Who will be behind the Hayemaker!?

by Waingro Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:26 am

First topic message reminder :

I said before that it would be a shame if Haye retired he still has so much to offer. Now it looks like Haye is back! Who will be behind him? I cant wait for this fight with Vitali I will be firmly supporting Haye. I think the British public should get behind him again we want a British heavyweight world champion dont we!? Haye will have learned from his last fight make no mistake about that and we all know he has the tools to beat Vitali who is old and slow now and far too easy to hit. My prediction? Haye to KO Vitali in round 6! Too much speed and power for Vitali and too much skill. I think Haye will bring an end to the Klichkos reign. Dont get me wrong, the Klichkos have been good champs but they are boring and have been ruining heavyweight boxing for far too long. Vitali should have stayed retired and let Wlad unify and Wlad should have retired after that the division would be so much better and the Klichkos reputation would be better. But I truly believe Haye is the man to do this now he is the most exciting heavyweight out there and has the charisma to get people back interested in boxing. I hope the British public and media realise this everyone deserves another chance and Haye deserves MASSIVE credit for coming back to take such a challenging fight. So in March who will you be supporting?? Will you be getting behind the Hayemaker again??

by Waingro Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:56 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
azania wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:I think Hayes only hope rests on Vitali showing his age and having slid sufficiently to allow him to win.
If Vitalis durability has waned and his speed has slowed sufficiently then he has a chance. But from what I have seen he still has enough even at 40 to beat Haye.

There is also the potential for Haye having an extra gear or level and improved gameplan, but again this would be going off speculation rather than tangible evidence from what we have seen from his heavyweight career thus far.

From what I have seen of Vit, I believe he has slowed down sufficiently to render him vulnerable against someone like Haye.

Haye wasn't gassing in the 12th against Wlad. He has another gear to go and Vit will give him the time to make the adjustments needed in the manner Wlad didn't.

Seems to boil down to three main points.

1. Vitali is sufficiently past it
2. Haye can pick the right strategy
3. Haye has the ability to excecute that strategy

You would appear to tick all three boxes in favour of Haye. I would be more pessimistic.

I think you are being a little harsh on Vitali in his last two performances. I got the impression he was coasting pretty easily and didnt a whole lot wrong. You can say the opponents flattered him and werent a fair representation of Haye which is ok but the same goes for Haye and in the context of the fights the only real criticism I would have of Vitali is not displaying a killer instinct and being content to coast in mid gear. For this reason I think theres a decent chance Haye hears the final bell. I didnt see enough to say hes sufficiently past it for Haye to win.

The next point is the strategy. I will give haye the benefit of the doubt here and assum he realises that he needs to do more than in the Wlad fight. If we put aside the potential for Haye to just show up for the money and assume he shows up to win then I think its fair to say he knows he needs to change tactics be more aggressive.

The last point is probably where I would disagree with you most. I just havent seen anything in any of Hayes performances at heavyweight to make me think he can beat Vitali even if both his tactics are right and Vitali is faded (unless badly faded and much less durable). Hes been a fairly one dimensional heavyweight. An low output ambush fighter. You say he needs to counter Vitali with his speed but Haye is not a good counter puncher for me. Hes not good at slipping punches, drawing punching and then getting off his own shots. He looks a bit ragged at times. Im in agreement with you that Wlads performance made Haye look worse than he is but I still think Haye doesnt have the tools, and have seen almost nothing to say he can adapt. As I mentioned above, a fighter can always surprise so I ont entirely rule out Haye being able to up his game, I just dont think theres much to go off to hold this point of view though.

The last point I would make is that I think its selling Vitali a bit short boxing and technique wise to assume hes just going plow headfirst into Hayes best shots. doesnt mind controlling range and making fighters come to him and I think hes too smart and too professional to throw tactics out the window just to try and knock Haye out. I think he will look to win the fight irst, and secure the KO second as his brother did. But like his brother I think an overly negative Haye might prove too elusive for a slowing Vitali who has never had great finishing ability to begin with.

Mate you think Haye is one dimensional!!?? I have read lots of your posts and think you are being very harsh on Haye. I know you are mainly into talking about old boxer so maybe you have not seen Haye fight that much??

Trust me he is not one dimensional he is the fastest heavyweight out there at the moment and has serious power and he is also one of the most skilled. The Klichkos are far more one dimensional imo all they do is jab this is why people find them so boring!

Vitali is far too slow for Haye he will use his speed and power to beat him. Vitali has a good chin but I think Hayes power will be too much by round 6 Vitali will have got hit too much and I think Haye will win by cuts like Lewis or else Vitali will have had enough like in the Byrd fight.

