Do the Unions have to much input into the PRO12, to ever make it a rival for the Prem or Top14?

Currently I believe that the Pro 12 contains teams that are at least the equal of teams in the Prem or Top 14, however as a competition I believe it lags way behind these other two.
For Munster last year it was a meer consolation prize, and never counted as much by Ospreys or Leinster when they won it.

IMO, the order of things a club wants to win should be H-cup, domestic League, Amlin cup. However in the Pro 12 the Amlin may possilby rank ahead of the Pro 12.

Compare how happy Saracens fans were to win the Prem and that the French Captain said winning the Top 14 was near as important as winning the World cup, both these leagues are geared to be competative, and winning the H-Cup is only slightly better than winning the League. Compare to the Pro 12 the H-cup counts far and above the Pro 12 title, and the Pro 12 title doesn't matter as much to players and fans of the Pro 12 teams, as the Prem or top 14 does to the players and fans of the Prem and Top 14 teams.

The Pro 12 is not as competitive, and can be viewed as a bit better than a development league, to help young players develop and others to peak for the H-cup and international games, as such it will always struggle to be in the same calss as the Prem and Top 14.

Due to this I believe fans can see it as little more than a series of slightly than better friendlies, and hence will struggle to attract big crowds. All the Unions get to call on their own players more often than in other leagues, meaning they miss more games, meaning the league is a little diminished as a result.

Additional to this IRFU have the player rest periods, where most centrally contracted players only play about 4 out of every 6 games (depending on age, fitness etc), its down to the coach to decide when to rest the player, but mostly they keep them for h-cup games and rest them durning Pro 12 games.

The WRU has added another international game outside the international windows, meaning players will miss more than normal this season, and the SRU before the end of last season listed a numer of players that weren't to play anymore games in case they got injuried before the worldcup.

I don't believe that the Pro 12 will ever mean as much, as the Top 14 or the Prem, as long as the Unions have so much say in it, it will not then ever be taken as serious by the fans, or matter as much, and therefore will never pull in the crowds on a regular basis.

Do you think the Unions have to much input into the Pro 12, and have they a detrimental effect on the League as a competition, or is it balanced well with player development, and a viable competition?

Personally I like the Pro 12 but wish it was taken more seriously.

I don't really have a problem with the IRFU rest periods as it keeps the players fresh for the year, no end of season burn out, and the Irish teams do well in the pro 12 even with this, but it does effect teh christmas Derbies which should be the biggest local games, but centrally contracted players are always rested for these which takes away from them.

Not sure what could be done to have Unions and then hence fans take the League more serious but still use it to help develop players. Its a fine balance to reach between development and competation, but at present I think the Unions have swung to to far towards development, and hence fans are reacting with most teams struggleing to attrach the crowds they would like.

The thing is, you're comparing apples with lamposts. The Pro12 is an adequate format i.e a league for the professional clubs of each participating country, 4 Irish, 4 Welsh, 2 Scottish and 2 Italian.
The other two leagues you mention are solely English and French professional clubs with a second tier of professional/semi professional clubs with promotion/relegation.
The French and English leagues have been around so much longer with more tradition, history and rivalries.
Our league is still in it's infancy but I really enjoy it. The fact that Pro12 clubs have won 3 of the last 4 Heineken cups would also suggest that it's not the worst scenario by any means.
Yes it gives more opportunity to young players but I see this as a benefit. It offers a very competitive environment to develop without the win at all costs mentality of the other leagues.

Would sponsorship and £££'s have anything to do it?

Cardiff Dave wrote:Would sponsorship and £££'s have anything to do it?

Surely the Sponsors would want the League to be more competitive as this would drawn in bigger crowds and tv figures, and hence show there brand name to a bigger audience.

The Pro12 is still just a baby. Give it time and it will all work.There are already some needle between some regions that are getting interesting. Outside the derby's I always like the Ospreys V Munster games as there always seems to be a little extra edge about it, I also like the Scarlets V Ulster, and the Blues V Glasgow for the same reasons. I have no doubt that within the next five to ten years that the Celtic league will be the envy of most other nations, just as the six nations tournament is to everyone else. The souther hemisphere concept of the super 14 was the same as the Pro12 to start with and now look how that is flourishing, if anything in a few years the Pro12 will become the Pro14 or sixteen with probably one more Welsh region another Scottish and perhaps two more Italian regions, then that will be just enough.

