Leinster: Young lads on fire (Irish chances??)

First topic message reminder :

This is just a quick article on some of the young guys I have been most impressed with so far this season for Leinster who are IQ and should be in the Irish managements teams plans or should be a bigger part of those plans than they were before.

Cronin:
Didn't get to play much at the RWC but since he has come back for Leinster he has been doing well, one of the main points I'd like to make on the guy is that the source of most peoples worry (his throwing) has improved beyond recognition. He still is playing well in the loose be it in carrying or running support lines but his work in the tight has come up a notch. He is playing with a fire in his belly and is relishing the battle with Strauss it would seem. Also his error count is much lower than in previous seasons. Could do with improving his work in the srum and trying to create those mini mauls at times but huge improvements at the start of this season IMO.
Verdict: Not good enough to oust Best, but DK shouldn't be scared of getting him on the pitch.

Toner:
Bank of Ireland player of the month last month. Known for his great lineout work and how soft he is, he has really knuckled down this season. He has toughened up in the abscence of Hines and his work with ball in ahnd is much better as he doesn't go into contact so high, he also offloads and passes before contact more, we don't see him getting blown backwards anymore. He was always good on Leinster ball but he seems to have got better at stealing opposition ball now too which is a welcome addition and others in the camp say he has became something of a leader during the RWC. Needs to keep this work rate up and nail down a spot in the starting XV week in week out.
Verdict: Not good enough to challenge POC, Ryan, DOC but should be looking to break into the 30 man squad of the 6N as a medium term goal. Challenging Cullen and Tuohy.

Madigan:
Was behind McKingley and Sexton last year but is now getting more game time and seems to be trusted more too. He runs a backline very well and in general his defence is good, it was his game management that needed improvement and it got it. He now bosses games and bosses players, moving them where he wants them. He still pushes the flair button which is good but he knows that at times it's best to kick corners or crash it up. Still has a lot to learn and the more he plays the better but he is coming along nicely.
Verdict: Should be in the 6N training squad but will probably lose out to Keatley, however the experience and the confidence it will give him should be invaluable.

O'Malley:
In the abscence of BOD McFadden was given a shot at 13 and did well without lighting the place up (IMO). O'Malley had been playing 13 alongside Fitz during the RWC and was playing well, making breaks, getting outside guys and remaining defensively solid. He got called up when McFadden was injured against Glasgow and performed brilliantly. He has shown that he is more than a guy with quick feet, he can pass well, he is an excellent line runner and his defence is more than just solid (even for such a small guy). Needs to hold onto the 13 jersey until January and hold of McFadden and then who knows.
Verdict: Will be in the 6N training squad and has a chance albeit not a great one at starting a game or two. (A lot remains to be seen)

Fitzgerald:
After such a disappointment in not making the RWC (and rightly so IMO) he has really taken the finger out. No more is he butchering try scoring opportunities or remaining a defensively solid but offensively useless winger. From day 1 back in the Leinster camp he has been making breaks and half breaks, holding on to passes. Linking well and offloading whenever it was on. In general he has become not only more solid in the basics but also he ha recovered some of his flair and agility. Still needs to start scoring tries but he is doing well. There may well be a huge tussle between Carr and himself. Needs to work out what position to play in also, 12, 13 or wing.
Verdict: Is still a utility man and needs to nail down a place singular in the Leinster team (12 IMO) he will make the 6N squad and will be pushing hard for a spot in the 22 ahead of Trimble or Earls

On a side note: was disappointed with Dominic Ryan and was really looking for him to kick on and be Ireland's answer at 7.

Overall there have been some very good performances which is only a good thing for Irish rugby and particularily in certain positions like 13 where Ireland are missing a guy who can try and live in BOD's shadow, we have a lot of options but we need someone to really stand up. ROG will retire in the next 2 years so we may need another 10 other than Keatley and Sexton. With Fla not playing yet it's a good thing Cronin is improving also.

Have I missed out on anyone at Leinster?
Would anyone like to tell us about some of the players in other provinces?
Does someone completely disagree in something I've written or have another point to add?

I think on form this season he deserves it more than Tuohy (and I am a huge Tuohy fan). If anyone gets injured also Toner could find himself involved very quickly.

Stag-
What are the three you mentioned like and ages? Don't know them really other than Nagle.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think on form this season he deserves it more than Tuohy (and I am a huge Tuohy fan). If anyone gets injured also Toner could find himself involved very quickly.

Thats probably true. Tuohy has been awesome at times this season but has gone missing a few times too.

Do people think locks peaking in their late 20's is true?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think on form this season he deserves it more than Tuohy (and I am a huge Tuohy fan). If anyone gets injured also Toner could find himself involved very quickly.

