Who will be behind the Hayemaker!?

First topic message reminder :

I said before that it would be a shame if Haye retired he still has so much to offer. Now it looks like Haye is back! Who will be behind him? I cant wait for this fight with Vitali I will be firmly supporting Haye. I think the British public should get behind him again we want a British heavyweight world champion dont we!? Haye will have learned from his last fight make no mistake about that and we all know he has the tools to beat Vitali who is old and slow now and far too easy to hit. My prediction? Haye to KO Vitali in round 6! Too much speed and power for Vitali and too much skill. I think Haye will bring an end to the Klichkos reign. Dont get me wrong, the Klichkos have been good champs but they are boring and have been ruining heavyweight boxing for far too long. Vitali should have stayed retired and let Wlad unify and Wlad should have retired after that the division would be so much better and the Klichkos reputation would be better. But I truly believe Haye is the man to do this now he is the most exciting heavyweight out there and has the charisma to get people back interested in boxing. I hope the British public and media realise this everyone deserves another chance and Haye deserves MASSIVE credit for coming back to take such a challenging fight. So in March who will you be supporting?? Will you be getting behind the Hayemaker again??

Waingro wrote:

Haye deserves to be in the same level as Klichkos he will prove this by knocking out Vitali in March!

I'm sorry but that is just nonsense, a level someone deserves to be considered is defined by what they have acheived and who they have beaten and thus far Haye has come nowhere close to the record, longevity or acheivement at the weight of either brother, and there will be no need to even mention Haye in the same breath as either brother unless he beats Vitali should they fight and few if any would share one tenth of your faith in his ability to do this.

This has really gone too far now - I think this is what happens when you listen to what Haye says rather than watch him fight.

I'll try one last time though.....

Wain, given Haye's performance against Wlad (the weaker of the two brothers) what make you think

a) he deserves to be at their level, and...
b) he would KO Vitali.

Try and answer with some valid reasons, based on his performances at HW perhaps, rather than just what you have heard Mr Haye say.

[quote="Waingro"]

manos de piedra wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

joeyjojo618 wrote:I agree with Manos that Haye is relatively high amongst the chasing pack, but its pure conjecture seeing as he wont get in the ring with anyone. It really annoys me that he has dismissed the entire HW scene as bums for the past two years and people seem to take his word for it that he is a level above. When Khan bypassed british and euro level fighters and moved straight up to world level he got absolutely panned.

I would say Solis and Povetkin are no higher than 60/40 fights for Haye and I would much rather see Solis get a second crack at Vitali.

That's exactly how I see it, joey.

Can't fault manos' interpretation in isolation but in context Haye pales in comparison to either of the brothers and, morally at least, has done nothing to deserve a shot at Vitali. Notwithstanding Waingro's naive, nationalistic jingoism and clichés, Haye was utterly clueless against Wlad. He had no idea how to do the fundamentals such as slipping the jab and countering but was, instead, reduced to faffing around on the outside, shimmying and feinting ( without any purpose, from what I could see, ) and then leaping in with a smash and grab raid, often off balance and without planting his feet or turning his weight into his punches.

It was a poor, unambitious performance, and utterly belied this notion that Haye is exciting.

He was plain awful, pure and simple.

Haye deserves to be in the same level as Klichkos he will prove this by knocking out Vitali in March!

He does not deserve to be in the same bracket. What has he done to deserve it? He's only had 5 fights?!

talkingpickle wrote:

He does not deserve to be in the same bracket. What has he done to deserve it? He's only had 5 fights?!

And lost to the best fighter in those five, by a considerable margin, what makes the comment even more stupid is the guy he lost to is the guy whose level he deserves to be ranked alongside, staggering does not even come close to describing this kind of logic.