In Wales and Ireland (not sure bout Scotland) but the priority is rightly the National team and the agreements the respective Regions/Provinces havewith their Unions allow for the best preperation.

For me the clubs have to much say in England and a lot of clubs have way to many forigners which has an affect on the National side.

I agree that the HC now ranks are the competition teams want to win but the French take their Top14 more serious, of course to qualify for the HC you need to do well in the Pro12 so that in itself will makes teams take it serious.

I think the Amlin is good for the teams like the Dragons (my Region) who feel they may have better chance in that than the main HC.

As long the Unions input is to the national team benefit then I don't care. The National team is the most important. If you want to see those changes then all club rugby would have to be played before 6 Nations, Autumn Series and World Cups. That is the only way I see it being possible but I can not see a NH season restructure any time soon.

In England and France, there is a lot of players with a lot of clubs, more than anyone else in the world. They also generate the most money and each team has a strong fan base. Their towns/cities are big enough entities for that fan and player base. If this didn't make their leagues successful nothing would. The difference between these two sets of people and the ones that ply their trade in the Pro 12 is denial. Any French or English team not able to win the H-cup or be competitive at it will say they were prioritising the league all along; where as you feel sides of the Pro12 always treat the H-cup as the bees knees. So we should, it is a great competition.

Kingshu wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Would sponsorship and £££'s have anything to do it?

Surely the Sponsors would want the League to be more competitive as this would drawn in bigger crowds and tv figures, and hence show there brand name to a bigger audience.

I mentioned "sponsorship and £££'s" because nobody had previously and it's key in having a competitive league as you seem to recognise. But I don't just mean Rabo or Magners, but companies like Sky, Orange, Aviva, etc.

Yes you're right, sponsors would want the league to be competitive before they threw in their lot. Fat chance of that happening in the Pro12. On the other hand, a big sponsor throwing in a load of cash could make it competitive overnight as long as there was prize money worth winning. Teams would field their strongest sides more often than not and crowds would begin to increase possibly.

Either way, big sponsors would require a committment from the clubs and respective unions to ensure high profile players are on show as much as possible. In the case of Wales, the additional AI and Gatland's 13 day ruling would be a hinderance.

In my opinion there are far too many ifs, buts and maybes at present for any big sponsorship deals to take place in the near future so we're stuck with what we have.

Morgannwg wrote:As long the Unions input is to the national team benefit then I don't care. The National team is the most important. If you want to see those changes then all club rugby would have to be played before 6 Nations, Autumn Series and World Cups. That is the only way I see it being possible but I can not see a NH season restructure any time soon.

In England and France, there is a lot of players with a lot of clubs, more than anyone else in the world. They also generate the most money and each team has a strong fan base. Their towns/cities are big enough entities for that fan and player base. If this didn't make their leagues successful nothing would. The difference between these two sets of people and the ones that ply their trade in the Pro 12 is denial. Any French or English team not able to win the H-cup or be competitive at it will say they were prioritising the league all along; where as you feel sides of the Pro12 always treat the H-cup as the bees knees. So we should, it is a great competition.

Why don't you care?
Surely you must believe that a proper competitive Pro12 league would be hugely beneficial to Welsh rugby?

French and English sides have in the past put their domestic competitions first. I believe Quins rested players in the HEC 2 seasons ago preferring to concentrate on the league.

The national teams take precedence. That's why the unions are in charge. Resting star players sometimes, benefits the national team. Blooding youngsters in a decent competition, instead of buying foreigners, benefits the national team. We have to maximize our small player pools to compete with England and France. That's the whole point of the league.

Personally I like the way we get to see younger players develop in the league. I prefer the attacking style of rugby a lot of teams play. Very few teams in the Premiership or Top 14 play attacking rugby. It's mostly conservative and pragmatic. I also like the way the vast majority of the Leinster squad are local lads and not foreign mercenaries like in Toulon. And I have seen all our stars like O'Driscoll in the flesh play in the league.