Hopefully we will get to see a rematch with Wlad then who is better than Vitali that would be a fight everyone would want to see to prove who the best heavyweght in the world is. I think Vitali will retire after Haye beats him he is too old now so he wont have many other options.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:00 pm

I want Haye to win for the simple reason I think having two brothers as Heavyweight champion makes the greatest title in sports look easy to win and devalues it in my opinion...

Should be the height of all impossible dreams for one of your family to say they were the heavy king but two at the sametime!!

No wonder the common sports fan think Boxing is a joke...

Hopefully Haye can clean this guy up...

by **oxring** Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:02 pm

Waingro wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:
azania wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:I think Hayes only hope rests on Vitali showing his age and having slid sufficiently to allow him to win.
If Vitalis durability has waned and his speed has slowed sufficiently then he has a chance. But from what I have seen he still has enough even at 40 to beat Haye.

There is also the potential for Haye having an extra gear or level and improved gameplan, but again this would be going off speculation rather than tangible evidence from what we have seen from his heavyweight career thus far.

From what I have seen of Vit, I believe he has slowed down sufficiently to render him vulnerable against someone like Haye.

Haye wasn't gassing in the 12th against Wlad. He has another gear to go and Vit will give him the time to make the adjustments needed in the manner Wlad didn't.

Seems to boil down to three main points.

1. Vitali is sufficiently past it
2. Haye can pick the right strategy
3. Haye has the ability to excecute that strategy

You would appear to tick all three boxes in favour of Haye. I would be more pessimistic.

I think you are being a little harsh on Vitali in his last two performances. I got the impression he was coasting pretty easily and didnt a whole lot wrong. You can say the opponents flattered him and werent a fair representation of Haye which is ok but the same goes for Haye and in the context of the fights the only real criticism I would have of Vitali is not displaying a killer instinct and being content to coast in mid gear. For this reason I think theres a decent chance Haye hears the final bell. I didnt see enough to say hes sufficiently past it for Haye to win.

The next point is the strategy. I will give haye the benefit of the doubt here and assum he realises that he needs to do more than in the Wlad fight. If we put aside the potential for Haye to just show up for the money and assume he shows up to win then I think its fair to say he knows he needs to change tactics be more aggressive.

The last point is probably where I would disagree with you most. I just havent seen anything in any of Hayes performances at heavyweight to make me think he can beat Vitali even if both his tactics are right and Vitali is faded (unless badly faded and much less durable). Hes been a fairly one dimensional heavyweight. An low output ambush fighter. You say he needs to counter Vitali with his speed but Haye is not a good counter puncher for me. Hes not good at slipping punches, drawing punching and then getting off his own shots. He looks a bit ragged at times. Im in agreement with you that Wlads performance made Haye look worse than he is but I still think Haye doesnt have the tools, and have seen almost nothing to say he can adapt. As I mentioned above, a fighter can always surprise so I ont entirely rule out Haye being able to up his game, I just dont think theres much to go off to hold this point of view though.

The last point I would make is that I think its selling Vitali a bit short boxing and technique wise to assume hes just going plow headfirst into Hayes best shots. doesnt mind controlling range and making fighters come to him and I think hes too smart and too professional to throw tactics out the window just to try and knock Haye out. I think he will look to win the fight irst, and secure the KO second as his brother did. But like his brother I think an overly negative Haye might prove too elusive for a slowing Vitali who has never had great finishing ability to begin with.

Mate you think Haye is one dimensional!!?? I have read lots of your posts and think you are being very harsh on Haye. I know you are mainly into talking about old boxer so maybe you have not seen Haye fight that much??

Trust me he is not one dimensional he is the fastest heavyweight out there at the moment and has serious power and he is also one of the most skilled. The Klichkos are far more one dimensional imo all they do is jab this is why people find them so boring!

Vitali is far too slow for Haye he will use his speed and power to beat him. Vitali has a good chin but I think Hayes power will be too much by round 6 Vitali will have got hit too much and I think Haye will win by cuts like Lewis or else Vitali will have had enough like in the Byrd fight.

Hopefully we will get to see a rematch with Wlad then who is better than Vitali that would be a fight everyone would want to see to prove who the best heavyweght in the world is. I think Vitali will retire after Haye beats him he is too old now so he wont have many other options.

Truly Waingro, I haven't laughed so much in a long time.

If he's the quickest, with serious power and one of the most skilled - why isn't he the best?

by manos de piedra Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:17 pm

Waingro I have a pretty high interest in both current and past boxing and tend to mix between the two so I wouldnt neccessaily say I favour one over the other. Ive watched nearly all of Hayes fights from Thompson onwards.

I think he is one dimensional as a heavyweight. Ironically quite dull also despite your repeated assertion he is exciting. More or less the same tactics each time. Stay on the outside circling and ambush in occasional bursts or flurries. It has worked against average or past it boxers with reasonable success and failed miserably against a top heavyweight.

