Nadal "weary of tennis"

A few times I've suggested that I can't believe he can go out there and play the same repetitive tactics all the time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/15941131.stm

I'm not saying that's the cause but it may play a part.

Well it certainly contrasts with Federer who at the same age was inviting young players over Dubai to train with him to learn from the new generation. Hi slove for the game is certainly genuine.

Nadal had to sacrifice even more to stay at the top, and that is what's killing him. He never had an easy life on tour, not even in 2010.

But it also says...Following a practice session for the Davis Cup final, Nadal said his words had been exaggerated. He commented: "Things get blown out of proportion very often because conclusions are drawn far beyond the meaning of what's said". I say on here often that sometimes people hang too much on every word he says, he wears his heart on his sleeve (typically spanish) and probably says things at times he doesnt mean for the long term.

There are also rumours his relationship with Toni is breaking down, that he resents the bullying nature of Toni's approach more and more and wnats to make his own diecisions. Plus ther are rumours that there are changes in his personal life too which may have been distracting for him. So I think he's found 2011 difficult for a number of reasons - and it all started with having his dream shattered at AO and didnt get much better thereafter. I think with a break and renewed focus he'll be fine...people have been (almost gleefully) predicting his downfall season after season and yet he's still in the top 2 all these years winning slams and Masters...and that during a season where he's clearly "struggling" alot more. I dont think the tactic thing is relevant personally, nor do I exactly buy that either, there are many other bigger factors than that at play. He just needs to empty his mind over the break and let all the built up negative mental static from 2011 discharge...he'll be back. And hey, if he wasnt his place in Tennis' Hall of Fame is assured already.

Who knows with Rafa. I was amazed that he came back so strong from his knee problems in 2009, and we know that he had a very personally unhappy year in 2009 too.

In 2011 he's been the man anyone wanting a slam has had to beat bar the Aus Open, and if you can keep that up you generally win slams because others can't always get past you (Fed's career is testament to that, especially during 2008-2010). Maybe 2011 has been a sort of 2009 equivalent, and he'll bounce back as he has done in the past, but I would be truly astonished if 2012 could involve a repetition of 2010.

Nadal needs to manage his calendar better and prevent such perceived burnouts. His parents, IIRC, are back together, so it should be a source of positive motivation.

Even if he cannot repeat 2010, some semblance of order with him winning a slam or two, would perhaps help him get his mojo back.

This concerns me more than Nadal's statements though...

Ferrer conceded the South Americans have a big advantage, with himself and Nadal having played this week.

"I'm very tired," said Ferrer, who plays Juan Martin del Potro in the second singles match. "I want to stop, but I can't because I have the Davis Cup.

"It is a disadvantage because we've played more matches. We'll be more tired. We have to change now to clay courts. The Argentinian guys, they were practising two weeks ago on clay."

Concerned in what way .....?

I'd say things got better for Nadal after he lost in the Australian open, reaching the finals of every tournament he played in. So what if he lost to someone playing the exact same game as him but slightly better.

bogbrush wrote:A few times I've suggested that I can't believe he can go out there and play the same repetitive tactics all the time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/15941131.stm

I'm not saying that's the cause but it may play a part.

Didn't he say somewhere that he preferred the competition or the winning to the tennis?

lydian wrote:But it also says...Following a practice session for the Davis Cup final, Nadal said his words had been exaggerated. He commented: "Things get blown out of proportion very often because conclusions are drawn far beyond the meaning of what's said". I say on here often that sometimes people hang too much on every word he says, he wears his heart on his sleeve (typically spanish) and probably says things at times he doesnt mean for the long term.

No, actually the statement I refer to IS the clarification to disassociate himself from his comment that he had a "lack of passion" for the game.

Yes but you ended your OP by saying "I'm not saying that's the cause but it may play a part" which implies you were focusing on the part about losing passion because you tied that to repetitive tactics.

Break in the fifth - he didnt get to the final of every tournament he entered

lydian wrote:Yes but you ended your OP by saying "I'm not saying that's the cause but it may play a part" which implies you were focusing on the part about losing passion because you tied that to repetitive tactics.

