Who will be behind the Hayemaker!?

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I said before that it would be a shame if Haye retired he still has so much to offer. Now it looks like Haye is back! Who will be behind him? I cant wait for this fight with Vitali I will be firmly supporting Haye. I think the British public should get behind him again we want a British heavyweight world champion dont we!? Haye will have learned from his last fight make no mistake about that and we all know he has the tools to beat Vitali who is old and slow now and far too easy to hit. My prediction? Haye to KO Vitali in round 6! Too much speed and power for Vitali and too much skill. I think Haye will bring an end to the Klichkos reign. Dont get me wrong, the Klichkos have been good champs but they are boring and have been ruining heavyweight boxing for far too long. Vitali should have stayed retired and let Wlad unify and Wlad should have retired after that the division would be so much better and the Klichkos reputation would be better. But I truly believe Haye is the man to do this now he is the most exciting heavyweight out there and has the charisma to get people back interested in boxing. I hope the British public and media realise this everyone deserves another chance and Haye deserves MASSIVE credit for coming back to take such a challenging fight. So in March who will you be supporting?? Will you be getting behind the Hayemaker again??

Azania I dont see where you are getting Vitali being so asy to hit from. He can afford to get more than Wlad but say for instance, he does as you say try to walk Haye down and Haye lands a big punch which hurts him. Do you really think hes incapable of switching styles and boxing behind the jab more? Or do you really think hes going to continue to walk onto shots?

I dont think hes easy to hit at all. If he knows his opponent cant hurt him he is more inclined to take one to give on than his brother is but in fights with Sanders when he did take some big shots he showed that he is willing to be more cautious. Hes not going to blindy walk onto power shots all night if he can afford it.

I cant see how anyone who watched Haye against Valuev could think Haye picks off Vitali with ease. If Vitali does adopt to come forward aggressively then Haye is going to be put under so much pressure he will struggle to get counters off and even if he does have success landing Im not sure he gets enough counters off to win the rounds against a Vitali who marching forward. I honestly dont think he has the talent to outbox Vitali easily.

azania wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:Azania, I had some modicum of sympathy for your one man crusade against the sepia loving bullies on this board but what you have just wrote makes you sound foolish. Poor show man! Poor show!

Styles make fights. Vit now is ready made for Haye whereas Wlad is not. Vit takes chances, Wlad does not. This fight will be very different from the Wlad fight. Wlad fights scared.

Don't see how this is so. Vitali K is not the out an out come forward slugger you seem to be implying nor does he take that many chances. He actually parries and backs off from his opponents shots and ties his opponents up in much the same way as his kid brother. The way he completely shut down Adamek as a threat is testament to his relatively risk averse strategy. He could have taken a few more shots off Adamek with probably little affect given Adamek's complete lack of power at heavyweight and creamed him out in about 6. Instead he just neutralised everything that Adamek threw and jabbed him into submission by about 10. I expect him to do much the same to Haye with Haye carrying a bit more threat yet losing the rounds comfortably through lack of workrate. Vitali barely loses a round and is always busy, he jabs extremely well, judges distance very well, has excellent footwork and throws a heck of a lot of punches for someone who's lumbering and slow as you put it!

manos de piedra wrote:Azania I dont see where you are getting Vitali being so asy to hit from. He can afford to get more than Wlad but say for instance, he does as you say try to walk Haye down and Haye lands a big punch which hurts him. Do you really think hes incapable of switching styles and boxing behind the jab more? Or do you really think hes going to continue to walk onto shots?

I dont think hes easy to hit at all. If he knows his opponent cant hurt him he is more inclined to take one to give on than his brother is but in fights with Sanders when he did take some big shots he showed that he is willing to be more cautious. Hes not going to blindy walk onto power shots all night if he can afford it.

I cant see how anyone who watched Haye against Valuev could think Haye picks off Vitali with ease. If Vitali does adopt to come forward aggressively then Haye is going to be put under so much pressure he will struggle to get counters off and even if he does have success landing Im not sure he gets enough counters off to win the rounds against a Vitali who marching forward. I honestly dont think he has the talent to outbox Vitali easily.

Doesn't have the confidence to put on such a performance for me either.

manos de piedra wrote:Azania I dont see where you are getting Vitali being so asy to hit from. He can afford to get more than Wlad but say for instance, he does as you say try to walk Haye down and Haye lands a big punch which hurts him. Do you really think hes incapable of switching styles and boxing behind the jab more? Or do you really think hes going to continue to walk onto shots?

I dont think hes easy to hit at all. If he knows his opponent cant hurt him he is more inclined to take one to give on than his brother is but in fights with Sanders when he did take some big shots he showed that he is willing to be more cautious. Hes not going to blindy walk onto power shots all night if he can afford it.

I cant see how anyone who watched Haye against Valuev could think Haye picks off Vitali with ease. If Vitali does adopt to come forward aggressively then Haye is going to be put under so much pressure he will struggle to get counters off and even if he does have success landing Im not sure he gets enough counters off to win the rounds against a Vitali who marching forward. I honestly dont think he has the talent to outbox Vitali easily.

