Who will be behind the Hayemaker!?

by Waingro Tue 29 Nov - 9:26

First topic message reminder :

I said before that it would be a shame if Haye retired he still has so much to offer. Now it looks like Haye is back! Who will be behind him? I cant wait for this fight with Vitali I will be firmly supporting Haye. I think the British public should get behind him again we want a British heavyweight world champion dont we!? Haye will have learned from his last fight make no mistake about that and we all know he has the tools to beat Vitali who is old and slow now and far too easy to hit. My prediction? Haye to KO Vitali in round 6! Too much speed and power for Vitali and too much skill. I think Haye will bring an end to the Klichkos reign. Dont get me wrong, the Klichkos have been good champs but they are boring and have been ruining heavyweight boxing for far too long. Vitali should have stayed retired and let Wlad unify and Wlad should have retired after that the division would be so much better and the Klichkos reputation would be better. But I truly believe Haye is the man to do this now he is the most exciting heavyweight out there and has the charisma to get people back interested in boxing. I hope the British public and media realise this everyone deserves another chance and Haye deserves MASSIVE credit for coming back to take such a challenging fight. So in March who will you be supporting?? Will you be getting behind the Hayemaker again??

by JDandfries Fri 2 Dec - 15:14

Speaking of quitting, I am sure that could be used as a fair assement of Haye's last 'performance'

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Fri 2 Dec - 15:14

ShahenshahG wrote:hasn't he got a sports science phd or something? Isn't that like sport specific physiotherapy?

He does which makes him a doctor so probably a better judge of an injury than anyone on here. Especially when it was his injury.

by Scottrf Fri 2 Dec - 15:15

JDandfries wrote:Speaking of quitting, I am sure that could be used as a fair assement of Haye's last 'performance'

In which round did he quit?

by manos de piedra Fri 2 Dec - 15:16

You can theoretically carry on but its an enormous risk and your half defenceless. Is it really worth it? Hopkins suffered some sort of separation of a joint aswell. Would he be classified as a quitter?

I dont really view those kind of injuries as quitting. They are what they are - fight ending injuries. You can carry on, but its probably going above and beyond the call of duty if you cant lift or move an arm. For a boxer its a serious injury.

Quitting is something different for me.

by **Union Cane** Fri 2 Dec - 15:17

Hopkins didn't quit, he was TKO'd.

Erm

by JDandfries Fri 2 Dec - 15:18

Scottrf wrote:
JDandfries wrote:Speaking of quitting, I am sure that could be used as a fair assement of Haye's last 'performance'
In which round did he quit?

i think it was the first, as soon as he realised he had no chance, he basically kept out of the way for the rest of the fight, he may aswell have taken a knee for 10 in teh first round

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Fri 2 Dec - 15:19

Union Cane wrote:Hopkins didn't quit, he was TKO'd.

No he wasn't it was overturned.

by **Union Cane** Fri 2 Dec - 15:20

No it wasn't.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=1414&cat=boxer

by Scottrf Fri 2 Dec - 15:20

JDandfries wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
JDandfries wrote:Speaking of quitting, I am sure that could be used as a fair assement of Haye's last 'performance'
In which round did he quit?

i think it was the first, as soon as he realised he had no chance, he basically kept out of the way for the rest of the fight, he may aswell have taken a knee for 10 in teh first round

Spoiler:

by **ShahenshahG** Fri 2 Dec - 15:21

OK I

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Fri 2 Dec - 15:22

Union Cane wrote:No it wasn't.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=1414&cat=boxer

Yes it was Dan Rafael reported it on ESPN and so did a lot of sites boxrec obviously have dropped the ball on that one.

by Super D Boon Fri 2 Dec - 15:23

azania wrote:
JDandfries wrote:
azania wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:
azania wrote:Solis would beat Haye. I cant see how Adamek does. Or Chambers. Arreola may have a chance but not much. As for my boxing knowledge, thankfully its ok. Moreimportantly I understand styles and how they can have an effect on the outcome on matches. I dont just go by their last fight but take a general overview before coming to my decision. Hence I see Haye beating Vit.

Vitali has dominated smaller men which Haye is and Haye has done nothing at heavyweight to suggest he is in the class as Vitali.

