Ulster v Scarlets 2nd December 2011 at Ravenhill KO 7.05pm

First topic message reminder :

Ulster
(15-9): A D'Arcy; A Trimble, D Cave, N Spence, C Gilroy; I Humphreys, P Marshall;
(1-8): T Court, R Best, J Afoa, J Muller (capt), D Tuohy, S Ferris, C Henry, P Wannenburg;

Replacements (16-23): N Brady, P McAllister, A Macklin, L Stevenson, R Diack, R Pienaar, P Jackson, I Whitten

Scarlets:

15-9 Dan Evans, Iongi, Reynolds, Warren, Lamont, Jones, Gareth Davies
1-8 John, Owens, Manu, Reed, Powell, Gilbert, McCusker, Murphy

16-23 Phillips, Iestyn Thomas, Gardiner, Welch, Edwards, Rhodri Williams, Newton, Iolo Evans.

Exactly. Failing to plan and all that.

That was a very weak Scarlets 15, expect 10 or 11 changes for the Heineken game next week! Given that fact Ulster did not look very convincing (Ferris apart!)

Ulster have invested heavily in their squad in recent seasons, what is going wrong?

Bad management basically. Players are being mistreated, making silly mistakes and Ulster just seem out of ideas. Strange selections also (Danielli at 15 for 4 games in a row when he clearly was not able to play there). Ulster potentially have a fantastic side I think, with a very formidable pack and exciting backs, but that side rarely shows. Many players have also went down hill, so the only place to look right now is the coaching. I mean, look at this team, which I think is Ulster's best 15 with all players fit:

Court - Best - Afoa
Muller - Tuohy
Ferris - Henry - Faloon
Marshall - Pienaar
Wallace - Spence/Cave
Gilroy - D'Arcy - Trimble

That is a very very good team to work with. Many talented players there, some of them even world class players. However Ulster are putting in lacklustre performances week in week out. Something needs sorted big time. As you can tell, Ulster frustrate me haha

I think it's just a lack of continuity and a lack of confidence.

Rory is ignoring the fact that Afoa has only played three games this season, Pienaar has only started one and come on as a replacement in another. Johann Muller missed the first six games of the season, as did Paddy Wallace and Andrew Trimble. Stephen Ferris and Rory Best missed the first 8 games of the season.

So it's not our experienced guys who have let us down, it's our strength in depth. It's the quality of the players who are left and what the coaches are getting out of them.

Wannenburg is not as good as he was last year. A massive HC match may flick the switch, or at least I hope it does.

I think the part you said about what the coaches are getting out of them rings true Notch. when you consider how well the young leinster lads have played recently there seems to be a culture of fear for young lads at ulster. Fear of making mistakes. This doesnt seem to be the case under schmidt and i think he is giving the youngsters license to use their talents. McLaughlin and Doak dont seem to be able to do that and taking the example of Spence and Gilroy i feel we are seeing the natural instincts coached out of our young players which is dreadful.

I didnt say this roysh, but Ulster so badly miss Paddy Wallace. When he plays, he makes it all happen at the back. Pienaar too. All is not lost. This Ulster side is 100% better than we have seen of them lately. Just look at the players available to them.

Something is not right in the background. McLaughlin has said he is not happy with their performances. Lazy. Errm ...

Humphries (Sr.) will only put up with this for so long.

Gibson wrote:I didnt say this roysh, but Ulster so badly miss Paddy Wallace. When he plays, he makes it all happen at the back. Pienaar too. All is not lost. This Ulster side is 100% better than we have seen of them lately. Just look at the players available to them.

Something is not right in the background. McLaughlin has said he is not happy with their performances. Lazy. Errm ...

Humphries (Sr.) will only put up with this for so long.

Totally agree about Wallace. This season we have really missed him in the backline I think. Marshall would have been a good alternative but he has been injured.

Stand have you seen Doak on the sideline? He goes absolutely ballistic at players if they make the slightest mistake. I've heard him calling Danielli a motherplucker a few season ago because he overran a support line or something. Thats very typical of the man. If you have a coach like that, you're gonna be more concerned about making mistakes than being positive. A coach like Doak its purely about sticking to his (fairly mediocre structures) and if you stand and watch him during games he will give pelters abuse to players if they depart from his instructions.