I agree that if the international players were playing week in week out it would probably boost attendances. But it wouldn't be good for their welfare. And it wouldn't allow our small number of teams to develop as many younger players

National team HAS to be priority IMO yes I agree that strong league itself will benefit the National side but if the Unions have more if not full control over players then that is best IMO of course

Feckless Rogue wrote:The national teams take precedence. That's why the unions are in charge. Resting star players sometimes, benefits the national team. Blooding youngsters in a decent competition, instead of buying foreigners, benefits the national team. We have to maximize our small player pools to compete with England and France. That's the whole point of the league.

Personally I like the way we get to see younger players develop in the league. I prefer the attacking style of rugby a lot of teams play. Very few teams in the Premiership or Top 14 play attacking rugby. It's mostly conservative and pragmatic. I also like the way the vast majority of the Leinster squad are local lads and not foreign mercenaries like in Toulon. And I have seen all our stars like O'Driscoll in the flesh play in the league.

I agree that if the international players were playing week in week out it would probably boost attendances. But it wouldn't be good for their welfare. And it wouldn't allow our small number of teams to develop as many younger players

Do you reckon Munster, Leinster or Ulster would have qualified for the HEC as easily as they have done in the past if they had been involved in a proper French or English type leagues?

bedfordwelsh wrote:National team HAS to be priority IMO yes I agree that strong league itself will benefit the National side but if the Unions have more if not full control over players then that is best IMO of course

Too many IMO's I think. Try not to sit on the fence bedford. Say what you see.

Do you reckon Munster, Leinster or Ulster would have qualified for the HEC as easily as they have done in the past if they had been involved in a proper French or English type leagues?

Proper league? Just because the Pro 12 is a different setup to England/France doesn't mean it's not "proper".

Anyway, no. Finishing in the top 6 of a 12 team league is harder than simply finishing in the top 3 of 4 Irish teams. But in the hypothetical situation that Leinster were in the Premiership I'm sure they'd be in the top 6 every year.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:The national teams take precedence. That's why the unions are in charge. Resting star players sometimes, benefits the national team. Blooding youngsters in a decent competition, instead of buying foreigners, benefits the national team. We have to maximize our small player pools to compete with England and France. That's the whole point of the league.

Personally I like the way we get to see younger players develop in the league. I prefer the attacking style of rugby a lot of teams play. Very few teams in the Premiership or Top 14 play attacking rugby. It's mostly conservative and pragmatic. I also like the way the vast majority of the Leinster squad are local lads and not foreign mercenaries like in Toulon. And I have seen all our stars like O'Driscoll in the flesh play in the league.

I agree that if the international players were playing week in week out it would probably boost attendances. But it wouldn't be good for their welfare. And it wouldn't allow our small number of teams to develop as many younger players

Do you reckon Munster, Leinster or Ulster would have qualified for the HEC as easily as they have done in the past if they had been involved in a proper French or English type leagues?

In the case of Leinster & Munster - definitely. And possibly Blues and O's. And an ever-improving Scarlets. Yes. Every year. Year on year. The English Prem is self over-hyped. This has been categorically proven over the last 5 years at HC and International level. No matter what it means to the players and the fans. The TOP14 is massively over-financed and is awash with foreign stars looking to earn the big bucks, and retire to NZ,SA, Argentina and Oz. They care not a tosh about French Rugby. Same as their cohorts in England. It is directly comparable to the over-hyped English soccer league. And what has it done for the National team? I rest my case.

I dont agree with all you PRO12 bashers. I think it will outgrow both the English and French versions over the next few years, by mere definition of the fact that it contains 4 different countries. It adds more spice. Look at Treviso's progress in a short time. That will grow stronger. Aironi will follow in time. It helps develop players for their leagues, never mind their countries.

It produces deeper, indigenous squads also. Passing time, World recession and its financial constraints, in the other 2 leagues, will come back to bite them on their arses. It is unsustainable. The English Prem has already recognised this in their salary-capping. They are learning. Slowly. The other 2 are far too insular and believe they have better leagues. They do not. Not now. Dont believe your own hype. Money cant buy you everlasting love.

Question. How would the English Prems 2nd string teams do versus Leinsters and Munsters? I think we already know the answer. Not very well. This proves the point that we have deeper squads because of the structure of the PRO12.

I laughed at Tony Booth last weekend, when he said that the English Prem was the most competitive league on the Planet. Laughed my arse off. Bless.