Even if he beat Vitali, would we still consider him in the same bracket if he walked away and retired? I don't think we could, it would reek of a smash and grab and Vitali, regardless of a single result has proved beyond doubt that he is a cut above Haye in heavyweight terms.

sodhat wrote:Even if he beat Vitali, would we still consider him in the same bracket if he walked away and retired? I don't think we could, it would reek of a smash and grab and Vitali, regardless of a single result has proved beyond doubt that he is a cut above Haye in heavyweight terms.

Not too many people have Douglas above Tyson in their rankings.

rowley wrote:

talkingpickle wrote:

He does not deserve to be in the same bracket. What has he done to deserve it? He's only had 5 fights?!

And lost to the best fighter in those five, by a considerable margin, what makes the comment even more stupid is the guy he lost to is the guy whose level he deserves to be ranked alongside, staggering does not even come close to describing this kind of logic.

Exactly!! An epic fail of logical thinking!

Waingro wrote:

JDandfries wrote:No suggestion that he is really any good at Heavy, no real excitment, despite what people might think, and most of all, he is no better than the likes of Sam Peter, Chris Areola, Thomas Adamek, Kevin Johnson, Eddie Chambers, etc etc, because he had performed just as meekly against a K Brother.

He is most definately after another pay day, and should really be fighting another contender or two first, the like of Arreola, Adamek, Dimintrenko, Povetkin, Solis, Hellenius etc, would give him perhaps some confidence, if he could win, and maybe some of teh public back on side if he could actually manage to go about it in a dignified way!

You think fat bums like Arreola, Peter and Chambers are better than Haye!?? Mate they are nowhere near his class there is no point for Haye to fight these guys beating them woul prove nothing.

Have to be honest from what I've seen of Arreola I think he might have the beating of Haye. He actually throws good combinations and looks sharp when he cuts down his weekly burrito intake, seems to have better boxing fundamntals than Haye who I think loses to Arreola, Solis, Chambers and possibly Adamek. Barely scraping a win against a talentless giant in a fight he didn't even deserve does not put him a level above the rest in my opinion. And I can't understand why you think he's better than those guys when he's done little to prove as much.

I'm not saying I'm some kind of fountain of boxing knowledge but Waingro and Azania know nothing about boxing judging by the drivel they come out with!

Yes he lost to Wlad I dont deny that it was a good performance from Wlad who I think is a quality boxer.

But I think Haye has the skill, speed and power to be in the same bracket I think he is alot better than the other guys in the division this is why I think he should be in the same bracket as the Klichkos. I think he will prove this by beating Vitali.

Guys like Arreola are far worse than Haye they cant even get in shape! They are not worth fighting imo what is the point?

The top 3 heavyweights are the two brothers and Haye. Haye held the other belt until recently yes he lost it to Wlad but it showed he was number 2 or 3 and was a world champion.

I think Haye will prove alot of people wrong by beating Vitali tbh most people said he would just retire and not fight Vitali but he has already proved them wrong by coming back and offering to take a pay cut to fight Vitali. Some people dont like Haye that is their opinion but I think he will prove alot of people wrong when he beats Vitali make no mistake this will be a big fight between two of the best heavyweights in the world and I am looking forward to it.

Aint no stoppig us now!!

Solis would beat Haye. I cant see how Adamek does. Or Chambers. Arreola may have a chance but not much. As for my boxing knowledge, thankfully its ok. Moreimportantly I understand styles and how they can have an effect on the outcome on matches. I dont just go by their last fight but take a general overview before coming to my decision. Hence I see Haye beating Vit.

With respect, azania, Haye will have to throw more than an average of a dozen punches per round to do so. He hasn't, as far as I'm aware, managed this as a heavyweight, up to now - why are you so sure that his throwing occasional bombs from the outside technique will be sufficient for him to gain the decision which surely represents his only chance of victory against Vitali?

azania wrote:Solis would beat Haye. I cant see how Adamek does. Or Chambers. Arreola may have a chance but not much. As for my boxing knowledge, thankfully its ok. Moreimportantly I understand styles and how they can have an effect on the outcome on matches. I dont just go by their last fight but take a general overview before coming to my decision. Hence I see Haye beating Vit.

