Ulster in Crises ?
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: Club Rugby
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Ulster in Crises ?
To answer my own question. Not yet, quite, but very very close.
A defeat in any of the next three matches would make it one.
A lose to Scarlets and it would be 6 out of 7 in the Pro 12 and down to 9th or 10th - probably below Connacht
A lose to Aironi and HC and Amlin over and losing to the worst team in the competition.
There are obviously serious coaching issues. Doak is pants as a backs coach but he is popular and part of the cosy old boy network.
Muller is a fine captain and a good leader - he has shown no signs of being a forwards coach
Bell as defensive coach - ditto re old boy network
Longwell - in charge of the academy with zero coaching skills
No front row coach
McGlock at the top is an excellent technical coach but with such a poor team is doomed
The whole set up is too cosy - bullits up backsides is required. The above cant/wont deliver that.
Also the blazer are showing signs of incompetance.
No plans to change the above team for next year at the moment and also an assumption that a few high profile signings are a cure all - there not.
I am not talking Humph or Logan here but the committee that appointed them. The maleovant Voldermort aka Cedric Wilson still pulls strings. The man is an odious toad who has been playing local politics to the detriment of Ulster rugby for years. There are signs that Humph and Logan are coming into conflict with the blazers as to the way forward.
On to the players - we have a handful of big names. Payne, Muller, Afoa, Ferris, Best, Trimble and Pienaer who are able to stand up and be counted. The rest follow. Without those 7 we are spineless. Too many who dont take the responsibility they should given their experience e.g Court, Tuohy, Wallace, Danielli, Humphreys, Wannenberg, Diack.
I'll absolve Cave, Henry and Marshall who are giving their all in very trying circumstances.
This failure to stand up and be counted is detremental to the development of our younger players who will go backwards if not handled properly.
I was struck by the freedom and enjoyment I say in NOC and TJ's performance for Connacht recently. They were not highly strung nervous wrecks as they were most times at Ulster. I wonder why ?
Another ex player who has shown what can be done is Roger Wilson. In the last 2 Saints games I have seen him play he has been magnificant. Outside of the big three (literally) - Ferris, SOB and Heaslip he is Irelands best back row forward (in fact his performances have been better than Heaslip and in a totally, superior, league to Leamy). Henry could be that good if handled properly.
It seems to me that Ulster do not put players out of their comfort zone and as a result when the pressures on they crack. Its too easy at Ulster. We survice because we have a handful of players who have gone to the next level because of their own drive and because of their experiences elsewhere.
Very depressing
I needed to get that off my chest.
A defeat in any of the next three matches would make it one.
A lose to Scarlets and it would be 6 out of 7 in the Pro 12 and down to 9th or 10th - probably below Connacht
A lose to Aironi and HC and Amlin over and losing to the worst team in the competition.
There are obviously serious coaching issues. Doak is pants as a backs coach but he is popular and part of the cosy old boy network.
Muller is a fine captain and a good leader - he has shown no signs of being a forwards coach
Bell as defensive coach - ditto re old boy network
Longwell - in charge of the academy with zero coaching skills
No front row coach
McGlock at the top is an excellent technical coach but with such a poor team is doomed
The whole set up is too cosy - bullits up backsides is required. The above cant/wont deliver that.
Also the blazer are showing signs of incompetance.
No plans to change the above team for next year at the moment and also an assumption that a few high profile signings are a cure all - there not.
I am not talking Humph or Logan here but the committee that appointed them. The maleovant Voldermort aka Cedric Wilson still pulls strings. The man is an odious toad who has been playing local politics to the detriment of Ulster rugby for years. There are signs that Humph and Logan are coming into conflict with the blazers as to the way forward.
On to the players - we have a handful of big names. Payne, Muller, Afoa, Ferris, Best, Trimble and Pienaer who are able to stand up and be counted. The rest follow. Without those 7 we are spineless. Too many who dont take the responsibility they should given their experience e.g Court, Tuohy, Wallace, Danielli, Humphreys, Wannenberg, Diack.
I'll absolve Cave, Henry and Marshall who are giving their all in very trying circumstances.
This failure to stand up and be counted is detremental to the development of our younger players who will go backwards if not handled properly.
I was struck by the freedom and enjoyment I say in NOC and TJ's performance for Connacht recently. They were not highly strung nervous wrecks as they were most times at Ulster. I wonder why ?
Another ex player who has shown what can be done is Roger Wilson. In the last 2 Saints games I have seen him play he has been magnificant. Outside of the big three (literally) - Ferris, SOB and Heaslip he is Irelands best back row forward (in fact his performances have been better than Heaslip and in a totally, superior, league to Leamy). Henry could be that good if handled properly.
It seems to me that Ulster do not put players out of their comfort zone and as a result when the pressures on they crack. Its too easy at Ulster. We survice because we have a handful of players who have gone to the next level because of their own drive and because of their experiences elsewhere.
Very depressing
I needed to get that off my chest.
geoff998rugby- Posts : 5249
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Why did Ulster bring in Terblanche when it looks like a backrow signing would have been the more practical. Yes Payne is injured but you have oodles of back 3.
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Geoff I've answered this in the other thread to some extent.
I don't think things are that bad yet. We've had a few injuries to key players and a few other players in key positions have not performed.
Some of the peformances have been very poor but its more of a lack of consistancy than a downward spiral at this stage so on that basis we can turn things around.
The players are there but there is a lack of cohesion and direction on the pitch and the coaches must shoulder the blame for this as well as Muller and IHumph.