Speed? Ok yes hes fast. But you need to be able utilise speed effectively and harness it. Hes not bas using his speed and movement on the backfoot. But offensively its pretty average. Power? yeah ok he seems to hit hard. Not devastating for a heavyweight though. Skillwise and technically hes just ok. A bit over reliant on single shots, occasionally ragged and of balance, not very good at countering, not very good workrate, no real evidence of adaptability thus far. All in all a fairly average heavyweight Waingro much as it might pain you to read this.

P.S if you think Im being harsh on Haye you might want to avoid reading any posts from JDandfries, it might upset you.

by Waingro Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:08 am

manos de piedra wrote:Waingro I have a pretty high interest in both current and past boxing and tend to mix between the two so I wouldnt neccessaily say I favour one over the other. Ive watched nearly all of Hayes fights from Thompson onwards.

I think he is one dimensional as a heavyweight. Ironically quite dull also despite your repeated assertion he is exciting. More or less the same tactics each time. Stay on the outside circling and ambush in occasional bursts or flurries. It has worked against average or past it boxers with reasonable success and failed miserably against a top heavyweight.

Speed? Ok yes hes fast. But you need to be able utilise speed effectively and harness it. Hes not bas using his speed and movement on the backfoot. But offensively its pretty average. Power? yeah ok he seems to hit hard. Not devastating for a heavyweight though. Skillwise and technically hes just ok. A bit over reliant on single shots, occasionally ragged and of balance, not very good at countering, not very good workrate, no real evidence of adaptability thus far. All in all a fairly average heavyweight Waingro much as it might pain you to read this.

P.S if you think Im being harsh on Haye you might want to avoid reading any posts from JDandfries, it might upset you.

How is Haye one dimensional? He has speed, he has skill, he has power and he also showed against Klichko that his chin was good he took some good shots off Klichko and was not hurt. The Klichkos are one dimensional all they can do is jab Why do you think they are so unpopular and the heavyweight division has been so bad since Lewis? Trust me it is the boring Klichkos that have killed it. When was there excitement and interest in it since Lewis retired?? Il tell you - it was when Haye moved into the division! The Klichkos cant even fight in America because nobody is interested in them their style is so bad to watch people want to see exciting heavyweights like Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis not guys with no personality just jabbing people. Yes they may be nice people and they are good boxers but boxing is about entertainment and people want to see excitement! They cant sell a fight at all this is why heavyweight boxing has become so boring. Peole not just in Britain but also America and the rest of the world should be getting behind Haye for this one and fingers crossed we get to see a new and more exciting time in heavyweight boxing!

by Scottrf Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:10 am

I think they are referring to his lack of adaptability when calling him one dimensional.

by Rowley Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:13 am

Again Waingro where can I see this excitement Haye delivers at heavyweight, should I rewatch the Harrison fight, maybe the Valuev fight? Will admit I was a little drunk when I watched them so may have missed the white knuckle excitement he delivered so please steer me in the right direction.

Also would be interested to know how many fighters in heavyweight history have consistently sold 50,000 tickets for their defences as the two fighters who apparently cannot sell a fight seem to do every time they step through the ropes.

by manos de piedra Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:30 am

Waingro wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:Waingro I have a pretty high interest in both current and past boxing and tend to mix between the two so I wouldnt neccessaily say I favour one over the other. Ive watched nearly all of Hayes fights from Thompson onwards.

I think he is one dimensional as a heavyweight. Ironically quite dull also despite your repeated assertion he is exciting. More or less the same tactics each time. Stay on the outside circling and ambush in occasional bursts or flurries. It has worked against average or past it boxers with reasonable success and failed miserably against a top heavyweight.

Speed? Ok yes hes fast. But you need to be able utilise speed effectively and harness it. Hes not bas using his speed and movement on the backfoot. But offensively its pretty average. Power? yeah ok he seems to hit hard. Not devastating for a heavyweight though. Skillwise and technically hes just ok. A bit over reliant on single shots, occasionally ragged and of balance, not very good at countering, not very good workrate, no real evidence of adaptability thus far. All in all a fairly average heavyweight Waingro much as it might pain you to read this.

P.S if you think Im being harsh on Haye you might want to avoid reading any posts from JDandfries, it might upset you.

How is Haye one dimensional? He has speed, he has skill, he has power and he also showed against Klichko that his chin was good he took some good shots off Klichko and was not hurt. The Klichkos are one dimensional all they can do is jab Why do you think they are so unpopular and the heavyweight division has been so bad since Lewis? Trust me it is the boring Klichkos that have killed it. When was there excitement and interest in it since Lewis retired?? Il tell you - it was when Haye moved into the division! The Klichkos cant even fight in America because nobody is interested in them their style is so bad to watch people want to see exciting heavyweights like Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis not guys with no personality just jabbing people. Yes they may be nice people and they are good boxers but boxing is about entertainment and people want to see excitement! They cant sell a fight at all this is why heavyweight boxing has become so boring. Peole not just in Britain but also America and the rest of the world should be getting behind Haye for this one and fingers crossed we get to see a new and more exciting time in heavyweight boxing!