Also. The PRO 12 is far better to watch. Is not sport about entertainment primarily? It is for me. Most of the games in the 2 lesser leagues are drudge to watch. I watch them all. Week-in, week-out. Give me the PRO12 anyday. And it is yet a baby compared to the well established and supported Super-Leagues(sic). What will it be like when it grows up and attains more sponsorshop and investment in it?

Population, spending-power and rugby playing members in England and France? Compared to Scotland, Ireland & Wales? This makes it even more of a success in real prespective. These countries have had to cut and redesign their cloth to suit their measure. They are growing in strength on the back of it. Think about it.

This inherent jealously is not flattering. But it does make me and other real PRO12 fans, inwardly-smile.


In Truth, you cannot directly compare the 3 leagues. So lets stop it shall we?

Gibson wrote:
Is not sport about entertainment primarily?

It's about business mate and involves lots and lots of money.
Have a lie down and think about it.

No its not about money. It's about entertainment, and pride and passion and despair. Money will ruin French rugby, just like it destroyed the soul of English soccer. They can buy anyone from down south. But our plan is to produce better players than they can buy. And it seems so far, in Ireland, playing for your home team means more than French money. To be fair, England has put in a salary cap and young English players are getting a chance. This is good for English rugby.

Here's a few things I'd like to see.

Another Scottish team and another Italian team. This will force the teams from these two nations to compete for Heineken Cup spots again. Make it more competitive still. The playoffs have already made the top half more competitive.

I'd like to see the Italians do well and for the league to get very popular there. Much bigger potential audience in Italy. The Italians are potentially our ticket to much bigger sponsorship and TV money.

Does this child know who he is speaking to?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Gibson wrote:
Is not sport about entertainment primarily?

It's about business mate and involves lots and lots of money.
Have a lie down and think about it.

So, that is your excuse for the drudge they produce week on week? It is big-business, but does that mean it has to suffer as a spectacle? Does that also mean you are happy with it?

Enjoy the paradox mo chara. So long as you are happy with it. That is the main thing.

I wouldn't be.

I see you are brand new so I will cut you a break. Sport is about entertainment. Would you go to watch a Corporate Board-meeting? Actually, having watched some of the over-hyped English Prem and TOP14 games this season... maybe you have a vaild point. Maybe.

Feckless Rogue wrote:No its not about money. It's about entertainment, and pride and passion and despair. Money will ruin French rugby, just like it destroyed the soul of English soccer. They can buy anyone from down south. But our plan is to produce better players than they can buy. And it seems so far, in Ireland, playing for your home team means more than French money. To be fair, England has put in a salary cap and young English players are getting a chance. This is good for English rugby.

Here's a few things I'd like to see.

Another Scottish team and another Italian team. This will force the teams from these two nations to compete for Heineken Cup spots again. Make it more competitive still. The playoffs have already made the top half more competitive.

I'd like to see the Italians do well and for the league to get very popular there. Much bigger potential audience in Italy. The Italians are potentially our ticket to much bigger sponsorship and TV money.

Totally agree. Its a veritable baby when compared to the might of the Anglo French leagues. Also. It will grow stronger by definition. The structure is in place. The big business money will come along with it, as the Italians grow and the Irish Scottish and Welsh sides continue to produce their own non-corporated, indigenous - talent. As will the respective countries involved in it. It is a longer term project if you will. Not a short term, big business fix like the other 2 leagues. 3 HC's in 4 years with 80% indigenous players and shifting upwards? Its pure logic Captain.

Watch and learn ye naysayers.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Do you reckon Munster, Leinster or Ulster would have qualified for the HEC as easily as they have done in the past if they had been involved in a proper French or English type leagues?

Proper league? Just because the Pro 12 is a different setup to England/France doesn't mean it's not "proper".

Anyway, no. Finishing in the top 6 of a 12 team league is harder than simply finishing in the top 3 of 4 Irish teams. But in the hypothetical situation that Leinster were in the Premiership I'm sure they'd be in the top 6 every year.

In the top 6?

I cant see an English team in it, stopping us from winning it or at least making the Final - continually. Saracens? Had em. Tigers? Had em. Saints? Had em. Maybe Quins, in this form, would give us a run. As long as it did not interefere with our more important yearly HC buisness, I am sure that both could be negotiated successfully .

Next.

Love your optimism Gibson. I'm sure the English and French love their leagues and fair play to them. They have a proud history and all that.