It is worrying to hear about the behind the scenes problems but I don't think this is a crisis just yet. We need to dig in an try and get a few results now to get our season back on track and we can evaluate our coaching set up in the off season but now is not the time to panic.
SUFTUM!
I don't think things are that bad yet. We've had a few injuries to key players and a few other players in key positions have not performed.
Some of the peformances have been very poor but its more of a lack of consistancy than a downward spiral at this stage so on that basis we can turn things around.
The players are there but there is a lack of cohesion and direction on the pitch and the coaches must shoulder the blame for this as well as Muller and IHumph.
It is worrying to hear about the behind the scenes problems but I don't think this is a crisis just yet. We need to dig in an try and get a few results now to get our season back on track and we can evaluate our coaching set up in the off season but now is not the time to panic.
SUFTUM!
rodders- Moderator
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
red_stag wrote:Why did Ulster bring in Terblanche when it looks like a backrow signing would have been the more practical. Yes Payne is injured but you have oodles of back 3.
Because not one of them is good enough, now, to play 15.
Lots of wing talent though.
geoff998rugby- Posts : 5249
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Rodders as I said it is. not quite, a crises yet but a defeat in any of the next 3 games and it will be.
Also as you can see this run of bad form is highlighting some more seriously cracks which are very worrying.
You mention loss of form - trouble is some players will never be quite good enough if we are serious in going to the next level - iHumph at 10 and D'Arcy at 15 come to mind.
Also as you can see this run of bad form is highlighting some more seriously cracks which are very worrying.
You mention loss of form - trouble is some players will never be quite good enough if we are serious in going to the next level - iHumph at 10 and D'Arcy at 15 come to mind.
geoff998rugby- Posts : 5249
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
I agree Geoff that any more defeats in our next 3 and we are looking down the barrell. We are not quite there yet.
It seem there are a number of small things wrong rather than big things which is why I feel we can turn things around quickly.
IHumph is struggling for the consistancy he had last year but other players have not stepped up to the plate either.
The midfield is not funtioning and that has been the case, regardless of who has played 12 or 13. The depth is wrong, the running angles are wrong and the handling and descision making have been attrocious.
The outsides backs have not been getting any decent service and when they have all too often they've made horlicks of things, Danielli in particular has been awful.
Friday night was the 1st indication of moral dropping with Diack, Faloon, Wannenburg and the pack in general failing to put in an acceptable effort at the breakdown. All too often we were too slow to get there and when we were our poor body angles allowed Glasgow to ruck us off the ball and disrupt Marshall.
This is not acceptable but these things can all be turned around quickly. We have quality players but they need to knuckle down and start doing the basics well and to panic and overcomplicate things.
I'm hopeful that we can salvage this seoson but clearly there are fundimental things wrong that buying in more players won't fix.
It seem there are a number of small things wrong rather than big things which is why I feel we can turn things around quickly.
IHumph is struggling for the consistancy he had last year but other players have not stepped up to the plate either.
The midfield is not funtioning and that has been the case, regardless of who has played 12 or 13. The depth is wrong, the running angles are wrong and the handling and descision making have been attrocious.
The outsides backs have not been getting any decent service and when they have all too often they've made horlicks of things, Danielli in particular has been awful.
Friday night was the 1st indication of moral dropping with Diack, Faloon, Wannenburg and the pack in general failing to put in an acceptable effort at the breakdown. All too often we were too slow to get there and when we were our poor body angles allowed Glasgow to ruck us off the ball and disrupt Marshall.
This is not acceptable but these things can all be turned around quickly. We have quality players but they need to knuckle down and start doing the basics well and to panic and overcomplicate things.
I'm hopeful that we can salvage this seoson but clearly there are fundimental things wrong that buying in more players won't fix.
rodders- Moderator
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Agree with that but I do have some bigger worries that Ulster is just too comfortable a place to be.
Some of the players I have mentioned dont have the mental hardness to step up a level.
I suppose, for me, they are more serious problems that go way beyond a lose of form. Logan/Humphreys have changed a lot for the good but I think we are still a long way from where we want to be.
Bottom line is I do not see this is a temporary lose of form but symptom of bigger issues. Last years run of fortunate last minute wins papered over the cracks - for me last season was the aberation not this.
Some of the players I have mentioned dont have the mental hardness to step up a level.
I suppose, for me, they are more serious problems that go way beyond a lose of form. Logan/Humphreys have changed a lot for the good but I think we are still a long way from where we want to be.
Bottom line is I do not see this is a temporary lose of form but symptom of bigger issues. Last years run of fortunate last minute wins papered over the cracks - for me last season was the aberation not this.
geoff998rugby- Posts : 5249
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
geoff998rugby wrote:
Bottom line is I do not see this is a temporary lose of form but symptom of bigger issues. Last years run of fortunate last minute wins papered over the cracks - for me last season was the aberation not this.
Coming from you Geoff that is worrying. To be honest that had crossed my mind a few times,even when we were winning, but I don't want to think along those lines.
We've had these false dawns before, like in 2006. I'm still hopeful we can turn things around but the onfield performances are worrying and if like you say there are problems behind the scenes too then that is not good.
rodders- Moderator
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
It is luanacy to operate without a scrum coach. Munster only appointed one last year and I really am seeing the signs now.
Im a big fan of the old boy network but you need to be able to recognise when it isnt working.
Humphreys appears to be doing a good job. . . . .or is it just that he is popular.
Im a big fan of the old boy network but you need to be able to recognise when it isnt working.