This is pretty far removed from reality Waingro. Even a Hollywood scriptwriter making a film of Hayes career would be hard pressed to get away with this version.

1. Haye is one dmensional because tatically he fights the same way over and over as a heavyweight relying on the same way of winning. He is a good raw athlete (quick, athletic, i good shape) but this has not translated into a top class boxer because he lacks the technical ability to make the most of his natural athleticism. It well and good being fast and elusive on the back foot but ltimately pointless in terms of winning a fight if you cant translate it into effective offence. Haye has never been able to use his speed to get in and out quickly or slip a good jab for example. The Klitschkos are also one dimsional yes - I agree with you there. But that one dimension is significantly more effective for winning fights than Hayes is. Hence Wlad beat him comfortably. Theres no other reason. He was just a better boxer.

2. The Klitschkos have not killed heavyweight boxing. In fact they have probably double handedly kept some level of respect in it as the only two genuinely class boxers in it. The problem is the opposition cant challenge them.

3. The Klitschkos are not unpopular. They sell out massive venues consistently and are basically icons in Central and Eastern Europe. Haye going off this latest poll has only about a 60% support base in his own country. In Germany I imagine the Klitschkos would be about 95% or higher.

4. Yeah the Klitschkos have never cracked America but their style and personality (or lack of it) is only part of the problem. Americas lacks any heavyweights of their own, they house popular and exciting fighters in other more competitive divisions so the emphasis has switched to those fighters and divisions. If the Klitschkos were American you can bet things would be different.

Finally, simple question Waingro - what heavyweight fights involving Haye have been exciting?

Haye is not the solution to the the heavyweight divisions problems. Hes just an average heavyweight making the most of the circumstances to make good money.

by Rowley Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:45 am

It's an excellent post Manos and one you know by now I agree with pretty much word for word but I do fear you may have wasted a lot of time and effort.

by **88Chris05** Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:12 am

Christ, Waingro. Doesn't say much for your beloved Haye that, despite him apparently being the definition of a complete fighter he can't beat the 'one dimensional' Klitschkos, does it?

Can I ask, if you were either Vitali or Wladimir, would you be all that fussed about 'cracking America'? America has very little in the way of genuine Heavyweight talent for starters, and when you can get 50,000 backsides on seats every time you fight in Germany, why go across the pond when no realistic fights lay there?

Honestly Waingro, I've almost been hoping that you're not a WUM, but this continued championing of Haye without anything to back it up is really stretching my ability to believe now.

by Rowley Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:16 am

I have been in Germany for a Wlad fight and this idea they have no support or cannot sell is simply not supported by what I saw, they are all over the press and TV in the run up and massive stadiums are packed to the rafters and I can absolutely promise you it is not the quality of the undercard that draws people to the stadiums. We need to get out of this mentality that because America is not interested they are box office poison, the demographic of the division has changed, it is not the same thing.

by manos de piedra Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:18 am

Basically if you believe every word Haye says and take everything Haye says at face value the end product is Waingro.

Think it highlights the danger of listening to Haye personally.

by **88Chris05** Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:22 am

True, Rowley. You never see anyone berating Khaosai Galaxy for not defending in America - given that the majority of interest and top fighters for the Super-Flyweight division came from the Orient and occasionally Latin America, it made perfect sense to fight in the hotbed of interest.

No different to what the Klitschkos are doing now, as you say. They are the two outstanding Heavyweights of the last few years and are European. The majority of ranked contenders and other belt holders in recent times - Haye, Povetkin, Chagaev, Valuev, Adamek etc - are also European, hence they fight in Europe. Not sure why so many people have such a hard time getting their head around it.

by TopHat24/7 Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:58 pm

The Yanks only care about stuff they can win, hence a baseball 'world series' with only American teams in it and their biggest national sport, 'Football', also not being played at a competitive level or large scale anywhere else in the world.

America has no fighters capable of repectably challenging for the HW title so they have no interest in it, the K-bros are shrewd and intelligent enough to see this so don't bother wasting their time there when they can fill stadiums with German sheep and make a packet back home.

by Super D Boon Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:00 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I want Haye to win for the simple reason I think having two brothers as Heavyweight champion makes the greatest title in sports look easy to win and devalues it in my opinion...

Should be the height of all impossible dreams for one of your family to say they were the heavy king but two at the sametime!!

No wonder the common sports fan think Boxing is a joke...

Hopefully Haye can clean this guy up...

