Borthwick for 6 Nations

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Good Captain and a good solid player, used as a scapegoat by the English management.

IMO he should he be back in the England squad as his a senior player with the right attitude and that is what England currently need, he is certainly no worse than Deacon or Laws and his past experience as captain would be a wonderful thing to have in the squad.

Justice_4_Borthwick

Please do - the supporters of the other nations would be delighted

How can you pick a man who never makes any yardage with ball in hand

geoff998rugby wrote:Please do - the supporters of the other nations would be delighted

How can you pick a man who never makes any yardage with ball in hand

Fair point, everyteams got one.
Irelands has just been made captain.

Hersh, POC has been made captain, not ROG...

munkian wrote:Hersh, POC has been made captain, not ROG...

Yes thats what Hersh was referring to

Somebody send an appointment to Specsavers to Hersh, or lie him down a chair for councelling.

Anyone who things Borthwick offers the same as Paulie in gaining hard yards is either blind or mad.

If Borthwick were a racehorse, he'd be shot in the paddock.

Time For Trumpton wrote:If Borthwick were a racehorse, he'd be shot in the paddock.

A small mercy to be saved the job of captaining England

Time For Trumpton wrote:If Borthwick were a racehorse, he'd be shot in the paddock.

If Brutal Borthwick were a racehorse, he'd be shot at birth

Guys. Lets be completely honest here.
Borthwick could be playing like Matfield in the 07 World cup and he still wouldn't get near the england team.
Simply because Borthwick doesn't smell right.
He's not part of this super slick new look england that Lancaster is trying to build.
Now, on to more pressing concerns. With no Borthwick and no Tindall... who is going to get the infamous England nose?

flankertye wrote:
Borthwick could be playing like Matfield in the 07 World cup and he still wouldn't get near the england team.
Simply because Borthwick doesn't smell right.

No, its because he was a rubbish player and a rubbish captain of England.

Hmmm, I wouldn't say he was a rubbish player being one of the best lineout operators in world rugby.

HERSH wrote:Hmmm, I wouldn't say he was a rubbish player being one of the best lineout operators in world rugby Bath.

I corrected it for you there Hersh .

He was a rubbish captain. Thats the main problem. Our lineout functioned well, but he couldn't carry to save his life. Something he has improved on this season.

How come players like Matfield say that Borthwick was one of their hardest opponents in the lineout they have played against?

It just seems a lot of people are quick to jump onto the anti Borthwick bandwagon without knowing the facts.

HERSH wrote:How come players like Matfield say that Borthwick was one of their hardest opponents in the lineout they have played against?

He didn't happen to say that to the English media by any chance? ...

Borthwick should not be any where near the England team. England need to move forward, and selecting Brthwick would be a step backwards. imo.

HERSH wrote:How come players like Matfield say that Borthwick was one of their hardest opponents in the lineout they have played against?

It just seems a lot of people are quick to jump onto the anti Borthwick bandwagon without knowing the facts.

Its not hard to understand HERSH (although I expect it is for you) - Borthwick is a very good line-out player, therefore, he was a difficult opponent for any player. Beyond the line-out, he's as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

I get the feeling you've been here before under a different name, maybe the mods should check your IP address?

Once again someone else jumps on the anti Borthwick media hyped bandwagon, have you ever watched him play, yes his not going to run the length of the pitch and score in the corner but he is a very effective player to have in the squad, plus he has the experience of captaining England.

To be fair hes probably the second best lineout operator in Europe after O'Connell and probably third in the world after Matfield (i know hes retired) and O'Connell.

Although without him England haven't exactly looked terrible in the lineout, in fact probably just as good so i wouldn't worry about that too much. Croft looks like he could be the lineout caller for England in the future if he can get a spot in the team.
And to be honest between Robson and Borthwick i'd choose Borthwick, i dont rate Robson really.

Get guys like Parling, Kitchner, Garvey in they look class.

Hersh Time for Trumpton has appeared under a fair few aliases. He has a history of being anti Saracens and as Borthwick is current plying his trade there.....

There are two sides to every argument.

Pros

Borthwick is in excellent form
He's one of the best lineout operators in Europe
His workrate is huge, you just need to look at his tackle count to see this
He has over 50 caps for England so has the experience.
He is an excellent captain for his clubs.
There are not many experienced 2nd row options available to England.

Cons
His age - he is 33.
He has never really convinced when playing for England.
His captaincy was not that inspirational for England.
He does not make many yards with ball in hand.
Lancaster's supposed emphasis is on young blood.

Ultimately it's up to Lancaster and his coaching team.

His only 33, compared to Shaw his just a newby

His captaincy was not that inspirational for England.
He does not make many yards with ball in hand.

Well those comments could be seen as understatements. He really was a terrible captain for England, he seems to be doing okay for Sarries but for England he was an embarrassment. I seem to remember the tabloids getting hold of some stats around that time that had shown Borthwick had made minus one metre ball in hand. He's a good lineout technician and solid grafter but isn't up to international standard.