Vitali has dominated smaller men which Haye is and Haye has done nothing at heavyweight to suggest he is in the class as Vitali.

Trouble is you can't sensibly back upreasons why you take such a decision. You made two distinct "observations" about Vitali that I don't think you can back up. Those being:

a) Vitali has detoriated
b) Vitali's jab doesn't hold up well

I can't see how in a) Vitali has deteriorated as he won every round in about 20 in his last two fights. And b) Vitali smashed up Adamek (a top 10 heavyweight) pretty much with the jab alone.

Super D Boon wrote:Trouble is you can't sensibly back upreasons why you take such a decision. You made two distinct "observations" about Vitali that I don't think you can back up. Those being:

a) Vitali has detoriated
b) Vitali's jab doesn't hold up well

I can't see how in a) Vitali has deteriorated as he won every round in about 20 in his last two fights. And b) Vitali smashed up Adamek (a top 10 heavyweight) pretty much with the jab alone.

I;'ve spent the past 3 pages backing up my reasons. More intelligent have read them and understood them, disagreed with them in a mannered way and moved on.

You on the other hand........

I agree with azania, Vitali is too slow for Haye who is far too quick for him and will use his speed and power to take advantage. Vitali is also far easier to hit than Wlad and has a worse jab Haye will not hve to fight on the backfoot and will attack more and land power shots on Vitali who will get knocked out in round 6 or 7 after taking too much punishment from the Hayemaker.

he did and then was being called a quitter by a lot of people including the wonderful broadcast team at HBO. Who stupid did they turn out to look?

azania wrote:Solis would beat Haye. I cant see how Adamek does. Or Chambers. Arreola may have a chance but not much. As for my boxing knowledge, thankfully its ok. Moreimportantly I understand styles and how they can have an effect on the outcome on matches. I dont just go by their last fight but take a general overview before coming to my decision. Hence I see Haye beating Vit.

Go by his last 5 fights then, either way, he has done nothing at Heavy to show he can beat Vitali - as a bare minimum he will seriously need to up his work rate from his previous 5 fights and I don't think he has the stamina to do it!

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:Solis would beat Haye. I cant see how Adamek does. Or Chambers. Arreola may have a chance but not much. As for my boxing knowledge, thankfully its ok. Moreimportantly I understand styles and how they can have an effect on the outcome on matches. I dont just go by their last fight but take a general overview before coming to my decision. Hence I see Haye beating Vit.

Vitali has dominated smaller men which Haye is and Haye has done nothing at heavyweight to suggest he is in the class as Vitali.

I know he has. But the difference is that he is not as good as he was. Even in the Adamek fight, I saw glaring signs that he is not the guy he was 2 years ago.

I believe Haye showed enough in the Wlad fight that small adaptation to his gameplan would be sufficient to beat Vit. Wlad has an awesome ramrod jad which is not only a range finder but keeps others at bay. Vit's jab is no-where as good. Vit may be tougher but he is less skilled than Wlad and at this stage of his career is there for the taking for a boxer like Haye.

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:Solis would beat Haye. I cant see how Adamek does. Or Chambers. Arreola may have a chance but not much. As for my boxing knowledge, thankfully its ok. Moreimportantly I understand styles and how they can have an effect on the outcome on matches. I dont just go by their last fight but take a general overview before coming to my decision. Hence I see Haye beating Vit.

Vitali has dominated smaller men which Haye is and Haye has done nothing at heavyweight to suggest he is in the class as Vitali.

I know he has. But the difference is that he is not as good as he was. Even in the Adamek fight, I saw glaring signs that he is not the guy he was 2 years ago.

I believe Haye showed enough in the Wlad fight that small adaptation to his gameplan would be sufficient to beat Vit. Wlad has an awesome ramrod jad which is not only a range finder but keeps others at bay. Vit's jab is no-where as good. Vit may be tougher but he is less skilled than Wlad and at this stage of his career is there for the taking for a boxer like Haye.