I know he has. But the difference is that he is not as good as he was. Even in the Adamek fight, I saw glaring signs that he is not the guy he was 2 years ago.

I believe Haye showed enough in the Wlad fight that small adaptation to his gameplan would be sufficient to beat Vit. Wlad has an awesome ramrod jad which is not only a range finder but keeps others at bay. Vit's jab is no-where as good. Vit may be tougher but he is less skilled than Wlad and at this stage of his career is there for the taking for a boxer like Haye.

So what were those 'glaring' signs?

Was it that he basically anihalated a guy, who has a better crusierweight record, and a better HW record than Haye by using only his 'average jab'?

Was it that he didn't lose a round, thats probably about 90 rounds in a row now he has won?

Or was it that his smaller much faster opponent was too quick for him and led him a merry dance?

Come on what was it?

I am a firm believer that for a tall rangy fighter the best weapon he has is the jab. Take that away then you take his trump card. Vit has never had the best jab. It was always something to keep the opponent away as opposed to being an offensive weapon. Plus it is slow, deliberate and lacking snap.

But the obvious flaw in his game which is more glaring is that his chin is high up in the air. Keeping his hands down is an error. Plus the added fact that he fights closer to his opponent than Wlad makes his succeptible to right hooks all night. His reflexes have slowed a lot also and he doesn't get away from punches as he once did. Solis for 30 seconds showed that speed could hurt Vit. Of course we wont know what may have happened but if Vit beats Haye, I reckon they'll hand Solis to Wlad.

Just as I said, complete nonsense to back up your claims. Vitali, whilst not quite having the same ramrod jab as his kid brother nevertheless has a pretty decent jab. Bear it in mind he completely annihilated Adamek with it and barely threw his right hand. Adamek of course being an ex cruiser like Haye and faster and more elusive than most of Vitali's previous foes, arguably a better boxer than Haye couldn't negotiate a way around it.

The other "glaring" weakness as you point out is the chin in the air and the arms low Vitali has always fought like this and as for Solis, yes he had the beating of VK for about 30 seconds but you can hardly judge that as relevant in the context of a fight in which VK won by TKO1. You say he's not as good at getting away from punches as he was but I disagree on the basis that Herbie Hide had similar success to Odlanier Solis many years ago and arguably won the first round, it didn't stop him from getting battered in round 2.

by Scottrf Fri 2 Dec - 15:23

prettyboykev wrote:
Union Cane wrote:No it wasn't.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=1414&cat=boxer

Yes it was Dan Rafael reported it on ESPN and so did a lot of sites boxrec obviously have dropped the ball on that one.

No. The WBC overturned it, but they just hand out titles. The commission haven't overturned it.

by **Union Cane** Fri 2 Dec - 15:23

Er, obviously.

What is the official result now then?

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Fri 2 Dec - 15:28

Sorry Union I obviously read it wrong.

Scotts right the result stands because that is up to the California state athletic commission. Whereas the WBC just make up their own rules depending on how Jose feels that day or who gives him the nicest gift.

by azania Fri 2 Dec - 15:32

manos de piedra wrote:You can theoretically carry on but its an enormous risk and your half defenceless. Is it really worth it? Hopkins suffered some sort of separation of a joint aswell. Would he be classified as a quitter?

I dont really view those kind of injuries as quitting. They are what they are - fight ending injuries. You can carry on, but its probably going above and beyond the call of duty if you cant lift or move an arm. For a boxer its a serious injury.

Quitting is something different for me.

Of course its a risk. Audley gets chastised here for his 'effort' against Haye, but little to no prasie for fighting one handed. Had he lost, that he was one handed would have been ignored.

For me Hop quit. He plays the game perfectly and he had a perfect opportunity which he took.

by manos de piedra Fri 2 Dec - 15:36

azania wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:You can theoretically carry on but its an enormous risk and your half defenceless. Is it really worth it? Hopkins suffered some sort of separation of a joint aswell. Would he be classified as a quitter?

I dont really view those kind of injuries as quitting. They are what they are - fight ending injuries. You can carry on, but its probably going above and beyond the call of duty if you cant lift or move an arm. For a boxer its a serious injury.

Quitting is something different for me.

