warned by Johnson for splashing down. Ashton the character that we now know he is ignored this warning and did it again. Johnson instead of disciplining him copped out and did nothing. A precedent was set for more indicipline.

Secondly, England like Ireland in 07 were on a high going into the wc, they had just won the 6nations. I think this must have meant a lot to the team as it had been almost 10 years since they had done this. Did the celebrations/hangover extend into the wc? They didn't go their in the right frame of mind that's for sure.

Brian Smith, Mike Ford and some of the other coaches are going to find it very hard to get decent jobs now I'd say though with Smith he did seem to be out of his depth.

Andrew I think we are agree is completely useless and his departure should be the catalyst for some much needed change. Bring in Dean Richards to set a few people straight. Shame he has lost his credibility because he is just what England need now.

by dogtooth Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:34 pm

i started a thread on this and then saw it was being discussed. ive just copied my post over. had to do it before the article gets deleted.

it is not good that all this muck is being chucked around. moody and jonhson are getting covered in it. rob andrew seems to have chucked a bit himself yet remains supprisingly spotless.

i think johnson has been treated pretty unfairly. he was dropped into a job he was scarcely qualified for. he has done a resonable job, 50% wins-ok, not good for england but not bad for a new, novice coach.

moody has been a fantastic performer, a reall great of the game. a big player with a big heart and not affraid to stick his face where others are afraid to put their hands. he is being slated for doing his job of trying to get a fair crack for his men.

rob andrews, we have all asked what it is he does. i reckon his primary purpose in rfu is to protect his own arse by using johnno and moody (in this case) as lightning rods and targets for the muck.

ok, a bit rambling and maybe it all looks a bit navie. but in summary; johnno has been unfairly treated and andrews should carry much of any blame for englands onfield/off field rwc troubles.

ok, nice to see you all. im returning to lurk mode. bye

by GunsGerms Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:48 pm

I actually think Andrew is a bit of a sly dog to name Moody as the guy leading the pay renegotiations especially given the picture of greed it paints re Moody. I doubt he is like that. For all we know he may just have been representing a group of player that approached him because he was captain.

I think that issue stinks of Andrew trying to stick the boot in to save face. Lightning rod being a good analogy.

by doctor_grey Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:57 pm

Leinsterbaby,
I had the feeling that MJ actually enjoyed the Ashton dive, and his remonstration was not more than pro forma. If he said with all seriousness "cut the sh*t", I am sure Ashton would have done so. In all other aspects, Ashton seems a regular boke. But, I agree this team was not put on the straight and narrow when away from home. And that ends at the top.

What I don't get is the huge difference between England's performance in the year leading up to, and through, the 6N. The team was improving, no doubts. So, something failed somewhere. There were some different players chosen, and Moody was coming off injury again. But there had to be more. Was Jonno not enforcing discipline when they were in Aus last year when they played so well?

Something, for me, just does not add up. Which makes the reports seem a bit self serving.

by GunsGerms Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:17 pm

I don't agree with you on Ashton. There is enough evidence now to suggest that he comes from the "because I'm worth it" loreal generation. Plus I feel Johnson against his better judgement wanted to appear not to be annoyed re the diving when a more experienced manager would have cut the bs out. That sh1t wouldn't fly in the Ireland camp.

The England camp need to restructure, get the right men in place and all bugger off to a hotel for a weekend for clear the air this time anonymous talks. Anyone who leaks stuff to the press should be keeled.

by doctor_grey Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:34 pm

That's OK. We can differ about Ashton. A lot of people do. But, he drives a Mondeo, not much to shout about there. You do have to admit, though, the lad can take a punch, eh?

For the rest of what you say, I completely agree with you. I originally wanted Rob Andrew sent to his maker on Tyburn Hill. But you gain more style points than I do. Keehaul the leakers. Nice! You are my hero for the day.

by GunsGerms Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:47 pm

Ha ha keel haul the lot of them I say!

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