I really don't rate Doak- I don't think he should be in the set-up at all. I rate Jeremy Davidson and losing him was a massive blow. I rate McLaughlin but he needs support, especially in backs coaching. Jonny Bell is decent but hardly the best defence coach around- he's done well but would struggle to get the job he has at Ulster anywhere else.

The coaching at Leinster, for instance, leaves us in the dust. Even looking at Connacht- we'd be so much better even with someone like Eric Elwood involved in our set-up.

He's actually got Niall O'Connor looking like an outhalf, playing well. At Ulster he was lacking in any confidence or self-belief.

I havent seen it myself Notch but i have lurked enough on the UAFC at times to know thats typical of the man. I think on the old 606 there were a few people who complained about it.

To be honest (and i have said on here i think Danielli is more or less done) if i were in Simons shoes i would be inclined to question Doaks own ability. I dont think that every coach has to be an ex player or anything like that but i do think they need to have more experience than just the one team.

McLaughlin isnt part of the old boys network which i like but to have Malone, Longwell, Doak, Bell, Humph snr and constable all knocking around the set up cosily worries me. Humph has done a great job imo but at what level are we settling for all this old boys network. Is it DOR/CEO level or as geoff alluded to the committee.

With the calibre of young backs we have in and around the squad Ulster really deserve to have a backs coach worthy of them. Doak isnt.

Tereblanche is in the building

Doak by contrast is a total arse and needs to go

The reference to a cosy old boy network is spot on.
We need an outsider to shake things up - unfortunatley we tried that by making a terrible choice in Matt Williams

geoff998rugby wrote:Tereblanche is in the building

Doak by contrast is a total arse and needs to go

Problem with Ulster backs - leaving aside coaching for a moment, which does have issues I suggest the following.

A set of backs relies on 9,10,12 and 15 to make the big calls - Ulster have had no decision makers in those positions.

Marshall, Humphreys, Spence, D'Arcy/Danielli.

Our key decision makers - Pienaer, Wallace and Payne have all been injured.
Spence I can forgive given his youth.
D'Arcy I can forgive given his inexperience
Marshall I can forgive that he has worked really hard on improving his game, and with some success, given he had hugh boots to fill and the fact that lately some of his decision making has been quitte good.

Humphreys and Danielli - sorry but for guys this far into their career it is unacceptable. They have failed us.

Going back to Spence I do criticise the coaching. The days of the crash ball 12 have gone the game has moved on. Spence is a 13 or a winger not a 12. Losing Luke Marshall as well as Wallace has been a hugh blow. Inspite of previous observation I honestly think Cave and Spence should switch - Cave is by some distance our most intelligent back (in Wallace's absence ) and Humphreys may just put in a passable performance with Pienaer and Cave either side telling him what to do.

geoff998rugby wrote:Tereblanche is in the building

Doak by contrast is a total arse and needs to go

Totally agree. Will wait for the D'Arcy/Terblanche debates with bated breath.

I was at the RDS on Friday night and saw Leinster totally demolish Cardiff. The difference between their performance and Ulster's early season win over the same opposition - total ruthlessness. No way were Leinster happy at just winning. They wanted to score as many points as they could in the time allowed. Did they let up after scoring 4 tries - No way.
Their young backs played with total confidence in their own ability. They played with more intensity and pace than we do. Their passing and off-loading game is much superior and they make very few mistakes. All this confirms that we need outside coaches to get the best out of our young fellas otherwise they will be behind their counterparts. ATM McFadden/O'Malley is a much more exciting centre partnership than Spence/Cave. They shouldn't be but.....

I am sure that is correct Rava but why ? - for me it is because Leinster have decision makers at 10 and 15 helping them.

Ulster on the other hand have Humphreys and Danielli who could decide how to get out a paper bag between them.

Leinsters players shine, whilst Ulster's flounder as a result.

Would a more forward orientated game suit Ulster seeing as the backs are not doing well?

Absolutely right Geoff but for most of Fridays game Madigan was at 10. I believe you have a point about decision makers but the lines they were running and the time/space they were creating allowed them to play the fast running rugby. This is from the coaches. Also to do this there must be a total confidence in the ability of the players around you and NO fear of making mistakes.

red_stag wrote:Would a more forward orientated game suit Ulster seeing as the backs are not doing well?

In the short term yes in the long term no.

With Pienaer, Trimble, Payne, Wallace and the best set of youngesters in a generation our backs should not be weak.

However we are always going to be handicapped by having an inadequate 10.