I never seen that he wasn't as good as he was two years ago but fair enough every one has their own opinions on that. I seen him dominate a smaller man and stop him comfortably.

Maybe his jab doesn't have the authority of Wlads but Wlad has the best jab in boxing and one of the best in the history of the division. Vitali is however much more willing to throw the right hand because he can whereas his brother can't afford to. Haye was allowed to posture and pose on the outside because he only had to watch for the jab with Vitali it's different he will bring the right hand into play from the start and that makes it a much harder task for Haye than Wlad was imo.

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:Solis would beat Haye. I cant see how Adamek does. Or Chambers. Arreola may have a chance but not much. As for my boxing knowledge, thankfully its ok. Moreimportantly I understand styles and how they can have an effect on the outcome on matches. I dont just go by their last fight but take a general overview before coming to my decision. Hence I see Haye beating Vit.

Vitali has dominated smaller men which Haye is and Haye has done nothing at heavyweight to suggest he is in the class as Vitali.

I know he has. But the difference is that he is not as good as he was. Even in the Adamek fight, I saw glaring signs that he is not the guy he was 2 years ago.

I believe Haye showed enough in the Wlad fight that small adaptation to his gameplan would be sufficient to beat Vit. Wlad has an awesome ramrod jad which is not only a range finder but keeps others at bay. Vit's jab is no-where as good. Vit may be tougher but he is less skilled than Wlad and at this stage of his career is there for the taking for a boxer like Haye.

So you're picking Haye based upon the presumption that he would be able to adapt his gameplan - the evidence for this adaptability, is however, sadly lacking.

I would entirely agree and say that Haye would stop Vitali in 10 if I saw the ability to move laterally, slip a punch whilst using the jab to get inside, work the body and keep moving to stop Vit planting his fight.

Haye hasn't ever shown that ability, so we're not picking him. Simples.

Oxy

Yes I am. If Haye fights in the same manner he did against Wlad, he'll lose. I believe he knows that anyway. Plus the extra factor is that Vit is very different to Wlad in terms of boxing skills. Haye will have more openings and be able to utilise his speed with Vit as opposed to Wlad. They have their similarities ie tall, jab, right cross. But Vit is markedly slower and Haye should be able to capitalise.

Going by his Audley 'fight' and Valuev fight it seasy to say he cant. Judging by his Wlad fight that may be even more definite. But that takes away from Wlad who has the beating of Haye no matter what.

Haye showed more adaptability at CW and its no great shakes for him to do somethng similar at HW.

He can and will. And he'll win. Simples. Cant wait for you all to crawl and apologise

prettyboykev wrote:he did and then was being called a quitter by a lot of people including the wonderful broadcast team at HBO. Who stupid did they turn out to look?

He did quit.. Even Audley continued with a damaged shoulder. So did Danny Williams. The long and short of it is that Vit bottled it.

David Haye is still one of my favourite fighters and I'll be cheering him on. I just hope he pulls off the upset.

azania wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:Trouble is you can't sensibly back upreasons why you take such a decision. You made two distinct "observations" about Vitali that I don't think you can back up. Those being:

a) Vitali has detoriated
b) Vitali's jab doesn't hold up well

I can't see how in a) Vitali has deteriorated as he won every round in about 20 in his last two fights. And b) Vitali smashed up Adamek (a top 10 heavyweight) pretty much with the jab alone.

I;'ve spent the past 3 pages backing up my reasons. More intelligent have read them and understood them, disagreed with them in a mannered way and moved on.

You on the other hand........

Oh do stop it! You're giving me bellyache!

You've been slated by all and sundry for your outlandish opinions backed up by complete nonsense!

alma wrote:I don't think Vitali has lost any rounds since the Lewis fight has he? He won basically every round against Byrd too I think before the injury

He hasn't been in a tough fight since then. He fights the less skilled but stronger guys whilst Wlad deals with the more skilled fighters.

