The price we pay for having the best league?

One could argue for La Liga being the best league, and with Spain being one of the best international sides this argument could be weak.

However, why is it that for a country with the best league, we do so poor internationally, yet countries like France, Italy or even Brazil that can't match the quality of ours seem to do better?

Do we pay a huge price for how great our league is (due to attracting and bringing so many foreigners)? And would the quality of the premiership plummet if we had less foreigners and more English players?

I reckon it would, just because of the system and how things are over here. In Spain, there's an emphasis on how well a games played, and there are A LOT of Spanish players in la liga.

Do I have a point here? or would there be no difference if there was less foreigners (and arguably a less exciting league) on how well England do as a nation (considering that we'd have more players given a chance at a high level, and more to pick from)

I don't really think the Brazilian leagues worth comparing too, once a player get's to a certain level over there its off to Europe for the next part of their career, its basically just a stepping stone.

Perhaps Serie A isn't what it was but probably until about 2002-2003 it was the undisputed best league for me, all the best players wanted to try their hand there but with corruption, match fixing and a struggling economy it's dropped behind the Bundesliga in the ratings. In saying that though the three clubs in the competition they have are probably going to qualify which is probably better than the EPL will do.

Of course it would benefit the England national team to lose some of the foreigners but at the end of the day if these guys were good enough in the first place they would be in the team and managers wouldn't need to look abroad.

I am a stoke fan and our team contains the following English players Starts/Subs:

Upson, Shawcross, Shotton, Wilkinson, Wilson, Etherington, Pennant, Woodgate, Couch, Jerome, Higginbotham.

British: Whelan, Walters.

Now Really our full team if played properly is Begovic, Wilkinson, Shawcross, Woodgate, Higginbotham, Pennant, Etherington, Whelan, Whitehead, Crouch, Walters. Now, there is only Begovic who is from outside the UK. The others are a mix of english an ROI. This is just an example because i do know that Arsenal for example have this: Szcezny, Mertesacker, Sagna, Santos, Vermalen, Walcott, Arteta, Gervinho, Van Persie, Song and Ramsey. ONE ENGLISH PLAYER until Wilshire comes back. NOT ENOUGH. Cole, Terry, Lampard and Sturridge at Stamford Bridge. I think there should be a new introduced law that means the football teams HAVE to have a starting XI of a minium of 6 ENGLISH HOME GROWN PLAYERS in the team. IE. Arsenal would then become Szcenzy, Gibbs, Mertsacker, Jenkinson, Sagna, Wilshire, Walcott, Frimpong, Arteta, Van Persie and Chamberline.

Chelsea would become Cech, Terry, Cole, Luiz, Ivanovic, Lampard, Mata, McCrachen, Sturridge, Drogba and errrrr i dont know?

d260005p wrote:I am a stoke fan and our team contains the following English players Starts/Subs:

Upson, Shawcross, Shotton, Wilkinson, Wilson, Etherington, Pennant, Woodgate, Couch, Jerome, Higginbotham.

British: Whelan, Walters.

Now Really our full team if played properly is Begovic, Wilkinson, Shawcross, Woodgate, Higginbotham, Pennant, Etherington, Whelan, Whitehead, Crouch, Walters. Now, there is only Begovic who is from outside the UK. The others are a mix of english an ROI. This is just an example because i do know that Arsenal for example have this: Szcezny, Mertesacker, Sagna, Santos, Vermalen, Walcott, Arteta, Gervinho, Van Persie, Song and Ramsey. ONE ENGLISH PLAYER until Wilshire comes back. NOT ENOUGH. Cole, Terry, Lampard and Sturridge at Stamford Bridge. I think there should be a new introduced law that means the football teams HAVE to have a starting XI of a minium of 6 ENGLISH HOME GROWN PLAYERS in the team. IE. Arsenal would then become Szcenzy, Gibbs, Mertsacker, Jenkinson, Sagna, Wilshire, Walcott, Frimpong, Arteta, Van Persie and Chamberline.

True, but you are likely to get relegated this season (on current form) and that would go someone to proving the OP right?

The age old arguement of foreign players in the PL ruining international football for England. This is England who have won 1 World Cup on their own turf and have done the square root of nothing since. England failed to qualify for the 1994 World Cup, and there was a minimal amount of foreigners in the Premier League then so the arguement doesn't hold any water. It's an excuse bandied about my media and fans as they are afraid to look in the mirror and face their own failings - that of coaching and attitude.