Vit is easier to hit than Wlad. Always has been. Plus he is slower now than 2 years ago. Also he lacks head movement compared to Wlad.

How long ago was the Sanders fight? He has slowed down since then. Haye had the perfect game plan against Valuev to win. Against Vit, if he adopted the same style, he'll lose. I dont believe he is stupid enough to do that. Against Wlad I believe he went for the hail Mary because he thought Wlad was chinny and his speed would eventually catch up with Wlad. Not only was he wrong, he should now realise that he has to be equally elusive but more aggressive. I believe he will.

Admittedly a lot depends on how much Vit has deteriorated. From his last fight and the Briggs fight, I believe he has gone down a long way from Lennox fight. That Vit would have beaten Haye.

The Galveston Giant wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:Azania I dont see where you are getting Vitali being so asy to hit from. He can afford to get more than Wlad but say for instance, he does as you say try to walk Haye down and Haye lands a big punch which hurts him. Do you really think hes incapable of switching styles and boxing behind the jab more? Or do you really think hes going to continue to walk onto shots?

I dont think hes easy to hit at all. If he knows his opponent cant hurt him he is more inclined to take one to give on than his brother is but in fights with Sanders when he did take some big shots he showed that he is willing to be more cautious. Hes not going to blindy walk onto power shots all night if he can afford it.

I cant see how anyone who watched Haye against Valuev could think Haye picks off Vitali with ease. If Vitali does adopt to come forward aggressively then Haye is going to be put under so much pressure he will struggle to get counters off and even if he does have success landing Im not sure he gets enough counters off to win the rounds against a Vitali who marching forward. I honestly dont think he has the talent to outbox Vitali easily.

Doesn't have the confidence to put on such a performance for me either.

I think he does, unless he's going for the payday and risk getting more ridiculed when driving his Bentley.

Haye's elusiveness is borne out of hitting and running away - in that order - not hitting slipping then hitting and moving away. which is what he needs to do - he didn't slip the jab to land just barrelled in an raced out - I've not seen anything from him to show that he can be aggressive and elusive at heavyweight.

I think you could potentially criticise him for not getting Briggs out of there (although Briggs soaked up ridiculous punishment). But I didnt see much to be criticised in the Adamek fight. Adamek was a live contender, at home, and Vitali dominated him from the opening bell. Ok, you could say he could have finished him sooner, but to be honest he was coasting.

You seem to be basing alot on Haye not only adopting the right gameplan, but also having the ability to pull it off. While at the same time making Vitali out to be incapable of adjusting from a basic come forward strategy. I wouldnt be sure this is the case. In fact Im yet to even be convinced Haye is coming for anything other than a payday, although I would concede its a pessimists outlook.

ShahenshahG wrote:Haye's elusiveness is borne out of hitting and running away - in that order - not hitting slipping then hitting and moving away. which is what he needs to do - he didn't slip the jab to land just barrelled in an raced out - I've not seen anything from him to show that he can be aggressive and elusive at heavyweight.

Against the giants he isn't going to stand in the pocket and get bullied. That would bee suicide. He has to keep out of range. He has good head movement but needs to be more aggressive.

Then again this fight could be another Bowe Hide fight where Herbie was successful for a round and a half until Bowe landed that jab. The look on herbie's face was priceless. Like wtf hit me!!!

Manos I hate disagreeing with you but here I go again. It's not a pessimists outlook it's a realists outlook. He's taking on the better of the two and the one that has the iron chin not the one with the glass chin which Haye based his whole game plan around last time.

manos de piedra wrote:I think you potentially criticise for not getting Briggs out of there (although Briggs soaked up ridiculous punishment). But I didnt see to be criticised in the Adamek fight. Adamek was alive contender, at home, and Vitali dominated him from the opening bell. Ok, you could say he could have finished him sooner, but to be honest he was coasting.

You seem to be basing alot on Haye not only adopting the right gameplan, but also having the ability to pull it off. While at the same time making Vitali out to be incapable of adjusting from a basic come forward strategy. I wouldnt be sure this is the case. In fact Im yet to even be convinced Haye is coming for anything other than a payday, although I would concede its a pessimists outlook.

I dont think I am criticising him for not taking them out of there. Vit is very one dimensional. Good dimensions but better 3 years ago. Briggs made him look good and Adamek had no business being there. Adamek was never a good LHW let alone a HW. Never rated him especially as he struggled with Grant.

Vit doesn't adapt. He will rightfully be the favourite but that is based on his record to date. Ditto Haye being the underdog, but the fight is Haye's to lose in my opinion.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I think you potentially criticise for not getting Briggs out of there (although Briggs soaked up ridiculous punishment). But I didnt see to be criticised in the Adamek fight. Adamek was alive contender, at home, and Vitali dominated him from the opening bell. Ok, you could say he could have finished him sooner, but to be honest he was coasting.

You seem to be basing alot on Haye not only adopting the right gameplan, but also having the ability to pull it off. While at the same time making Vitali out to be incapable of adjusting from a basic come forward strategy. I wouldnt be sure this is the case. In fact Im yet to even be convinced Haye is coming for anything other than a payday, although I would concede its a pessimists outlook.

