Bath

Seriously worried, can't fathom what's going on. There just doesn't seem to be any direction or intensity in any of the games. Where do the problems lie?
Against Montpellier, the pace and intensity was good in the 1st half. Why can we not replicate that? When Hooper was named captain, I questioned the appointment, as I personally do not think he is in the top 2 choice of 2nd row we have at the club. It is up to him to ensure that training is high tempo and high intensity, and this is then naturally carried through to the weekend... You often hear of niggles in training in the top clubs, but that is because they are putting it all in.
As for the direction, I can't work out what the game plan is. We are sorely lacking in ball carriers, not enough pack members are carrying over the gain line (Caldwell against Montpellier was a good example of good carrying creating spaces out wide). We seem to be flinging the ball wide too quickly. Is this were a lack of head coach (Davis/Haag are decent in their chosen areas, but not as HC) is causing us problems.

Whatever the reasons, you look at some of the quality in the line up against Worcester (who probably only bettered us on paper on the wings), and performances are very poor. Geech and co need to have a serious word with the squad, would expect some enforced dropping of players from squads as a minimum.

That Worcester game just showed how important a good hooker is to a team. The set piece was unsurprisingly a total shambles which is what you'd expect with no recognised number 2 on the pitch.

But that is a short-term problem which the management can do little about. Of more concern is that they have no good ball carrying backrows and Donald looked really poor. Ok he's only been there a while and you need to give him time but geez he had a shocker.

Sadly Donald has always had that side to his game but I think we all expected he'd be over it now that he's not an international.

Bath have had these issues for a while now. The whole stratagy seems to be chuck the ball to the backs and hope for the best.

But when you look at the likes of Caldwell, Atwood, Louw, Taylor, Moody, you'd expect to get some forward momentum wouldn't you??? I guess I'm looking forward to Fearns getting back. Louw/Fearns/Mercer would be a great combo in the back row. Sadly, I don't think Sam Vesty will last much longer at 12 either for the same reasons, a decent 10, but at 12 he just shuffles the ball (and the tacklers along with it) further down the line.

It is certainly worrying, there is clearly a issue with some of the coaching I think, the looking clueless has been over far too many games to just be a case of a bad day at the office.

We do now have someone (SIM) who was brought in as a Director of Rugby now as head coach,which is not how I envisaged it. I really like Brad Davis and think he is a good defence coach but our attack has been so poor this season I do wonder if it was asking too much to expect him to do both.


However, on the plus side the premiership race for the playoff places is wide open, with the exception of the top 2. Only a few points seperate 3rd with 11th so the season is hardly a write off.

But.. somehow the pack need to get a lot meaner, really start dominating other teams to enable quick ball for the backs. A team with Louw, Moody, Fearns and Attwodd should in theory be able to do that, so hopefully Geech will be having some serious words to get things back on track...

I won't make any jocular comments...

You are really missing Fearns as the ball carrying forward. You're front 5 still isn't up to the level needed. The locks are better, but Caldwell is just a walking penalty machine - although he was very unlucky for that offside penalty. I do feel you need to spend your money on geting some decent props on board.

Considering Bath used to be famed for an off-loading game, there was no cohesion between backs and forwards and regadless of the hooker debacle there just wasn't any spark to your play. Worcester are a solid, but predictable team. They have a good maul and use Rasmussen for crash balls to make space time and time again. Whilst you were missing a few players in the backs there is no creativity in the team and your centres just seem to be crash ball merchants like Rasmussen. Vesty is a good club player, but he is a poor version of Barkley and you do need to get him back fully fit as soon as possible.

Erm....start worrying when you play like us!!!

I don't think Bath can continue to play that backrow combo if they want to improve. All 3 are good defensively but offered absolutely no threat with ball in hand and personally I think Taylor is more suited to the second row than number 8. In the backs it will be interesting to see if Donald / Barkley can get things moving, maybe with Banahan at 13 to try and make some holes they may offer more of a threat. After all the recruiting over the last 12 months I feel they are still short at least 3 positions, couple of top class props and a decent right winger (and maybe another full back to put some pressure on Abendanon). Even then the squad could still probably do with a few more players to strengthen it.

I do think Donald will come good once he gets used to the Prem. It's unrealistic to expect him to come in and make the game winning play with just about his first touch

GeordieFalcon wrote:Erm....start worrying when you play like us!!!