Did you see the Tigers game Beshocked?

No Sam I don't have Sky.

It's always tough when you have a good club player playing well but one who you know, and it has been exhaustively proven, just won't cut it at international level.

I'm very much a form picker, but sometimes you just have to accept that club form doesn't always hand you the best international player.

Dan Parks has been an advocate of that theory for Scotland. For years our best option at fly half based on his performaces at Glasgow, and yet young Jackson made a really positive impact for Scotland last season, despite barely stringing two decent club performances together. Nick De Luca made his Scotland debut on the back of some barnstorming performances, and yet was dreadful when he started his international career. Max Evans began at Glasgow looking lightweight and skittish, frequently getting turned over in the tackle, then went on to become one of our best backs.

I think Borthwick has had his day. An honest toiler and a fine club player, but really no more than that.

No Sam I don't have Sky..

Shame. Parling had a cracker on his return from injury.

Bortthwick - never really good enough even at his peak and now a declining player.

he is too slow - that the crux!

He is ineffective becuse he is never there in the loose. Youneed more than set piece play from your forwards these days.

Compare him To lawes or Gray - these are the modern second rows

So - yes please include him for the calcutta cup and improve Scotlands chances

By the way Trumpton can we stay on topic.

Greenwood has also called for Borthwick to be looked at as a squad member for the forth coming 6 nations.

Looks like he knows a thing or two about rugby too.

No, this is new england we can't have any experience in the team, we must have young guys with as few international caps as possible, because as fans we find that really exciting....Of course as soon as we start losing because none of them have played international rugby before and disapear into their shells with no one to turn to we will all be patient and say its a work in progress...of course we will !!!

Haha all this new england hype is getting silly, if we don't have a few experienced players in the team then we will get no where !! One thing Johnson did very well was build a squad of young talent Youngs, Foden, Ashton, Wood, Lawes, Cole, Tuilagi, Hartley and exerience Palmer, Thompson, Cueto, Sheridan, Deacon etc and bring the youngs guys in at the right time into a WINNING team...what he did wrong was to question his own selction policy during the RWC when he needed to stick to his six nations winning guns.

Look all we need several chaps with 30 plus caps in the team otherwise guys like POC, Adam Jones, Sergio parisse, Kelly brown etc etc will have a field day putting the fear of god into our england youth.....build momentum, win games, then blood the youngsters when its right, otherwise we will have more anthony allen and matthew tait scenarios where youngsters are built up to the nth degree then spat out when they panic setting them back a year or two.

It is a shame that Parling has been out for so long because if hadn't then I believe he would be nailed on for the squad. He just showed what we have been missing for so long. As it is I think it would be difficult for Lancaster to put him in based on just one game.

killer,

If he got picked it would be based on the fact he was set to be Englands starting lock before his injury problems. Lancaster knows what hes all about. As you say it may be a bit much to see him in the side so soon, but theres a very strong chance he'll make the 32 man squad.


Stidy,

Are you trying to say that Borthwick is a winner and has momentum? Many would argue his international record suggests otherwise.
Lancaster has laid out his stall anyway, hes treating this England squad as a kids playgroup, I expect it to be based around existing EPS members aged 28 and under and Saxons players from the last 2 years.
Agree or not hes set on ditiching a good chunk of the older players and starting pretty much from scratch.

Oh I know it would be based on previous performances as well, I just meant having been out for so long and with other 2nd rows playing well I can see Lancaster going in another direction.

Agree. But its good hes back in the mix.

Englands injury problems are actually pretty light now, it looked to be egtting bleak last week but now Flood is expected to be fit and Parlings back playing. Tuilagi and Lawes may also be fit for the Scotland game.

Compared to previous years the squads going to be pretty close to the coaches first choice ( danny care aside) for the first time in a long time.

England missed Borthwick's lineout presence in the loss to France in the RWC.

The loss of that game is directly related to a failing line out in my view. England dominated early on, and set up a lineout 5 meters out - only to turn over the possession from a botched lineout catch, from which France cleared their lines and grew a foot. Tonga and NZ showed us that if you put points on France early they crack.

Twenty odd minutes later, another botched lineout led directly to a French try.

A further penalty from a lineout infringement put France clear.

That said, England need to find a replacement prior to 2015. Keep him in the squad until one makes himself apparent and he can share his talent.

Peter...and it could be very talented with the right players in the right positions....

Mitey....

I thought thats why Croft was there...for his expertise.

Parling is far more of a player than Borthwick is as is Robson...and im not a fan of Robson as i think he's too small or underpowered for Int. rugby.

With regards to Second Rows Ive said previously if Lawes is going to stay a more athletic lock...i'd like to see the coaches really work on his lineout ability....so he could be the lineout expert...but still with a physical side to his game...then play him with a monster like Garvey or Attwood...now that would be a nice mix...