I dont think I am criticising him for not taking them out of there. Vit is very one dimensional. Good dimensions but better 3 years ago. Briggs made him look good and Adamek had no business being there. Adamek was never a good LHW let alone a HW. Never rated him especially as he struggled with Grant.

Vit doesn't adapt. He will rightfully be the favourite but that is based on his record to date. Ditto Haye being the underdog, but the fight is Haye's to lose in my opinion.

Az you've lost the plot mate what has Haye got that can trouble Vitali?

prettyboykev wrote:Manos I hate disagreeing with you but here I go again. It's not a pessimists outlook it's a realists outlook. He's taking on the better of the two and the one that has the iron chin not the one with the glass chin which Haye based his whole game plan around last time.

Ha. I'll have to disagree with you. Wlad is the better boxer of the two. As I said before, far too much credence is given to the Lewis fight and uppercut. That was near on a decade ago. Vit has never been the better boxer. Stronger yes. Haye will and should base his tactics on the fact that Vit is more durable.

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I think you potentially criticise for not getting Briggs out of there (although Briggs soaked up ridiculous punishment). But I didnt see to be criticised in the Adamek fight. Adamek was alive contender, at home, and Vitali dominated him from the opening bell. Ok, you could say he could have finished him sooner, but to be honest he was coasting.

You seem to be basing alot on Haye not only adopting the right gameplan, but also having the ability to pull it off. While at the same time making Vitali out to be incapable of adjusting from a basic come forward strategy. I wouldnt be sure this is the case. In fact Im yet to even be convinced Haye is coming for anything other than a payday, although I would concede its a pessimists outlook.

I dont think I am criticising him for not taking them out of there. Vit is very one dimensional. Good dimensions but better 3 years ago. Briggs made him look good and Adamek had no business being there. Adamek was never a good LHW let alone a HW. Never rated him especially as he struggled with Grant.

Vit doesn't adapt. He will rightfully be the favourite but that is based on his record to date. Ditto Haye being the underdog, but the fight is Haye's to lose in my opinion.

Az you've lost the plot mate what has Haye got that can trouble Vitali?

Come on. When have you ever known me to go with concensus? Its not what Haye has that will trouble Vit, but how far Vit has deteriorated. I reckon he is ripe for the taking by a boxer like Haye who can apply the neccessary pressure to steal a win. Haye may not be the hardest hitting HW, but his punches command respect. If Vit believes himself to be impervious that will be his undoing.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I think you potentially criticise for not getting Briggs out of there (although Briggs soaked up ridiculous punishment). But I didnt see to be criticised in the Adamek fight. Adamek was alive contender, at home, and Vitali dominated him from the opening bell. Ok, you could say he could have finished him sooner, but to be honest he was coasting.

You seem to be basing alot on Haye not only adopting the right gameplan, but also having the ability to pull it off. While at the same time making Vitali out to be incapable of adjusting from a basic come forward strategy. I wouldnt be sure this is the case. In fact Im yet to even be convinced Haye is coming for anything other than a payday, although I would concede its a pessimists outlook.

I dont think I am criticising him for not taking them out of there. Vit is very one dimensional. Good dimensions but better 3 years ago. Briggs made him look good and Adamek had no business being there. Adamek was never a good LHW let alone a HW. Never rated him especially as he struggled with Grant.

Vit doesn't adapt. He will rightfully be the favourite but that is based on his record to date. Ditto Haye being the underdog, but the fight is Haye's to lose in my opinion.

Well what are you criticising Vitali for in the Briggs/Adamek fight then out of curiosity? He won every round easily and was never in danger.

I would have said Vitali is less one dimensional than Wlad given he has an added dimension of being able to mix it and a better range of punching (less reliant on the jab/straight right combo).

Besides, the it may be that a solid one dimension for Vitali is more than enough to beat Haye, who to date hasnt really shown me anything to suggest he can win. I would accept that he may have the potential to, but I just havent seen any evidence of it so far.

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:Manos I hate disagreeing with you but here I go again. It's not a pessimists outlook it's a realists outlook. He's taking on the better of the two and the one that has the iron chin not the one with the glass chin which Haye based his whole game plan around last time.

Ha. I'll have to disagree with you. Wlad is the better boxer of the two. As I said before, far too much credence is given to the Lewis fight and uppercut. That was near on a decade ago. Vit has never been the better boxer. Stronger yes. Haye will and should base his tactics on the fact that Vit is more durable.

Vit is the better imo because he is more willing to engage when faced with someone who can punch unlike Wlad who in the face of any sort of danger goes into his shell and throws almost nothing but jabs. This makes Vit more dangerous and his excellent chin makes Haye stopping him almost impossible.

Az I genuinely don't see how he beats Vit. He isn't the type to go for broke even if he is well behind on the cards and going to lose like he did against Wlad. Happy to lose but stay upright. His head movement is good but he doesn't throw enough to outpoint Vitali who will throw jabs and straight right and keep him at range until he falls.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I think you potentially criticise for not getting Briggs out of there (although Briggs soaked up ridiculous punishment). But I didnt see to be criticised in the Adamek fight. Adamek was alive contender, at home, and Vitali dominated him from the opening bell. Ok, you could say he could have finished him sooner, but to be honest he was coasting.