To be honest I would be more concerned if I was a Bath fan. My guess is that your wage bill is about half of Bath's, with about the whole coaching set up at the Falcons just about the same as SIM's salary.

B91212 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Erm....start worrying when you play like us!!!

To be honest I would be more concerned if I was a Bath fan. My guess is that your wage bill is about half of Bath's, with about the whole coaching set up at the Falcons just about the same as SIM's salary.

Money isn't a issue, don't worry. Frustrating season so far, but so have the last two and we won 9/10 at the end of last season and the table is much closer this year. I was on the edge on Friday night, but trying to be more positive now!

I think it's pretty obvious TBH, if you haven't got a good platform you're really going to struggle, there aren't many 10's about that will play well with the scrum going backwards and the lineout going to pieces.

The key signings recently have all been loosies, locks and midfield, but if there's nothing solid to play behind, it doesn't matter how many signings you make.

Bath need a monster front row to balance out what they've got behind it, a lock will only be as good in the scrum as his prop, if the prop isn't performing it doesn't matter how big or good the lock is, he'll be going sideways or backwards.

It has been a long time since Bath were a side that seriously threatened to win the premiership. A couple of late winning runs to either make the playoffs or qualify for Europe have perhaps given false hope.

Front Row - Looks weak, even without injuries. Some way below the sum of it's parts.
Second Row - Attwood was signed to provide grunt - but most combinations have looked underpowered.
Back Row - looks promising on paper, but without Fearns also looks a bit old.

All in all the pack just looks lethargic and underpowered. This has been the case for a couple of years and frankly you would have expected more from the individuals available. Has forwards coaching been an issue?

Without a decent pack any side will struggle to turn in consistent winning performances.

I will let someone else discuss the backs - but you do not look at them and expect a fiest of attacking skills.

Not disagreeing with you LT, but a first choice backline of:

Claassens
Donald
Biggs
Barkley
Banahan
Carraro/Woodburn
Abendanon

Thats a pretty attacking lineup, with the possibility of Hipkiss at 13 and Banners moving to the wing.

People need to give Donald sometime. Remember he had no preseason with the team and is still taking time to get to know the players in the side. This does take time.

TBH Bathite - that line-up does not fill me with fear.

Claassens nowadays is solid but seems to lack zip to passing or running and kicks a lot.
Stephen Donald - time will tell but for now I seen nothing to change my original view that he was a poor signing.
Biggs quick, has scored tries against us but in general not a top line winger.
Barkley - follows a sublime game with a series of iffy ones.
Banahan - great player at club level, perhaps easier to nullify when he is in the centre?
Carraro has looked poor every time I see him.
Abendanon - fantastic player to watch as a neutral. Some amazing skill followed by appalling errors.

I am being harsh here, but when you compare that back line to Scarlets/Leinster/Clermont in Europe it falls a long way short. Compare it to the exciting strike runners available to Quins and Gloucester and again it falls a long way short.

Bathite, I am not deliberately attempting to wind you up but I have to agree with LT, that backline is not a great attacking force. The one person who could add the zip is Eastmond, but clearly we don't know what he is going to be like in Union yet

GEECH OUT

GEECH OUT

GEECH OUT

HAAG OUT

HAAG OUT

HAAG OUT

DAVIS OUT

DAVIS OUT

DAVIS OUT

Oh come on HERSH, it's not that bad. At least you're ahead of Glaws in the league & managed to beat us at last...

Hersh who are Haag and Davis?

You can't expect to throw players together and hope they magically perform well.

There has to be a gameplan and strategy.

Hi HKC, the fat lady could do a better job than these numpties and if it was down to me over half of the playing squad would be looking for new teams in the summer.

Beshocked they are the 1st team forwards and defence/skills coaches

There is no game plan or strategy

HERSH, how many of your team are out of contract this summer? As it does look like the recruitment drive hasn't been particularly successful. Then again, I always said Geech was our saboteur!

It does strike me that Bath can't decide how to play. Classens and the
forwards seem to have adopted a more tactical kicking game where they look to play territory with plenty of forwards carrying around the fringes. The backs on the other hand still seem to want to play the Bath run it from everywhere game. The backs run all the kicks back and run from deep with their backs moves trying to play fast and add tempo whilst the forwards try to slow it down. In the midst of it all Donald looks lost and will try to play one way and then the other whilst being insistent on always throwing passes flat in a rather odd fashion which his team mates struggle to catch.