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:he did and then was being called a quitter by a lot of people including the wonderful broadcast team at HBO. Who stupid did they turn out to look?

He did quit.. Even Audley continued with a damaged shoulder. So did Danny Williams. The long and short of it is that Vit bottled it.

Mate he was well ahead on the scorecard with one round to go why would he quit? If he lacked bottle why did he take on Lewis at short notice? He couldn't continue injuries happen in sport even with modern training techniques, protein shakes and cereal bars!

azania wrote:

alma wrote:I don't think Vitali has lost any rounds since the Lewis fight has he? He won basically every round against Byrd too I think before the injury

He hasn't been in a tough fight since then. He fights the less skilled but stronger guys whilst Wlad deals with the more skilled fighters.

Really because he fought Lewis after that?

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:Solis would beat Haye. I cant see how Adamek does. Or Chambers. Arreola may have a chance but not much. As for my boxing knowledge, thankfully its ok. Moreimportantly I understand styles and how they can have an effect on the outcome on matches. I dont just go by their last fight but take a general overview before coming to my decision. Hence I see Haye beating Vit.

Vitali has dominated smaller men which Haye is and Haye has done nothing at heavyweight to suggest he is in the class as Vitali.

I know he has. But the difference is that he is not as good as he was. Even in the Adamek fight, I saw glaring signs that he is not the guy he was 2 years ago.

I believe Haye showed enough in the Wlad fight that small adaptation to his gameplan would be sufficient to beat Vit. Wlad has an awesome ramrod jad which is not only a range finder but keeps others at bay. Vit's jab is no-where as good. Vit may be tougher but he is less skilled than Wlad and at this stage of his career is there for the taking for a boxer like Haye.

So what were those 'glaring' signs?

Was it that he basically anihalated a guy, who has a better crusierweight record, and a better HW record than Haye by using only his 'average jab'?

Was it that he didn't lose a round, thats probably about 90 rounds in a row now he has won?

Or was it that his smaller much faster opponent was too quick for him and led him a merry dance?

Come on what was it?

azania wrote:Oxy

Yes I am. If Haye fights in the same manner he did against Wlad, he'll lose. I believe he knows that anyway. Plus the extra factor is that Vit is very different to Wlad in terms of boxing skills. Haye will have more openings and be able to utilise his speed with Vit as opposed to Wlad. They have their similarities ie tall, jab, right cross. But Vit is markedly slower and Haye should be able to capitalise.

Going by his Audley 'fight' and Valuev fight it seasy to say he cant. Judging by his Wlad fight that may be even more definite. But that takes away from Wlad who has the beating of Haye no matter what.

Haye showed more adaptability at CW and its no great shakes for him to do somethng similar at HW.

He can and will. And he'll win. Simples. Cant wait for you all to crawl and apologise

If you're correct I'll give you credit.

Fundamentally, as it happens, you agree with me. Were Haye able to adapt, move, fight his way onto the inside and out again without shipping damage, he'll win.

Course, as you also accept, he's never shown that he's capable of doing that at HW - and not really at cruiserweight either.

Have to say JD, I think I missed those "glaring signs" as well. Maybe Azania can tell us what they were......

Super D Boon wrote:Have to say JD, I think I missed those "glaring signs" as well. Maybe Azania can tell us what they were......

I really hope he at least tries to, but it will probably just be, his jab is rubbish and he is slow..... which certainly didn't look the case against Adamek, who you would have thought would be much quicker than Vit
?

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:he did and then was being called a quitter by a lot of people including the wonderful broadcast team at HBO. Who stupid did they turn out to look?

He did quit.. Even Audley continued with a damaged shoulder. So did Danny Williams. The long and short of it is that Vit bottled it.

