Do the Unions have to much input into the PRO12, to ever make it a rival for the Prem or Top14?

First topic message reminder :

Currently I believe that the Pro 12 contains teams that are at least the equal of teams in the Prem or Top 14, however as a competition I believe it lags way behind these other two.
For Munster last year it was a meer consolation prize, and never counted as much by Ospreys or Leinster when they won it.

IMO, the order of things a club wants to win should be H-cup, domestic League, Amlin cup. However in the Pro 12 the Amlin may possilby rank ahead of the Pro 12.

Compare how happy Saracens fans were to win the Prem and that the French Captain said winning the Top 14 was near as important as winning the World cup, both these leagues are geared to be competative, and winning the H-Cup is only slightly better than winning the League. Compare to the Pro 12 the H-cup counts far and above the Pro 12 title, and the Pro 12 title doesn't matter as much to players and fans of the Pro 12 teams, as the Prem or top 14 does to the players and fans of the Prem and Top 14 teams.

The Pro 12 is not as competitive, and can be viewed as a bit better than a development league, to help young players develop and others to peak for the H-cup and international games, as such it will always struggle to be in the same calss as the Prem and Top 14.

Due to this I believe fans can see it as little more than a series of slightly than better friendlies, and hence will struggle to attract big crowds. All the Unions get to call on their own players more often than in other leagues, meaning they miss more games, meaning the league is a little diminished as a result.

Additional to this IRFU have the player rest periods, where most centrally contracted players only play about 4 out of every 6 games (depending on age, fitness etc), its down to the coach to decide when to rest the player, but mostly they keep them for h-cup games and rest them durning Pro 12 games.

The WRU has added another international game outside the international windows, meaning players will miss more than normal this season, and the SRU before the end of last season listed a numer of players that weren't to play anymore games in case they got injuried before the worldcup.

I don't believe that the Pro 12 will ever mean as much, as the Top 14 or the Prem, as long as the Unions have so much say in it, it will not then ever be taken as serious by the fans, or matter as much, and therefore will never pull in the crowds on a regular basis.

Do you think the Unions have to much input into the Pro 12, and have they a detrimental effect on the League as a competition, or is it balanced well with player development, and a viable competition?

AlynDavies wrote:Surely it would make far more sense for Wales and Ireland to have 4 teams each, and England and France to have 6 each, so all the teams are playing against opposition from a different country, at least in the pool stages?

great...
please have a deep think about that and you might realise that it would mean that wales and ireland would have all their teams getting HC spots whatever their actual level is. why not put all the pro12 in the HC while you are it?

a solution could be to reduce the number of teams to 14 with 4 french 4 english, 2 irish; 2 welsh and one scot + one italian then you will get rid of the likes of castres and gloucester.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:As long the Unions input is to the national team benefit then I don't care. The National team is the most important. If you want to see those changes then all club rugby would have to be played before 6 Nations, Autumn Series and World Cups. That is the only way I see it being possible but I can not see a NH season restructure any time soon.

In England and France, there is a lot of players with a lot of clubs, more than anyone else in the world. They also generate the most money and each team has a strong fan base. Their towns/cities are big enough entities for that fan and player base. If this didn't make their leagues successful nothing would. The difference between these two sets of people and the ones that ply their trade in the Pro 12 is denial. Any French or English team not able to win the H-cup or be competitive at it will say they were prioritising the league all along; where as you feel sides of the Pro12 always treat the H-cup as the bees knees. So we should, it is a great competition.

Why don't you care?
Surely you must believe that a proper competitive Pro12 league would be hugely beneficial to Welsh rugby?

French and English sides have in the past put their domestic competitions first. I believe Quins rested players in the HEC 2 seasons ago preferring to concentrate on the league.

I just clearly mentioned why I did not care. We are alread in a competitive Pro12 League and it has been hugely beneficial to Welsh rugby (scottish and Italian rugby aswell).

Yes that old chesnut. Some teams will prioritise making it into the top 6 of their respective leagues because if you are in the top 6 then you are in the H-Cup and everyone fights to stay in the top 6? Coincidence here?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:I hadn't heard of a global limitation on player's games - is that an IRB regulation/guideline?

Yes it was set up for safety reasons because of the injuries sustained at the start of professionalism as a result of over playing, some Welsh players were playing 3 games a week for example, with the Welsh league, the mid week Anglo-Welsh league and Swalec Cup games.
I remember Swansea playing an English side on the Wednesday, playing a league game on the Saturday and a Swalec game 24 hours later on the Sunday! that;s why you had players like Neil Jenkins, Scott Gibbs, Scott Quinell and Robert Howley's bodies being in pieces by their early 30's.

red_stag wrote:Alyn we already have the British and Irish Cup.

Or.... We could just set up a British and Irish Cup...
But have North Wales teams in it instead!

whocares wrote:
great...
please have a deep think about that and you might realise that it would mean that wales and ireland would have all their teams getting HC spots whatever their actual level is. why not put all the pro12 in the HC while you are it?

a solution could be to reduce the number of teams to 14 with 4 french 4 english, 2 irish; 2 welsh and one scot + one italian then you will get rid of the likes of castres and gloucester.

Well you cant reduce the teams to 14 for a start, you could have 16 teams, 4 pools of 4, but I can't fathom how a 14 team tournament could work.