There is clearly some on field leadership issues and a genuine lack of understanding of what the game plan is and how to implement it.

HongKongCherry wrote:HERSH, how many of your team are out of contract this summer? As it does look like the recruitment drive hasn't been particularly successful. Then again, I always said Geech was our saboteur!

God knows HKC but I'd sack them whether their contract is up or not, as half are pretending to be Pro rugby players when clearly they are not.

Hersh the question is who do you replace them with?

How deep are your multi millionaire's pockets? How patient is he?

If you don't qualify for the HC next season....

Who would you cut Hersh?

beshocked wrote:

If you don't qualify for the HC next season....

don't dangle the dream beshocked!

Reading all this thread, seems to be a lot of doom and gloom among Bath fans.

Haven't seen them play, but just wondering as a Leinster fan what you think your prospects are for the HC double-header v Leinster on Dec 10 and 17.

brennomac wrote:Reading all this thread, seems to be a lot of doom and gloom among Bath fans.

Haven't seen them play, but just wondering as a Leinster fan what you think your prospects are for the HC double-header v Leinster on Dec 10 and 17.

A double thumping. Although without O'Driscoll the Leinster centres are pants, there's too much quality around the filed. Expect it to be reasonably close at the rec (within 10), but Leinster should dominate in Dublin.

Far too much doom and gloom, got to keep the faith, its a long old season, we always start badly and with the table as it is, it only takes 2 wins to jump 6 places!

Haven't seen them play, but just wondering as a Leinster fan what you think your prospects are for the HC double-header v Leinster on Dec 10 and 17..

Unless Bath unearth some new talent or have a couple of players uncover some old form then expect Leinster to dominate the scrum and the lineout. Bath look disjointed in the loose so Sexton will be given opportunities to keep the score board ticking over as the Leinster forwards will be able to attack the breakdown. Having said that loose kicks and slack defending is not advised against a team with plenty of ball carriers who will not make a couple of yards more like ten or so yards given a gap.

Well I hope ye don't get it together for the double header against Leinster. I personally don't think Donald is a good fit for the way Bath like to play. He's just a big lad with a good boot. Should have signed carter instead.

bathmad wrote:Although without O'Driscoll the Leinster centres are pants.

BOD's replacement at 13, Eoin O'Malley is opening defences and scoring tries. D'arcy is past it though.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Well I hope ye don't get it together for the double header against Leinster. I personally don't think Donald is a good fit for the way Bath like to play. He's just a big lad with a good boot. Should have signed carter instead.

We did try....blame the salary cap!

I still think that Shane Geraghty would have been a potentially great (and cheap) signing for Bath. He was quick, elusive with great hands and a decentish boot (that could be worked on). More importantly he liked to play in a similar attacking style to Bath. With him on the down for his time at Saints he could have been signed up on the cheap (Donald will not be cheap) and could have slotted in sooner and probabley more efficiently.

BOD's replacement at 13, Eoin O'Malley is opening defences and scoring tries. D'arcy is past it though

They not ditched D'Arcy for McFadden yet?

brennomac wrote:Reading all this thread, seems to be a lot of doom and gloom among Bath fans.

Haven't seen them play, but just wondering as a Leinster fan what you think your prospects are for the HC double-header v Leinster on Dec 10 and 17.

Well, Bath'll stuff Leinster on the 10th..... but when they wake up on the 11th and have to play for real it'll be a different prospect, I began to think the win against Montpelier could have been a turning point, but to follow that with an inept and disorganised performance at Sixways was a bitter blow.

I doubt Bath will have the players available to cause Leinster any problems, and whilst the home game may be close for a while the result is almost inevitable I think, Leinster by 7-12 points. The away game is something I really don't want to think about at the moment, it could be a landslide....

formerly known as Sam wrote:They not ditched D'Arcy for McFadden yet?

No, unfortunately. In fact We've been trying McFadden at 13 outside D'arcy. But O'Malley has done so well in every game he's played, I think he might have won the 13 jersey in BOD's absence. He's a natural 13 and McFadden is a 12. I believe we'll keep the experienced D'arcy at 12 with one of McFadden or O'Malley outside. I don't agree with it but that seems to be Schmidt's thinking at the moment. I personally think 12. McFadden 13. O'Malley would be very dangerous in attack. Loads of pace, but a little lightweight. But we don't have any Roberts/Nonu types.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I still think that Shane Geraghty would have been a potentially great (and cheap) signing for Bath. He was quick, elusive with great hands and a decentish boot (that could be worked on). More importantly he liked to play in a similar attacking style to Bath. With him on the down for his time at Saints he could have been signed up on the cheap (Donald will not be cheap) and could have slotted in sooner and probabley more efficiently.