Mate he was well ahead on the scorecard with one round to go why would he quit? If he lacked bottle why did he take on Lewis at short notice? He couldn't continue injuries happen in sport even with modern training techniques, protein shakes and cereal bars!

It doesn't matter how far ahead he was or who he fought after. The facts remains that he quit on his stool. Audley didn't and neither did Williams. I recall Colin McMillam fighting with a dislocated shoulder also. He had a torn rotator cuff. He still has another arm. Even one handed he could have won.

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:he did and then was being called a quitter by a lot of people including the wonderful broadcast team at HBO. Who stupid did they turn out to look?

He did quit.. Even Audley continued with a damaged shoulder. So did Danny Williams. The long and short of it is that Vit bottled it.

Mate he was well ahead on the scorecard with one round to go why would he quit? If he lacked bottle why did he take on Lewis at short notice? He couldn't continue injuries happen in sport even with modern training techniques, protein shakes and cereal bars!

It doesn't matter how far ahead he was or who he fought after. The facts remains that he quit on his stool. Audley didn't and neither did Williams. I recall Colin McMillam fighting with a dislocated shoulder also. He had a torn rotator cuff. He still has another arm. Even one handed he could have won.

Obviously it was to bad an injury to continue. Like I said if he lacked bottle he wouldn't have fought Lewis at short notice and he wouldn't have kept fighting with those cuts.

JDandfries wrote:

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:Solis would beat Haye. I cant see how Adamek does. Or Chambers. Arreola may have a chance but not much. As for my boxing knowledge, thankfully its ok. Moreimportantly I understand styles and how they can have an effect on the outcome on matches. I dont just go by their last fight but take a general overview before coming to my decision. Hence I see Haye beating Vit.

Vitali has dominated smaller men which Haye is and Haye has done nothing at heavyweight to suggest he is in the class as Vitali.

I know he has. But the difference is that he is not as good as he was. Even in the Adamek fight, I saw glaring signs that he is not the guy he was 2 years ago.

I believe Haye showed enough in the Wlad fight that small adaptation to his gameplan would be sufficient to beat Vit. Wlad has an awesome ramrod jad which is not only a range finder but keeps others at bay. Vit's jab is no-where as good. Vit may be tougher but he is less skilled than Wlad and at this stage of his career is there for the taking for a boxer like Haye.

So what were those 'glaring' signs?

Was it that he basically anihalated a guy, who has a better crusierweight record, and a better HW record than Haye by using only his 'average jab'?

Was it that he didn't lose a round, thats probably about 90 rounds in a row now he has won?

Or was it that his smaller much faster opponent was too quick for him and led him a merry dance?

Come on what was it?

I am a firm believer that for a tall rangy fighter the best weapon he has is the jab. Take that away then you take his trump card. Vit has never had the best jab. It was always something to keep the opponent away as opposed to being an offensive weapon. Plus it is slow, deliberate and lacking snap.

But the obvious flaw in his game which is more glaring is that his chin is high up in the air. Keeping his hands down is an error. Plus the added fact that he fights closer to his opponent than Wlad makes his succeptible to right hooks all night. His reflexes have slowed a lot also and he doesn't get away from punches as he once did. Solis for 30 seconds showed that speed could hurt Vit. Of course we wont know what may have happened but if Vit beats Haye, I reckon they'll hand Solis to Wlad.

He was supposed to be fighting on the Lewis/Johnson undercard so was un full training. Its not as though he was dragged of the beach to fight lewis. Lewis prepared for Johnson and took it easy. A fit motivated Lewis would have taken Vit to school.

Lewis TKO6 Vitali.

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:Oxy

Yes I am. If Haye fights in the same manner he did against Wlad, he'll lose. I believe he knows that anyway. Plus the extra factor is that Vit is very different to Wlad in terms of boxing skills. Haye will have more openings and be able to utilise his speed with Vit as opposed to Wlad. They have their similarities ie tall, jab, right cross. But Vit is markedly slower and Haye should be able to capitalise.