The perfect solution would be Dublin allowing us a NIQ 10 for a couple of years - this will help develop the youngsters. Currently I fear they could go backwards. This would mean saying goodbye to Danielli and Wannenberg and we would need a couple of backrowers to come north to compensate. Surely finances can be organzied to make this happen. Irish rugby as a whole would benefit.

Dublin should have no probs with an Ulster NIQ 10.

Munster - ROG, Keatley
Connacht - O'Connor
Leinster - Sexton, Madigan

We have two excellent young 10's in Jackson and McKinney. Neither is getting quality game time. Neither are likely to be learning a great deal from Humphries jun. and they will be feeling the negative vibes coming from the rest of the players.
I agree an established international class OH is needed to bring out the best in them.
Sacrificing Danielli and Wannenburg would be worth it I think.

Exactly. Humphreys isn't good enough and Jackson at 19 would learn a lot from a quality 10 for 2 years

geoff998rugby wrote:Problem with Ulster backs - leaving aside coaching for a moment, which does have issues I suggest the following.

A set of backs relies on 9,10,12 and 15 to make the big calls - Ulster have had no decision makers in those positions.

Marshall, Humphreys, Spence, D'Arcy/Danielli.

Our key decision makers - Pienaer, Wallace and Payne have all been injured.
Spence I can forgive given his youth.
D'Arcy I can forgive given his inexperience
Marshall I can forgive that he has worked really hard on improving his game, and with some success, given he had hugh boots to fill and the fact that lately some of his decision making has been quitte good.

Humphreys and Danielli - sorry but for guys this far into their career it is unacceptable. They have failed us.

Going back to Spence I do criticise the coaching. The days of the crash ball 12 have gone the game has moved on. Spence is a 13 or a winger not a 12. Losing Luke Marshall as well as Wallace has been a hugh blow. Inspite of previous observation I honestly think Cave and Spence should switch - Cave is by some distance our most intelligent back (in Wallace's absence ) and Humphreys may just put in a passable performance with Pienaer and Cave either side telling him what to do.

Completely agree with all of this. However do you think they will actually switch Cave and Spence? I don't see it happening myself.

It definitelly wont happen - fear, of which someone spoke, permiates the coaching staff and goes onto the pitch. Trying anything left field is not considered. You combine this with experienced players without the bottle (Humphreys and Danielli) , and I use the word deliberately, to take control and the youngsters are always going to struggle.

As soon as Payne was injured we should have had Gaston or Nelson on the bench with D'Arcy starting and given them 10/15 mins in certain games. Playing Danielli at 15 was plain daft. Too radical - lets go with tried and tested mediocrity

Im not convinced we need an NIQ 10.

We have to decide who is coming through. Gilroy was given a great run of games last year as was Spence (albeit through Caves injury) and we reaped the benefits.

Spence has regressed due to playing him in the wrong position and Gilroy while looking a lot more solid has had very little chance to impose himself on games.

To my mind we need to bring through either Jackson or Marshall pronto (well probably after the leicester game) and put Paddy in at 12 or 10 respectively.

Paddy was himself mismanaged and wasted for many years and i dont think we can afford to make the same mistakes with jackson and Marshall. If they fulfil their potential then we have that great decision making axis we need for many many years.

Is that the near-crisis over at Ravenhill then?!

There's no pleasing em Asbo.

I met Rava on the Friday night in Dublin and congratulated him on a great win against Scarlets.

He instead chose to grumble about the first half display

red_stag wrote:There's no pleasing em Asbo.

I met Rava on the Friday night in Dublin and congratulated him on a great win against Scarlets.

He instead chose to grumble about the first half display

How could I discuss the second half without having seen any of it? Anyway by all accounts we papered over a few more cracks.

Should we expect the glue to come unstuck soon tho?!?!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Should we expect the glue to come unstuck soon tho?!?!

NO!! <slinksawaywithfingersandtoescrossed>

There is no way that performance should be used to allay our fears. We conspired to give the scarlets 3 scores through urine poor defending while butchering two certain tries and numerous chances.

Confidence is at a low ebb and to be honest i am thankful we have aironi twice now

We'll beat Aironi twice and everything will be lovely.

We will then loose the 2 Inter Provincials and be in the depths of depression again.

Lo and behold an away win in Edinburgh and a narrow home win against Leicester and hope will spring eternal once more.

Get crushed in Clermont and the end of the world is upon us (Unless we scrape into the Amlin in which case it will just about be ok)

Its the roller coaster ride that is being an Ulster fan

geoff998rugby wrote:We'll beat Aironi twice and everything will be lovely.