The basic argument I'm making is that Europe should be about playing opposition from different countries, I fail to see how having 7 French or English clubs in a competition with 6 pools works. Harelquins can play Gloucester in the Guiness Premier.
I understand how you would feel it is unfair to have so many Pro 12 clubs in the tournament, but there are only 6 European countries who can compete in it, unless we asked South Africa if they fancied putting a few sides in?
I guess we could go England, France 5 each, South Africa 4 teams, Ireland and Wales 3 each, Scotland and Italy 2 each?

Easy Approach:

England 4
France 4
Wales 2
Ireland 2
Scotland 1
Itlay 1
HEC winning country gets extra place
Amlin winning country gets extra place

red_stag wrote:Easy Approach:

England 4
France 4
Wales 2
Ireland 2
Scotland 1
Itlay 1
HEC winning country gets extra place
Amlin winning country gets extra place

yes nice and easy (14 teams was a bit of dumb idea from myself !)

Alyn
just had a brief look around - the English EPS agreement limits players to 32 games a season, not 30. I can't find any limit for other players in English rugby, but I've not looked too hard.

Also, the British and Irish Cup is an unsustainable competition, largely due to the travel/accommodation costs being too expensive for Tier 2 clubs. There would have to be fairly significant subsidies (or some brilliant money-making marketing) for a Pro12 second division to succeed.

red_stag wrote:Easy Approach:

England 4
France 4
Wales 2
Ireland 2
Scotland 1
Itlay 1
HEC winning country gets extra place
Amlin winning country gets extra place

That would also mean reduced sponsorship and tv rights money, if were getting great rates for a 24 team tournament why change it?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Alyn
just had a brief look around - the English EPS agreement limits players to 32 games a season, not 30. I can't find any limit for other players in English rugby, but I've not looked too hard.

Maybe it;s 32 then, but I'm sure it is 30, though it might just be for Wales.

I don't get why every season there's a debate about changing the format of the HC. It's flippin' brilliant as it is! Leave it alone, it ain't broke.

Bazman1 wrote:I don't get why every season there's a debate about changing the format of the HC. It's flippin' brilliant as it is! Leave it alone, it ain't broke.

+1

It's the best tournament in rugby. It amazes me that people are constantly talking about changing it on here.

Feckless Rogue wrote:The national teams take precedence. That's why the unions are in charge. Resting star players sometimes, benefits the national team. Blooding youngsters in a decent competition, instead of buying foreigners, benefits the national team. We have to maximize our small player pools to compete with England and France. That's the whole point of the league.

Personally I like the way we get to see younger players develop in the league. I prefer the attacking style of rugby a lot of teams play. Very few teams in the Premiership or Top 14 play attacking rugby. It's mostly conservative and pragmatic. I also like the way the vast majority of the Leinster squad are local lads and not foreign mercenaries like in Toulon. And I have seen all our stars like O'Driscoll in the flesh play in the league.

I agree that if the international players were playing week in week out it would probably boost attendances. But it wouldn't be good for their welfare. And it wouldn't allow our small number of teams to develop as many younger players

Wish the rest of us could see some of BOD in the flesh.
Discovered an interesting statistic today. In the 2009-2010 season BOD featured 6 times in the Magners; 4 home and 2 away both of these being against Irish opposition, Connacht and Ulster. Was he injured, was he simply rested or doesn't he like travelling?

Gibson wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Gibson wrote:
Is not sport about entertainment primarily?

It's about business mate and involves lots and lots of money.
Have a lie down and think about it.

So, that is your excuse for the drudge they produce week on week? It is big-business, but does that mean it has to suffer as a spectacle? Does that also mean you are happy with it?

Enjoy the paradox mo chara. So long as you are happy with it. That is the main thing.

I wouldn't be.

I see you are brand new so I will cut you a break. Sport is about entertainment. Would you go to watch a Corporate Board-meeting? Actually, having watched some of the over-hyped English Prem and TOP14 games this season... maybe you have a vaild point. Maybe.

Very generous of you.
I should actually revise my earlier post with regards to rugby being a business. In the case of the Welsh sides if they were just businesses they would most probably have folded by now.

Morgannwg wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Why don't you care?
Surely you must believe that a proper competitive Pro12 league would be hugely beneficial to Welsh rugby?

French and English sides have in the past put their domestic competitions first. I believe Quins rested players in the HEC 2 seasons ago preferring to concentrate on the league.

I just clearly mentioned why I did not care. We are alread in a competitive Pro12 League and it has been hugely beneficial to Welsh rugby (scottish and Italian rugby aswell).

Yes that old chesnut. Some teams will prioritise making it into the top 6 of their respective leagues because if you are in the top 6 then you are in the H-Cup and everyone fights to stay in the top 6? Coincidence here?

So everyone fighting to get in the top 6 would make the league even more competitive again than the Rabo.

After reading your wonderful and very interesting contributions, I applaud you posters of all nations having a serious debate with hardly an errant word amongst you, my thoughts are that I do agree with the OP, I think we have all agreed with him at different times since the start of the Celtic league.

I also agree that the league is in its infancy, though i dont doubt that similar to the HEC, which once upon a time was a reasonably mediocre competition, the Rabo 12 has become a better and tougher league to win year by year.

This also allies to my agreeing with another valid point made that it is designed to benefit our smaller nations, advance our youth, give them necessary experience and equip them for the best of themselvess at the highest level they can reach be it regional, national or Lions.

If an infant league, progressively becoming tougher, mimicked the HEC, Likewise became tougher, then in four or five seasons time it will be a league we are all proud of.