Going by his Audley 'fight' and Valuev fight it seasy to say he cant. Judging by his Wlad fight that may be even more definite. But that takes away from Wlad who has the beating of Haye no matter what.

Haye showed more adaptability at CW and its no great shakes for him to do somethng similar at HW.

He can and will. And he'll win. Simples. Cant wait for you all to crawl and apologise

If you're correct I'll give you credit.

Fundamentally, as it happens, you agree with me. Were Haye able to adapt, move, fight his way onto the inside and out again without shipping damage, he'll win.

Course, as you also accept, he's never shown that he's capable of doing that at HW - and not really at cruiserweight either.

I await your credit.

I agree with you Time for a break then.

azania wrote:

JDandfries wrote:

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:Solis would beat Haye. I cant see how Adamek does. Or Chambers. Arreola may have a chance but not much. As for my boxing knowledge, thankfully its ok. Moreimportantly I understand styles and how they can have an effect on the outcome on matches. I dont just go by their last fight but take a general overview before coming to my decision. Hence I see Haye beating Vit.

Vitali has dominated smaller men which Haye is and Haye has done nothing at heavyweight to suggest he is in the class as Vitali.

I know he has. But the difference is that he is not as good as he was. Even in the Adamek fight, I saw glaring signs that he is not the guy he was 2 years ago.

I believe Haye showed enough in the Wlad fight that small adaptation to his gameplan would be sufficient to beat Vit. Wlad has an awesome ramrod jad which is not only a range finder but keeps others at bay. Vit's jab is no-where as good. Vit may be tougher but he is less skilled than Wlad and at this stage of his career is there for the taking for a boxer like Haye.

So what were those 'glaring' signs?

Was it that he basically anihalated a guy, who has a better crusierweight record, and a better HW record than Haye by using only his 'average jab'?

Was it that he didn't lose a round, thats probably about 90 rounds in a row now he has won?

Or was it that his smaller much faster opponent was too quick for him and led him a merry dance?

Come on what was it?

I am a firm believer that for a tall rangy fighter the best weapon he has is the jab. Take that away then you take his trump card. Vit has never had the best jab. It was always something to keep the opponent away as opposed to being an offensive weapon. Plus it is slow, deliberate and lacking snap.

But the obvious flaw in his game which is more glaring is that his chin is high up in the air. Keeping his hands down is an error. Plus the added fact that he fights closer to his opponent than Wlad makes his succeptible to right hooks all night. His reflexes have slowed a lot also and he doesn't get away from punches as he once did. Solis for 30 seconds showed that speed could hurt Vit. Of course we wont know what may have happened but if Vit beats Haye, I reckon they'll hand Solis to Wlad.

Yet despite these flaws, he has never been KO'd, and has never been knocked down? And despite his bad jab, he beat Adamek to a pulp with it, without doing much else - Go figure!

azania wrote:He was supposed to be fighting on the Lewis/Johnson undercard so was un full training. Its not as though he was dragged of the beach to fight lewis. Lewis prepared for Johnson and took it easy. A fit motivated Lewis would have taken Vit to school.

My point is you said he lacked bottle which he clearly didn't because he took on Lewis he would have fought his original and lesser opponent if he lacked bottle. Is that the same Lewis that was sparked out by McCall?

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:He was supposed to be fighting on the Lewis/Johnson undercard so was un full training. Its not as though he was dragged of the beach to fight lewis. Lewis prepared for Johnson and took it easy. A fit motivated Lewis would have taken Vit to school.

My point is you said he lacked bottle which he clearly didn't because he took on Lewis he would have fought his original and lesser opponent if he lacked bottle. Is that the same Lewis that was sparked out by McCall?

Every boxer would take a world title shot when given the chance. Also he was getting a career high payday.

All boxers have serious grapefruits. But you dont quit because of a dodgy arm. Especially when you're miles ahead and have to stay upright to win. Was in in round 10?