Stag-
What are the three you mentioned like and ages? Don't know them really other than Nagle.

Dave Foley, 23 years old. 6 Foot, 6 Inches. Has played 4 Celtic League matches this season. He has shown promise IMO and captained the Munster A team.

Dave O'Callaghan, 21 years old. 6 Foot, 5 Inches. Only featured once in the Pro 12 this season. Like Donnacha Ryan or Billy Holland for Munster he covers both blindside flanker and second row.

Ian Nagle, 23 years old. 6 Foot, 6 Inches. Got Man of the Match against Australia last year. Has played twice for Ireland 'A'. Probably Munster's 5th choice lock after the 4 internationals.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Do people think locks peaking in their late 20's is true?

It might be. I don't believe it personally I think thats just something people say to make themselves feel better.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Do people think locks peaking in their late 20's is true?

It might be. I don't believe it personally I think thats just something people say to make themselves feel better.

A tight 5 forward is not as reliant on speed and athleticism, which declines with age and more on physical strength and technique which can improve with age and training so in that respect age is less of an issue than for backs or even backrowers.

So yes it is true to some degree.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Do people think locks peaking in their late 20's is true?

Yeah. Not a rule without exceptions. But locks are generally at their best in their late 20's and early 30's. Props can be in their late 20's before they even win their first cap. Speed, which is the first thing to decline in an ageing player, is less important in these positions. Physical grunt and and technical experience are more important.

Thanks Stag, MOD and DOC must be retiring in the next 2-3 years and that may give Nagle a chance to come through more in the pro 12 than he is currently.

Toner has a lot of good attributes now as 'the lineout specialist' of the second row pairing. He is very tall, and excellent at securing his own lineout ball and pretty good at stealing oppositions. He now is a bit more fluid in the loose and can do the whole interchanging between forwards and backs a bit better as he seems to have developed softer hands in the offload and pre contact pass, and a harder shoulder and stronger legs in contact.
His defence has never really been an issue but he appears more aggressive lately.

He is just missing that brute strength I think and then a lot of the nous.Not the finished article but getting there hopefully.

It would be good to see Toner progress,this would shore up one of the few positions we don't seem to have much talent coming through.

Can he become an option for the bench perhaps in a few years? Note: not a dead cert for the bench, he'd be fighting for a spot on the bench

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:He is just missing that brute strength. Not the finished article but getting there hopefully.

At 7 foot tall and 20 stone you would think strenght shouldn't be the issue,

Maybe it's aggression then? He is missing the POC kinda of rage to wade through opposition mauls or hold lads up while the rest of the pack arrives

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Maybe it's aggression then? He is missing the POC kinda of rage to wade through opposition mauls or hold lads up while the rest of the pack arrives

Agree, he lacks aggression and if he is very strong he doesn't use it well. The best locks intimidate and terrify the opposition. Like Johnson or POC or Bakkies. I can't imagine anyone being afraid of Toner. His sheer height will cause them some concern in the lineout. But I just haven't ever seen the necessary physicality from him, that's required to be a really good lock. Although it has improved a bit this year to be fair.

I really think Fitz will find his position at 13. I think that is where all his skills can be used best. The problem is would he actually get to play there with O'Malley, or would O'Malley move to 12 (where I think he may be best suited). I think Fitz still has a lot to offer and he just has some moments of true brilliance than many other players lack. He has the talent, he just needs the confidence to go with it. Crazy that he is only 24 or something still.

I know this thread isnt the place for it but just heard on the news keith matthews has been forced to retire after he did his achilles in last april.
Sad for the man and serious blow for connacht who look very thin at centre.
Hes played 7 times for the wolfhounds and was in the team that won the churchill cup.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2011/1129/matthewsk.html

Red stag. What do you think of mc fadden haha.

Darcy and earls will probably start god help us all. Dont think kidney will experiment given new autumn internationals regardless of form

I know this is a Leinster thread, but, as a Leinster and Ireland fan, it is all connected.

The tripe written about McFadden on this thread is worthy of the Sunday World Rugby section. Complete football player. Even Kidney can see it. Not a 10. Nowhere near it. But, he Kicks better than Keatley and iHumph. A great cover for Sexton. Can play wing internationally, but is a far better 12. It's where he needs to be. Darcy is his enemy. Dorce is near finished internationally. Its just a matter of time for Mcfadden at provincial and international levels. I agree his all-round ability is styming him at the minute. Talent can work against you sometimes. He needs to nail 12 for Leinster and then Ireland. With O' Malley outside him - if given the chance, at centre-pairing at Leinster 1st.