One thing that I take pride in with the Rabo, is that it's design is to encourage some of the greatest aesthetics in rugby. To encourage the young, encourage other nations, to creat an environment where players can express themselves and for all nations involved to share.

So do the unions have to much input. No, what they and the regions/provinces have started to creat will eventually serve the unions the regions/provinces and fans alike. But all good things come to those who wait.

"Professionalism is taking its time to learn about patience, but when it finally accepts it, we will look around us and see its reward"!

Cardiff Dave wrote:
So everyone fighting to get in the top 6 would make the league even more competitive again than the Rabo.

Really?

Remind us again why they want to be in the top 6, wouldn't have anything to do with getting to feature in the premier european competition would it? If they're so more competitive than that of Rabo how come all the Rabo teams have turned over French and English opposition in the opening rounds?

Our league is evolving well, if it isn't broke then don't fix it.....

Since the Celtic League was first established 11 seasons ago only ONE french team (Toulouse) has managed to win the Heineken Cup.

I see I have started a wee discussion back a few posts. I was not being arrogant. Just telling it like I see it - mixed with a tad of that English/French exaggeration, based on a not so silent inbuilt and naive arrogance. I did this to redress the default and disparaging attitude to the PRO12. It's not nice to hear is it?

I love rugby with a passion. Hugely. The fans, the disparate club-cultures and the individual history they all carry with them. The fans interaction, the knowledge gleaned, friends gained, the banter, the pints, the pies, the towns, the venues. I love it. All of it. Learned so much from it over the years. And not just about rugby. So much more involved in it. To call it just a business, is an anathema to me and all loyal, travelling and long-suffering fans, and to sport itself. I mean why bother, if what is the truth for certain posters was true for us all? I watch every possible game I can out there. Take a great interest in the English Prem. Its a great league. As is the TOP14. Both hugely different in style and content.

The PRO12 is not yet in the same league, on certain levels, as the aforementioned, due to the sheer disparity in demographics, history and the long standing fan-bases available to them. With the strong exceptions of Munster & Leinster. As of now. That will change over time. I can already see it happening with the Welsh regions as they turn more to Welsh-based players. See the RWC for the progress made by a hugely young & talented, PRO12 nurtured side. Scarlets are an excellent example of feeding this.

I hope it spreads to the Scottish sides and their national side. As for Italy - it' s just a matter of time, experience, growing- interest and subsequently, investment.

The TOP14 and English Prem are not as far ahead of a PRO12, which is yet 12 years old, as a large section of home media-biased posters, surmise. Fact is, it is a completely different entity unto itself and is not shackled in the way the TOP14 and English Prem are. I think this is the crux of the matter. The 3 leagues cannot be directly compared. Not yet.

I respect all teams, their fans and their individual cultures. To not do so, goes against everything that sport,and especially the rugby ethos - stands for. It then becomes pro-soccer. A meaningless, nightmare scenario. My comments were meant to provoke a response and hopefully a more balanced and reasoned dicussion based on mutual respect. And not one made from an inbuilt, arrogant stance, fueled and over-hyped by their media and sucked up and believed by the fans of both those leagues and countries. It is certainly not my way. Nor will it ever be.

Continually and smugly assuming, that the PRO12 is a much inferior product, is as bad as the jibe I made about the best teams in England and France. I was making a point. Sure the PRO12 does not have relegation. Nor should it. It is fair representation of 4 country's rugby clubs and regions.Helps develop and strengthen player quality and depth within those countries involved in it. It works as designed. Improves rugby levels in all the countries who play in it. Internationally also. Not the finished article but growing nicely. And at its own pace.


There will always be a 50/50 outcome between the top Prem Leagues teams and the top PRO12 sides. Statistics are presently in favour of the PRO12. But, that can change in a season or 2. And it will do continually. All things go in cycles and will run their natural or forced corporate, cash-rich - course. I just happen to strongly believe, that the PRO12 model is on a better long-term course than their European rivals.

Saints - I have massive respect for as a club. Shared time with their magnificent fans and love the way they strive to play the game. And the way their fans take victory and defeat. They blew us away in Cardiff in the 1st 40 minutes of the HC Final. Went undefeated and crusied through through their group and naturally - all the way to the Final. The 2nd half was a minor miracle of self-belief mixed with anger, at being shafted, and a man called Jonny Sexton. Another score for Saints in the Final, at the start of the 2nd half and that was game, set and match over. It hurt their self-belief and that has been apparent this season in the HC. They will grow stronger for it. Too much talent not to. As have all teams who have been so close in the past. Its a major part of it all. Tigers could also have so easily made the SF and Final, instead of Leinster. Very small margins at that level sealed the deal. Respect.

Saracens are the English Champs for good reason. Not loved by all, for their heavily Saffer-based contingent, but to be respected nonetheless. It is, I believe, the hardest league to win of all 3.

Tigers, well... Tigers are what defines the best of English & European rugby. Hard, forward-orientated, full of nous built up over years and essential for the game. I love their culture and knowledgable fans. Top notch, in my own, on the road - experience. They are the Munster of England.

Quins are showing the best form in Europe right now. They now define, after a bad credibility road-crash, everything I personally love about the game. They play with a smile on their faces and their heads up. English Prem, PRO12, TOP14, or not. I love watching them and its great to see them - and their fans, back where they belong.

Toulouse are what every rugby club on the Planet should strive to be. At all levels. Magnificent to their very core. From their fan-base, to every player who dons the jersey. Noves defines and protects this ethos. ASM are getting there. Toulon & Stade however.... see my post on the TOP14.