Of course its a risk. Audley gets chastised here for his 'effort' against Haye, but little to no prasie for fighting one handed. Had he lost, that he was one handed would have been ignored.

For me Hop quit. He plays the game perfectly and he had a perfect opportunity which he took.

I actually did give Audley credit for his win over Sprott, as I would any boxer who carries on in that spot (Ali/Abraham with broken jaws spring to mind). But the injuries we are talking about here are severelly debilatating and also carry longer term risks. Persoanlly I dont think its fair to accuse somebody with a severelly torn rotator cuff or seperated shoulder/elbw joint of quitting. Where do you draw the line? Is a broken arm quitting? Broken ribs? detached retina?

by Scottrf Fri 2 Dec - 15:40

Yep. Quitting doesn’t make allowances for the seriousness of the circumstances. A quit is a quit.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Fri 2 Dec - 15:41

Az you stuck up for Victor Ortiz and said his win over Berto redeemed himself for quitting against Maidana so your stance on Vitali makes no sense.

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 2 Dec - 15:42

Would depend on whose idea it was to pull him out, I would have thought.

by azania Fri 2 Dec - 15:45

manos de piedra wrote:
azania wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:You can theoretically carry on but its an enormous risk and your half defenceless. Is it really worth it? Hopkins suffered some sort of separation of a joint aswell. Would he be classified as a quitter?

I dont really view those kind of injuries as quitting. They are what they are - fight ending injuries. You can carry on, but its probably going above and beyond the call of duty if you cant lift or move an arm. For a boxer its a serious injury.

Quitting is something different for me.

Of course its a risk. Audley gets chastised here for his 'effort' against Haye, but little to no prasie for fighting one handed. Had he lost, that he was one handed would have been ignored.

For me Hop quit. He plays the game perfectly and he had a perfect opportunity which he took.

I actually did give Audley credit for his win over Sprott, as I would any boxer who carries on in that spot (Ali/Abraham with broken jaws spring to mind). But the injuries we are talking about here are severelly debilatating and also carry longer term risks. Persoanlly I dont think its fair to accuse somebody with a severelly torn rotator cuff or seperated shoulder/elbw joint of quitting. Where do you draw the line? Is a broken arm quitting? Broken ribs? detached retina?

The thing is many people calling Ortiz a quitter after the maidana fight. Each boxer reacts differently to adversity. But Vit quit. Not calling him a bottler. But other boxers have continued with similar injuries. He didn't. Make of that as you will.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Fri 2 Dec - 15:48

You never called Ortiz a quitter you stuck up for him when he signed to fight FMJ when other people were calling him a quitter.

by azania Fri 2 Dec - 15:59

I defended ortiz because people were calling him a coward. I haven't called Vit a coward and never will. But what seperates the two is that Vit was in command of his fight and even after theinjury happened he was still winning the round. It wasn't noticeable at all.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Fri 2 Dec - 16:03

Ortiz quit so he's a quitter he wasn't injured he just wasn't good enough on the night to cope with Maidana. That makes him a quitter surely?

Vitali had an injury and certainly was good enough on the night to cope with Byrd. So surely a bit of leeway is required considering his performance against Lewis and the fact he wanted that fight to keep going despite those cuts?

by manos de piedra Fri 2 Dec - 16:05

Well for me its about the kind of stigma that "quitter" has attached to it. The idea a fighter lacks heart or courage or determination more than what the technical defination of what quitting is.

I think we can expect a certain level of continuation in the face of injury/punishment from fighters. Cuts, injured hands, broken noe those kind of things come with the sport and you would not expect a pro boxer to quit on those grounds.

But the kinds of delibatating injuries like torn joints and muscles that render you partially incapacitated are a level or two above at least. I dont think its reasonable to expect fighters to continue to fight with those kind of injuries. And by saying they quit kind of insinuates they lack courage and heart and lumps them in with far worse kinds of quitting.

by azania Fri 2 Dec - 16:06

prettyboykev wrote:Ortiz quit so he's a quitter he wasn't injured he just wasn't good enough on the night to cope with Maidana. That makes him a quitter surely?

Vitali had an injury and certainly was good enough on the night to cope with Byrd. So surely a bit of leeway is required considering his performance against Lewis and the fact he wanted that fight to keep going despite those cuts?