Humphreys appears to be doing a good job. . . . .or is it just that he is popular.
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Stag our scrum has been one of the positives this season and bar friday our lineout has gone well too. Both have improved markedly from last year.
Our back play and general attacking play has been very poor though so clearly there are issues with the coaching.
Half back has been a big problem, with Pienaar out and IHumph struggling for consistancy.
Our back play and general attacking play has been very poor though so clearly there are issues with the coaching.
Half back has been a big problem, with Pienaar out and IHumph struggling for consistancy.
rodders- Moderator
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Your scrum has improved?
It looked to me that your scrum was the biggest factor in your defeat v Tigers and last season it looked very solid to me.
Injury and absense hasn't helped things for you either though.
It looked to me that your scrum was the biggest factor in your defeat v Tigers and last season it looked very solid to me.
Injury and absense hasn't helped things for you either though.
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
I think I know what you mean, Staggy - Ulster performed perhaps above expectations last season, so expectations were raised for this, and they're not quite matching those, despite impressive scalps like ASM Clermont?red_stag wrote:Second season sydrome.
AsLongAsBut100ofUs- Posts : 14129
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
No I don't agree stag, in fact I think our tight 5 shaded things against the Tigers.
It was the failure to manufacture and utilise space and a few individual errors at key times that cost us against the tigers.
This year the scrum is much stronger.
The back play has got worse though.
It was the failure to manufacture and utilise space and a few individual errors at key times that cost us against the tigers.
This year the scrum is much stronger.
The back play has got worse though.
rodders- Moderator
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Trouble is the scrum has been quite descent because of the work Reggie Corrigan and BJ Botha put in as scrum coaches. Players like Court, Fitzpatrick and McAllister have been very public about how much these guys imporved their technique.
People like Macklin and Balck and the even younger guys now have no one to turn to. Without good coaching they will not improved as they should.
I agree a scrum coach is a must and Matt Sexton was prepared to do it as well but we turned him down - madness
None, and I repeat, none of our support coaching team is up to the standard required - Muller, Doak, Bell and Longwell. This cant continue
People like Macklin and Balck and the even younger guys now have no one to turn to. Without good coaching they will not improved as they should.
I agree a scrum coach is a must and Matt Sexton was prepared to do it as well but we turned him down - madness
None, and I repeat, none of our support coaching team is up to the standard required - Muller, Doak, Bell and Longwell. This cant continue
geoff998rugby- Posts : 5249
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
surely we have to accept that our key players have an impact by themselves but clearly an extra impact on the mentality of the players around them. Without Afoa, pienaer, wallace, ferris, rory, payne, the other players maybe just stop feeling like they are a'quality' side. They maybe lack confidence, which leads to either forcing things or panicing.
if you are a forward and you see your teammate ferris charge the ball and make 15 yards there is no doubt this spurs you on.
I accept that Geoff, you know a lot more about the rugby set up than I. But i can't comprehend how the stuff they learned and put into practice last year is no longer being used/working. And how can that be a coaches influence. I'm speaking particularly about the backs here.
My genuine question is, how can coaching be blamed for a backline penetrating last season and forgetting how to this season?
Or are other teams reading us better and we are predictable? Do we need coaches to continue with more newer fresher ideas? I just don't understand how you forget how to do the things you did.
if you are a forward and you see your teammate ferris charge the ball and make 15 yards there is no doubt this spurs you on.
I accept that Geoff, you know a lot more about the rugby set up than I. But i can't comprehend how the stuff they learned and put into practice last year is no longer being used/working. And how can that be a coaches influence. I'm speaking particularly about the backs here.
My genuine question is, how can coaching be blamed for a backline penetrating last season and forgetting how to this season?
Or are other teams reading us better and we are predictable? Do we need coaches to continue with more newer fresher ideas? I just don't understand how you forget how to do the things you did.
clivemcl- Posts : 4681
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Clive I don't think our backplay was great last season either but it seems to have gotten worse and not better.
Part of that is down to form of key players and injuries but the coaches have to take the blame too.
Part of that is down to form of key players and injuries but the coaches have to take the blame too.
rodders- Moderator
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
clivemcl wrote: I accept that Geoff, you know a lot more about the rugby set up than I. But i can't comprehend how the stuff they learned and put into practice last year is no longer being used/working. And how can that be a coaches influence. I'm speaking particularly about the backs here.
My genuine question is, how can coaching be blamed for a backline penetrating last season and forgetting how to this season?
Or are other teams reading us better and we are predictable? Do we need coaches to continue with more newer fresher ideas? I just don't understand how you forget how to do the things you did.
Four points which I think explain a lot.
1 - We were made to look better last year than we really were by a number of last gasp kicks
2 - Our try scoring last year was not that great. Only Cardiff of the top 7 sides scored less tries
(we average 2 tries a game last year, this year we have 16 in 9 games - not a lot in it)
3 - Last year we had a number of unknowns - Gilroy, Spence and D'Arcy - the opposition know these players now.
4 - Pienaer has been largely absent
geoff998rugby- Posts : 5249
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Hearing rumours that Afoa and Tereblanche to start against Scarlets with Ruan on the bench.
I'll try and confirm
I'll try and confirm
geoff998rugby- Posts : 5249
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
How about Rory Lamont instead of Terreblanche?
AsLongAsBut100ofUs- Posts : 14129
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
geoff998rugby wrote:
4 - Pienaer has been largely absent
This is huge. Last season would've been a downright disaster for Ulster if Pienaar hadn't been kicking those last minute penalties. 8-point swings on multiple occasions. Obviously there are other issues at hand too but missing a guy of that quality is going to hurt any team.