Beshocked and Thunor, 2 quality posters who know their onions, I am surprised ye 2 took the bait so easily. I expected it to come from different quarters. FAIL Gibson. But, there is a lot of truth in what I said, amongst the barbs. You both know that. My apologies for stoking the wrong fires.

And Thunor, I have for eons, and still do, watch and totally engross myself in, an unhealthy amount of rubgy live around Europe and on TV, YOUTUBE, Rugbydump, YOUPORN, you name it - far too much for a man in his sexual prime...

I will always sacrifice my virtual virginity in defence of the PRO12. I make no apology for that. As it is interesting to see the reaction when the shoe is on the other foot.

Peace, Love, mutual Respect and a better rugby Understanding amongst us all.

Gobson.

P.S. Portnoy, I love you, you Tiger dervish.

red_stag wrote:Since the Celtic League was first established 11 seasons ago only ONE french team (Toulouse) has managed to win the Heineken Cup.

Man. That statistic is a powerful one. And with all that big-corporate buisness money behind em too, eh?

maestegmafia wrote:After reading your wonderful and very interesting contributions, I applaud you posters of all nations having a serious debate with hardly an errant word amongst you, my thoughts are that I do agree with the OP, I think we have all agreed with him at different times since the start of the Celtic league.

I also agree that the league is in its infancy, though i dont doubt that similar to the HEC, which once upon a time was a reasonably mediocre competition, the Rabo 12 has become a better and tougher league to win year by year.

This also allies to my agreeing with another valid point made that it is designed to benefit our smaller nations, advance our youth, give them necessary experience and equip them for the best of themselvess at the highest level they can reach be it regional, national or Lions.

If an infant league, progressively becoming tougher, mimicked the HEC, Likewise became tougher, then in four or five seasons time it will be a league we are all proud of.

One thing that I take pride in with the Rabo, is that it's design is to encourage some of the greatest aesthetics in rugby. To encourage the young, encourage other nations, to creat an environment where players can express themselves and for all nations involved to share.

So do the unions have to much input. No, what they and the regions/provinces have started to creat will eventually serve the unions the regions/provinces and fans alike. But all good things come to those who wait.

"Professionalism is taking its time to learn about patience, but when it finally accepts it, we will look around us and see its reward"!

I'm writing this stuff down for later. Excellent post.

maestegmafia wrote:One thing that I take pride in with the Rabo, is that it's design is to encourage some of the greatest aesthetics in rugby. To encourage the young, encourage other nations, to creat an environment where players can express themselves and for all nations involved to share.

I'm curious as to how. If you mean no relagation and almost automatic HEC qualification then surely that's going along with the idea the league doesn't matter so the teams don't worry about losing. If it's something else it would be interesting to hear - also I've watched a lot of the Pro12 and a lot of the English rugby and I've seen great games in both and utter Poopie games in both. In previous seasons there have been on average more tries in the Jeff and closer winning margins. These two things are often associated with 'good' rugby. I'm not sure how things have changed now, I think they dropped a bit after the release laws interpretation changed at the ruck.

To the other poster who was questioning why the Jeff clubs fight to get in the top 6 if they don't care as much about Europe. It's pretty easy. Money. They get a lot more more from the HEC than the ACC. And the Quins thing was about the forced rest periods for EPS players. Quins chose the game in the HEC against the Blues to rest their players (only two)

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:One thing that I take pride in with the Rabo, is that it's design is to encourage some of the greatest aesthetics in rugby. To encourage the young, encourage other nations, to creat an environment where players can express themselves and for all nations involved to share.

I'm curious as to how. If you mean no relagation and almost automatic HEC qualification then surely that's going along with the idea the league doesn't matter so the teams don't worry about losing. If it's something else it would be interesting to hear - also I've watched a lot of the Pro12 and a lot of the English rugby and I've seen great games in both and utter Poopie games in both. In previous seasons there have been on average more tries in the Jeff and closer winning margins. These two things are often associated with 'good' rugby. I'm not sure how things have changed now, I think they dropped a bit after the release laws interpretation changed at the ruck.

Yes you are right that to a degree the Rabo or Super 15 is a safe environment. Teams are pretty much guaranteed a certain level of competition with out the financial predicament that the constant threat of relegation arises, but that is the nature of regional/province/franchise rugby. The competitiveness works in a different way, but to the same or possibly, in regards to international rugby, a better way for the individual players and the end result of a competitive, talented international team.

There is a simple pyramid of progression for players of ability that focuses on the ultimate goal of playing International rugby and all the rewards that come with it.

The competition is to get out of the premiership not through your teams prolonged performance over the season but through your own personal performance and get a contract with a regional/province team. From there the next step is International level.

The argument that Rabo's big downside being that those players dont have the serious threat of relegation to motivate them is absolute rubbish. For one, the relegation threat only ever applies to one or two clubs at the very bottom of the league, and two, the chances of relegation due to the governing bodies criteria's create a situation, are very very slim as it is so difficult for a lower league side to get promoted.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:The national teams take precedence. That's why the unions are in charge. Resting star players sometimes, benefits the national team. Blooding youngsters in a decent competition, instead of buying foreigners, benefits the national team. We have to maximize our small player pools to compete with England and France. That's the whole point of the league.

Personally I like the way we get to see younger players develop in the league. I prefer the attacking style of rugby a lot of teams play. Very few teams in the Premiership or Top 14 play attacking rugby. It's mostly conservative and pragmatic. I also like the way the vast majority of the Leinster squad are local lads and not foreign mercenaries like in Toulon. And I have seen all our stars like O'Driscoll in the flesh play in the league.