You seem to be basing alot on Haye not only adopting the right gameplan, but also having the ability to pull it off. While at the same time making Vitali out to be incapable of adjusting from a basic come forward strategy. I wouldnt be sure this is the case. In fact Im yet to even be convinced Haye is coming for anything other than a payday, although I would concede its a pessimists outlook.

I dont think I am criticising him for not taking them out of there. Vit is very one dimensional. Good dimensions but better 3 years ago. Briggs made him look good and Adamek had no business being there. Adamek was never a good LHW let alone a HW. Never rated him especially as he struggled with Grant.

Vit doesn't adapt. He will rightfully be the favourite but that is based on his record to date. Ditto Haye being the underdog, but the fight is Haye's to lose in my opinion.

So Vitali is one dimensional and I suppose David Haye is multi dimensional? What apart from raiding in and out tactics does Haye do that makes him in any way better? I believe he was even outjabbed by Maccarinelli ffs. If he could slip the jab and land the one-two counter on Vitali the way Solis did for about 30 seconds before falling on his fat ass and mainatin that then he's got a chance. But seriosuly, Haye has in many ways been found out as a one trick KO artist who can either sneak wins against the talentless giants of the division or beat up mediocre fat light heavyweights but seeing him against the real quality heavyweights in which there are just two of in the world, well you must be watching a different fighter to me I reckon.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I think you potentially criticise for not getting Briggs out of there (although Briggs soaked up ridiculous punishment). But I didnt see to be criticised in the Adamek fight. Adamek was alive contender, at home, and Vitali dominated him from the opening bell. Ok, you could say he could have finished him sooner, but to be honest he was coasting.

You seem to be basing alot on Haye not only adopting the right gameplan, but also having the ability to pull it off. While at the same time making Vitali out to be incapable of adjusting from a basic come forward strategy. I wouldnt be sure this is the case. In fact Im yet to even be convinced Haye is coming for anything other than a payday, although I would concede its a pessimists outlook.

I dont think I am criticising him for not taking them out of there. Vit is very one dimensional. Good dimensions but better 3 years ago. Briggs made him look good and Adamek had no business being there. Adamek was never a good LHW let alone a HW. Never rated him especially as he struggled with Grant.

Vit doesn't adapt. He will rightfully be the favourite but that is based on his record to date. Ditto Haye being the underdog, but the fight is Haye's to lose in my opinion.

Well what are you criticising Vitali for in the Briggs/Adamek fight then out of curiosity? He won every round easily and was never in danger.

I would have said Vitali is less one dimensional than Wlad given he has an added dimension of being able to mix it and a better range of punching (less reliant on the jab/straight right combo).

Besides, the it may be that a solid one dimension for Vitali is more than enough to beat Haye, who to date hasnt really shown me anything to suggest he can win. I would accept that he may have the potential to, but I just havent seen any evidence of it so far.

To me Vit looked slower than normal. Slower than when he fought Peters after returning. For me if you are a boxer (as opposed to brawler/swarmer) foghts are controlled by the jab. His jab looked weak, pawed, slow and ponderous as if he had to think before throwing it. Wlad on the other hand, knows his chin is dodgy and as such had learned to utilise his height and reach far better than Vit. In short he is the better boxer.

I dont see Vit mixing it on the inside. He fights at range also albeit narrower than Wlad. Of course Vit's one dimension may be too much for Haye, but at this junscture, I see Haye as having too much for Haye if he chooses to adopt the right tactics. He has to mix it up as Vit has no inside game and to plant his feet more when doing his ambush raids and use his oft neglected jab when setting things up. Risky? Yes. But that is the only way he can win and I believe Vit has slipped too far to make that unrealistic.

Super D Boon wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I think you potentially criticise for not getting Briggs out of there (although Briggs soaked up ridiculous punishment). But I didnt see to be criticised in the Adamek fight. Adamek was alive contender, at home, and Vitali dominated him from the opening bell. Ok, you could say he could have finished him sooner, but to be honest he was coasting.

You seem to be basing alot on Haye not only adopting the right gameplan, but also having the ability to pull it off. While at the same time making Vitali out to be incapable of adjusting from a basic come forward strategy. I wouldnt be sure this is the case. In fact Im yet to even be convinced Haye is coming for anything other than a payday, although I would concede its a pessimists outlook.

I dont think I am criticising him for not taking them out of there. Vit is very one dimensional. Good dimensions but better 3 years ago. Briggs made him look good and Adamek had no business being there. Adamek was never a good LHW let alone a HW. Never rated him especially as he struggled with Grant.

Vit doesn't adapt. He will rightfully be the favourite but that is based on his record to date. Ditto Haye being the underdog, but the fight is Haye's to lose in my opinion.