It's amazing the difference those wins can make to a team's psyche as well. Look at Munster - without those 2 last minute drop goals in the HEC games we'd effectively be out of it already and winning the Rabo again would do nothing to stop the season being a failure.
Ulster are lucky with the quality of players that they have. They also have the full weight of the IRFU behind them, who won't let them turn into a weak province. One bad season and it could be all change in the coaching ranks. Sorry to bring up Munster again but after our weak-as-water "performances" in the pack under Fisher and a failure of a season last year he was sent packing and Foley was promoted from the A setup. The difference was immediate, with Munster winning their playoffs and a very Munsteresque steel in the pack has returned as evidenced in the start of this season.
As much as it hurts now, one bad season is a small price to play to secure the longterm future of the club, IMO.
MMC- Posts : 611
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
MMC wrote:
As much as it hurts now, one bad season is a small price to play to secure the longterm future of the club, IMO.
Yeah I think we are a bit guilty of not looking at the big picture up here and get to bogged down with wanting immediate success. It doesn't help that we are always judged against Munster and Leinster and we have that weight of history to contend with having been so successful in the past.
I would like to see us invest more time in player development rather than buy in players for a quick fix like Terblanche and I wouldn't even mind us loosing some games if we where trying to develope consistant and positive patterns of play. For example I would persevere with D'arcy, Gilroy or Gaston at 15 rather than Danielli or Terblanche. I mean who will play 15 when Payne leaves?
It's all too inconsistant right now, one step forward, two steps back. I don't think we are too far away from getting things right but there seems to be a lack of direction and vision right now.
rodders- Moderator
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Geoff i find myself agreeing with almost everything you wrote. I dont know the politics high up in the Branch but something must be rotten if they are already confirming the same coaching ticket.
Too many old boys in the coaching set up is right. Do Longwell, Bell, Doak, Malone have any top flight experience outside Ulster (and a couple of ireland caps). If so then why oh why where they appointed. You mentioned Sexton who is now i believe Academy or U-20 coach at the Crusaders and we snub him!
I dont think our back play has been scintillating and is heavily reliant on individual brilliance rather than collectively threatening. As regards form i think the only game this season where we have been very good was against Cardiff and we still left plenty of points on the pitch.
What MMC says above is spot on. After/if we are out of the heineken and we are already all but out of contention for the Rabo we need to bring in Marshall, jackson etc and get them up to speed. Those two players are the key to Ulster going forward. Bringing in Jackson between Pienaar and Wallace and Marshall with Pienaar or Wallace at 10 will benefit us in the long run.
I am unconvinced by McLaughlin but maybe we just need to give him better coaching support. either way something needs done unless Doak suddenly gets the backs moving.
As regards the IRFU getting involved i would welcome it. The last time they did we brought in the Logan/Humph partnership which i do believe has been fruitful. THe marketing of Ulster and corporate links they have created are much much better than they were. What could they do about the higher ups? Im not sure but if they are standing in the way of Ulster progressing i hope they do something.
Too many old boys in the coaching set up is right. Do Longwell, Bell, Doak, Malone have any top flight experience outside Ulster (and a couple of ireland caps). If so then why oh why where they appointed. You mentioned Sexton who is now i believe Academy or U-20 coach at the Crusaders and we snub him!
I dont think our back play has been scintillating and is heavily reliant on individual brilliance rather than collectively threatening. As regards form i think the only game this season where we have been very good was against Cardiff and we still left plenty of points on the pitch.
What MMC says above is spot on. After/if we are out of the heineken and we are already all but out of contention for the Rabo we need to bring in Marshall, jackson etc and get them up to speed. Those two players are the key to Ulster going forward. Bringing in Jackson between Pienaar and Wallace and Marshall with Pienaar or Wallace at 10 will benefit us in the long run.
I am unconvinced by McLaughlin but maybe we just need to give him better coaching support. either way something needs done unless Doak suddenly gets the backs moving.
As regards the IRFU getting involved i would welcome it. The last time they did we brought in the Logan/Humph partnership which i do believe has been fruitful. THe marketing of Ulster and corporate links they have created are much much better than they were. What could they do about the higher ups? Im not sure but if they are standing in the way of Ulster progressing i hope they do something.
Standulstermen- Posts : 5451
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
At the end of the day rodders if terblanche comes in and wants to score tries and turn our season around, I'd take that. Terblanche will be the best 15 available to us next week and deliberatly choosing a team weaker than we have available is not going to do us any good.
If we continue this form throughout the season we can kiss goodbye to our stars and any hope of attracting star quality back again.
Terblanche must start.
If we continue this form throughout the season we can kiss goodbye to our stars and any hope of attracting star quality back again.
Terblanche must start.
clivemcl- Posts : 4681
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Rodders
Others will know more but the young lad Nelson coming through is highly thought of i beleive. Already has made his Ulster debut too. Gaston shouldnt be discounted either. I dont mind the Terblanche signing as he is in purely to replace Payne. The young guys coming through could learn massive amounts from these guys as regards positioning etc.
Others will know more but the young lad Nelson coming through is highly thought of i beleive. Already has made his Ulster debut too. Gaston shouldnt be discounted either. I dont mind the Terblanche signing as he is in purely to replace Payne. The young guys coming through could learn massive amounts from these guys as regards positioning etc.
Standulstermen- Posts : 5451
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Friday’s game was a shocker, and I’m a bit worried about Ulster going into freefall. Glasgow are a decent team, but they were poor. We managed to go one better by being woeful.