So then we'll have one brother and a mouthy con artist as heavyweight champions then - great!

by Super D Boon Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:13 pm

Scottrf wrote:
rowley wrote:Sodhat have said it before, I don't think it is the fact he lost, plenty of fighters have done likewise before. It was the nature of the defeat. Think all his bluster before and created a legitimate expectation that even were he to lose he would do so in a heroic, blaze of glory kind of way. Given how much he criticised the likes of Peter and Chambers think he carried an obligation to not go down as meekly and as timidly as they did. Given that is exactly what he did I feel the criticism he is receiving is inevitable and proportionate, particularly when one adds the toe excuse into the mix.
It's obviously different once you're in there. I'm sure the other challengers didn't go in thinking they would lose and certainly Kevin Johnson wasn't much less reserved with his mouth than Haye and didn't put in much of a performance. He's not a hate figure now.

Kevin Johnson is just mentally retarded, people pity him rather than slate him.

by azania Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:09 pm

Waingro. Give it up. I believe Haye will win. Not because he is a good boxer or whatever. I believe he will win because Vit has deteriorated sufficiently that I reckon the same Haye who turned up (used loosely) against Wlad can beat Vit. Vit doesn't have the same skillset as his brother and cant use his jab effectively enough.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:14 pm

Az what signs have there been of Vitali being on the slide? The guys not lost a round in ages. He absolutely dominated Adamek who actually has a better record than Haye below heavyweight with neither really having much in their heavyweight careers to get excited about!

What can Haye do that beats Vitali?

by Rowley Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:17 pm

prettyboykev wrote:
What can Haye do that beats Vitali?

L*L, imo Haye is quality mate. Klichko is boring and slow.

by JDandfries Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:19 pm

Haye is boring and fast!

by azania Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:20 pm

prettyboykev wrote:Az what signs have there been of Vitali being on the slide? The guys not lost a round in ages. He absolutely dominated Adamek who actually has a better record than Haye below heavyweight with neither really having much in their heavyweight careers to get excited about!

What can Haye do that beats Vitali?

Kev, I've been back and firth with manos as to how I reckon Haye will win this fight and the reasons why. I dont particularly want to repeat myself again.

Once again I'm in a minority. And once again I will be proven correct Yahoo

by azania Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:21 pm

rowley wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:
What can Haye do that beats Vitali?

L*L, imo Haye is quality mate. Klichko is boring and slow.

lol. pmsl. Rowsers did a jokie. quality mate.

by joeyjojo618 Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:22 pm

Although Id love to believe that waingro is real and just fell off the back of a turnip truck, he is definitely just on the wind up. His point blank refusal to spell the k brothers names correctly (despite being told about it a million times) is just one giveaway.

by Guest Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:24 pm

prettyboykev wrote:Az what signs have there been of Vitali being on the slide? The guys not lost a round in ages. He absolutely dominated Adamek who actually has a better record than Haye below heavyweight with neither really having much in their heavyweight careers to get excited about!

What can Haye do that beats Vitali?

Unfortunately not much...

Vitali is quick enough for the Valuev tactics not to work, Haye will have to be much more aggressive and active if he's going to win by hitting and running.

As far as fighting, all signs up to now show that Vitali is more than tough enough to take Haye's shots.

He can look crude at times, but Haye's best hope is that age catches up with Vitali.

by Scottrf Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:24 pm

Most posts for a proper article on the front page, he generates debate.

by **88Chris05** Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:25 pm

prettyboykev wrote:Az what signs have there been of Vitali being on the slide? What can Haye do that beats Vitali?

I'd have thought the answer was obvious, Kev. Haye is nine years younger. That means his modern training methods and nutrition are nine years newer and, presumably, nine years better than Vitali's.

by Super D Boon Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:26 pm

azania wrote:Waingro. Give it up. I believe Haye will win. Not because he is a good boxer or whatever. I believe he will win because Vit has deteriorated sufficiently that I reckon the same Haye who turned up (used loosely) against Wlad can beat Vit. Vit doesn't have the same skillset as his brother and cant use his jab effectively enough.

Detoriated so much so that he won every round against Briggs and Adamek. Oh yes, and his jab that he "can't use effectively enough" still managed to mangle Adamek with it.

Azania, you're turing into the resident clown.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:29 pm

azania wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:Az what signs have there been of Vitali being on the slide? The guys not lost a round in ages. He absolutely dominated Adamek who actually has a better record than Haye below heavyweight with neither really having much in their heavyweight careers to get excited about!

What can Haye do that beats Vitali?

Kev, I've been back and firth with manos as to how I reckon Haye will win this fight and the reasons why. I dont particularly want to repeat myself again.

Once again I'm in a minority. And once again I will be proven correct

Fair enough but here is my two pennies worth!

Haye based his whole game plan for the Wlad fight around his suspect chin and Wlad being cautious of his power. He can't do that with Vitali because he doesn't have the power to floor him and Vitali isn't as cautious as his little brother because he has a great chin and can take one if he needs to.