The issue has little or anything to do with foreign imports and will not be solved by limiting the amount of non-British players in each team. In fact, that is likely to have a huge detrimental effect on the Premier League. You only have to look at the CL in 93/94 to see how embarrassed Manchester United were against the likes of Barca, Galatasary and Honved (?) when non-English player restrictions were in place.

PS: Glenn Whelan is Irish, born and bred.

British: Whelan, Walters

liverbnz wrote:The age old arguement of foreign players in the PL ruining international football for England. This is England who have won 1 World Cup on their own turf and have done the square root of nothing since. England failed to qualify for the 1994 World Cup, and there was a minimal amount of foreigners in the Premier League then so the arguement doesn't hold any water. It's an excuse bandied about my media and fans as they are afraid to look in the mirror and face their own failings - that of coaching and attitude.

On the flip side, there's quite a lot of Scottish, Welsh and Irish players in the Premier League and those nations have been dire for the last.......... well since before I can remember really.

JPX wrote:

liverbnz wrote:The age old arguement of foreign players in the PL ruining international football for England. This is England who have won 1 World Cup on their own turf and have done the square root of nothing since. England failed to qualify for the 1994 World Cup, and there was a minimal amount of foreigners in the Premier League then so the arguement doesn't hold any water. It's an excuse bandied about my media and fans as they are afraid to look in the mirror and face their own failings - that of coaching and attitude.

On the flip side, there's quite a lot of Scottish, Welsh and Irish players in the Premier League and those nations have been dire for the last.......... well since before I can remember really.

Northern Ireland has a population of just short of a million. The ROI, in and around 3.5m. Their sum total is less than that of Greater London and yet they have produced one of the best players in the world ever (George Best) and another as good as anyone ever in his role (Roy Keane), arguabley. I can't really speak for Wales or Scotland but I think it's a very good achievement for any of these sides to qualify for major tournaments, although I wouldn't celebrate getting to the last 16 in a WC like Ireland did in '94.

We pay too much salary for only adequate players, so the youngsters coming from won't have to work on there game as much as the dutch, spanish, germans etc. Owners of clubs need to keep salaries down, thus more of the english players may end up playing in other leagues for once and learn under better coaches.

It may be the best to watch but the prem is nowhere near as good as the Spanish for technical ability. The Eng team's give the ball away far too much and it show's in Europe when they play the best team's they get embarrassed.

There's always an excuse with England. One excuse with Bobby Robson was that the banning of English teams after the Heysel disaster, affected the England team, now it's blame the foreigners, and before I forget, blame having a foreign manager.

People forget that during the 70's, England failed to qualify for 2 World Cups and there were less foreigners playing here than there is now and yes, we had English managers at the helm.

The end of the day, if English (British and Irish too) players were good enough, then PL teams wouldn't need to go to Africa or the continent to get players.

Lets not kid oursleves that George Best or Roy Keane or any English players are among the best of all time - there are 30+ Brazilians, a few Argies and plenty of Italians, Germans etc, who are far better than anything that has come from these shores - except David Beckham of course

JDandfries wrote:The end of the day, if English (British and Irish too) players were good enough, then PL teams wouldn't need to go to Africa or the continent to get players.

Lets not kid oursleves that George Best or Roy Keane or any English players are among the best of all time - there are 30+ Brazilians, a few Argies and plenty of Italians, Germans etc, who are far better than anything that has come from these shores - except David Beckham of course

Who are you to judge whether or not George Best or Roy Keane are among the best in the world? For a start, it's hard to take anything you say seriously and secondly, it's not an opinion of mine, but have many who have played the game against and with the players themselves. Probably not always the best place in the world to find the most thoughtful opinions, but a damn sight better than some.

liverbnz wrote:

JDandfries wrote:The end of the day, if English (British and Irish too) players were good enough, then PL teams wouldn't need to go to Africa or the continent to get players.

Lets not kid oursleves that George Best or Roy Keane or any English players are among the best of all time - there are 30+ Brazilians, a few Argies and plenty of Italians, Germans etc, who are far better than anything that has come from these shores - except David Beckham of course

Who are you to judge whether or not George Best or Roy Keane are among the best in the world? For a start, it's hard to take anything you say seriously and secondly, it's not an opinion of mine, but have many who have played the game against and with the players themselves. Probably not always the best place in the world to find the most thoughtful opinions, but a damn sight better than some.

Was that supposed to make sense, or did you just inanely bash away at the keyboard??

Incidentally, I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone else!

JDandfries wrote:The end of the day, if English (British and Irish too) players were good enough, then PL teams wouldn't need to go to Africa or the continent to get players.

