Froch. What if.....

He is well respected by most here (myself included) for his willingness to fight the best wherever that may be. But what is he loses by a shut out against Ward. Would posters then start looking deeper nto his record? Bringing up his loss to Kessler and his disputed win against Dirrell and then claiming he was not all that good anyway?

If he loses I see similar parallels to Hatton. Good until being beaten.

I don't think there is any shame in losing a shutout to an olympic gold medalist and a superb fighter who had a shut out win to a fighter who beat you in kessler. He beat dirrell, regardless of if it was controversial, and dirrell was suppose to win. He had shut out vs abraham before anyone else had. The kessler fight was a brilliant fight and could have go carl's night, once again, no shame in losing to a top fighter.

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:I don't think there is any shame in losing a shutout to an olympic gold medalist and a superb fighter who had a shut out win to a fighter who beat you in kessler. He beat dirrell, regardless of if it was controversial, and dirrell was suppose to win. He had shut out vs abraham before anyone else had. The kessler fight was a brilliant fight and could have go carl's night, once again, no shame in losing to a top fighter.

Hatton lost to the very best yet he gets ridiculed for it. No shame in fighting and losing to Floyd and the punch that flattened him was a brilliant check hook (cheque in Floyd's case). Also the punch from Manny would have floored a MW. He gets criticised for rushing manny. But he believed his strength would be a factor. He didn't reckon with Manny's speed and punch power. No shame in either.

I fear you may be on to something in this article, Azania. Oddly enough, despite him being local to me, I have mentioned once or twice that some have perhaps been kind to Froch's run since 2008, in so much that while I agree it has been a very, very good one and enough to make him beyond doubt a top two pound for pound Brit at least right now, it maybe isn't quite as stellar as they'd have us believe.

The Dirrell fight was a damp squib, and so far I'm not fully convinced that Dirrell is set to be any kind of world beater at the professional level. Kessler, without doubt the best Super-Middleweight he's faced until this point, beat him. Taylor, Pascal, Abraham and Johnson are all very decent / good wins in their own right, though. Accordingly, he deserves recognition for these achievements, but I do think the people who claim that he's already outdone Calzaghe have been getting a little ahead of themselves.

If he beats Ward and perhaps avenges Kessler, then a realistic comparison could be made. If he doesn't, I fear a lot of people will suddenly develop 20:20 hindsight and begin to question his credentials as an all-time British great, which would be harsh.

88Chris05 wrote:I fear you may be on to something in this article, Azania. Oddly enough, despite him being local to me, I have mentioned once or twice that some have perhaps been kind to Froch's run since 2008, in so much that while I agree it has been a very, very good one and enough to make him beyond doubt a top two pound for pound Brit at least right now, it maybe isn't quite as stellar as they'd have us believe.

The Dirrell fight was a damp squib, and so far I'm not fully convinced that Dirrell is set to be any kind of world beater at the professional level. Kessler, without doubt the best Super-Middleweight he's faced until this point, beat him. Taylor, Pascal, Abraham and Johnson are all very decent / good wins in their own right, though. Accordingly, he deserves recognition for these achievements, but I do think the people who claim that he's already outdone Calzaghe have been getting a little ahead of themselves.

If he beats Ward and perhaps avenges Kessler, then a realistic comparison could be made. If he doesn't, I fear a lot of people will suddenly develop 20:20 hindsight and begin to question his credentials as an all-time British great, which would be harsh.

Nothing to be afrain of and why the surprise

But you will be surprised that I agree with what you say. 20:20 is a wonderful thing. For me I like Carl. Never thought of his as elite. but he wants to fight the best and will travel to do so. Credit to him.

azania wrote:

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:I don't think there is any shame in losing a shutout to an olympic gold medalist and a superb fighter who had a shut out win to a fighter who beat you in kessler. He beat dirrell, regardless of if it was controversial, and dirrell was suppose to win. He had shut out vs abraham before anyone else had. The kessler fight was a brilliant fight and could have go carl's night, once again, no shame in losing to a top fighter.

Hatton lost to the very best yet he gets ridiculed for it. No shame in fighting and losing to Floyd and the punch that flattened him was a brilliant check hook (cheque in Floyd's case). Also the punch from Manny would have floored a MW. He gets criticised for rushing manny. But he believed his strength would be a factor. He didn't reckon with Manny's speed and punch power. No shame in either.

yea but im not one of those who ridicule hatton. I respect what he did and didn't think he had much of a chance before the mayweather or the pacquiao fights.I don't think froch will beat ward, i didn't think he would beat direll, kessler or abrahams for that matter. He has done very well considering his skill level and he has never ducked an opponent which gets him credit imo. If he loses to ward, goes up to LHW and loses to cleverly or loses to groves at SMW then he should be ridiculed and called overrated. people are also forgetting the pascal fight which was enthralling and brilliant as was his KO of taylor late in the fight. He is a warrior and should be credited for his career

No way will a loss to Ward make me critical of Froch's career it would just make me see Ward in a different light.

I agree with Chris inasmuch Froch has been lauded a little too much for his achievements so far. A good resume no doubt but I think his so called bravery and willingness to fight the best gets blown out of proportion when he's signed to a competition which automatically matches him to the best opponents anyway.