Vitali isn't on the slide if he was Adamek would have had a bit more joy than he did. Vitali has a mean streak that his brother doesn't possess which will make him throw more right hands than Wlad did who had far to much respect for Hayes over rated power. Haye does have the movement to get inside but he doesn't have the skills inside to do anything when he's in there anyway which he proved against Wlad by just falling to his knees. Hit and run won't work Vitali is no lumbering giant the guy is a World class athlete.

It will be a great achievement for Haye if he lasts 12 rounds.

by Rowley Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:39 pm

I wonder at what point people accept the evidence we see in the ring, which to my eyes does suggest Haye is really not that good a heavyweight?

by **88Chris05** Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:40 pm

rowley wrote:I wonder at what point people accept the evidence we see in the ring, which to my eyes does suggest Haye is really not that good a heavyweight?

You'll be waiting a while yet, Rowley. I still see people saying that Audley is, despite his paltry professional offerings, a great talent waiting to be brought to life.

by **superflyweight** Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:47 pm

I still see people saying that Audley is, despite his paltry professional offerings, a great talent waiting to be brought to life. .

What kind of institutions have you been visting lately, chris?

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:50 pm

rowley wrote:I wonder at what point people accept the evidence we see in the ring, which to my eyes does suggest Haye is really not that good a heavyweight?

It's a real head scratcher mate. All I ever her is people telling me he is going to do stuff we have never seen from him before. His heavyweight CV is poor his cruiserweight one is not to clever either. If he was American the people on this forum would be slating him like they did with Adamek. Imagine the reaction Wlad would get if he chose to fight Adamek who at least went out on his shield and had a go.

by Super D Boon Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:50 pm

88Chris05 wrote:
rowley wrote:I wonder at what point people accept the evidence we see in the ring, which to my eyes does suggest Haye is really not that good a heavyweight?

You'll be waiting a while yet, Rowley. I still see people saying that Audley is, despite his paltry professional offerings, a great talent waiting to be brought to life.

Audley to come back to life with an IBC world title win and a defeated Haye (after Vitali floors a braver Haye this time who has gone some way to redeeming himself after the Wlad fight) will set up the fight we've all been waiting for in 2012 - Harrison v Haye II. Can't wait!

by Rowley Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:51 pm

88Chris05 wrote:
rowley wrote:I wonder at what point people accept the evidence we see in the ring, which to my eyes does suggest Haye is really not that good a heavyweight?

You'll be waiting a while yet, Rowley. I still see people saying that Audley is, despite his paltry professional offerings, a great talent waiting to be brought to life.

It does appear my wait may not be over any time soon, just baffles me what people see of him in the ring at heavyweight to justify such faith, really do fail to see the "quality"

by Super D Boon Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:08 pm

rowley wrote:
88Chris05 wrote:
rowley wrote:I wonder at what point people accept the evidence we see in the ring, which to my eyes does suggest Haye is really not that good a heavyweight?

You'll be waiting a while yet, Rowley. I still see people saying that Audley is, despite his paltry professional offerings, a great talent waiting to be brought to life.

It does appear my wait may not be over any time soon, just baffles me what people see of him in the ring at heavyweight to justify such faith, really do fail to see the "quality"

Nevermind, hopefully Vitali will offer him something like 10% and Haye goes away forever. Hope springs eternal.

by Guest Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:42 pm

Hello

I haven't read the thread (can't imagine how this (non)topic could stretch to 6 pages) but I will say this.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Not in a million years, even if the wheel rotates for eternity. Not if the glaciers of Antarctica were to melt and then re-freeze; not if all the pigs and piglets in the world were to sprout wings and fly over consecutive blue moons until the hour is established; not if all of the seven pits of hell were to freeze over would I, emancipator, support that money-grabbing, oily, J-walking, smirking, foul-mouthed, classless, duplicitious, conceited, narcissistic, egomaniacal, belligerent, intellectually challenged, CHARLATAN.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh

I hates it, I hates iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

How dare he attempt to fool the money-paying public once again?

Who wants to see the grotesque sight of him pawing, slithering, and diving on his way to another defeat?

IT MUST NOT BE.

Oh minions, do not fall for this skullduggery.

mad

emancipator

by Rowley Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:48 pm

Nice post Emancipator, particularly enjoyed the use of the word duplicitious.

by Waingro Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:49 pm

Alot of people do not seem to like Haye now. I dont know why but I guess that is their opinion. Maybe it is becuase he lost Wlad but this happened to Lewis who is an all time great. He lost and many people stopped supporting him and said he was overrated but he came back to prove people wrong. I think Haye will do the same. Yes he lost but many great fighters lose at some point I think he deserves credit for coming back and trying again against one of the best heavyweights it is just a shame not more people are getting behind him.