I agree that if the international players were playing week in week out it would probably boost attendances. But it wouldn't be good for their welfare. And it wouldn't allow our small number of teams to develop as many younger players

Wish the rest of us could see some of BOD in the flesh.
Discovered an interesting statistic today. In the 2009-2010 season BOD featured 6 times in the Magners; 4 home and 2 away both of these being against Irish opposition, Connacht and Ulster. Was he injured, was he simply rested or doesn't he like travelling?

That would be the year that Leinster finished top of the league yes?

Morgannwg wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:
So everyone fighting to get in the top 6 would make the league even more competitive again than the Rabo.

Really?

Remind us again why they want to be in the top 6, wouldn't have anything to do with getting to feature in the premier european competition would it? If they're so more competitive than that of Rabo how come all the Rabo teams have turned over French and English opposition in the opening rounds?

Our league is evolving well, if it isn't broke then don't fix it.....

Simply qualifying for the HEC ensures a bonus injection of cash, but it's not the bread and butter for the French or the English and winning it is another matter altogether. You mention their teams not doing particularly well in the opening rounds this season, but they still have a massively superior record compared to the Welsh sides every year since the celtic league was formed. In fact the Welsh teams have a woeful record in the HEC.

The Top14 is the bread and butter (and jam) for the French. It has huge sponsors (overall and for individual teams) and a lucrative tv deal and therefore loads and loads of cash to spread about. With money like that it pays to manage the season based around doing well in the league rather than anything else making the Top14 more competitive and far more intensive than the Rabo.

We on the other hand do the exact opposite and prioritise the HEC and internationals by resting key players in the league throughout the season. Could French (or English) teams do the same? Probably not as the sponsors and supporters wouldn't stand for it. Any idea why BOD only played 2 away games in the league in 2009/10, both in Ireland? (Not having a dig at Leinster by the way as Cardiff have done similar over the years). In the same year I think it was, Harlequins rested 2 or 3 English internationals involving a HEC game against Cardiff. I can't even begin to imagine a Welsh team doing the same.
Anyway the outcome is that Rabo teams are fresher and better prepared for the HEC. Also the financial reward for doing well in the Rabo is negligable and teams don't have to try too hard at all to ensure HEC qualification for the following season as it's basically guaranteed for most teams even before a ball is kicked.

This BBC link today illustrates perfectly what our WRU and pro sides think of the Rabo. The international players were also unavailable for last week's league games too;
"The Blues are severely understrength for Friday's Pro12 clash against Leinster because of Wales' international game against Australia."

I'm not up for an argument. I'm just saying it as I see it.

Cardiff Dave wrote: Any idea why BOD only played 2 away games in the league in 2009/10, both in Ireland?

Don't forget that he had two injuries in 2009/2010 and had no summer break (Lions tour) so that was always going to be a year with very little league matches for him.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Simply qualifying for the HEC ensures a bonus injection of cash, but it's not the bread and butter for the French or the English and winning it is another matter altogether. You mention their teams not doing particularly well in the opening rounds this season, but they still have a massively superior record compared to the Welsh sides every year since the celtic league was formed. In fact the Welsh teams have a woeful record in the HEC.

The Top14 is the bread and butter (and jam) for the French. It has huge sponsors (overall and for individual teams) and a lucrative tv deal and therefore loads and loads of cash to spread about. With money like that it pays to manage the season based around doing well in the league rather than anything else making the Top14 more competitive and far more intensive than the Rabo.

We on the other hand do the exact opposite and prioritise the HEC and internationals by resting key players in the league throughout the season. Could French (or English) teams do the same? Probably not as the sponsors and supporters wouldn't stand for it. Any idea why BOD only played 2 away games in the league in 2009/10, both in Ireland? (Not having a dig at Leinster by the way as Cardiff have done similar over the years). In the same year I think it was, Harlequins rested 2 or 3 English internationals involving a HEC game against Cardiff. I can't even begin to imagine a Welsh team doing the same.
Anyway the outcome is that Rabo teams are fresher and better prepared for the HEC. Also the financial reward for doing well in the Rabo is negligable and teams don't have to try too hard at all to ensure HEC qualification for the following season as it's basically guaranteed for most teams even before a ball is kicked.

This BBC link today illustrates perfectly what our WRU and pro sides think of the Rabo. The international players were also unavailable for last week's league games too;
"The Blues are severely understrength for Friday's Pro12 clash against Leinster because of Wales' international game against Australia."

I'm not up for an argument. I'm just saying it as I see it.

Well Dave; your insightful and educated (tongue in cheek) comments on the aspects of Celtic League and Celtic rugby in general lead me to believe you are not from Cardiff. It also leads me to believe you are not Welsh either. Nice try on bigging up the English Premiership though, although juvenile at the same time.

Mickado wrote:

That would be the year that Leinster finished top of the league yes?

Leinster winning it says as much about the league and opposition as it does about their strength in depth with their star player not making it out of Ireland for a league game.
It's an important point though isn't it? For the league to become more competitive with more intensity, and therefore better attended and supported and seriously sponsored we need to see the strongest sides with their star players face each other on the field week in, week out. That's not happening though and we in Wales are affected more than the Irish due to the extra AI and Gatland's 13 day rule which our regions agreed to.

Dave, it isn't realisitc for the best players to play week in, week out.