So Vitali is one dimensional and I suppose David Haye is multi dimensional? What apart from raiding in and out tactics does Haye do that makes him in any way better? I believe he was even outjabbed by Maccarinelli ffs. If he could slip the jab and land the one-two counter on Vitali the way Solis did for about 30 seconds before falling on his fat ass and mainatin that then he's got a chance. But seriosuly, Haye has in many ways been found out as a one trick KO artist who can either sneak wins against the talentless giants of the division or beat up mediocre fat light heavyweights but seeing him against the real quality heavyweights in which there are just two of in the world, well you must be watching a different fighter to me I reckon.

Does one have to lead to the other?

Mac outjabbed Haye? I dont know what fight you were watching but it certainly wasn't the one I saw.

Azania, you lost me and probably anyone here when u said Haye has good head movement! Vitali will destroy him, regardless of what Haye does.

Haye gets bullied all night long and Vitali, unlike his brother will enjoy showing just how strong he is! KO in 6

JDandfries wrote:Azania, you lost me and probably anyone here when u said Haye has good head movement! Vitali will destroy him, regardless of what Haye does.

Haye gets bullied all night long and Vitali, unlike his brother will enjoy showing just how strong he is! KO in 6

That may be the case. I remember being one of a few here who picked Groves ot beat DeGale and I was called allsorts then also.

Vit has seen much better days. 18 months ago I would have picked him. Not now. He is slower and moves as though he's walking in wet cement. Hands down by his waits and very slow reflexes. Not a patch on Wlad who I said would beat Haye comfortably (no great shakes).

Haye's head movement is ok. His problem is a mental one. He relied on a bomb taking Wlad out. It didn't matter seeing as Wlad was the better all round boxer anyway. Not so much Vit who I believe the Briggs and Adamek flattered him rather than reflect his true and current ability. Its fine bowling over face first fighters, but a quick boxer will always give him issues. I reckon a ready Haye can and will do it.

Yes its a long shot. But I'm fairly confident Haye will win either by late KO or decisive (close in Germany) UD.

Total nonesense, but on the otherhand if his toenail has healed Haye may just do it!

Incidently, what makes u think Haye can hurt him let alone KO him?

I'll be behind Haye and I hope the fight goes ahead. Not only owing to the fact that he's a fighter who hails from closer to home but a Haye win would open up the division more. Does anybody really want to the see the dogma the K bros have engineered between themselves come to fruition and both retire with the titles but without a serious challenge? Of course they'll probably deserve it but I just want some drama personally, not the easiest thing to come by in today's HW division.

I'm all for drama, and yes a change would possibly be good for the division, but there are probably not many people less deserving than Haye, so I see it the opposite way and hope he is beaten convincingly, by someone who. Is genuinly streets ahead of him, rather change for changes sake!

I think all boxing fans should be behing Haye for a fight with Vitali it is what boxing needs. Haye is a quality and exciting heavyweight that takes on the biggest challenges. He provd himself at cruiserweight and then moved up to fight both Klichkos how can he be criticised for that? It seems some people just dont like him and will never get behind him did these people stop supporting Lewis when he lost??

Haye has even said he is willing to take a pay cut to fight Vitali this proves how serious he is and it is not about the money he knows he has the skill to beat Vitali this is why he is coming back imo.

Waingro he has now choice but to take a paycut, does not bring a belt to the table and no longer has Sky Box office behind him, is hardly an act of altruism on Haye's part it is a bitter reality of his failure to deliver value for money in his last couple of fights.

Or he knows he won't get anywhere near as much money this time round, as he isn't in demand or bringing anything to the table other than a name.

Look, I want Haye to take this fight and win as much as anyone, but cut the nonsense, you aren't going to fool anyone.

Waingro wrote:I think all boxing fans should be behing Haye for a fight with Vitali it is what boxing needs. Haye is a quality and exciting heavyweight that takes on the biggest challenges. He provd himself at cruiserweight and then moved up to fight both Klichkos how can he be criticised for that? It seems some people just dont like him and will never get behind him did these people stop supporting Lewis when he lost??

Haye has even said he is willing to take a pay cut to fight Vitali this proves how serious he is and it is not about the money he knows he has the skill to beat Vitali this is why he is coming back imo.

I agree. I did previously want Wladtali Klichko to win but you have won me round.

Go David.

Of course Haye will take a pay cut, after his awfuly weak performance against Wlad he can hardly say he is going to put PPV numbers up (there are plenty of people I know who simply wont bother this time) and of course there is teh small issue of him not being champ any more.

I think the opposite, I think a Haye win would be bad, I mean who wants a champ of his poor ability - people bang on about his so called exicting nature and his quality, but in his 5 fights at Heavy I aint seen any of that, so no I shouldn't get behind him, and no I most certainly wont.

I disliked the man before he started talking crap in lead up to the Wlad fight (before that woeful display) and I disliked him before he gave us Haye v Harrison, I think what boxing needs is Vitali to quite simply smash him into retirement and then we all pray he actually stays there this time!