That stands. He's clarified that he just means it's all this time banging away, and I'm merely saying that it was something I brought up way back on 606 that I thought he must be an odd character to be prepared to bang away doing pretty much the same thing all the time, especially given how wearing it is and that he can't be filling many games with novelty and invention. Plus I understand his training is pretty much more of the same. Must be tedious, I thought.

lags72 wrote:Concerned in what way .....?

Ferrer says he is 'tired'. He is a tennis machine, but he is showing his human side. .

He is a dedicated player. He played the USA tie and carried Nadal to the final.

Edit: 'was carried' : corrected.

laverfan - I always enjoy your thoughtful posts but I'm afraid you've lost me on this one !

I've read (twice) the four brief statements you've just written - intended presumably by way of explanation. But they seem non-sequiturs and unconnected to your earlier point in which you says "this concerns me" ....

Am I missing something here ?

Sorry Lags72 for the language conundrum.

Ferrer played the USA tie, but Nadal did not. Ferrer was instrumental in helping Spain get past USA by beating both Fish and Roddick.

Ferrer has been a constant participant in Spain's DC ties, while Nadal has skipped some.

Ferrer's dedication to the DC is what I appreciate very much. He played Valencia, Paris, WTF and is more of a cornerstone for Spain.

He is now tired, but will still play. To me, he should be lauded, IMVHO, a bit more than Nadal for his selfless endeavors.

PS: My apologies again for not being precise in my previous comment. Thanks for seeking a clarification.

PPS: My concern is for Ferrer's health and well being.

BB, I kind of agree to some extent - and I think this has led him to the conclusion that he doesnt want to be strongly directed by Toni anymore. I think Toni has drilled him to play a certain way and detect Nadal wants to become his own man now he's grown up and sees the tennis world increasingly outside his closely knit set-up.

He probably wants more autonomy to do his own thing and develop his game in areas/ways that perhaps Toni doesnt agree with - we have heard that he's tired of Toni "bullying" him - you can imagine that Toni is so close to Rafa and has known him since a child so maybe overly bearing without realising it anymore. A case of the pupil being the master really. So I think he's at a crossroads with Toni and his focus on the game is changing. He may be at that point like Federer got to where you feel you dont need strong coaching anymore, its more about advise and tips, with a small team and a periodic trainer. If Nadal doesnt know what to do now he;ll never know and its not like he's got fundamental weaknesses in his game that need a new technical coach, although some areas need tightening up but I think those are mainly mentally related. Interesting times ahead for him...

i think too much is made of this comment by Nadal. he is weary of tennis. big deal.

come january, Duracell Nadal will be back. and this from someone who is not a big fan of his style of play.

laverfan - ok, understood, thanks for cracking the riddle !

Yep, David definitely deserves credit for his efforts and dedication

You're waaaay better at the stats than I will ever be, but if I've got it right he has played 16 matches going back to Shanghai, whereas in the same period Rafa has played only 5 and of course had the 'benefit' - or seemingly not ...??! - of that long R & R break taken specifically (as he announced at the time) to prepare for London and DC

So if anything, Ferrer has far more reason to claim fatigue but of course he doesn't get the same media attention or generate the same interest/comment as Rafa. He just seems to get on with it, and he's a great asset to the tour.

Whatever happens in the DC I do hope that ALL the top guys can get themselves in best possible shape for the start of 2012. Last thing we want is withdrawals/retirements at AO ; although I suspect the odds of one or more casualties in the second week are fairly high.

Spot on Lags72.

bogbrush wrote:A few times I've suggested that I can't believe he can go out there and play the same repetitive tactics all the time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/15941131.stm

I'm not saying that's the cause but it may play a part.

Maybe that's the only way he can play. Not everyone has the easy opulent talent of shot-making like Federer. It's not Nadal's fault Federer can't beat him in slams any more.

lydian wrote:BB, I kind of agree to some extent - and I think this has led him to the conclusion that he doesnt want to be strongly directed by Toni anymore. I think Toni has drilled him to play a certain way and detect Nadal wants to become his own man now he's grown up and sees the tennis world increasingly outside his closely knit set-up.