IF, we had a decent and inspired National coach (we don't, this has been proven to the rugby World) - players who should be looking over their shoulders for Ireland are Earls(a massively over-hyped Kidney favourite who will never see the potential expected of him now) And a fast diminishing Tommy Bowe. I really hate this nailed-on shoite. So Irish. So predictable - like our team and coach. Mediocrity rules. Earls - like Fitz, is a winger. NOT an international-class FB. NOT a international-class centre. So stop experimenting already Kidney.

Promote Trimble to where he belongs. To the 1st XV. Leave Murray and Sexton develop together in the 6-N and beyond. See if Fitz can claim his spot back on the wing (via Leinster) and NO where else on the field. Exact same goes for Earls - internationally. Pray Felix Jones gets back to his best and set him against Kearney for FB.

Cronin is chomping at the bit after his RWC. Is rising to the challenge, but, he still has his work cut out for him in fully displacing the far superior Strauss at Leinster. And soon - as Ireland's no 2 hooker. Rory is now our undisputed 1st No 2 and possibly - next Captain. Forget Fla - thats over now. Forget Varley - not near good enough. No one else is in the game with those 3 now. Its Best and then Cronin/Strauss.

O Malley is presently fast homing in on being the best player we have to replacing BOD. Best Irish 13 in the country (as of now) and he is only starting out. Schmidt should not and will not move him - if he persists at this level. If he does not continue this rise - Macken will come into the equation. I have studied Schmidt's selections - he's checking it all out - unlike Kidney. Macken, to me, is an even better prospect. But, that' s all he is right now - a prodigiously talented - prospect.

Toner is growing up at all levels of his play. A huge weapon at the lineout and is becoming a menace in the loose and the scrum. The verdict is still out on him. Must continue his rise in confidence - having been one of Leinster's leaders when the Internationals were away. Must be a 1st choice lock at Leinster in the HC - never mind the PRO12.

Madigan has the right stuff for HC level. Starting to control and manage games now. Place-kicking needs work. Out-of-hand kicking is excellent. He's small and stocky in stature, but, still a far better defender than one-turn ROG. So, that's an improvement at backup standoff for Ireland. Humph and Keatley - forget it.

Lots more to say... but that's enough discussion-material for now.

The most frustrating thing about McFadden is that the last time he played at 12 was in May. Granted he didn’t have a good game, but he hadn’t played at 12 before that in a good while, and still hasn’t played there this season.

People are saying he’s overhyped but he hasn’t played in his best position in a long time. hopefully he gets in there soon.

The player welfare program must be calling for giving Darcy a rest soon surely?!!?

Gibbo,

The experimentation of Earls at winger, centre and fullback was necessary due to the RWC. We could only bring 30 players - versatility was vital.

If Strauss is picked for Ireland I will not accept the decision quietly. It will make a mockery of the international game and I will be greatly disillutioned to see that countries can now successfully buy players. Agree on Cronin's performance.

Madigan ahead of Keatley? Don't make me laugh. Keatley will be first choice in a year or so. Madigan is behind a still young fylhalf and although is doing fine, it not in same class as Keatley yet.

I don't think Toner will ever be at the level where we are confident is his ability for Ireland. He lacks agreession, he cannot use his size to his advantage and despite a lack of top class locks at Leinster cannot make the position his own.

O'Malley is the dogs bollix. Big fan of his. No problems to see him start all our 6 Nations games. BOD could have a fight on his hands to get the jersey back.

Although I accept that McFadden will probably earn the 12 shirt at Leinster and Ireland, I am certain that it won't be this year and fear that it will only come about once Darcy and Wallace are literally on their last legs. We have no other real options at 12 so he'll get in by default. Apart from the Churchill Cup which was now 3 years ago, what are his top performances at 12. Currently the most over rated player in Ireland.

Mickado wrote:The most frustrating thing about McFadden is that the last time he played at 12 was in May. Granted he didn’t have a good game, but he hadn’t played at 12 before that in a good while, and still hasn’t played there this season.

People are saying he’s overhyped but he hasn’t played in his best position in a long time. hopefully he gets in there soon.

The player welfare program must be calling for giving Darcy a rest soon surely?!!?

To me Mick theres a REASON he isn't playing at 12. If he was good enough he'd get it. Donnacha Ryan at Munster played blindside very well for much of last season and has now ousted Donnacha O'Callaghan from the Munster team.

See I don’t think he’s over rated, because all I ever read about him is that he’s over rated! All I’m saying is that with Darcy fit I think Schmidt is reluctant to drop him as he is the old head in midfield. With O’Malley outside him and Sexton being rested it’s a cautious decision to not have too many inexperienced players in that at the same time.