Also please don't compare Lennox Lewis with this gobshyte, it really isn't remotely comparable

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Waingro wrote:I think all boxing fans should be behing Haye for a fight with Vitali it is what boxing needs. Haye is a quality and exciting heavyweight that takes on the biggest challenges. He provd himself at cruiserweight and then moved up to fight both Klichkos how can he be criticised for that? It seems some people just dont like him and will never get behind him did these people stop supporting Lewis when he lost??

Haye has even said he is willing to take a pay cut to fight Vitali this proves how serious he is and it is not about the money he knows he has the skill to beat Vitali this is why he is coming back imo.

I agree. I did previously want Wladtali Klichko to win but you have won me round.

Go David.

I've always preferred Vitamir Klichko.

I will still back Haye to win, except this time I think my expectations are sufficiently lowered, and I won't actually believe he can win. If we go back to the UCPL page when that fight came up, so many people believed in Haye. After being let down like that, I'm not surprised by the antipathy towards him.

Sodhat have said it before, I don't think it is the fact he lost, plenty of fighters have done likewise before. It was the nature of the defeat. Think all his bluster before and created a legitimate expectation that even were he to lose he would do so in a heroic, blaze of glory kind of way. Given how much he criticised the likes of Peter and Chambers think he carried an obligation to not go down as meekly and as timidly as they did. Given that is exactly what he did I feel the criticism he is receiving is inevitable and proportionate, particularly when one adds the toe excuse into the mix.

rowley wrote:Sodhat have said it before, I don't think it is the fact he lost, plenty of fighters have done likewise before. It was the nature of the defeat. Think all his bluster before and created a legitimate expectation that even were he to lose he would do so in a heroic, blaze of glory kind of way. Given how much he criticised the likes of Peter and Chambers think he carried an obligation to not go down as meekly and as timidly as they did. Given that is exactly what he did I feel the criticism he is receiving is inevitable and proportionate, particularly when one adds the toe excuse into the mix.

It's obviously different once you're in there. I'm sure the other challengers didn't go in thinking they would lose and certainly Kevin Johnson wasn't much less reserved with his mouth than Haye and didn't put in much of a performance. He's not a hate figure now.

Scottrf wrote: I'm sure the other challengers didn't go in thinking they would lose and certainly Kevin Johnson wasn't much less reserved with his mouth than Haye and didn't put in much of a performance. He's not a hate figure now.

He's also not British.

I stopped supporting Haye long before he lost to Wlad I must say

I agree rowley, if he had done as he said he would, and be aggressive and 'expose' Wlad, then getting knocked out and beaten would have been more acceptable than what actually occurred.

I always think in terms of football on these things, and how a stadium of fans would react. And if fans see a player not giving it their all, then he gets booed and derided. And so it follows to me that Haye gets the same from the masses.

I still think his oratory 'talents' will sway people into buying the fight and believing his hype, however...

rowley wrote:

Scottrf wrote: I'm sure the other challengers didn't go in thinking they would lose and certainly Kevin Johnson wasn't much less reserved with his mouth than Haye and didn't put in much of a performance. He's not a hate figure now.

He's also not British.

Point being? I'm just asking since when people expected boxers to follow up on their prefight talk.

If a boxer says "I'm going to knock him out", do you run down the bookies and lump on the knockout? He's selling himself and yes he should be criticised for not delivering but the reaction has been OTT.

I'm looking forward to this fight. I'm not a big fan of the heavyweights of any era with the exception of a few individuals but I do like the way the Klitschkos handle themselves and I believe Vitali would cause any heavyweight in the history of the sport real problems beating all but Ali, Johnson, Louis, Holmes and Foreman.

With this I genuinely believe Haye has next to no chance of winning this and very little chance of going the distance. Vitali has a mean side that his brother doesn't and probably can't afford to have because of his chin.

Hayes tactics for Wladimir were based around Wladimirs suspect chin and Hayes supposed concussive punching power. That isn't the case this time. He doesn't have the power to floor Vitali so how does he win. What can he do? It isn't in his nature to throw caution to the wind and go after Vitali he would rather lose and stay on his feet like he did against Wladimir and going for broke wouldn't be very wise anyway. The tactics of hit and run he used against Valuev won't work Vitalis far to good to get beat like that.

So what can he do to win?

The last year or so Ive found myself wanting to see Vitali decked. Got nothing against him, I think its just that he has been untouchable for so long now that it would be a massive shock to see him on the seat of his pants.

It would also be good if Haye managed to mug Vitali of his titles, as I would imagine Wlad would unify by beating him (again.)

Having said that Haye doesnt stand a snowball in hells chance (imo, doesnt have the quality), and I wont be supporting him in his latest money grubbing attempt. Klichko KO late I reckon.

Point being most people will not have read Johnson's pre fight words and so will not be aware of how far short he fell of delivering and also will have not shelled out their hard earned cash to watch him fall short.

I can see the argument that the reaction has been over the top but it is inevitable. I was not upset he lost, I always expected him to do so, but maintain if you deride the performance of others in failing to beat Wlad on the back of promising you are the man to beat him, particularly in such a graceless manner grief is inevitable, particularly if you compound this with a similar lack of grace in defeat coupled with a pathetic excuse about a poorly toe.

JDandfries wrote:Total nonesense, but on the otherhand if his toenail has healed Haye may just do it!