We are still so mentally fragile. If iHumph had got the penalty when we were drawn 9-9, I think we would have increased the margin. But he misses, pulls a face, and the team’s confidence collapses. People can talk about Pienaar’s last-minute kicks to win games – it was iHumph who calmly slotted one over against Biarritz at Ravenhill, from some distance out, to win in a seriously high-pressure HEC game (until Northampton, probably his most important game in an Ulster shirt).
I share concerns about the coaches. I’m worried about iHumph’s form. It doesn’t look like he trusts Spence at 12 – when he plays there, all of a sudden, Humphreys – who loves to run the ball – starts hoofing garryowens everywhere.
Deflated and frustrated. But still Standing Up.
Let’s get Afoa and Terblanche in, 30 min for St Ruan, and put the Scarlets to the sword. The only thing I can do is go along and bellow, so that’s what I’ll do
We are still so mentally fragile. If iHumph had got the penalty when we were drawn 9-9, I think we would have increased the margin. But he misses, pulls a face, and the team’s confidence collapses. People can talk about Pienaar’s last-minute kicks to win games – it was iHumph who calmly slotted one over against Biarritz at Ravenhill, from some distance out, to win in a seriously high-pressure HEC game (until Northampton, probably his most important game in an Ulster shirt).
I share concerns about the coaches. I’m worried about iHumph’s form. It doesn’t look like he trusts Spence at 12 – when he plays there, all of a sudden, Humphreys – who loves to run the ball – starts hoofing garryowens everywhere.
Deflated and frustrated. But still Standing Up.
Let’s get Afoa and Terblanche in, 30 min for St Ruan, and put the Scarlets to the sword. The only thing I can do is go along and bellow, so that’s what I’ll do
Don Alfonso- Posts : 2722
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
roddersm wrote: I would like to see us invest more time in player development rather than buy in players for a quick fix like Terblanche and I wouldn't even mind us loosing some games if we where trying to develope consistant and positive patterns of play. For example I would persevere with D'arcy, Gilroy or Gaston at 15 rather than Danielli or Terblanche. I mean who will play 15 when Payne leaves?
I think Standup has it spot on Gaston and/or Nelson should develop enough to take over the role when Payne leaves. I think this decision is a correct one - no IQ or indeed SQ player is good enough to play 15 at this level.
Trouble we dont have a 10 good enough either..at least imo
geoff998rugby- Posts : 5249
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Re: Ulster in Crises ?
geoff998rugby wrote:I agree a scrum coach is a must and Matt Sexton was prepared to do it as well but we turned him down - madness
Notch- Moderator
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Join date : 2011-02-10
Age : 36
Location : Belfast
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Whilst i agree with Notch on the other thread that Jackson isnt yet the sum of all the hype i am certain he is going to be the best Ulster can produce so i would be giving him significant gametime in the Rabo run in. He has the tools but as has been alluded to i think he needs a top coach to take him on and i dont think Doak fits the bill.
Standulstermen- Posts : 5451
Join date : 2011-02-16
Age : 41
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
100,000 was, I believe, the salary.
Some, admitedly crude maths:
Get in:
John Andress, 4 decent coaches for scrum, backs, defence and forwards.
All on, say 100,000 = 1/2 million
Instead of:
Afoa 320,000, 4 coaches(say 45,000 each) = 1/2 million.
Which would have been the better move ?
I say the former and that is meant as no disrespect to John Afoa who is a fine addition.
Some, admitedly crude maths:
Get in:
John Andress, 4 decent coaches for scrum, backs, defence and forwards.
All on, say 100,000 = 1/2 million
Instead of:
Afoa 320,000, 4 coaches(say 45,000 each) = 1/2 million.
Which would have been the better move ?
I say the former and that is meant as no disrespect to John Afoa who is a fine addition.
geoff998rugby- Posts : 5249
Join date : 2011-06-09
Age : 70
Location : Belfast/Ardglass
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Don Alfonso wrote:
Let’s get Afoa and Terblanche in, 30 min for St Ruan, and put the Scarlets to the sword. The only thing I can do is go along and bellow, so that’s what I’ll do
And what will that teach us? That we can sign good players for a quick fix but we can't take talented young players and get them to produce on the pitch?
Where has all the Ruan Pienaar shows last season got us? Nowhere because as soon as he's not there we revert back to type. NIQ signings are a quick fix not a solution.
People are saying Terblanche will save us because D'arcy isn't good enough...well Trimble fumbled a straightforward catch too and he and Danielli (who has been a disaster this season), two seasoned international wingers, butchered a two on one with the Glasgow fullback and even ended up conceding a penalty, when a try seemed certain. Darren Cave looked like an NFL quarter back with some of his passing.
Should we ditch all these guys too? If so we better hope the IRFU raises the NIQ quota because 2/3's of the team are playing worse than D'arcy.
Its time we started getting the players we have performing rather than having a revolving door recruitment policy.
rodders- Moderator
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Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 43
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Its not an issue of being reliant of Terblanche Rodders. Its tempering bringing through the young guys and giving them an example with trying to remain competitive. (i agree with you btw that D'arcy gets much more stick than others and he has been messed about this season)
Nelson is only out of school and it is a bit early to be relying totally on Gaston. I would like to see the latter being involved in squads more mind you. I can see how young guys who want to learn could learn from watching Terblanche play in the same way Marshall has come on from watching Pienaar (he still has limitations but his box kicking for one thing is dramatically improved)
Geoff
Regarding the coaches v Afoa finance there. Surely if we are reduced to 4 NIQ's next year we should have the finance for an additional coach or two.