Lets not kid oursleves that George Best or Roy Keane or any English players are among the best of all time - there are 30+ Brazilians, a few Argies and plenty of Italians, Germans etc, who are far better than anything that has come from these shores - except David Beckham of course

Africa and and continent are bigger places than the UK.
Its simple maths that they will produce more quality footballers than in the UK.

liverbnz wrote:

JDandfries wrote:The end of the day, if English (British and Irish too) players were good enough, then PL teams wouldn't need to go to Africa or the continent to get players.

Lets not kid oursleves that George Best or Roy Keane or any English players are among the best of all time - there are 30+ Brazilians, a few Argies and plenty of Italians, Germans etc, who are far better than anything that has come from these shores - except David Beckham of course

Who are you to judge whether or not George Best or Roy Keane are among the best in the world? For a start, it's hard to take anything you say seriously and secondly, it's not an opinion of mine, but have many who have played the game against and with the players themselves. Probably not always the best place in the world to find the most thoughtful opinions, but a damn sight better than some.

I'm a Man Utd fan so I appreciated Keane and love to hear stories about how good Best was when he played for United. However, I take all this stuff about them being the 'best in the world' with a pinch of salt same with Rooney and various others over the years, eg. Shearer. Ronaldo was the best in the world once and Real Madrid paid a world record fee for him. How come no one paid a world record fee for Best, Keane or Shearer? Did any team offer world record fees for them?

So as well as having the best top league, England often have the best players, but yet we have only won one World Cup.

Alan Shearer did actually go for a world record fee when Newcastle signed him.

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:Alan Shearer did actually go for a world record fee when Newcastle signed him.

I stand corrected, you are right. Odd though that the 'best in the world' Shearer signed for Newcastle.

I still by my previous post though.

I cant comment on Having Foreign players all through the league

Norwich have a majority of a british and Irish squad, with a total of 4 foreign players, one of which was born in Liverpool

Try picking an Arsenal XI of all British (Or Irish players) On saying that though, the Brits that do play for Arsenal tend to be quite big on the international scene.

Yes TSC that would be tough

I've always believed the reason we suck so hard is due to being TO English. I can't name any players in the current England squad who works outside of the Premier League.
Not only must they all hate each other no one has experienced how other country's play.

A Fine Folk. wrote:I've always believed the reason we suck so hard is due to being TO English. I can't name any players in the current England squad who works outside of the Premier League.
Not only must they all hate each other no one has experienced how other country's play.

The European and World Champions Spain get almost all their players from Barcelona and Real Madrid, and mainly players who have played almost exclusively in Spain.

Y I Man wrote:

JDandfries wrote:The end of the day, if English (British and Irish too) players were good enough, then PL teams wouldn't need to go to Africa or the continent to get players.

Lets not kid oursleves that George Best or Roy Keane or any English players are among the best of all time - there are 30+ Brazilians, a few Argies and plenty of Italians, Germans etc, who are far better than anything that has come from these shores - except David Beckham of course

Africa and and continent are bigger places than the UK.
Its simple maths that they will produce more quality footballers than in the UK.

That would be a valid arguement, but I wonder how many people actually play football in africa, as opposed to England?

That arguement also falls down when you look at how African teams do at World Cups etc

That arguement also falls down when you look at how African teams do at World Cups etc.

Yes better than US!!!!!!!

and we were both cheated by uraguayans!!!!!!!

Really, do they do better than US ( ia assume you mean England) do they regularly get to Q Finals and S Finals?

JDandfries wrote:

d260005p wrote:I am a stoke fan and our team contains the following English players Starts/Subs:

Upson, Shawcross, Shotton, Wilkinson, Wilson, Etherington, Pennant, Woodgate, Couch, Jerome, Higginbotham.

British: Whelan, Walters.

Now Really our full team if played properly is Begovic, Wilkinson, Shawcross, Woodgate, Higginbotham, Pennant, Etherington, Whelan, Whitehead, Crouch, Walters. Now, there is only Begovic who is from outside the UK. The others are a mix of english an ROI. This is just an example because i do know that Arsenal for example have this: Szcezny, Mertesacker, Sagna, Santos, Vermalen, Walcott, Arteta, Gervinho, Van Persie, Song and Ramsey. ONE ENGLISH PLAYER until Wilshire comes back. NOT ENOUGH. Cole, Terry, Lampard and Sturridge at Stamford Bridge. I think there should be a new introduced law that means the football teams HAVE to have a starting XI of a minium of 6 ENGLISH HOME GROWN PLAYERS in the team. IE. Arsenal would then become Szcenzy, Gibbs, Mertsacker, Jenkinson, Sagna, Wilshire, Walcott, Frimpong, Arteta, Van Persie and Chamberline.