Incidently, what makes u think Haye can hurt him let alone KO him?

Why is it nonsense? Wlad is a better boxer than Vit and a far better boxer than Haye. Haye didn't and still doesn't have the skill to beat Wlad. Vit is a different proposition. An inferior boxer to Wlad, slower and not as cautious. If any boxer on this earth is hit right they will go walkabout. I can see Haye winning with Vit acting like a lamp-post in a hurricane and the ref stepping in. More likely if Haye were to win it would be on points.

rowley wrote:I can see the argument that the reaction has been over the top but it is inevitable. I was not upset he lost, I always expected him to do so, but maintain if you deride the performance of others in failing to beat Wlad on the back of promising you are the man to beat him, particularly in such a graceless manner grief is inevitable, particularly if you compound this with a similar lack of grace in defeat coupled with a pathetic excuse about a poorly toe.

To be fair, I don't think you in particular have changed your views that much or gone overboard.

I just feel that for someone to go from 40-50% or so picking him pre fight to comments like worst heavyweight champion ever, after a fight which went pretty much how I expected and how most of Wlad's challengers go is a massive swing of opinion. To become almost a hate figure based on not backing up his talk, with the precedent of the Valuev fight and with it being common practice against boxers is just a but much.

azania wrote:

JDandfries wrote:Total nonesense, but on the otherhand if his toenail has healed Haye may just do it!

Incidently, what makes u think Haye can hurt him let alone KO him?

Why is it nonsense? Wlad is a better boxer than Vit and a far better boxer than Haye. Haye didn't and still doesn't have the skill to beat Wlad. Vit is a different proposition. An inferior boxer to Wlad, slower and not as cautious. If any boxer on this earth is hit right they will go walkabout. I can see Haye winning with Vit acting like a lamp-post in a hurricane and the ref stepping in. More likely if Haye were to win it would be on points.

Presumably the fight will be in Germany, and given Hayes questionable engine and output I dont see how he is going to get a decision there.

Agree Joey, simply do not see Haye throwing enough to get a decision, seems his default setting at heavy against guys he sees some sort of risk in such as Valuev (more on size than talent) or Wlad is to be pretty cautious and maintain a very low output. If he does this against Vitali fail to see how he gets a point victory.

I think Hayes only hope rests on Vitali showing his age and having slid sufficiently to allow him to win.

If Vitalis durability has waned and his speed has slowed sufficiently then he has a chance. But from what I have seen he still has enough even at 40 to beat Haye.

There is also the potential for Haye having an extra gear or level and improved gameplan, but again this would be going off speculation rather than tangible evidence from what we have seen from his heavyweight career thus far.

Can i just add my remote control may go through the TV this time the first time Haye falls down as soon as Vitali leans on him.

I just can't see Haye knocking him out and just gassing in the latter rounds if he adopts a more active gameplan. At which point he'll be a lamb to the slaughter if he can't get on his bike due to being knackered

This fight looks like its going to happen. Only man i have ever seen since Lewis look like he may have the tools to beat Vitali is Solis, and he decided it would be easier not to train, injure himself and spend the next year as the king of Cuba.

I will support Haye if he shuts up before and goes in to win. If it turns into a paycheck extravaganza on the night then i will await a KO by VK with anticipation. After all, thats what the heavies are there for, or used to be.

manos de piedra wrote:I think Hayes only hope rests on Vitali showing his age and having slid sufficiently to allow him to win.
If Vitalis durability has waned and his speed has slowed sufficiently then he has a chance. But from what I have seen he still has enough even at 40 to beat Haye.

There is also the potential for Haye having an extra gear or level and improved gameplan, but again this would be going off speculation rather than tangible evidence from what we have seen from his heavyweight career thus far.

From what I have seen of Vit, I believe he has slowed down sufficiently to render him vulnerable against someone like Haye.

Haye wasn't gassing in the 12th against Wlad. He has another gear to go and Vit will give him the time to make the adjustments needed in the manner Wlad didn't.

He wasn't gassing, because he hadn't done anything in the previous 11 rounds

JDandfries wrote:He wasn't gassing, because he hadn't done anything in the previous 11 rounds

well he will have to up the tempo with the confidence that he wont gas.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I think Hayes only hope rests on Vitali showing his age and having slid sufficiently to allow him to win.
If Vitalis durability has waned and his speed has slowed sufficiently then he has a chance. But from what I have seen he still has enough even at 40 to beat Haye.

There is also the potential for Haye having an extra gear or level and improved gameplan, but again this would be going off speculation rather than tangible evidence from what we have seen from his heavyweight career thus far.

From what I have seen of Vit, I believe he has slowed down sufficiently to render him vulnerable against someone like Haye.

Haye wasn't gassing in the 12th against Wlad. He has another gear to go and Vit will give him the time to make the adjustments needed in the manner Wlad didn't.

Seems to boil down to three main points.

1. Vitali is sufficiently past it
2. Haye can pick the right strategy
3. Haye has the ability to excecute that strategy

You would appear to tick all three boxes in favour of Haye. I would be more pessimistic.