Nelson is only out of school and it is a bit early to be relying totally on Gaston. I would like to see the latter being involved in squads more mind you. I can see how young guys who want to learn could learn from watching Terblanche play in the same way Marshall has come on from watching Pienaar (he still has limitations but his box kicking for one thing is dramatically improved)
Geoff
Regarding the coaches v Afoa finance there. Surely if we are reduced to 4 NIQ's next year we should have the finance for an additional coach or two.
Standulstermen- Posts : 5451
Join date : 2011-02-16
Age : 41
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Stand I'm probably thinking out loud a bit. I don't have the answers. I can see why we signed Treblanche and Payne.
However with Payne out I would have rather have seen us explore all our options rather than go straight out and sign someone else.
D'arcy made a few high profile mistakes last season but did a lot right too. At 22(?) I would have expected him to be better this year if our coaching is up to scratch. Why not just give him a run at 15 to see how he goes? If not D'arcy then Gilroy.
The sooner Danielli is gone the better, he just looks disinterested right now.
However with Payne out I would have rather have seen us explore all our options rather than go straight out and sign someone else.
D'arcy made a few high profile mistakes last season but did a lot right too. At 22(?) I would have expected him to be better this year if our coaching is up to scratch. Why not just give him a run at 15 to see how he goes? If not D'arcy then Gilroy.
The sooner Danielli is gone the better, he just looks disinterested right now.
rodders- Moderator
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Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 43
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Don't think so as Simon Danielli will be the one to go and his salary is not that great plus a number of the lads coming through will be expecting promotion from the Academy to the Full Squad which take up the surplus.
Anyway the word is no change - unless things get a lot worse.
It is a must that a 15 can be relied on to catch the high ball.
Neither Danielli or D'arcy can be relied upon ..story end of.
It is absolutely true we must develop our players if we are to be successful -hence the crying need for quality coaches.
For whatever reasons most of our IQ players are not where they need to be to go up a level.
As I mentioned we only have 7 big match players at this club and 4 of them are foreigners. That hurts but it is the reality we face. Others need to step up to the mark - some are trying, most are failing
Anyway the word is no change - unless things get a lot worse.
It is a must that a 15 can be relied on to catch the high ball.
Neither Danielli or D'arcy can be relied upon ..story end of.
It is absolutely true we must develop our players if we are to be successful -hence the crying need for quality coaches.
For whatever reasons most of our IQ players are not where they need to be to go up a level.
As I mentioned we only have 7 big match players at this club and 4 of them are foreigners. That hurts but it is the reality we face. Others need to step up to the mark - some are trying, most are failing
geoff998rugby- Posts : 5249
Join date : 2011-06-09
Age : 70
Location : Belfast/Ardglass
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Jackson may not be the be-all and end-all, but we played six games or so at the start of last season with NOC and we won a run of them (albeit not prettily).
Rodders, it won't teach us anything. It will help us win the game. We could start with Macklin and Nelson, and get beaten soundly, and what would they have learned from a dispiriting loss and humiliation?
Matt Williams adopted the "we're not going to win anything, let's throw all the youngsters in together" MO after Christmas of his last tenure. It was a horrible time to be an Ulster fan, and didn't seem to stand us in great stead when McLaughlin took over. the youngsters didn't flourish. McCrea is at Connacht, and Jamie Smith is wondering what he's doing at the Dragons.
Your last sentence I couldn't agree with more. But who is a part of the "revolving door recruitment policy" you speak of? Muller, who has signed an extension? Pienaar, who wants to? Payne, who will be here for three years? We can build a team around these guys, with able, talented young understudies who are learning from them. Look at what Elsom did for Leinster - he lifted the team a level with his performances, and then you had a squad with greater confidence and experience at the top level when he left.
As I say, I agree fully with your last sentence. Throwing a load of children won't do it, though.
Rodders, it won't teach us anything. It will help us win the game. We could start with Macklin and Nelson, and get beaten soundly, and what would they have learned from a dispiriting loss and humiliation?
Matt Williams adopted the "we're not going to win anything, let's throw all the youngsters in together" MO after Christmas of his last tenure. It was a horrible time to be an Ulster fan, and didn't seem to stand us in great stead when McLaughlin took over. the youngsters didn't flourish. McCrea is at Connacht, and Jamie Smith is wondering what he's doing at the Dragons.
Your last sentence I couldn't agree with more. But who is a part of the "revolving door recruitment policy" you speak of? Muller, who has signed an extension? Pienaar, who wants to? Payne, who will be here for three years? We can build a team around these guys, with able, talented young understudies who are learning from them. Look at what Elsom did for Leinster - he lifted the team a level with his performances, and then you had a squad with greater confidence and experience at the top level when he left.
As I say, I agree fully with your last sentence. Throwing a load of children won't do it, though.
Don Alfonso- Posts : 2722
Join date : 2011-05-09
Age : 48
Location : The 'Shaft
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
D'Arcy is actually 26 years old rodders. He's not a 'young' player he should be hitting his peak soon enough.
Our strategy is failing. Investment in big name players has brought us forward but can only bring us so far. We need a better and bigger coaching staff to match.
Our strategy is failing. Investment in big name players has brought us forward but can only bring us so far. We need a better and bigger coaching staff to match.
Last edited by Notch on Mon 28 Nov - 13:19; edited 1 time in total
Notch- Moderator
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Join date : 2011-02-10
Age : 36
Location : Belfast
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
roddersm wrote:Stand I'm probably thinking out loud a bit. I don't have the answers. I can see why we signed Treblanche and Payne.