22 league games, 2 playoffs, 9 HEC matches and around 10 internatonals a year would mean the top players feature in over 40 games a year while the squad players sit about twiddling thumbs

Absolute nonsense.

Morgannwg wrote:

Well Dave; your insightful and educated (tongue in cheek) comments on the aspects of Celtic League and Celtic rugby in general lead me to believe you are not from Cardiff. It also leads me to believe you are not Welsh either. Nice try on bigging up the English Premiership though, although juvenile at the same time.

I am from Cardiff and my depleted team is up against Leinster in the league tonight without our international players because of an international friendly required to help pay the WRU debt. We were also without our international players last week as well, as were the other regions as they have agreed to this arrangement. Leinster could steam roller us tonight if they wanted. We'll see.
But if you are happy with everything then fine. I'm not. I would much prefer it if we had a lucrative league with our best players on show as much as possible.

Juvenile eh? Thanks for that.

red_stag wrote:Dave, it isn't realisitc for the best players to play week in, week out.

22 league games, 2 playoffs, 9 HEC matches and around 10 internatonals a year would mean the top players feature in over 40 games a year while the squad players sit about twiddling thumbs

Absolute nonsense.

Week in, week out is just a phrase. Didn't mean it literally. Just want to see more of them playing for their clubs in the league.

BTW I agree with your points about this ridiculous excuse of an Autumn Test for Wales. They have fooked over your regions badly.

red_stag wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote: Any idea why BOD only played 2 away games in the league in 2009/10, both in Ireland?

Don't forget that he had two injuries in 2009/2010 and had no summer break (Lions tour) so that was always going to be a year with very little league matches for him.

Ah right. That explains that one.

Cardiff Dave wrote:
We on the other hand do the exact opposite and prioritise the HEC and internationals by resting key players in the league throughout the season. Could French (or English) teams do the same? Probably not as the sponsors and supporters wouldn't stand for it. Any idea why BOD only played 2 away games in the league in 2009/10, both in Ireland? (Not having a dig at Leinster by the way as Cardiff have done similar over the years). In the same year I think it was, Harlequins rested 2 or 3 English internationals involving a HEC game against Cardiff. I can't even begin to imagine a Welsh team doing the same.
Anyway the outcome is that Rabo teams are fresher and better prepared for the HEC. Also the financial reward for doing well in the Rabo is negligable and teams don't have to try too hard at all to ensure HEC qualification for the following season as it's basically guaranteed for most teams even before a ball is kicked.

This BBC link today illustrates perfectly what our WRU and pro sides think of the Rabo. The international players were also unavailable for last week's league games too;
"The Blues are severely understrength for Friday's Pro12 clash against Leinster because of Wales' international game against Australia."

I'm not up for an argument. I'm just saying it as I see it.

Dave your comments on the League, BOD and opposition are stone age. It was something the English would often bring up in the past but even they have come to realise how defunct an arguement it was so why can't you? Also, not sure which point you're trying to empthasize with that WRU quote.

Listen to what Stag is saying. It's called teams managing their resources effectively. Everyone knows the situation in France and with the money involved it's not up for comparison.

The match against Aus isn't ideal, we know that. I am happy because I get to see Wales play again before Feb and in the long run it will be beneficial. You can't expect more funds from the WRU if they're in a massive debt.

red_stag wrote:BTW I agree with your points about this ridiculous excuse of an Autumn Test for Wales. They have fooked over your regions badly.

The regions agreed to it though. They signed a participation agreement a couple of years ago. They could've declined, but didn't. The result was among other things a slight increase in funding for the regions, an extra AI and players released from their region 13 days before any international.

Cardiff Dave wrote:
The regions agreed to it though. They signed a participation agreement a couple of years ago. They could've declined, but didn't. The result was among other things a slight increase in funding for the regions, an extra AI and players released from their region 13 days before any international.

Yep. The Regions/Superclubs were set up to feed the national team and they would have had no rights in declining. IT should be the WRU central contracting and managing our players. As they do to great effect in New Zealand.

The English and French clubs are businesses.

In an ideal world you'll get to where Munster are now in terms of squad depth (wish our front liners were bit better though).

1st XV:

01 Wian du Preez
02 Jerry Flannery
03 BJ Botha
04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Paul O'Connell
06 Denis Leamy
07 David Wallace
08 Peter O'Mahony
09 Conor Murray
10 Ronan O'Gara
11 Keith Earls
12 Danny Barnes
13 Will Chambers
14 Doug Howlett
15 Felix Jones

Then we have a 2nd XV of:

01 Marcus Horan
02 Damien Varley
03 John Hayes
04 Donnacha O'Callaghan
05 Mick O'Driscoll
06 Tommy O'Donnell
07 Niall Ronan
08 James Coughlan
09 Tomas O'Leary
10 Ian Keatley
11 Simon Zebo
12 Lifeimi Mafi
13 Tom Gleeson
14 Johne Murphy
15 Denis Hurley

Even if we send out a completely 2nd XV that wont short change anyone. We have only got this level of depth by giving game time to our youngsters and backup players.

Morgannwg wrote:

Dave your comments on the League, BOD and opposition are stone age. It was something the English would often bring up in the past but even they have come to realise how defunct an arguement it was so why can't you? Also, not sure which point you're trying to empthasize with that WRU quote.

Listen to what Stag is saying. It's called teams managing their resources effevtively. Everyone knows the situation in France and with the money involved it's not up for comparison.