But the Pro 12 is perfect for us. We've been producing a lot of talent since it began. And the rate is accelerating. We're not far off being able to win a Heineken Cup without any foreign players. Unthinkable ten years ago. I think only some of the Super 15 teams can produce more quality players than Leinster are. The Welsh regions are producing terrific young players too. And they're playing top level rugby already. Youngsters with equal potential in Toulon or Paris just won't be getting the game time to develop. They'll be spectators at an expensive "feather my retirement fund party" for foreign mercenaries.

The last Lions tour was dominated by Welsh and Irish selections. And the next one will be too. But I do think some English clubs are on the right track. Look at the classy English players at Saints. Look how Quins are playing. The salary cap is forcing teams to go for the cheaper option of using young local talent. Better for English rugby.

The pro 12 teams do take the HC more seriously than the league but surely that's the way it should be. The HC is the greatest club competition we have and other than your national team winning the world cup it ranks as the competition you most want to win.
Playing international games outside of the window can take something away from the league but it adds to international experience and helps the youngsters play competitive rugby bringing through the next generation.

I like the Aviva, I like most rugby, it may be a little more competitive but it isn't designed to develop the youngsters coming through and doesn't produce the fast paced free flowing rugby the pro 12 does.

I can't comment on the T14 as I haven't seen much of it.

I don't know what this fixation is with the AP? I already think that the PRO12 is arguably a better league. We have some of the strongest teams in Europe in it and some of the best players in the world.

Is it perfect? No.

There are too many poor referees and officials.

The quality drops significantly at times due to the resting of international players.

We need to make HEC qualification based on overall league position and not position within that particular union.

However the intensity and quality in some of the bigger games is as high or higher than anything in the other European leagues and there are a lot more genuinely competitive 50/50 games IMO.

There's probably about 7 or 8 teams who have genuine play off ambitions, I'm not convinced that the AP is this competitive and there are a lot of poor/average teams in the AP just scrapping it out to avoid relegation and only a few genuine title contenders.

I think the PRO12 is a great league and will only get better with time.

I don't know why some of you always have to turn it into a league v league arguement. I've stated that I'm a pro 12 fan. But I think the league lacks that certian something that makes it really worth winning.

I compared how much it means to fans and teams winning the prem and top 14, not the leagues themselves.

The pro 12 title means less to the fans of pro 12 teams, than the prem title to prem fans, and top 14 title to french fans. It is how to improve the value of the pro 12 title this article is about, not comparing leagues.

Gibson wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Do you reckon Munster, Leinster or Ulster would have qualified for the HEC as easily as they have done in the past if they had been involved in a proper French or English type leagues?

Proper league? Just because the Pro 12 is a different setup to England/France doesn't mean it's not "proper".

Anyway, no. Finishing in the top 6 of a 12 team league is harder than simply finishing in the top 3 of 4 Irish teams. But in the hypothetical situation that Leinster were in the Premiership I'm sure they'd be in the top 6 every year.

In the top 6?

I cant see an English team in it, stopping us from winning it or at least making the Final - continually. Saffacens? Had em. Tigers? Had em. Saints? Had em. Maybe Quins, in this form, would give us a run. As long as it did not interefere with our more important yearly HC buisness, I am sure that both could be negotiated successfully .

Next.

Gibson why resort to personal insults or should I repeatedly shout disparaging remarks about your club? I am awfully tempted Your arrogance is utterly despicable. Or would something like Gobson be more preferable? Or perhaps something much worse/more appropriate?

I have been graceful in defeat despite being humiliated by Leinster last season.. All we get from the Leinster fans like yourself is contempt and haughty arrogance. You should be ashamed in yourself.

The one thing that Gibbo is not - is arrogant.

He's proud of his Province and his country.

Rugby life is good in Ireland (pro-tem )

Portnoy well obviously he is or he wouldn't say haughty comments. Is being jingoistic good in your eyes Portnoy? I don't expect you to agree with me.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Proper league? Just because the Pro 12 is a different setup to England/France doesn't mean it's not "proper".

Anyway, no. Finishing in the top 6 of a 12 team league is harder than simply finishing in the top 3 of 4 Irish teams. But in the hypothetical situation that Leinster were in the Premiership I'm sure they'd be in the top 6 every year.