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:He was supposed to be fighting on the Lewis/Johnson undercard so was un full training. Its not as though he was dragged of the beach to fight lewis. Lewis prepared for Johnson and took it easy. A fit motivated Lewis would have taken Vit to school.

My point is you said he lacked bottle which he clearly didn't because he took on Lewis he would have fought his original and lesser opponent if he lacked bottle. Is that the same Lewis that was sparked out by McCall?

Every boxer would take a world title shot when given the chance. Also he was getting a career high payday.

All boxers have serious grapefruits. But you dont quit because of a dodgy arm. Especially when you're miles ahead and have to stay upright to win. Was in in round 10?

End of 10 or 11 I'm not sure but he was well ahead on the cards and has proved he has bottle since so the quitter tag just doesn't stick.

Yeah, you can't really call Quitali a quitter.

A bottler is perhaps too harsh, but he quit on his stool when all he had to do was stay uprigt for 6 minutes.

Like I said the injury must have been to bad to continue. He never wanted the fight to be stopped against Lewis and they were horrendous cuts.

I generally give Vitali the benefit of the doubt for that Byrd fight. I read an interview from him and he said he knew that kind of injury could potentially end a career so his decision was made with his entire career in mind. He said he knew he could beat Byrd in a rematch if it came to it and it wasnt worth risking his career. I think the injury occured in the 8th round, he carried on for the 9th but made the decision to stop then. So he would have still had to see out another 3 rounds with it.

As I have stated, other boxers continued with shoulder injuries that were more severe that Vit's. He had 3 rounds to go against a weak opponent but decided not to. For me, that;s a quitter.

Yes he wanted to continue against Lewis. But it reminds me of playground scraps when one guy gets very brave after he's been seperated.

Of course he would say it was a career ending injury. But how would he know. He couldn't have made a medicl diagnosis between rounds. I dont buy that excuse.

Hardly getting brave before they get separated. He won the last round they boxed in fact he was winning the fight.

azania wrote:As I have stated, other boxers continued with shoulder injuries that were more severe that Vit's. He had 3 rounds to go against a weak opponent but decided not to. For me, that;s a quitter.

Yes he wanted to continue against Lewis. But it reminds me of playground scraps when one guy gets very brave after he's been seperated.

Of course he would say it was a career ending injury. But how would he know. He couldn't have made a medicl diagnosis between rounds. I dont buy that excuse.

Promise you az - and I'm qualified to comment here - if you dislocate a tear a rotator cuff - you know. You can't lift your arm - not to punch and not to defend. So yes - you can make a medical diagnosis between rounds for some injuries.

I know you like to be controversial - but given you have declared Tyson "not a quitter" for the shameful display against Evander - but accuse Vitali of lacking cajones - I'll take your opinions with a pinch of salt.

hasn't he got a sports science phd or something? Isn't that like sport specific physiotherapy?

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:As I have stated, other boxers continued with shoulder injuries that were more severe that Vit's. He had 3 rounds to go against a weak opponent but decided not to. For me, that;s a quitter.

Yes he wanted to continue against Lewis. But it reminds me of playground scraps when one guy gets very brave after he's been seperated.

Of course he would say it was a career ending injury. But how would he know. He couldn't have made a medicl diagnosis between rounds. I dont buy that excuse.

Promise you az - and I'm qualified to comment here - if you dislocate a tear a rotator cuff - you know. You can't lift your arm - not to punch and not to defend. So yes - you can make a medical diagnosis between rounds for some injuries.

I know you like to be controversial - but given you have declared Tyson "not a quitter" for the shameful display against Evander - but accuse Vitali of lacking cajones - I'll take your opinions with a pinch of salt.

Trust me I know. I've dislocated my shoulder playing rugby. I screamed like a mofo. But Wiliams continued, so did MacMillan.

Tyson lost the plot. He took it to the streets. He didn't make a boxing decision.