McFadden has had some quality games in the center, Just as an example off the top of my head against Munster in TP last year (not last season) he was top quality.

Long story short, we haven’t seen him at 12 this season because we haven’t NEEDED to see him at 12.

Mickado wrote:See I don’t think he’s over rated, because all I ever read about him is that he’s over rated

Really? Most of what I've read about him is how we need to get him into the Irish team ASAP ahead of Darcy and Wallace. There were calls to have him starting in RWC

Excuses excuses...when BOD is fit Smchidt doesn't want to drop D'arcy to keep the BOD/D'arcy combo together and when BOD is out he needs to keep an old head in there so can't drop D'arcy??

Come of it guys why don't you just accept what the rest of us all know....yer man McFadden is rubbish....

roddersm wrote:Excuses excuses...when BOD is fit Smchidt doesn't want to drop D'arcy to keep the BOD/D'arcy combo together and when BOD is out he needs to keep an old head in there so can't drop D'arcy??

Come of it guys why don't you just accept what the rest of us all know....yer man McFadden is rubbish....

And don't forget that Leinster play excellently with Darcy at 12 - won the HEC and were Magners League Finalist last year. This year coasting in the HEC and are joined first in the Pro 12.

Fergus who?

I probably touted him for a start at 12 during the world cup (for the US or Russian games), but he only started 1 game and it was on the wing. After that I didn’t expect/hope to see him play in the center. Since then, it seems to have become fashionable to run him down. Now I’m not building him up, I’m just saying that people should judge his performances when he’s playing in his best position.

He played in the center for the second half of the ML semi final against Ulster last year, had a cracking game.

If Strauss plays it will be a sad day for Irish rugby.

Buying in players is anathema

But Mick, why is Joe Schmidt not picking him if thats the case. Some claim the IRFU want Darcy in there. Personally I think Schmidt simply doesn't want to take an unnecesary risk and upset a winning team.

Its 2012 in a month . Delving back into 2010 to find some good performances shows that he isn't playing well now. You will say the reason for that is that he isn't playing 12. Personally the reason he isn't playing at 12 is that he isn't playing well.

Chicken and Egg situation.

geoff998rugby wrote:If Strauss plays it will be a sad day for Irish rugby.

Buying in players is anathema

Agree entirely. All jokes aside I would probably write a letter to the IRFU were that the case. Can't describe how little I would value the international game should that happen.

geoff998rugby wrote:If Strauss plays it will be a sad day for Irish rugby.

Buying in players is anathema

I suppose Boss grew up whistling dixie by the shores of the Laggan, did he?

Boss has a grandparent who was Irish born and bred - Strauss has no family association with Ireland.

I would prefer some residency period for those qualified via grandparents but the bottom line is Boss has Irish ties - Strauss doesn't

Boyne/G,

The difference is that Boss has Irish family and has been 7 years in Ireland.

Strauss was bought by IRELAND. Not Leinster. Ireland. Our country actively sought out somebody and offered them the chance to represent out country.

I think its deplorable. The likes of Boss or Court I have no problem with. This makes a mockery of the international game.

G wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:If Strauss plays it will be a sad day for Irish rugby.

Buying in players is anathema

I suppose Boss grew up whistling dixie by the shores of the Laggan, did he?

Actually he was touring in a dubliners tribute band with Tom Court.

Stag, he wasn’t brought to Ireland to play for us.

Leinster go to the IRFU and say “we’ve indentified a player who isn’t IQ but will be in 3 years, can we sign him?”

Simple as. I know you think it would make a mockery of the rules, but the rules are clear and unless they’re changed then why would the IRFU give up what could be a competitive advantage?

Mick,

Yes thats EXACTLY what they have done and thats the problem. The only reason he was allowed to be signed is that he can represent Ireland. Its not just Strauss; but people like Borlase at Munster giving this sort of interview - http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/news/5440.php. Im delighted he failed at Munster.

I dont give a fiddlers about the rules. We have a system where the provinces are naturalising foreign players identified by the IRFU as being future Irish interntaionals.

Im amazed any fan with a shred of respect for Ireland could stand the notion.

Whats to stop Japan or Russia or England or France just buying most of a all the best U20 players and then having a world class team for 7 or 8 years.

Sorry forget the

Whats to stop Japan or Russia or England or France just buying most of a all the best U20 players and then having a world class team for 7 or 8 years.

England already have!! Except they seem to have a panchon for bad players...

Also read: French/ Italian recruiting in Argentina

Didn’t James Arlidge qualify by residency for Japan?

Yea he did Mick.