Not sure I agree with this comment. Glasgow V Leinster is a brilliant example. They have played twice this year. Once in the Pro12 and once in the HC.

I created a post regarding this fixture : Click to view 606v2 post

These are some of the key quotes in that thread :

roddersm wrote:You do rarely see Leinster fire on all cylinders in the league but then they don't have to. The derby with Munster is maybe the exception.

asoreleftshoulder wrote: the the number of games BoD has played for Leinster the majority of them should be in the league as there are more league games available.The numbers are 75 to 68 in favor of the Heineken so thats just one obvious example.

These quotes just go to show how uninterested the big Irish teams in particular are about the pro 12. The annoying thing is even playing their "B" sides they do seem to be at the top or near enough the top come the end of the season.

The Pro12 needs to change because to be honest it is a League that a lot of teams don't take seriously. As for Leisnter finishing in the top 6 of the Aviva, unlikely I'd say especialy if they are fielding the teams they frequently employ to Crush the smaller pro 12 teams.

beshoclked,

I only say it because I've met the man.

A friendlier, sensitive and more gracious man I've yet to meet in my life, I'd be struggling to recall.

Fair enough Portnoy. I am basing my comments on his jingoistic thoughts.

You are entitled to your own opinion. I just disagree. It shouldn't be the AP vs the Pro 12 vs the Top 14 because they all have their pros and cons.

If you want me to explain exactly why I think he is being jingoistic and haughty then I will.

People tend to prefer the league with their own team in it. It's not much harder than that. People will then cherry pick the best bits and ignore the worst and end up spouting nonsence like Gibbo earlier (the Salary cap has been in place pretty much since professionalism started, they're learning slowly?)

Oh and Gibbo, fair play to you jetting around England to catch all the games since you say you watch them all but only half are televised. glad to hear of you supporting English rugby (although if it's that much of a drudge why do it?).

And my views on professional sport is that it's primarily a competition. Then a business. The entertainment is simply a byproduct.

beshocked wrote:Fair enough Portnoy. I am basing my comments on his jingoistic thoughts.

You are entitled to your own opinion. I just disagree. It shouldn't be the AP vs the Pro 12 vs the Top 14 because they all have their pros and cons.

If you want me to explain exactly why I think he is being jingoistic and haughty then I will.

If you are referring to

"I cant see an English team in it, stopping us from winning it or at least making the Final - continually. Saffacens? Had em. Tigers? Had em. Saints? Had em. Maybe Quins, in this form, would give us a run. As long as it did not interefere with our more important yearly HC buisness, I am sure that both could be negotiated successfully . zen

Next. "

Then I can't really disagree. The IRFU have a much better grasp as to how to optimise their sides' HEC opportunities than the RFU.

You can't really disagree on it being jingoistic or you can't really disagree with the statement? You don't get it to do you Portnoy? The HC is one competition.

If you agree with haughty and jingoistic comments then you are just as bad as Gibson.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

roddersm wrote:You do rarely see Leinster fire on all cylinders in the league but then they don't have to. The derby with Munster is maybe the exception.

asoreleftshoulder wrote: the the number of games BoD has played for Leinster the majority of them should be in the league as there are more league games available.The numbers are 75 to 68 in favor of the Heineken so thats just one obvious example.

These quotes just go to show how uninterested the big Irish teams in particular are about the pro 12. The annoying thing is even playing their "B" sides they do seem to be at the top or near enough the top come the end of the season.

The Pro12 needs to change because to be honest it is a League that a lot of teams don't take seriously. As for Leisnter finishing in the top 6 of the Aviva, unlikely I'd say especialy if they are fielding the teams they frequently employ to Crush the smaller pro 12 teams.

Radge if you are going to lift quotes from other threads you could at least take the full quote.

What I suggested was that Leinster do take the Rabo seriously but peak for the big games. They are strong enough to rotate their squad and still be title contendors.

To be perfectly honest I believe they could do the same in the AP and to say they wouldn't be top 6 is nonsence. Most of the Rabo sides would do pretty well in the AP I think and Vice versa.

HammerofThunor wrote:People tend to prefer the league with their own team in it. It's not much harder than that. People will then cherry pick the best bits and ignore the worst and end up spouting nonsence like Gibbo earlier (the Salary cap has been in place pretty much since professionalism started, they're learning slowly?)