True, but you are likely to get relegated this season (on current form) and that would go someone to proving the OP right?

Could not agree more mate. It does prove the point actually. Im off to watch us against Blackburn tomorrow.....a team we really should be beating. Even if we finish 17th id be happy. But the team i put out is the team from last year give or take, and they got to the FA Cup Final and finished mid table. So.....i dont know.,.....

JDandfries wrote:

liverbnz wrote:

JDandfries wrote:The end of the day, if English (British and Irish too) players were good enough, then PL teams wouldn't need to go to Africa or the continent to get players.

Lets not kid oursleves that George Best or Roy Keane or any English players are among the best of all time - there are 30+ Brazilians, a few Argies and plenty of Italians, Germans etc, who are far better than anything that has come from these shores - except David Beckham of course

Who are you to judge whether or not George Best or Roy Keane are among the best in the world? For a start, it's hard to take anything you say seriously and secondly, it's not an opinion of mine, but have many who have played the game against and with the players themselves. Probably not always the best place in the world to find the most thoughtful opinions, but a damn sight better than some.

Was that supposed to make sense, or did you just inanely bash away at the keyboard??


Incidentally, I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone else!

It made perfect sense and you know it.

Furthermore, you didn't express your opinion, you tried to put down another. If I think George Best is one of the best footballers of all time, I've the right to say it without anyone telling me not to 'kid' myself. Same goes for Roy Keane and his role.

I don't quite get this argument that although the EPL is very good by virtue of great foreign players this means the National team suffers.

When have the national team EVER been good, regardless of the status of the league or who makes up the nationality of the teams?

super_realist wrote:I don't quite get this argument that although the EPL is very good by virtue of great foreign players this means the National team suffers.

When have the national team EVER been good, regardless of the status of the league or who makes up the nationality of the teams?

Is exactly the point. It's a simple case of shifting the blame.

liverbnz wrote:

JDandfries wrote:

liverbnz wrote:

JDandfries wrote:The end of the day, if English (British and Irish too) players were good enough, then PL teams wouldn't need to go to Africa or the continent to get players.

Lets not kid oursleves that George Best or Roy Keane or any English players are among the best of all time - there are 30+ Brazilians, a few Argies and plenty of Italians, Germans etc, who are far better than anything that has come from these shores - except David Beckham of course

Who are you to judge whether or not George Best or Roy Keane are among the best in the world? For a start, it's hard to take anything you say seriously and secondly, it's not an opinion of mine, but have many who have played the game against and with the players themselves. Probably not always the best place in the world to find the most thoughtful opinions, but a damn sight better than some.

Was that supposed to make sense, or did you just inanely bash away at the keyboard??


Incidentally, I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone else!

It made perfect sense and you know it.

Furthermore, you didn't express your opinion, you tried to put down another. If I think George Best is one of the best footballers of all time, I've the right to say it without anyone telling me not to 'kid' myself. Same goes for Roy Keane and his role.

Sorry if I offended you, but please read through what you wrote, it makes little sense and sounds like you wrote it drunk.

Anyway all I was saying is, that there are loads of players better than Best or Keane, and to help you out, off the top of my head, I'll list a few for you, who are infinately better than those two you mention!

Maradona
Romario
Pele
Cruyff
Beckenbaur
Puskas
Zidane
Messi
Cantona
Garrincha
Di Stefano
Platini
Mattheus
Neeskens
Gullit
Van Basten
Ronaldo
Baresi
Eusebio
Muller
Tostao
Jarzhino
Socrates
Zico
Stiockov
Breitner
Rivalino
Maldini
Laudrup

Of all players from these shores, Daglish is probably the best, closly followed by Bobby Charlton, maybe Jimmy Johnstone or Duncan Edwards but none are top 50

It's all about opinions, and I'm certainly not going to accuse you of kidding yourself, but if you seach out any top 100/50/20 players in the world list George Best will be at or near the top of nearly all of them.

Looked at a couple, Best is around 16 - 25 in all of them - like you said it is about opinions, next seems to be dalglish at around 50 - no sign of Roy Keane though - again its all about opinions.

But seriously, I am not old enough to have seen Best play and have only seen that one clip they always show of him, the one against Sheff U i think, but have seen some of the above play live.

So out of the 30 or so I named, can you honestly say that Best was better than any of them?