We will then loose the 2 Inter Provincials and be in the depths of depression again.

Lo and behold an away win in Edinburgh and a narrow home win against Leicester and hope will spring eternal once more.

Get crushed in Clermont and the end of the world is upon us (Unless we scrape into the Amlin in which case it will just about be ok)

Its the roller coaster ride that is being an Ulster fan

Love It

I just seen Terblanche's pecs in a fitted sweater and he's won me over...

Like I said before, if he wants to come in and boost our HC or Rabo chances for a while thats brilliant. If he doesn't set the world allight, back to D'arcy in a flash, no point wasting our time on a temp.

Basically he has to be phenomenal to be allowed ahead of our full contracts.

He will offer 2 things - Bryn like security under the high ball and the boot of a mule.

Does anyone know if the match will be on Sky this weekend?

I think it is a red button job.

I think the Ulster facebook thing said there was no TV coverage?

Are you lot still whinging about the performance?....

Rodders is right - not on the box.

It is Quins v Toulouse with Blues v Edinburgh on the Red button.

You'll just have to go to Ravenhill

geoff998rugby wrote:He will offer 2 things - Bryn like security under the high ball and the boot of a mule.

That and some much needed wisdom and leadership in the backline!!

I'm not being funny here but maybe we should wait until Terblanche actually plays for us before assuming he actually brings us anything.

Personally I think if we are excited about what a 36 year old player on a 3 month contract can bring to the side then there is something very wrong with our club.

he has played his best rugby in years for the past two seasons for the Sharks, he's a good signing, and much needed in my opinion!

roddersm wrote:I'm not being funny here but maybe we should wait until Terblanche actually plays for us before assuming he actually brings us anything.

Personally I think if we are excited about what a 36 year old player on a 3 month contract can bring to the side then there is something very wrong with our club.

Agree with this.

There is something very wrong with our club... thats why we find ourselves in this position!

Shafted wrote:There is something very wrong with our club... thats why we find ourselves in this position!

Thats poppycock....we'll be back to the pinacle of Europe in no time ....with D'arcy at 15...

Thats poppycock....we'll be back to the pinacle of Europe in no time ....with D'arcy at 15... .

you're aiming your sights very low... we're after world domination no less!![quote]

Ah, come on. You're being unnecessarily harsh, Shaft-o. Munster fans are counting the days until David Wallace (35), Jerry Flannery (33) and Doug Howlett (33) are fit for duty. Peter Stringer (33) has just gone to Saracens on a 3 month loan.

What's important about Terblanch is not his explosive power and speed, but his experience and steadying influence in a backline with a 20 year old, a 21 year old and 24 year old. He's replacing a player who has one-and-a-half seasons of professional rugby under his belt, and, unlike Gilroy or Spence, no U20s representative rugby and no time in any academy or such-like.

Don Alfonso wrote: He's replacing a player who has one-and-a-half seasons of professional rugby under his belt, and, unlike Gilroy or Spence, no U20s representative rugby and no time in any academy or such-like.

Yes but if Terblanche replaces him D'arcy will still have one and a half seasons of professional rugby under his belt come next season and Terblanche will be gone. Payne will hopefully be back but we'll still have no experienced understudy.

Alfie, i agree i'm all for Stephen of the Whiteland signing for 3 months (possibly to season end). I think he can offer a hell of a lot on and off the pitch. Age at this stage doesnt matter...experience and form do!

I don't agree Shafted. We aren't going to win trophies this season.

However if we can keep our current crop together then we may well be serious contenders in the next few seasons, but only if we give our younger players game time.

Even with no new signings we should be better this year than last, if our coaching team are doing their jobs right. The same next year. We should be developing the players we have rather than looking for quick fix signings.

In principle i agree, however the reality is that we have a talented but young backline and leadership is missing. Payne was brought in as accomplished FB but also as a leader and organiser. this was evident in his first few games, he kept talking and pulling players in etc.

To allow some of these youngsters to play with a losing gameplan, without onfield guidance could be hugely detrimental to their game. D'arcy not getting game time is a small sacrifce to pay to enable players like Spence, Gilroy, Young Skywaker et al to learn from experience on the field.

Trimble is experienced but lacks leadership qualities. I think this is a shrewd investment and isnt costing us anything as it is covered by Payne's insurance.