I think you are being a little harsh on Vitali in his last two performances. I got the impression he was coasting pretty easily and didnt a whole lot wrong. You can say the opponents flattered him and werent a fair representation of Haye which is ok but the same goes for Haye and in the context of the fights the only real criticism I would have of Vitali is not displaying a killer instinct and being content to coast in mid gear. For this reason I think theres a decent chance Haye hears the final bell. I didnt see enough to say hes sufficiently past it for Haye to win.

The next point is the strategy. I will give haye the benefit of the doubt here and assum he realises that he needs to do more than in the Wlad fight. If we put aside the potential for Haye to just show up for the money and assume he shows up to win then I think its fair to say he knows he needs to change tactics be more aggressive.

The last point is probably where I would disagree with you most. I just havent seen anything in any of Hayes performances at heavyweight to make me think he can beat Vitali even if both his tactics are right and Vitali is faded (unless badly faded and much less durable). Hes been a fairly one dimensional heavyweight. An low output ambush fighter. You say he needs to counter Vitali with his speed but Haye is not a good counter puncher for me. Hes not good at slipping punches, drawing punching and then getting off his own shots. He looks a bit ragged at times. Im in agreement with you that Wlads performance made Haye look worse than he is but I still think Haye doesnt have the tools, and have seen almost nothing to say he can adapt. As I mentioned above, a fighter can always surprise so I ont entirely rule out Haye being able to up his game, I just dont think theres much to go off to hold this point of view though.

The last point I would make is that I think its selling Vitali a bit short boxing and technique wise to assume hes just going plow headfirst into Hayes best shots. doesnt mind controlling range and making fighters come to him and I think hes too smart and too professional to throw tactics out the window just to try and knock Haye out. I think he will look to win the fight irst, and secure the KO second as his brother did. But like his brother I think an overly negative Haye might prove too elusive for a slowing Vitali who has never had great finishing ability to begin with.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I think Hayes only hope rests on Vitali showing his age and having slid sufficiently to allow him to win.
If Vitalis durability has waned and his speed has slowed sufficiently then he has a chance. But from what I have seen he still has enough even at 40 to beat Haye.

There is also the potential for Haye having an extra gear or level and improved gameplan, but again this would be going off speculation rather than tangible evidence from what we have seen from his heavyweight career thus far.

From what I have seen of Vit, I believe he has slowed down sufficiently to render him vulnerable against someone like Haye.

Haye wasn't gassing in the 12th against Wlad. He has another gear to go and Vit will give him the time to make the adjustments needed in the manner Wlad didn't.

Seems to boil down to three main points.

1. Vitali is sufficiently past it
2. Haye can pick the right strategy
3. Haye has the ability to excecute that strategy

You would appear to tick all three boxes in favour of Haye. I would be more pessimistic.

I think you are being a little harsh on Vitali in his last two performances. I got the impression he was coasting pretty easily and didnt a whole lot wrong. You can say the opponents flattered him and werent a fair representation of Haye which is ok but the same goes for Haye and in the context of the fights the only real criticism I would have of Vitali is not displaying a killer instinct and being content to coast in mid gear. For this reason I think theres a decent chance Haye hears the final bell. I didnt see enough to say hes sufficiently past it for Haye to win.

The next point is the strategy. I will give haye the benefit of the doubt here and assum he realises that he needs to do more than in the Wlad fight. If we put aside the potential for Haye to just show up for the money and assume he shows up to win then I think its fair to say he knows he needs to change tactics be more aggressive.

The last point is probably where I would disagree with you most. I just havent seen anything in any of Hayes performances at heavyweight to make me think he can beat Vitali even if both his tactics are right and Vitali is faded (unless badly faded and much less durable). Hes been a fairly one dimensional heavyweight. An low output ambush fighter. You say he needs to counter Vitali with his speed but Haye is not a good counter puncher for me. Hes not good at slipping punches, drawing punching and then getting off his own shots. He looks a bit ragged at times. Im in agreement with you that Wlads performance made Haye look worse than he is but I still think Haye doesnt have the tools, and have seen almost nothing to say he can adapt. As I mentioned above, a fighter can always surprise so I ont entirely rule out Haye being able to up his game, I just dont think theres much to go off to hold this point of view though.

The last point I would make is that I think its selling Vitali a bit short boxing and technique wise to assume hes just going plow headfirst into Hayes best shots. doesnt mind controlling range and making fighters come to him and I think hes too smart and too professional to throw tactics out the window just to try and knock Haye out. I think he will look to win the fight irst, and secure the KO second as his brother did. But like his brother I think an overly negative Haye might prove too elusive for a slowing Vitali who has never had great finishing ability to begin with.

That's exactly how I see it.

Maybe Vit was coasting, but even at his supposed peak against Lewis, he didn't possess footwork in par with Wlad. His jab has deteriorated sufficiently since his return.

We'll have to agree to disagree on your final point. I'll never say Haye is a class HW. That would be foolish. I believe Pov and Solis would beat him. But I think Vit is past it sufficiently that even a small change in strategy that Haye will have to execute will allow haye the victory.