The match against Aus isn't ideal, we know that. I am happy because I get to see Wales play again before Feb and in the long run it will be beneficial. You can't expect more funds from the WRU if they're in a massive debt.

Are my comments from the stone age? I know what Northampton said after being beaten by Leinster in the HEC final saying their players were tired or something like that.
The original question referred to making the Rabo more appealing than it is. From a Welsh perspective we are making it less appealing.

The regions are getting increased funding from the WRU. The PA guaranteed an extra £2.4m shared between 4, I think.

red_stag wrote:In an ideal world you'll get to where Munster are now in terms of squad depth (wish our front liners were bit better though).

1st XV:

01 Wian du Preez
02 Jerry Flannery
03 BJ Botha
04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Paul O'Connell
06 Denis Leamy
07 David Wallace
08 Peter O'Mahony
09 Conor Murray
10 Ronan O'Gara
11 Keith Earls
12 Danny Barnes
13 Will Chambers
14 Doug Howlett
15 Felix Jones

Then we have a 2nd XV of:

01 Marcus Horan
02 Damien Varley
03 John Hayes
04 Donnacha O'Callaghan
05 Mick O'Driscoll
06 Tommy O'Donnell
07 Niall Ronan
08 James Coughlan
09 Tomas O'Leary
10 Ian Keatley
11 Simon Zebo
12 Lifeimi Mafi
13 Tom Gleeson
14 Johne Murphy
15 Denis Hurley

Even if we send out a completely 2nd XV that wont short change anyone. We have only got this level of depth by giving game time to our youngsters and backup players.

There's no doubt the Irish model works very well.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Dave your comments on the League, BOD and opposition are stone age. It was something the English would often bring up in the past but even they have come to realise how defunct an arguement it was so why can't you? Also, not sure which point you're trying to empthasize with that WRU quote.

Listen to what Stag is saying. It's called teams managing their resources effevtively. Everyone knows the situation in France and with the money involved it's not up for comparison.

The match against Aus isn't ideal, we know that. I am happy because I get to see Wales play again before Feb and in the long run it will be beneficial. You can't expect more funds from the WRU if they're in a massive debt.

Are my comments from the stone age? I know what Northampton said after being beaten by Leinster in the HEC final saying their players were tired or something like that.
The original question referred to making the Rabo more appealing than it is. From a Welsh perspective we are making it less appealing.

The regions are getting increased funding from the WRU. The PA guaranteed an extra £2.4m shared between 4, I think.

Northampton were rather a special case as they have to play their 1st choice team more often than not. This was down to their reserves not being up to scratch. Part of the reason for that was they were only a couple of season up from the championship and hadn't put together a squad for competing at the top level in the Europe. They've tried to extend the squad a bit this year and will hopefully be able to rest a few more players (for the business end of the league as well as Europe)

The Irish model is what you seem to be criticising though.

- Our top players play all International and Heineken Cup game. They play a few league matches.

- Our squad players play most league matches. They might play a few Heineken Cup games.

- The provinces focus on winning the HEC. This leads to happy fans who will go to see the matches and we get good gate receipts and sponsorship.

- This means big signings - Cullen, Botha, Howlett, Van der Linde, Elsom - and we continue to improve.

- In the meantime the squad guys have developed nicely and the conveyour belt keeps on moving. Anthony Foley, Shaun Payne and Peter Stringer were all dropped midway through the 2008 HEC for younger lesser known players.

- This leads to big depth, good performances in the HEC and if we do well in the Pro 12 its a bonus


(please note the above is in an ideal world but thats the plan)

Morgannwg wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:
The regions agreed to it though. They signed a participation agreement a couple of years ago. They could've declined, but didn't. The result was among other things a slight increase in funding for the regions, an extra AI and players released from their region 13 days before any international.

Yep. The Regions/Superclubs were set up to feed the national team and they would have had no rights in declining.

The WRU and RRW eventually came to an agreement in 2009 after they had been arguing for more than a year because the regions wanted more than what was initially offered.

red_stag wrote:The Irish model is what you seem to be criticising though.

Not at all and I didn't mean to give that impression.
The way Irish rugby is set up works perfectly and the league fits just right to what you and your fans desire.

Ah cool, in that case carry on

Is the Welsh system all that different to ours?

red_stag wrote:Ah cool, in that case carry on

Is the Welsh system all that different to ours?

Yes we have a system of sorts. Not saying anymore than that.

Dave,
I understand where you are coming from man. I like to hear all fans opinions. I learn from it. It's what this site is all about.

Leinster are taking the game tonight v your Blues very seriously. Yes, its not our full strength starting side, but we have the ones we left out - sitting on the bench. Blues always either give us an awful time of it... and frequently - beat us. Leinster do take the PRO12 seriously. Have no doubts about that. We want to win it this year, we do every year. And having been beaten by O's and Munster in the last 2 Grand Finals. That hurt. We want it bad.

On a side note, I am dying to see Leinster's (and maybe Ireland's) future centre-pairing McFadden & O Malley play together tonight. Really love watching the new talent come through, sometimes even more than watching BOD, Darcy, Kearney etc. do their stuff. Really do. Maybe Im weird.

Best of luck tonight my man. Enjoy the game. I just hope it doesnt rain. It will spoil the game. And... I'll be standing out in it.

P.S. Who do we look out for in the Blues squad? New talents you have hopes for, with some of your main boys away with Wales?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

red_stag wrote:Ah cool, in that case carry on

Is the Welsh system all that different to ours?

Yes we have a system of sorts. Not saying anymore than that.