BOD's replacement at 13, Eoin O'Malley is opening defences and scoring tries. D'arcy is past it though

They not ditched D'Arcy for McFadden yet?

Geraghty.....yes, just what we needed was a completely unpredictable player, who dislikes tackling! Perfect for playing behind a weak pack!

Bath still havent achieved a rythym to their game. Vesty at 10 didnt get quick ball or establish a link with Williams at the start of the season and then moved to centre where he has never threatened defences.
He has been unlucky and now we have Donald who is still trying to establish his combinations with 9 & 12.

We have some very young props with Catt, Beech Moss and Lilley, who probably need another season before they can start to make an impression. At tighthead with Wilson on international duty, we start to look light with just Perenise and Bell.

We have so many backrow players with Moody, Mercer, Fearns, Louw, Taylor, Skirving, Beattie and Ovens but the right combination is proving elusive and none providing a fierce ball carrier role - Attwood is probably the player but he is at lock and rotated with Hooper and Caldwell

Fearns, Louw and Mercer or Ovens is the future Bath backrow but probably light on experience when taking on current international backrows like Leinsters - which is where the game is won and lost.

Geraghty.....yes, just what we needed was a completely unpredictable player, who dislikes tackling! Perfect for playing behind a weak pack!.

and yet you already employ Olly Barkley who has all those weaknesses to a greater extent without Geraghty's turn of pace or vision.

Haven't watched much rugby over the last 4 years then. Dear oh dear

I've watched plenty including Mr Barkley and Mr Geraghty at Welford Rd in the flesh. The two Bath games I saw live included Barkley failing to make the gainline and failing to stop our centres and Geraghty was brought on late in a bid of desperation by the Saints management and looked inventive.

Have to agree with Sam. I am not sure why Bath fans rate Barkley so highly. He's a pretty overrated player. Doesn't help he's injured most of the time.

Quite possibly Barkley is a flat track bully? Good against the weaker sides.....

Flat track bully, that's a good way of putting it, hadn't thought about it like that, you may well be right. He has been really unlucky with injuries, they aren't like little groin, thigh strains, it's been two broken legs!

I try not to over rate Bath players too much, I'm pretty subjective and not really as hardcore as other fans, eg, I don't mind Glos, mate used to play for them. Barkley is a weird one, I hate the bloke as a person, but find myself being impressed with him as a player. Trust me, if anyone would like to slag off his playing style, it would be me! Maybe I am still rating him from his form of 2 years ago. When him and Butch were on song, it was a joy to watch, back then, we really were playing the best rugby in the prem, not the most effective, but certainly best to watch. Strange to think that we were 8 seconds from beating Toulouse away from home in the HC!

Bathite every fan rates their players higher. I do it all the time myself.

It's hard to gauge Barkley because he is injured so much and because I haven't seen Barkley play my team for a long time.

A player also isn't necessarily the same after injury.Also I wonder whether Barkley can front up against the best sides.

I think it's especially easy for our backs to look rubbish as our front 5 is so poor. You have to be really special to get good attacking ball without a solid set piece platform and/or forwards hitting/breaking the gain line.

I don't think we have any players that front up, that's the root of the problem mate! Some of the youngsters are starting to show up 'more talented and experienced' senior players. I love that they have that arrogance and raw instinct, almost play without fear. Just so disappointing that it looks like another 'building' year for us.

Bathite wrote:
I'm pretty subjective and not really as hardcore as other fans, eg, I don't mind Glos.

Well you do have to bow to your superiors! ...

But I do have to agree with you about Barkley, even after seeing a truly dreadful season from him at Glaws I do actually rate him. Bath always play better when he is in the side and completely agree that the partnership with James worked extremely well at times. The current Bath side just don't have the distrubiton skills in the backs, but Barkley is the one player who can add a bit of fizz to the otherwise rather turgid backline.

The problem I have with Barkley is his complete lack of consistency. He plays one match a month where he looks like the answer to Englands No12 shirt - then goes missing for the rest of the month.