Cowardice or quitter? Does the same apply to Cotto?

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Fri 2 Dec - 16:10

I don't like the word quitter but Ortiz did quit for no reason other than he couldn't cope with Maidana that night for whatever reason/excuse he wants to give.

Vitali I don't consider to have quit because he had an injury. Cotto was beat up with what I suspect were hand wraps loaded with plaster of Paris so I wouldn't call him a quitter.

One of my favourite fighters have quit. Calderon packed it in against Segura because he couldn't beat him. Seguras body shots sickened him and he didn't fancy any more so he took a knee and never got up.

I'm not keen on the tag quitter but I certainly don't think it's one you can label at Vitali.

by manos de piedra Fri 2 Dec - 16:17

I think quitter/quitting implies that there wasnt a good reason to withdraw. Retirement due to injury implies there was.

With Vitali against Byrd I tend to think its the latter even though there may be cases where fighters have carried on.

by dublfcynwa Fri 2 Dec - 16:31

"He is the most exciting heavyweight" Laugh

by **oxring** Fri 2 Dec - 16:58

manos de piedra wrote:I think quitter/quitting implies that there wasnt a good reason to withdraw. Retirement due to injury implies there was.

With Vitali against Byrd I tend to think its the latter even though there may be cases where fighters have carried on.

Ever get the impression your opinion isn't being listened to? When you have to keep making the same point about 50 times?

I absolutely agree. There comes a time where continuing makes you a fool.

Az - you like MMA - did Jackson quit against Jones? Or Fedor against Werdum? Just what is your line on tapping out?

by Super D Boon Fri 2 Dec - 17:11

Azania makes me long for the days of Julius.....................oh no he's not THAT bad.

by azania Fri 2 Dec - 18:01

manos de piedra wrote:I think quitter/quitting implies that there wasnt a good reason to withdraw. Retirement due to injury implies there was.

With Vitali against Byrd I tend to think its the latter even though there may be cases where fighters have carried on.

That is the implication I agree. But my issue is that other boxers have decided to continue with similar and worse injuries. He decided not to continue even though he was winning handily. Could he have continued? I believe he could have. I am not calling him a coward or bottler. Any man who steps into a fight ring is not a coward. But he took the easy option.

Danny William#s arm was hanging like a thread but he continued. Audley couldn't use his right arm yet he continued. The world heavyweight champion decided not to continue.

by azania Fri 2 Dec - 18:02

Super D Boon wrote:Azania makes me long for the days of Julius.....................oh no he's not THAT bad.

Nothing much to say do you Megne?

by azania Fri 2 Dec - 18:04

oxring wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:I think quitter/quitting implies that there wasnt a good reason to withdraw. Retirement due to injury implies there was.

With Vitali against Byrd I tend to think its the latter even though there may be cases where fighters have carried on.

Ever get the impression your opinion isn't being listened to? When you have to keep making the same point about 50 times?

I absolutely agree. There comes a time where continuing makes you a fool.

Az - you like MMA - did Jackson quit against Jones? Or Fedor against Werdum? Just what is your line on tapping out?

My opinion isn't being listened to Nkosi. Why do I have to repeat myself so often??????? furious

Rampage tapped out. Fedor tapped out. Both were on the floor. Vit 'tapped out' on his stool.

by **HumanWindmill** Sat 3 Dec - 9:37

I believe it is necessary to separate ourselves from the romance of what the heavyweight championship and the heavyweight champion represent.

Bottom line, ( to me, ) is that Vitali Klitschko went to work against Byrd just as a coal miner or an accountant go to work, and with the same objective ; to put food on the table for his family. If a doctor signs off a coal miner due to a broken arm or an accountant due to pneumonia nobody is going to cry ' quit.'

Easy to take the moral high ground from the comfort of our arm chairs and ascribe to pro fighters unreasonable standards to which we, ourselves, could never aspire.

What next, Frazier ' quit ' in Manila? McClellan ' quit ' against Benn?

Each to his own, but I don't think so.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sat 3 Dec - 11:31

Everybody should be behind the guy...British isn't he?????

Come on however you feel about your Country and your sportsmen they are representing you....

end of...Makes me sick the lack of National pride on here..

by **ShahenshahG** Sat 3 Dec - 11:49

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Everybody should be behind the guy...British isn't he?????