Payne was brought here to help develop the young backs and organize them. You may recall that he did a lot of talking during the few matches he played. The guy would/will be a tremendous asset and will be a player our backs will learn from and they will be better for it; a bit like Botha improved scrumaging at the club.
Basically the NIQ players are being brought in as much as coaches as players.
Marshall and IHumph for example have both gone public on what they have learnt from Ruan.
So the coaches are even getting half their job done for them
Terblanche was simple a short term judgement call to help us progress in Europe.
The management decided that with D'Arcy or Danielli at 15 we would be too weak - I agree
geoff998rugby- Posts : 5249
Join date : 2011-06-09
Age : 70
Location : Belfast/Ardglass
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
I think we need to trust the player we have, I really do. I don't think we are doing a good job at bringing these guys through at all.
One minute they look like world beaters and then we seem to knock the confidence out of them or they plateau.
Even Gilroy is losing his spark. I think there is a huge amount of potential there but a lot of these guys will end up on the scrapheap if we don't change our philosphy on player development, recruitment and selection.
One minute they look like world beaters and then we seem to knock the confidence out of them or they plateau.
Even Gilroy is losing his spark. I think there is a huge amount of potential there but a lot of these guys will end up on the scrapheap if we don't change our philosphy on player development, recruitment and selection.
rodders- Moderator
- Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 43
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Whats changed from last year. Remember all those "Ulster are gonna rule the international team" thread.
McAllister, Annett, Tuohy, Faloon, Jackson, L.Marshall, Spence, Gilroy etc were tossed about as future Ireland greats. Just as it was a bit exaggerated last year is it really that bad now?
As I see it, injury and abense of players has hit a side with little depth badly. Good 1st XV though.
McAllister, Annett, Tuohy, Faloon, Jackson, L.Marshall, Spence, Gilroy etc were tossed about as future Ireland greats. Just as it was a bit exaggerated last year is it really that bad now?
As I see it, injury and abense of players has hit a side with little depth badly. Good 1st XV though.
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
geoff998rugby wrote:Terblanche was simple a short term judgement call to help us progress in Europe.
The management decided that with D'Arcy or Danielli at 15 we would be too weak - I agree
Big time- we are absolutely SCREAMING out for some experience in our backline. Wallace was doing a good job for us and played well, it's a massive shame he got injured because Spence doesn't seem to fully understand how to excel in the 12 role.
Notch- Moderator
- Posts : 25635
Join date : 2011-02-10
Age : 36
Location : Belfast
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
red_stag wrote:Whats changed from last year. Remember all those "Ulster are gonna rule the international team" thread.
McAllister, Annett, Tuohy, Faloon, Jackson, L.Marshall, Spence, Gilroy etc were tossed about as future Ireland greats. Just as it was a bit exaggerated last year is it really that bad now?
As I see it, injury and abense of players has hit a side with little depth badly. Good 1st XV though.
I really dont recall anyone saying any of those players had anything other than potential, I certainly dont remember anyone saying Faloon or Annett were going to be a future Ireland greats.
Right about having great strength but very little depth though.
Artful_Dodger- Posts : 4260
Join date : 2011-05-31
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
A few bad results is not a crisis. Ulster have a good squad with a few gaps in it. It's not worth throwing the baby out with the bath water.
You have some good players performing poorly at the moment and are scattering blame about like leafs in the wind.
The loss to Glasgow at the weekend can be put down to an off day with the kicking tee for Humph, a rough night at the breakdown (thank you John Barclay) and a powerful Glasgow defensive effort.
Was it not just a couple of weeks ago you beat Clermont?
Chill out guys!
You have some good players performing poorly at the moment and are scattering blame about like leafs in the wind.
The loss to Glasgow at the weekend can be put down to an off day with the kicking tee for Humph, a rough night at the breakdown (thank you John Barclay) and a powerful Glasgow defensive effort.
Was it not just a couple of weeks ago you beat Clermont?
Chill out guys!
RuggerRadge2611- Posts : 7194
Join date : 2011-03-04
Age : 39
Location : The North, The REAL North (Beyond the Wall)
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Notch wrote:D'Arcy is actually 26 years old rodders. He's not a 'young' player he should be hitting his peak soon enough.
Our strategy is failing. Investment in big name players has brought us forward but can only bring us so far. We need a better and bigger coaching staff to match.
Sorry my mistake, thought he was younger, the point still stands, hes a better and younger option than Danielli who I wouldn't trust to catch a cold or Terblanche who'll be gone next season.
rodders- Moderator
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Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 43
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Artful_Dodger wrote:red_stag wrote:Whats changed from last year. Remember all those "Ulster are gonna rule the international team" thread.
McAllister, Annett, Tuohy, Faloon, Jackson, L.Marshall, Spence, Gilroy etc were tossed about as future Ireland greats. Just as it was a bit exaggerated last year is it really that bad now?
As I see it, injury and abense of players has hit a side with little depth badly. Good 1st XV though.
I really dont recall anyone saying any of those players had anything other than potential, I certainly dont remember anyone saying Faloon or Annett were going to be a future Ireland greats.
Right about having great strength but very little depth though.
Faloon definitely was mentioned pointing out he is a true 7 etc. Annett won a lot of admirers when he captained Ireland U20s.