I for one think he will beat Vitali and prove alot of people wrong they wrote him off but I bet when he wins they will get behind him again. I am firmly supporting Haye who is our best heavyweight he will prove people wrong by knocking out Vitali! All aboard the Hayemaker express!

Aint no stopping us now, were on the move!

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:52 pm

Like I asked Az earlier it's all well and good saying we should all get behind Haye because he's a Brit and the K Brothers are bad for boxing (neither of which I agree with btw). What I want to know is what does Haye have that troubles Vitali?

by Guest Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:55 pm

Waingro wrote:Alot of people do not seem to like Haye now. I dont know why but I guess that is their opinion. Maybe it is becuase he lost Wlad but this happened to Lewis who is an all time great. He lost and many people stopped supporting him and said he was overrated but he came back to prove people wrong. I think Haye will do the same. Yes he lost but many great fighters lose at some point I think he deserves credit for coming back and trying again against one of the best heavyweights it is just a shame not more people are getting behind him.

I for one think he will beat Vitali and prove alot of people wrong they wrote him off but I bet when he wins they will get behind him again. I am firmly supporting Haye who is our best heavyweight he will prove people wrong by knocking out Vitali! All aboard the Hayemaker express!

Aint no stopping us now, were on the move!

by **ShahenshahG** Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:57 pm

Has David Haye - outed himself as Waingro?

by **oxring** Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:00 pm

emancipator wrote:Hello

I haven't read the thread (can't imagine how this (non)topic could stretch to 6 pages) but I will say this.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Not in a million years, even if the wheel rotates for eternity. Not if the glaciers of Antarctica were to melt and then re-freeze; not if all the pigs and piglets in the world were to sprout wings and fly over consecutive blue moons until the hour is established; not if all of the seven pits of hell were to freeze over would I, emancipator, support that money-grabbing, oily, J-walking, smirking, foul-mouthed, classless, duplicitious, conceited, narcissistic, egomaniacal, belligerent, intellectually challenged, CHARLATAN.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh

I hates it, I hates iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

How dare he attempt to fool the money-paying public once again?

Who wants to see the grotesque sight of him pawing, slithering, and diving on his way to another defeat?

IT MUST NOT BE.

Oh minions, do not fall for this skullduggery.

emancipator

Nice post emancipator, I agree entirely.

Hows the ST job going up in Birmingham? (it was Brum wasn't it?)

by **HumanWindmill** Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:07 pm

Waingro wrote:Maybe it is becuase he lost Wlad but this happened to Lewis who is an all time great. He lost and many people stopped supporting him and said he was overrated but he came back to prove people wrong.

Difference being that most folks believed Lewis to have been better than the two men who beat him. Haye patently isn't better than, or as good as, Wlad Klitschko.

by Guest Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:16 pm

oxring wrote:
emancipator wrote:Hello

I haven't read the thread (can't imagine how this (non)topic could stretch to 6 pages) but I will say this.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Not in a million years, even if the wheel rotates for eternity. Not if the glaciers of Antarctica were to melt and then re-freeze; not if all the pigs and piglets in the world were to sprout wings and fly over consecutive blue moons until the hour is established; not if all of the seven pits of hell were to freeze over would I, emancipator, support that money-grabbing, oily, J-walking, smirking, foul-mouthed, classless, duplicitious, conceited, narcissistic, egomaniacal, belligerent, intellectually challenged, CHARLATAN.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh

I hates it, I hates iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

How dare he attempt to fool the money-paying public once again?

Who wants to see the grotesque sight of him pawing, slithering, and diving on his way to another defeat?

IT MUST NOT BE.

Oh minions, do not fall for this skullduggery.

emancipator

Nice post emancipator, I agree entirely.

Hows the ST job going up in Birmingham? (it was Brum wasn't it?)

Midlands; it's going okay. Move to a new job on Weds.

by azania Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:09 pm

rowley wrote:I wonder at what point people accept the evidence we see in the ring, which to my eyes does suggest Haye is really not that good a heavyweight?

At this stage of their respective careers, I believe Haye has enough to beat Vit. ANyone can look good against fighters who hang their heads to be hit as most of Vit's opponents in his comeback have done. But Haye is different. Admittedly he has to be more aggressive. If he does, he wins. Vit is too slow. Never has been fast but atthis stage I believe he has deteriorated enough for Haye to eek a narrow decision.

by azania Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:14 pm

88Chris05 wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:Az what signs have there been of Vitali being on the slide? What can Haye do that beats Vitali?

I'd have thought the answer was obvious, Kev. Haye is nine years younger. That means his modern training methods and nutrition are nine years newer and, presumably, nine years better than Vitali's.