Oh and Gibbo, fair play to you jetting around England to catch all the games since you say you watch them all but only half are televised. glad to hear of you supporting English rugby (although if it's that much of a drudge why do it?).

And my views on professional sport is that it's primarily a competition. Then a business. The entertainment is simply a byproduct.

good post Hammer, there is no point in comparing apples with pears: by essence they are different, sames goes with comparing clubs and provinces. One will always be biaised towards his own domestic league. I am relatively happy with what I see in the Top 14 as an "entertainment" (although it could be much better given the support it gets) , at the same time I am aware that it's far from perfect but this is where the teams I know and follow play every weekend so of course for me its the best league.

HammerofThunor wrote:And my views on professional sport is that it's primarily a competition. Then a business. The entertainment is simply a byproduct.

Fair point but I would say its more of a circular dependency than a byproduct. The entertainment factor is a prerequisite for a sport to be professional and thus a business.

If hard to get away with saying Leinster don't take the League seriously when they topped it in 2008, topped it in 2010 (lost the final), came 2nd in 2011 (lost the final again) and are joint top now. Yes they can do it using their whole squad and young academy graduates. That just shows the strength of their academy. And it's giving valuable experience to players who'll strengthen the Irish team in the future. We're aiming to win it every year.

I haven't said the Pro 12 is more intense or competitive than the other two leagues. It's not. I'm saying it's perfect for us small nations. We develop young players better than they do in the other leagues, we peak for the Heineken Cup and don't burn out our small player base, which helps our national teams. The IRFU are in control so our stars are looked after, with the national team at the fore of the unions thinking. The Pro 12 obviously has some problems. Welsh attendances. This can be fixed because the Welsh clearly love rugby. Scottish attendances. Not sure here. Do enough Scots even like the game?

It's interesting that us Leinster fans seem to be the most enthusiastic about the league. And supporters from the lower sides with lower attendances are less happy with it. But it simply has to be ring fenced for us. So the fear of relegation will never be there. And teams from all four unions have to qualify for the Heineken Cup. That's the point of the Heineken Cup. It's for the 6 unions. So Heineken Cup qualification will never be as competitive for us.

If those two things can't ever be changed then what can be changed? Someone said the unions should be less restrictive on internationals appearances. I actually agree here. The IRFU was a bit to over zealous and rigid, especially last season. Even specifying how many minutes a player can play. I remember Leinster being behind with 20 minutes to go last year. But Schmidt had to haul off players like Heaslip after the hour which didn't exactly help our chances of coming back. Some of the Irish internationals have even moaned that they want to be playing more. For some players, restricting their game time actually damages their form.

Kingshu - posters are comparing the respective leagues because you have done so in your article and indeed in the thread title!

To answer your question I don't think the Unions have too much input as the PRO12 is operating very well as a viable competition that provides plenty of entertainment and interest. The fact that teams are forced to rest players adds to the interest rather than detract from it. If a "lesser" team is flogging their first XV every week and are still losing, what incentive is there for the coaches to bring in youth, or for crowds to continue to come? The uncertainty of changing teams means that fans of a losing team can hope for a win against a weakened opposition and still go along to support them. Equally fans of a winning team that is being changed will want to be the 16th man to help them maintain their run.

The PRO12 is fit for purpose but as Rodders suggests, it would be improved by having more HEC qualification on merit e.g. the top 2 Irish and Welsh teams plus the top Scottish and Italian team would qualify by right, but the remaining four should be determined by league position.

If a team can consistently finish in the top 4 of their league by playing their “B” team then perhaps the other teams in the league need to take things more seriously?

We do take it seriously Mick its just your 'b' team is better than our 'a' team!

Frankly I far prefer the Pro 12 to the English Premiership, (I won't comment on the Top 14 because I really don't know a lot about it).

Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy do not have the players (as individual nations) to have a large competitive league, neither do the Unions have the ability to generate large amounts of money to finance more teams than they already have.

Basically these 4 countries have all pooled their teams and realised that having their best players compete against each other, provides a strong and healthy competition for their players to develop in.

The Pro 12 is a far better than people give it credit for, it has MORE internationals than ANY other league by some margin.
As no team can get relegated coaches can afford to give younger players games and develop them without any serious risk to their jobs.