Yes I can. Most of them. There has been few players since with the brilliance of George Best - and that's coming from a Liverpool and Republic of Ireland supporter. George Best and Roy Keane are both in the FIFA 100, and in Roy Keane's instance, only Garrincha could I comfortabley say was better than Roy Keane at what they did.

Pele rates George Best as the best player he's ever seen, and he's seen 1 or 2 good'uns, although some of his opinions can be odd.

MOST of them?

You havent seen George Best pla either!!! And you say that nothing I say can be taken seriously!

If the FIFA 100 is what we go by, then its a sham, since the likes of Michael Owen and David Beckham and yes, El Hadj Diouf!! are in it too.

top 100 of all time??? JOKE

The thing about Best was, he's a bit like the FHM Top Bird of the Year, simply because he's famous or high profile at the time, people think he was better than he was. There's a certain romantacism about Best, due probably to looks, charisma and a colourful lifestyle which I think tend to colour how good he actually was.

He was good, but I think Denis Law was a better player than Best.

JDandfries wrote:MOST of them?

You havent seen George Best pla either!!! And you say that nothing I say can be taken seriously!

If the FIFA 100 is what we go by, then its a sham, since the likes of Michael Owen and David Beckham and yes, El Hadj Diouf!! are in it too.

top 100 of all time??? JOKE

When you learn to debate and respect others opinions come back to me. I've seen plenty of George Best, enough to make an informed opinion.

liverbnz wrote:

JDandfries wrote:MOST of them?

You havent seen George Best pla either!!! And you say that nothing I say can be taken seriously!

If the FIFA 100 is what we go by, then its a sham, since the likes of Michael Owen and David Beckham and yes, El Hadj Diouf!! are in it too.

top 100 of all time??? JOKE

When you learn to debate and respect others opinions come back to me. I've seen plenty of George Best, enough to make an informed opinion.

You are 27 years old, it is impossible for you to have seen George Best play!

Yep impossible, what with modern technology and all that. I've probably seen him, y'know in the same way in which you have obviously seen all those players you have listed? You have seen them haven't you?

What we do know from this discussion is that you have not seen anything of George Best bar this one clip you mention, so how you can make any sort of comment one way or the other is beyond me. So perhaps you comment on hearsay?

Super_Realist - of course there is a lot of romanticism about George Best, but that shouldn't take away from his ability to do things with a football that very few others could at his time. It's foolish to compare accross eras, but for his time Best is definitely up there, quite often making players around him looking 10* better than they were. Some of them will even atest to that.

I am sure you realised my jibe at George Best, was simply because alot of people big him up, but have only seen him on an isolated clip of him.

Out of the players I listed, I have seen the following live
Maradona
Romario
Zidane
Messi
Cantona
Platini
Mattheus
Gullit
Van Basten
Ronaldo
Baresi
Zico
Stiockov
Maldini
Laudrup

So a fair few yes!

So I was supposed to take that comment as a jibe? Despite the serious context of the rest of the post?

Have a nice weekend.

You too, enjoy watching your George Best video!

hey super_realist enjoying the SPL this season?

There are enough TV clips and opinions from other players to show that Best was a world class footballer. His biggest crime is that he didn't play in the World Cup. I think if a poll was taken among all players and coaches that saw him play, he would be voted the best from the British Isles. In my own opinion only Maradona, Pele, Cruyff and Zidane (possibly Messi when his career is over) would be ahead of him.

jay-z wrote:hey super_realist enjoying the SPL this season?

I never enjoy watching Europe's 23rd best league, in fact if I was Scotland manager, I wouldn't pick a single player who played there.

Jeez is it that far down now, to be honest the results in Europe have been horrific since 2007. From 7th to 23rd in 4 years..

I'd have Best in and around that list of players you have there. Not as good as the top five or ten maybe, but to say that they are all infinitely better than Best seems a bit over the top. Keane was an excellent player, not one of the greatest of all-time, but probably one of the best centre-mids around at the time. He was certainly one of the best at his job.

super_realist wrote:

jay-z wrote:hey super_realist enjoying the SPL this season?

I never enjoy watching Europe's 23rd best league, in fact if I was Scotland manager, I wouldn't pick a single player who played there.

come on now, it's comparable to the la liga isn't it? 2 great teams with a huge following internationally battling it out for a league!

I wouldn't say that the OF are followed hugely overseas.

Just a lot of silly people with dubious Irish/Scottish heritage looking for a tenuous connection to over-rated, rubbish football teams.