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Stag I thought Faloon would be getting close to international standard this year. Unfortunately he seems to have really dropped off the radar but he certainly hasn't come close to reaching his potential, like a lot of our players.
rodders- Moderator
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Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 43
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
I think getting Graham Henry in for the rest of the season in an Advisory Role would help.
Let's be honest, there is a problem in the coaches and having an experienced and fresh set of eyes can help.
I think this is McL first Head coach role so surely getting someone who's basically done it all can only help?
Let's be honest, there is a problem in the coaches and having an experienced and fresh set of eyes can help.
I think this is McL first Head coach role so surely getting someone who's basically done it all can only help?
1F'sgonnagetya!- Posts : 115
Join date : 2011-05-18
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
1F'sgonnagetya! wrote:I think getting Graham Henry in for the rest of the season in an Advisory Role would help.
Good shout. Anyone else want to help chip in with his wages?
rodders- Moderator
- Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 43
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
red_stag wrote:Whats changed from last year. Remember all those "Ulster are gonna rule the international team" thread.
McAllister, Annett, Tuohy, Faloon, Jackson, L.Marshall, Spence, Gilroy etc were tossed about as future Ireland greats. Just as it was a bit exaggerated last year is it really that bad now?
As I see it, injury and abense of players has hit a side with little depth badly. Good 1st XV though.
Ulster do have a number of high quality players coming through the ranks - at least in positions 1 to 3 and in the backs.
However some are some way off yet - Annett for example and Gaston and Nelson and indeed Jackson who is still only 19.
McAllister is a fine prospect - his scrummaging has not progressed this year though - maybe a lack of a coach is a factor.
McAllister, Spence and Gilroy may all be suffering a bit of 2nd season sybdrome but all remain fine prospects for Ireland as well as Ulster. Luke Marshall has a bad injury and not got a chance - he remains the pick of the bunch for me.
Tuohy at his best is an Ireland contender but as I have said above he needs to stand up and be counted - he is one of the players failing us.
Faloon is not International class but he is our only genuine 7 and is useful because of that fact.
He is not as good as Pollock was.
Ulster do have a crop of youngsters good enough for Ireland but they will develop at different rates and they will hit the International level at different times, and yes one or two will not develop as promised. However this progression will not happen overnight or even in a year - it will take time.
geoff998rugby- Posts : 5249
Join date : 2011-06-09
Age : 70
Location : Belfast/Ardglass
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Geoff I share your frustration, but a lot of what you're saying has little foundation.
For example the Ulster Academy has been producing good young players proving ready to make the step up. It is when the youngsters come under the control of the senior coaches that they start to stall.
I agree with Rodders that the scrum has been doing well considering that Ulster has been without their three main looseheads for most of the season. Also it was obvious the difference that Muller and the other RWC returnees made to the pack. Ulster have been generating plenty of good quality ball since, and despite the abyssmal lineout last Friday still should have had more than enough possession to win the game.
AFAIK Johnny Bell's primary role is as a defence coach and that is one area that Ulster have been strong. There's nothing wrong with "jobs for the boys" if the boys prove to be capable. Successful clubs throughout Europe are filled with ex-players coaching them - would Matt Sexton be seen as anything different?
OTOH McLaughlin may be a good technical coach but I'm not at all convinced about him as a head coach. His responsibility is selection (including his coaching team) and gameplan. Neither area has made much sense this season.
Having said all that the elephant in the room is quite obvious and has been largely ignored - Ian Humphreys isn't Test class, or at least not often enough.
Flyhalf is the one position in the team where Ulster don't have a Test player when everyone is fit, yet it is the most critical position in the fifteen! Supposedly the IRFU blocked Ulster signing Nick Evans before he signed for Quins, and Ulster had to make do with baby Humph. At his best he wins games but he is too inconsistent to win trophies. Until Ulster either sign or produce a more consistent playmaker they won't consistently make plays that execute a gameplan, so how are coaches supposed to deal with that?
For example the Ulster Academy has been producing good young players proving ready to make the step up. It is when the youngsters come under the control of the senior coaches that they start to stall.
I agree with Rodders that the scrum has been doing well considering that Ulster has been without their three main looseheads for most of the season. Also it was obvious the difference that Muller and the other RWC returnees made to the pack. Ulster have been generating plenty of good quality ball since, and despite the abyssmal lineout last Friday still should have had more than enough possession to win the game.
AFAIK Johnny Bell's primary role is as a defence coach and that is one area that Ulster have been strong. There's nothing wrong with "jobs for the boys" if the boys prove to be capable. Successful clubs throughout Europe are filled with ex-players coaching them - would Matt Sexton be seen as anything different?
OTOH McLaughlin may be a good technical coach but I'm not at all convinced about him as a head coach. His responsibility is selection (including his coaching team) and gameplan. Neither area has made much sense this season.
Having said all that the elephant in the room is quite obvious and has been largely ignored - Ian Humphreys isn't Test class, or at least not often enough.
Flyhalf is the one position in the team where Ulster don't have a Test player when everyone is fit, yet it is the most critical position in the fifteen! Supposedly the IRFU blocked Ulster signing Nick Evans before he signed for Quins, and Ulster had to make do with baby Humph. At his best he wins games but he is too inconsistent to win trophies. Until Ulster either sign or produce a more consistent playmaker they won't consistently make plays that execute a gameplan, so how are coaches supposed to deal with that?
The Great Aukster- Posts : 5246
Join date : 2011-06-09
Re: Ulster in Crises ?
Rodders, I thought we had a bit of money behind us, outside of the IRFU pennies?
1F'sgonnagetya!- Posts : 115
Join date : 2011-05-18
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