Not really. Vit has been on the best nutritional supplements in the past. Wink

by azania Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:15 pm

Super D Boon wrote:
azania wrote:Waingro. Give it up. I believe Haye will win. Not because he is a good boxer or whatever. I believe he will win because Vit has deteriorated sufficiently that I reckon the same Haye who turned up (used loosely) against Wlad can beat Vit. Vit doesn't have the same skillset as his brother and cant use his jab effectively enough.

Detoriated so much so that he won every round against Briggs and Adamek. Oh yes, and his jab that he "can't use effectively enough" still managed to mangle Adamek with it.

Azania, you're turing into the resident clown.

You're entitled to your opinion. So do I. But why the need for the insult? Does it make you feel better? Pillock.

by azania Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:19 pm

prettyboykev wrote:
azania wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:Az what signs have there been of Vitali being on the slide? The guys not lost a round in ages. He absolutely dominated Adamek who actually has a better record than Haye below heavyweight with neither really having much in their heavyweight careers to get excited about!

What can Haye do that beats Vitali?

Kev, I've been back and firth with manos as to how I reckon Haye will win this fight and the reasons why. I dont particularly want to repeat myself again.

Once again I'm in a minority. And once again I will be proven correct

Fair enough but here is my two pennies worth!

Haye based his whole game plan for the Wlad fight around his suspect chin and Wlad being cautious of his power. He can't do that with Vitali because he doesn't have the power to floor him and Vitali isn't as cautious as his little brother because he has a great chin and can take one if he needs to.

Vitali isn't on the slide if he was Adamek would have had a bit more joy than he did. Vitali has a mean streak that his brother doesn't possess which will make him throw more right hands than Wlad did who had far to much respect for Hayes over rated power. Haye does have the movement to get inside but he doesn't have the skills inside to do anything when he's in there anyway which he proved against Wlad by just falling to his knees. Hit and run won't work Vitali is no lumbering giant the guy is a World class athlete.

It will be a great achievement for Haye if he lasts 12 rounds.

Briggs and Adamek made him look better than he actually is. They had no upper body movement and zero head movement. They came forward in straight lines and were there to be hit. Haye is an intelligent person.....maybe that's a stretch. He's no fool. He knows that if he goes in straight lined he#;; g KO'd easily.

I believe he'll use angles coupled with his speed. He gained the experience from Wlad and the style of the K's. Even better that Wlad is a superior boxer with under-rated speed and jab.

Vit WAS a world class athlete. Not any more. I saw several weaknesses in the Adamek fight in which Haye can utilise to win.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:19 pm

azania wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:
azania wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:Az what signs have there been of Vitali being on the slide? The guys not lost a round in ages. He absolutely dominated Adamek who actually has a better record than Haye below heavyweight with neither really having much in their heavyweight careers to get excited about!

What can Haye do that beats Vitali?

Kev, I've been back and firth with manos as to how I reckon Haye will win this fight and the reasons why. I dont particularly want to repeat myself again.

Once again I'm in a minority. And once again I will be proven correct

Fair enough but here is my two pennies worth!

Haye based his whole game plan for the Wlad fight around his suspect chin and Wlad being cautious of his power. He can't do that with Vitali because he doesn't have the power to floor him and Vitali isn't as cautious as his little brother because he has a great chin and can take one if he needs to.

Vitali isn't on the slide if he was Adamek would have had a bit more joy than he did. Vitali has a mean streak that his brother doesn't possess which will make him throw more right hands than Wlad did who had far to much respect for Hayes over rated power. Haye does have the movement to get inside but he doesn't have the skills inside to do anything when he's in there anyway which he proved against Wlad by just falling to his knees. Hit and run won't work Vitali is no lumbering giant the guy is a World class athlete.

It will be a great achievement for Haye if he lasts 12 rounds.

Briggs and Adamek made him look better than he actually is. They had no upper body movement and zero head movement. They came forward in straight lines and were there to be hit. Haye is an intelligent person.....maybe that's a stretch. He's no fool. He knows that if he goes in straight lined he#;; g KO'd easily.

I believe he'll use angles coupled with his speed. He gained the experience from Wlad and the style of the K's. Even better that Wlad is a superior boxer with under-rated speed and jab.

Vit WAS a world class athlete. Not any more. I saw several weaknesses in the Adamek fight in which Haye can utilise to win.

What are these weaknesses? He looked like the same old Vitali to me. Beat his man up and was never in any trouble.

Yes haye has speed and decent head movement but he had that against Waldimir who is the weaker of the two imo and he never looked like winning that fight. Your argument seems based on what Haye is potentially capable of but I fail to see how that trumps what Vitali is actually capable of as we have seen him do it.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:53 pm

Has anybody ever thought haye might just be after another decent last payday????

Thiink he may have thought he would be inundated with film and TV offers but has come to the realisation that the movie business etc isn't as easy to break into as first thought..

Wouldn't rule out another survival exercise.....

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