Come on however you feel about your Country and your sportsmen they are representing you....

end of...Makes me sick the lack of National pride on here..

This coming from a guy who left his country of origin to profiteer from the bouncy castle shortage of the century. Haye has gotten where he has - not on merit but on bluster - then he didn't back up that bluster with even an ounce of the courage and ability he claimed to have. That's why he gets pilloried on here - the fact that he is a brit doesn't come into it.

by **HumanWindmill** Sat 3 Dec - 11:53

I like to see a man proud of the place in which he lives. I like to see a man live so that his place will be proud of him. ~Abraham Lincoln

The love of one's country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border? ~Pablo Casals

Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong. ~James Bryce

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them! ~Albert Einstein

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. ~George Santayana

Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons. ~Bertrand Russell

Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles. ~George Jean Nathan

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. ~George Bernard Shaw

To him in whom love dwells, the whole world is but one family. ~Buddha

What is patriotism but the love of the food one ate as a child? ~Lin Yutang

If I knew something that would serve my country but would harm mankind, I would never reveal it; for I am a citizen of humanity first and by necessity, and a citizen of France second, and only by accident. ~Montesquieu

Nationalism is a silly man sausage crowing on his own dunghill. ~Richard Aldington

Patriotism, the virtue of the vicious. ~Oscar Wilde

Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched. ~Guy de Maupassant

Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first. ~Charles de Gaulle

by TRUSSMAN66 Sat 3 Dec - 11:56

Certainly an interesting bunch of quotes...

Thanks for posting...

Can see why Wilde would have an issue with it..

by **HumanWindmill** Sat 3 Dec - 11:58

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Certainly an interesting bunch of quotes...

Thanks for posting...

Can see why Wilde would have an issue with it..

Ha!

So can I, mate.

by Waingro Sat 3 Dec - 12:45

I agree with TRUSMAN people should be behind Haye he is British we should want a British world champ it is sad so many people are not behind him and want boring Vitali to win.

by **ShahenshahG** Sat 3 Dec - 12:47

Waingro wrote:I agree with TRUSMAN people should be behind Haye he is British we should want a British world champ it is sad so many people are not behind him and want boring Vitali to win.

A coochee coochee coooo

by **HumanWindmill** Sat 3 Dec - 12:49

Waingro wrote:I agree with TRUSMAN people should be behind Haye he is British we should want a British world champ it is sad so many people are not behind him and want boring Vitali to win.

Some of us are more interested in boxing than geography. Perhaps geography is your specialist subject, though.

Boxing certainly isn't.

by **ShahenshahG** Sat 3 Dec - 12:53

HumanWindmill wrote:
Waingro wrote:I agree with TRUSMAN people should be behind Haye he is British we should want a British world champ it is sad so many people are not behind him and want boring Vitali to win.

Some of us are more interested in boxing than geography. Perhaps geography is your specialist subject, though.

Boxing certainly isn't.

Or perhaps Geography is his excuse - he's logged on from broadmoor.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sat 3 Dec - 12:54

Now now.....keep it clean..

by Waingro Sat 3 Dec - 12:58

What is wrong with supporting your own boxers? I am up for Haye he is British and a I want to see Britain doing well in sports would people here not support England or Scotland or Wales or Ireland in other sports???

by **HumanWindmill** Sat 3 Dec - 12:59

Waingro wrote:What is wrong with supporting your own boxers? I am up for Haye he is British and a I want to see Britain doing well in sports would people here not support England or Scotland or Wales or Ireland in other sports???

Nothing whatsoever.

What is wrong is that you demand that the rest of us do so.

by **HumanWindmill** Sat 3 Dec - 13:19

Come to think of it, Waingro, your persistence has worn me down. I'm rooting for Haye.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/PaluchUStopy.jpg

by Waingro Sat 3 Dec - 13:20

HumanWindmill wrote:Come to think of it, Waingro, your persistence has worn me down. I'm rooting for Haye.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/PaluchUStopy.jpg

All aboard the Hayemaker Express!!

Aint no stopping us now, were on the move!

by **ShahenshahG** Sat 3 Dec - 13:21

HAHAHAHA.

Maybe he's a fetishist

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