Borthwick for 6 Nations

Good Captain and a good solid player, used as a scapegoat by the English management.

IMO he should he be back in the England squad as his a senior player with the right attitude and that is what England currently need, he is certainly no worse than Deacon or Laws and his past experience as captain would be a wonderful thing to have in the squad.

Justice_4_Borthwick

Well said Hersh

wheres that tumbleweed icon gone?

Peter your input is valued as always

Not that my opinion counts for anything but i stopped liking him as a player when he waved an imaginary card at the ref 6n before last. Don't need that sort of thing in rugby. Smacks of wendyball donchaknow!

That's professional sport for you Carpe.

You are not wrong Hersh. *Tear runs slowly down my cheek*

HERSH wrote:Peter your input is valued as always

You loved me till you found out I was welsh

he is certainly no worse than Deacon or Laws and his past experience as captain would be a wonderful thing to have in the squad.

He really isn't much cop at international level and with Robson and Parling in good form and both capable of running a lineout just as well as Borthwick why bother with him. Incidentally I'd have both Lawes and Deacon over Borthwick though I think Deacon should be left at Tigers for at least the start of the 6N in order to give the likes of Lawes, Parling, Robson, Attwood, Garvey etc.

Just out of interest does anybody have a vid to Borthwick grabbing a steward and throwing him away?

Might be a sound guy actually.

Sam they can't run a lineout as well as Borthwick.

Caretaker coach so with Moody and Tindall gone why not a caretaker captain. Let´s bring in Willy the Groundsman as coach and put in a player as captain that makes about as much sense.

How was he a good captain at test level? He was more belligerent than a rutting steer. His rapport with the ref was as effective as that waxy, greasy toilet paper once found in many public toilets. He didn´t get any clear resolution and only served to aggravate the problem.

Parling can (2010 final) and Robson is doing good things at Quinns. Not to mention both offer more in every other facet of the game than the lineout and captain experience. Seeing as Borthwick's leadership was pretty appalling when with England the captain experience thing is negligable.

Borthwick may be a good guy but he is no longer an international standard player if he ever was.

appointing him as captain was a mistake that is indicative of the way Johnson worked - backwards looking

England need to look tot eh future - the captaincy needs to be with someone young and forthright - and most importantly they need to be an automatic choice for the team

Please please make it so ...especially against Ireland.

If that is the best England can do god help them.
He was decent - he is now well past it

geoff998rugby wrote:Please please make it so ...especially against Ireland.

Recall for Cipriani and Noon too?

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/25604.html

Sam one match. I knew you would bring up that final. Borthwick was not match fit in that game.

Borthwick is the best lineout operator in the AP whatever you say. It's not a coincidence that Saracens had the best lineout last season.

That would be last season when Parling managed a total of 2 minutes of rugby? The season before the Tigers lineout was supreme.

Of course I was going to mention that game, it's the most high profile head to head between the two. Parling even stealing the lineout which effectively guarenteed Tigers victory. It was also one if not the greatest final.

Robson has got the lineout working very well at Quins and it's not like they have any massive lineout monsters to utilise there.

Sam thanks for reminding me how good Parling is.

Of course with the mighty Parling running the Leicester lineout they would have won the AP final and won the HC too.

Sorry I forgot about the Amlin Challenge Cup (they would have found a way to win it despite not being involved) and of course the most sought after prize, the holy grail of competitions, the LV cup.

Parling being available would have of course have affected Saracen's lineout hugely throughout the entire season.

Just knowing that Parling was injured meant Borthwick could breathe a sigh of relief.

Borthwick quakes in fear at the impending return at that colossal rugby goliath Geoff Parling.

Just saying his name sends a shiver through the spine of all 2nd rows throughout world rugby. His power,pace and of course lineout abilities are second to none as he dominates all challengers. Some locks just gape on in awe and stop what they are doing to watch this maestro at work.

Wait are we talking about Geoff Parling or is it Steve Borthwick?

Oh by the way Sam every man and his dog knows that in that AP final Borthwick was lethargic and way below par because has rushed back into the final after a serious injury. It was a poor tactical error by Venter to pick Borthwick in that final as he simply wasn't match fit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/7785339/Leicester-Tigers-v-Saracens-player-ratings.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/8542521/Leicester-Tigers-v-Saracens-player-ratings.html

Beshocked, you're thinking of Chuck Norris

Touched a nerve eh Beshocked? Might be a bit of a toss up for who has the biggest mancrush - yourself or Robshaw4englend!

Carpe Diem do you mean a mancrush on Geoff Parling or Steve Borthwick? Which? Perhaps you mean both?

screamingaddabs is Chuck Norris a 2nd row though?

My mancrushes come and go in phases.

Of course with the mighty Parling running the Leicester lineout they would have won the AP final and won the HC too.

Nah, but we might have had a credible lineout rather than the dross that was casually picked apart by Leinster after Deacon went off and which never really competed against Sarries.

True Sam. I am sure Parling isn't a bad lineout operator. He probably would have improved your lineout.