I have no problem with residency. I have no problem with a guy moving here and then deciding a few years later that he'll represent his adopted country.

I do have an issue with him being contracted to the nation from the day he arrives as a "project player" and his move only being sanctioned on the understanding that he can play for the country in future. Thats the issue.

Anyway, I never said i could stand the notion. I don't like it at all, but i can see it from the point of view of the IRFU.

They have to conduct themselves like a buisness, they operate within the regulations which allow this to happen. If their competitors are gaining an advantage by using the regualtions to their advantage then allowing 1 project player per province which could only yield a MAXIMUM of 4 players every 3 years, although realistically we know that it won't ever be anywhere near that figure, is not going overboard.

I don't mind what the IRFU are doing, but i think the IRB should take a look at the residency laws and extend the period beyond 3 years.

I think Darcy is due to be rested this week before the HCup games so we may get to see Sexton-McFadden-O'Malley. Fingers crossed.

I think Schmidt wanted to drop Darcy post RWC but when BOD got injured he wanted at least one expereinced guy in there to settle the ship and once it was bring in the other.

I think the plan would have been to start Sexton-McFadden-BOD against Montpellier. Then bring in O'Malley over a longer period of time.

as such I'd be happy to see O'Malley at 13 in our 6N games, more happy than seeing Earls for sure. WE shall see.

I think Toner's issue may well be aggression but he has definitely up-ed that since last season, I hope it continues because he could well end up featuring in Irish match day squads in the next 2 years.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think Schmidt wanted to drop Darcy post RWC but when BOD got injured he wanted at least one expereinced guy in there to settle the ship and once it was bring in the other.

I think the plan would have been to start Sexton-McFadden-BOD against Montpellier. Then bring in O'Malley over a longer period of time.

But what is this based upon. Did Schmidt say something?

Nope he didn't as far as I am aware.
I think I am basing it on natural progression, McFadden was much closer to breaking into the team than EOM last season, and Darcy was a lot closer to losing his place to BOD. Not water tight logic by any means but makes sense in my eyes

PS: I do think Mick has a point. We haven't seen McFadden at 12 for a sustained period of time yet for whatever the reason. Maybe he will thrive there with a few games there.

Yes maybe he will. He is the only real backup at 12 that Leinster have so its inevitable that he will see gametime. However he has certainly taken a few backwards steps.

I think it goes to show how quickly things can change in rugby that a successor to BOD was fairly remote 18 months to 2 years ago but now there are genuine options in EOM, McF, Earls, Cave, Bowe, Spence that could do a decent job there if required.

It was similar with tighthead prop position that Hayes had no cover (other than the potential of Buckley) while now most provinces seem to have genuine tighthead options that have the potential of stepping up over the next few years.

Outhalf was only ROG for years with little behind him and now there is Sexton, Keatley coming through, iHumph?, Madigan? who all have good experience at the provincial level.

Hopefully the same will happen with the second row.

I think it is pretty clear that Schmidt doesn't want O'Malley AND McFadden paired in the centres in the big games.

Agree Band, either we exaggerated the catostrophes or else we got lucky a few times in a row.

red_stag wrote:Yes maybe he will. He is the only real backup at 12 that Leinster have so its inevitable that he will see gametime. However he has certainly taken a few backwards steps.

Natural squad cover by position would have BOD, EOM and Macken for outside centre.
Cover for the inside position on depth would be set up as Darcy, McFadden and Sheridan.

Obviously throughout the season players, esp McF, can be shifted around for short term cover if experience is given priority over youth but the medium to long term progression would look like the above for the centre position.

Since Sheridan went down in the pre-season it does mean shifting people around for the inside centre position if you want to go beyond Darcy and McF. Pity Sheridan got injured at the time he did because for a youngster he is a fairly big unit with good strength, a decent step and a bit of pace -- but very early days.

I don't think the Project were brought in to help Ireland - if they were we have made a real hash of it - not one good enough so far and Strauss the only one likely to be.
I think they were brought in to address problems at the Provincial level.

However it is the fact that the only reason a player ends up playing for Ireland would be because enough notes have been waved under their nose - that bugs me big time.

Genuine residency ala Andy Ward is fine. He made a life style choice and has stayed here even after retirement. No problem with that at all.

The way it looks to me, is McFadden isn't actually good enough to replace D'Arcy, but Leinster still want to play him so they play him at wing, centre etc. They did this with Fitzgerald, moving him from position to position to accommodate people and he still doesn't know his position. Funny enough, Fitzgerald is younger than McFadden.

When D'Arcy does go, apart from McFadden, who are the options at 12 for both Leinster and Ireland?