Being very harsh their Dave...! The Blues may not be famous for their contribution through academies but even they are now pulling their weight.

Look at the amount of young talent that is progressing from the Premiership to the Regional sides and on to the International scene after. I am sure I don't have to give you a list of names.

Wales have a system similar in some ways to Ireland and to the SH Super franchises, a bit of a mix of both. The whole concept has to be engineered towards what produces results. With the results our system is already starting to produce, as you say it was only really finalised in 09, we are seeing the dividends in the national squad and Regional teams. Even the premiership is probably its most competitive in thirty years.

The PRO12 seems to be seen the same way as the English clubs look at Anglo-Welsh. Good for giving some guys a run out, bringing back injured players, etc and if you get to the playoffs then you bring the big boys out to give them the experience of winning silverware. Granted the Anglo-Welsh has a HEC spot riding on it as well so it's a little more important but you get the idea.

I'd say the Regions have a similar more like that in england rather than Ireland or SH. Only the regions are more reliant on the WRU funding than the clubs are on the RFU funding.

HammerofThunor wrote:The PRO12 seems to be seen the same way as the English clubs look at Anglo-Welsh. Good for giving some guys a run out, bringing back injured players, etc and if you get to the playoffs then you bring the big boys out to give them the experience of winning silverware. Granted the Anglo-Welsh has a HEC spot riding on it as well so it's a little more important but you get the idea.

The PRO12 isn't seen like that at all. The Anglo-Welsh cup has featured mostly academy players this year, some fresh out of school. You don't see that in the League, only in some cases when that player has exceptional talent i:e, George North. Seeing as the Irish don't compete in this cup and that the IRFU states some of their international players can only play a certain amount of games in a season forces changes to the Provincial teams line-up. BOD not playing doesn't make Leinster an under-strength team, that seems to be the attitude in here. Teams in the Pro12 put out their best teams quite often. Each nation, including Engish or French, will use winning their domestic league as a great stepping stone towards challenging for the Heineken Cup and there is countless examples for that over the years. So I don't see how the H-cup is 2nd rate to us arguement stands up when some people use it as a stick to beat the Celtic League with.

Gibson wrote:Dave,
I understand where you are coming from man. I like to hear all fans opinions. I learn from it. It's what this site is all about.

Leinster are taking the game tonight v your Blues very seriously. Yes, its not our full strength starting side, but we have the ones we left out - sitting on the bench. Blues always either give us an awful time of it... and frequently - beat us. Leinster do take the PRO12 seriously. Have no doubts about that. We want to win it this year, we do every year. And having been beaten by O's and Munster in the last 2 Grand Finals. That hurt. We want it bad.

On a side note, I am dying to see Leinster's (and maybe Ireland's) future centre-pairing McFadden & O Malley play together tonight. Really love watching the new talent come through, sometimes even more than watching BOD, Darcy, Kearney etc. do their stuff. Really do. Maybe Im weird.

Best of luck tonight my man. Enjoy the game. I just hope it doesnt rain. It will spoil the game. And... I'll be standing out in it.

P.S. Who do we look out for in the Blues squad? New talents you have hopes for, with some of your main boys away with Wales?

No worries and no you're not weird in wanting to watch new talent. I do too providing it's merited (a Cardiff thing).

I would look out for Josh Navidi our dreadlocked openside and possibly Tyrrell our new hooker, but not a youngster. Also the 2 locks Cory Hill and Macauley Cook on the bench.

HammerofThunor wrote:The PRO12 seems to be seen the same way as the English clubs look at Anglo-Welsh. Good for giving some guys a run out, bringing back injured players, etc and if you get to the playoffs then you bring the big boys out to give them the experience of winning silverware. Granted the Anglo-Welsh has a HEC spot riding on it as well so it's a little more important but you get the idea.

I'd say the Regions have a similar more like that in england rather than Ireland or SH. Only the regions are more reliant on the WRU funding than the clubs are on the RFU funding.

I wouldn't go that far, but there is certainly less pressure to do well in the Pro12 especially for the Welsh whose union and clubs don't appear to value it as much as the others.
Never understood why the Anglo-Welsh provides a route to Europe for the English, but not the Welsh. It's also a bit pointless if we field a development side with mainly youngsters and the English take it seriously. Cardiff got smashed by Newcastle 33-3 back in October. Can't be right.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:The PRO12 seems to be seen the same way as the English clubs look at Anglo-Welsh. Good for giving some guys a run out, bringing back injured players, etc and if you get to the playoffs then you bring the big boys out to give them the experience of winning silverware. Granted the Anglo-Welsh has a HEC spot riding on it as well so it's a little more important but you get the idea.

I'd say the Regions have a similar more like that in england rather than Ireland or SH. Only the regions are more reliant on the WRU funding than the clubs are on the RFU funding.

I wouldn't go that far, but there is certainly less pressure to do well in the Pro12 especially for the Welsh whose union and clubs don't appear to value it as much as the others.
Never understood why the Anglo-Welsh provides a route to Europe for the English, but not the Welsh. It's also a bit pointless if we field a development side with mainly youngsters and the English take it seriously. Cardiff got smashed by Newcastle 33-3 back in October. Can't be right.

It used to be the English only Club Championship, then in the seventies it became the JPS Cup, later Beer companies sponsored it, Pilkington, Tetley I think too for a while. It only became and Anglo Welsh cup about five or six years ago...

So the reason they only award an English place is because of it being intrinsically an English Championship