It's just a little difficult to compare the guy to a player with over 40 England caps and who is well known for being one of the best lineout operators around.

You are of course entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

Joking aside no I don't think Borthwick should be back in the England squad except for possibly having an experienced player.

Geoff Parling is no spring chicken. Would it be right to bring him into the England squad?

I've long been a fan of Geoff Parling and he was superb for us, but it is also fair to say he is getting on a bit (but not the Shaw catagory by a long stretch) and is suffering from injury again. Not really a viable option at the moment for England, but could he step up? Certainly.

Unfortunately I think Beshocked is right, England really do need someone with a world class ability to take off his scrum cap, stand on the half way line and swear at everyone in sight, including the officials. Borthwicks yer man.

Seems like Borthwick has the credentials to be a good coach after reading what the players think of him. I don't rate him as a player or an on-field leader but he seems to be able to do the business off the field and maybe a role as a forwards coach for England could beckon in future, if not head coach. Todd Blackadder is serving a brilliant apprenticeship and could be coaching the All Blacks in due course (I said due let's not rush him!)

i thought Borthwick was harshly treated, and would like to see him back in an england shirt

Actually I really do think Botha de Wick (sorry.. Borthwick in English) is a great club player, but his England days are done. We need to move forward, if like the Welsh, we have to bring in new blood and suffer a season or two while they gel and develop, then so be it.

The last thing we need to do is go backwards and start bringing in pensioners. That was Johnno's mistake afterall.... JW / MT / SS etc.

beshocked wrote:Carpe Diem do you mean a mancrush on Geoff Parling or Steve Borthwick? Which? Perhaps you mean both?

screamingaddabs is Chuck Norris a 2nd row though?

My mancrushes come and go in phases.

Chuck Norris plays where Chuck Norris wants to play. Coaches get round house kicked otherwise.

True Sam. I am sure Parling isn't a bad lineout operator. He probably would have improved your lineout

Anyone who takes the shirt from Ben Kay, who was the best lineout operator for England for about a decade, has to be pretty good.

Parling is still in his 20s, if coming to the end of them, there's no reason he can't be utilised. He was brought into the England set up for the OZ tour which is where he picked up the first of two nasty injuries. He is out for a few weeks at present but will return before the 6N. Robson at Quins may hold the ace though as he and Grey work well together.

Sam Kay's an old man though. He retired in 2009-10 so hardly as if Parling displaced him at his peak. He took over the when old guy had had his day - was on his way out anyway.

Someone had to take over the reins or you wouldn't have a 2nd row.

Parling is 28 with 0 caps for England. Also he is currently injured.

Borthwick is 32 with 57 caps for England. He is currently in good form.

Ben Kay retired at a 33 so only a year older than the man you are putting forward as the answer to Englands need for a lineout operator. Wasn't that long since Kay shunted Borthwick out of the England team at the RWC 2007. Big Ben retired because he had a lucrative deal from ESPN on the table and Tigers didn't have room for him in the salary cap (which was an error in hindsight) not because he was no longer up to the task.

Parling came on in leaps and bounds after signing for Tigers and would have represented them but for injury. He was in great form for Tigers before hobbling off at the weekend but will be back in about a months time.

You are also missing off George Robson aged 26 with 0 caps from the list of prospective lineout operators.

Sam I said it as a joke. Borthwick shouldn't be back in the England.

I am saying Borthwick is the best lineout operator of the three which he is. Is he better overall? Possibly not though.

Geoff Parling is constantly injured, a bit like Crane and Rees.

Next you'll be wanting Twelvetrees to partner him in the England 2nd row.

I supported the possible recall of Borthwick last year when England were short of second rows and their lineout was a mess goign into a world cup build up.
Now it would be a pointless and retrograde step, but theres no reason they couldnt get him onboard as a lineout specialist coach at some point.

Poll now added as it seems many of you are in agreement with me.

His the best lineout operator England have and is he really any worse than Deacon in open play?

I think choosing which players to have in the squad is the least of England's problems.

A poll should be started on whether they should have a squad at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy9ahXV6OO0

Hang on this article is about England not Wales, why all the interest guys?

They are all secret England fans. Underneath their Ospreys shirts they wear the red rose.

As I have seen HERSH trawl the Welsh articles for many years I thought it was time for a change.

Us Welsh are just trying to deflect attention away from our two game losing streak and capatins poor disciplinary record

westernosprey it's never a good thing to go down to Hersh's level. You'll never get back up!

Surprised the opposition haven't been voting yes.

Is the chat about Parling being no spring chicken a bit of fun? He's only just turned 28, he'll be 31 at the time of the next WC, which usually a 2nd row's prime.

I think maybe if his form is good enough - just like every other player...it's not rocket science!!!

His in good form, whats the betting Lancaster will select him now?

Borthwick for England

Am i the only one concerned about Robsons physicality...?

Yes good lineout operator...but he just looks small for a second row....

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

HERSH wrote:Peter your input is valued as always

You loved me till you found out I was welsh

You're about as Welsh as Shane Howarth