He probably wants more autonomy to do his own thing and develop his game in areas/ways that perhaps Toni doesnt agree with - we have heard that he's tired of Toni "bullying" him - you can imagine that Toni is so close to Rafa and has known him since a child so maybe overly bearing without realising it anymore. A case of the pupil being the master really. So I think he's at a crossroads with Toni and his focus on the game is changing. He may be at that point like Federer got to where you feel you dont need strong coaching anymore, its more about advise and tips, with a small team and a periodic trainer. If Nadal doesnt know what to do now he;ll never know and its not like he's got fundamental weaknesses in his game that need a new technical coach, although some areas need tightening up but I think those are mainly mentally related. Interesting times ahead for him...

Fair enough

noleisthebest wrote:

Maybe that's the only way he can play. Not everyone has the easy opulent talent of shot-making like Federer. It's not Nadal's fault Federer can't beat him in slams any more.

Perhaps, a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I think Federer can beat him at a slam, as he showed at WTF 2011. . I know that Nore Staat does not agree with me on such an observation.

laverfan wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

Maybe that's the only way he can play. Not everyone has the easy opulent talent of shot-making like Federer. It's not Nadal's fault Federer can't beat him in slams any more.

Perhaps, a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I think Federer can beat him at a slam, as he showed at WTF 2011. . I know that Nore Staat does not agree with me on such an observation.

That is possible but it is yet to happen; I still think very difficult as he (all things being equal) will have ahd to beat Nole in the best of 5, and then face Nadal in the final.
Either that or be in Nadal's half and than face Nole in the final after the best of 5 against Nadal.
AO is his next chance and I look forward to it very much

lydian wrote:He may be at that point like Federer got to where you feel you dont need strong coaching anymore, its more about advise and tips, with a small team and a periodic trainer.

IMVHO, Federer, has expanded his team, with Annacone and Luthi, rather than the coach-less years or Roche.

noleisthebest wrote:AO is his next chance and I look forward to it very much

Very much an anticipated slam to see how Federer fares.

laverfan wrote:

lydian wrote:He may be at that point like Federer got to where you feel you dont need strong coaching anymore, its more about advise and tips, with a small team and a periodic trainer.

IMVHO, Federer, has expanded his team, with Annacone and Luthi, rather than the coach-less years or Roche.

Yes LF but I'm referring to the particular point in time (not now) where Federer got to a point where he just decided he didnt need a full-time coach anymore...this was around 2004 post-Lundgren. After that time as you know he got occasional help from Roche, Luthi (he's worked with Luthi for years now), Higueras, and then trials with Cahil...until later in 2010 when he finally went back to a full-time coach. So around 6 years without a full-time coach. I'm sure Nadal will be cognisant of these options and they must enter his head periodically.

LuvSports! wrote:Break in the fifth - he didnt get to the final of every tournament he entered

Indian Wells, Miami, Monte Carlo, Madrid, Rome... Did he enter any other tournaments during that time?

If Federer can improve his game in the off season with new innovations then he should be able to win slams next year starting with the Australian open.

I think a more appropriate title would be "Is Nadal wearied by tennis". It's been discussed previously how the game played by this kind of players (the likes of Nadal, Courier, Wilander or Brugera) requires a total dedication in terms of training and on court commitment which is ever difficult to find as the time goes by.

break in the fifth - soz you just said after the australian open and didnt state a time frame in that time yes you are right i thought you meant for the whole year which is why i thought it was very odd you said that

I was just responding to Lydian about things not getting much better for Nadal after the Australian open. Having said that I agree with the point of view that Nadal's problems are mental. His game is as adapted as ever for today's conditions and with a slightly better mentality he would have been unstoppable again.

lydian wrote:
Yes LF but I'm referring to the particular point in time (not now) where Federer got to a point where he just decided he didnt need a full-time coach anymore...this was around 2004 post-Lundgren. After that time as you know he got occasional help from Roche, Luthi (he's worked with Luthi for years now), Higueras, and then trials with Cahil...until later in 2010 when he finally went back to a full-time coach. So around 6 years without a full-time coach. I'm sure Nadal will be cognisant of these options and they must enter his head periodically.

Tsonga and Murray are coach-less now, IIRC. They seem to be doing well.

There may be others, not sure.

It's difficult to say if Nadal is the kind of guy who could do well solo. Murray is doing as well as he ever did with a coach and Tsonga is maybe doing better. Is Nadal willing to think up strategies for himself more or is he always going to be relying on someone else? I'd go for the latter as he looked to his box for where to serve on match point US open 2010 when there was probably little pressure to as he had the match anyway. Maybe this points to him being more comfortable with someone else involved.