How often do you see a coach getting sacked from a Pro 12 team?
Paul turned got sacked at the Dragons for a non rugby offense, Dai young left the Blues to go to Wasps, Lyn Jones got the sack at the Ospreys but I think that;s pretty much it.
Other than that I think Rob Moffatt at Edinburgh is the only casualty in recent memory.
In England it is more like football because of the pressure involved.

A few people mentioned that in the Pro 12 the Unions can rest players, however it is worth noting the rugby union season lasts 42 weeks and no players may appear in more than 30 games, regardless of which country that player, plays in.
So every player (in theory) will only play in 2 games out of 3 games, at the most anyway.

Top post Alyn

Now if we could only sort out the refs in the league . . . . .

Well said Alyn.

roddersm wrote:We need to make HEC qualification based on overall league position and not position within that particular union.

No what we need to do is apply a bit of common sense to the debate on the qualification.
Scotland and Italy have only 2 teams and are the weaker aspect (at the moment) of the Pro 12 league, both teams need to be included in the European Cup. Wales and Ireland have 4 teams each, with both their top 3 teams qualifying, and which ever of their 4th placed teams finishes higher getting the final spot, historically it has been the Welsh who normally have 4 teams, however this season Connacht have the 4th spot.

What amazes me is that despite their being only 6 pools, the English (or French) are allowed 7 teams! In pool 6 this season we have Harlequins AND Gloucester.. How "European" is it for you to have a English derby in the pool stages?
Surely it would make far more sense for Wales and Ireland to have 4 teams each, and England and France to have 6 each, so all the teams are playing against opposition from a different country, at least in the pool stages?

Wish list

1. Better refs
2. One more Scottish team
3. One more Italian team
4. Scots/Italians to bring more top internationals home.
5. Resist French money and keep the best Welsh and Irish players.
6. Increase attendances
7. Leinster to stop loosing playoff finals

Feckless Rogue wrote:Wish list

1. Better refs
2. One more Scottish team
3. One more Italian team
4. Scots/Italians to bring more top internationals home.
5. Resist French money and keep the best Welsh and Irish players.
6. Increase attendances
7. Leinster to stop loosing playoff finals

1. All out ban on Irish refs at the Liberty stadium

2 & 3. A 12 team second division of the Pro 12 set up, but with no promotion or relegation.
It would probably have to be semi pro.

Wales:
Wrexham RFC - playing out of the Race Course stadium
Colywn Bay RFC - playing out of Eirias Park (RGC 1404 stadium)
Bangor RFC
Newtown RFC

* Wales to promote rugby in North Wales, Clwyd is the second most populous province in Wales (behind Gwent) with Wrexham and Colwyn Bay are the 2 largest towns in the area. both towns already have "A Licence" stadiums
Powys would have Newtown as their representative, while Gwynedd would have Bangor City RFC as theirs.

Scotland
Scottish Borders
Caledonia Reds
Pretty obvious to include both these old defunct Scottish teams, the borders badly needs a representative team. Caledonia does actually exist from what I can tell but it is only age group rugby, so everything exists below it.
Ressurecting these teams needn't be too hard, just move the games to various club stadiums within the area of the team. For example the Borders could do a game at Melrose, then Kelso, then Galashields. Hell you could even get the club side to represent the "Province" for that one game, so in effect you's have the Kelso club side, playing in Kelso and trying to win points for the Borders region. All the clubs would then contribute to it's success and get an extra home game for the club coffers!
Then have an invitational squad for the away games. I can't see most players passing up the chance of a weekend in Wales, Ireland and Italy for a mini tour!

Ireland
Ulster Ravens
Leinster A
Munster A
Connacht A
Pretty obvious really, though again the games could be spread round Irish club teams in the province to help the clubs generate income.

Italy
Praetorians Roma
Duchi Nord-Ovest
The future planned Italian professional teams.

Alyn we already have the British and Irish Cup.

AlynDavies wrote:A few people mentioned that in the Pro 12 the Unions can rest players, however it is worth noting the rugby union season lasts 42 weeks and no players may appear in more than 30 games, regardless of which country that player, plays in.
So every player (in theory) will only play in 2 games out of 3 games, at the most anyway.

I hadn't heard of a global limitation on player's games - is that an IRB regulation/guideline?