...Nadal's problems are mental

And those are not directly related to his physical game?

Tenez wrote:

...Nadal's problems are mental

And those are not directly related to his physical game?

There were points during some of his matches with Djokovic where he went for a winner in order to get the point and missed. A lot of these were important points where if he had made the winner the match may have had a different outcome. He'd have made more of these winners were he playing lower ranked players.

I actually don't think Nadal's defeats versus Djoko were down to points tehre and then. If anything it's almost always Nadal who wins those key points but against Djoko they only delayed the inevitable. 6/0 this year, 9 losses out of the last 11 matches v Djoko....sorry nothing to do with mental fatigue.

Nadal goes for broke v Djoko cause his energy goes down as the rally goes on and feels he has to go for a winner to preserve his chances to last the distance. He is in the position most of his opponents are against him but against Djoko he gets a bit of his own medecine.

When Djoko was not as physically strong Nadal was "mentally" strong. That's the key to tennis nowadays. Now that Djoko is physically strong, Nadal is "mentally" tired. It's all down to their rspective energy level. Works teh same for Djoko as we saw last week.

Didn't say anything about mental fatigue. I think mental strength has many facets and Nadal's attacking mentality perhaps needs to be developed and come to the fore a bit more. I think I'll either properly agree or disagree with you after seeing what happens next year. Don't get me wrong I'm more than happy to see Djokovic succeed. I just don't think things are set in stone.

He's "Weary from tennis", not 'weary of tennis" - 2 different things

"Works teh same for Djoko as we saw last week. "

not it doesn't. Novak is a completely different story from Nadal and his game is certainly not based on physical strength.
He was simply gone completely off the boil after the long injury time-out (not rest like Federer or further fitness preparation like Nadal). He is probably one of the least physically strong players in the top 10.

noleisthebest wrote:".... He is probably one of the least physically strong players in the top 10.

Going by the players' pictures at the O2, Djokovic looked like he'd be most in his element in a gladiatorial arena of some sort.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:".... He is probably one of the least physically strong players in the top 10.

I was assuming you knew the difference between fitness and strength

Federer is stronger than Djokovic and is at least as fit as him.

Which is not to be confused with Nole's outstanding athleticism

noleisthebest wrote:Which is not to be confused with Nole's outstanding athleticism

I meant stamina indeed. But this is what I call a physical player... Nadal is the only player who can combined power and stamina thus far.

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Which is not to be confused with Nole's outstanding athleticism

I meant stamina indeed. But this is what I call a physical player... Nadal is the only player who can combined power and stamina thus far.

He did, but didn't it look toothless against Nole this year? It was quite a sight to behold...after two years of virtual complete dominance and the dawn of Nadal era.....I mean do you remember how it went this time last year....
That's one of the reasons Nole's year has been so colossal, to have overturned the course of "history" is such a way, it would've been equivalent of Ljubicic coming out in 2006 thumping Federer in all their meetings...

noleisthebest wrote:

Tenez wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:Which is not to be confused with Nole's outstanding athleticism

I meant stamina indeed. But this is what I call a physical player... Nadal is the only player who can combined power and stamina thus far.

He did, but didn't it look toothless against Nole this year? It was quite a sight to behold...after two years of virtual complete dominance and the dawn of Nadal era.....I mean do you remember how it went this time last year....
That's one of the reasons Nole's year has been so colossal, to have overturned the course of "history" is such a way, it would've been equivalent of Ljubicic coming out in 2006 thumping Federer in all their meetings...

In the picture Nole's eyes glistened with purpose like he indeed had a massive part to play in altering the course of history and finally realised his role as saviour of tennis.

tsonga is probably the biggest, strongest guy out there and he has good stamina no?

To be quite honest, I never know whether to believe any statements, confessionals or general tales of woe which come out of the Nadal camp......it is constant mind games, usually engineered by Toni but Nadal nowadays seems to have a flair for the dramatic.

I still haven't got over the' hairline fracture' of Wimbledon, and the hamstring woe at the AO that no-one was sure which leg it was.

I am not sure whether this constant stream of information is meant to disarm opponents, but I should think they all take as little notice of it all as the rest of us do now.