A strong argument could be made in saying he's only about three wins away from being able to claim a better CV than Calzaghe at SMW, however, in reality he's a million miles away given these three wins would have to come against Ward, Kessler (rematch) and Bute. It should be noted that Froch is yet to beat an incumbent champion at super middleweight and his top wins have not come against any super middlewight world champions.

The reason Froch is lauded is because he may be the only fighter who can boast a record as his which, considering the state of boxing at the moment, is quite refreshing.

Pascal, Taylor, and Abraham are great wins you cant doubt that. Yes he signed up for the competition but he was willing to face Calzaghe before it and beat Pascal on the way. For all his worth I still see Bute beating him but Ward and a return with Kessler will be both wins for him.

I think the manner of defeat if he loses will be improtant but I have said something similar in the past. To be honest, if he did get a similar beating to what Kessler received then his record suddenly looks vunerable. His committment and ambition will remain unquestioned but I do think his actual record and the perception of his ability will be left quite open. Im not sure either it would purely be a case of hindsight.

You can trash records pretty easily in this sport so I dont really want to get into that but if you apply scrutiny in the context of him being an elite fighter or one of Britains greatest and one sided loss to Wad would damage that.

Johnson - tough and durable but in reality a very aged veteran who had been ousted from LH prior to Froch and was beaten equally as convincingly as Bute after.

I think Abraham the fact he was beaten by the other two Americans either side kind of puts Abrahams position as a fighter in context. Good but certainly not great. Limited to an extent and seemingly out of his depth at SMW where his acheivements at that weight were almost non existant.

Kessler - competitve loss to a good fighter, but again Ward and Calzaghe probably highlight his real level which is shy of elite.

Dirrell - close competitve win over a fighter that looks talented but hasnt really established himself as yet. It may look better in the future if Dirrell can go on and achieve more. But will end up looking more averag and debateable if Dirrell ends up fading off the scene.

Taylor - although I dont ever get the argument that a last round KO is not a real means of winning I do think the fact he was outboxed in large periods by a fading Taylor who had already been knocked out and outpointed by a guy like Pavlik does raise question marks over Froch.

Pascal - definately his best win for me over an world level fighter.

The difference a win or loss over Ward makes to Frochs career and legacy as well as the manner of his win/loss is gigantic for me.

Alot of depends on where you are approaching Frochs career from. An alltime great? British Great? Elite Fighter? I think these all have question marks that the Ward fight should answer. A win makes him the man at SMW, establishing himself as the best SMW in a competitive era in the division. A loss and suddenly he has arguably lost to the two best fighters he ever faced as well as somewhat questionable wins over Dirrell and Taylor to a lesser exent.

So alot rests on this fight for Froch I feel. I think Froch benefits fom the feel good factor the fans have of a fighter that is willing to test himself and take on the biggest challenges. But actual legacy wise and talent wise there are still big question marks over where he will ultimately rank. A win could propel him to a certified British Great whereas a loss would mean he was just a good contender in a competitive division.

I actually think despite Kessler's heavy loss to Ward and subsequent win over Froch I think Froch fares a lot better over Ward than Kessler did. Kessler was outboxed (and outbutted) but simply not with it that night. Besides, Kessler being typically European style wise had no answer to Ward's dirty tactics whereas Froch won't mind the juicy stuff so much. Can see it being 7-5 or 8-4 to Ward but a fight at 6-6 sadly goes to Ward.

There's been a hell of a lot of robberies lately which is sending boxing into the farcial territories of WWE. You might as well have a pre-defined script where the winner is already determined before the fight so unfortunately for Froch, anything other than a KO or a sound 12 round battering of Ward is going to mean Froch travles back to Nottingham with an item less in his suitcase.

Get the feeling Ward is "supposed" to win the fight given how he's had every fight at home and being Olympic Champion he's somehow pre-destined to win it. Ward wins a close and possibly controversial decision.

I think Froch gets unfairly criticised with hindsight already, in as much as people seem to forget that he's still only had twenty odd fights. He is certainly a better fighter now than he was a few years ago, and looks sharper post Kessler.
Inexperience cost him against Taylor and Kessler, and I think he'd fair better now if he were to fight those again.

I would not be surprised to see Froch get robbed in america tbh it has been happening to alot of British fighters lately look at Chisora, Macklin and Murray if you fight in your opponents back yard you are taking a big chance and Froch might need to win by knock out.

I would not be surprised to see Froch get robbed in America.....etc

Don't start thinking judges in England are paragons of virtue..

He actually beat Taylor though. I think the Kessler loss did wake him up into being a boxing rather than a brawler. In saying that, I still think Kessler was some way off his best in winning.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I would not be surprised to see Froch get robbed in America.....etc

Don't start thinking judges in England are paragons of virtue..

Nobody is but where the British are pretty bad the Americans (who I always thought were the most fair) and quickly catching up, the complete farce of Pacquio and Williams' wins lately are making the Americans seem almost as clownish as the Germans. Unless Froch KOs Ward I think another robbery could be looming........

Have to be brutally honest - I think Ward will win this fight by a convincing enough margin to make any possibility of a 'robbery' virtually non-existent. Originally had this down as a 60:40 fight in Ward's favour, but as it draws nearer I find myself sliding ever-nearer to 70:30.

Super D Boon wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I would not be surprised to see Froch get robbed in America.....etc

Don't start thinking judges in England are paragons of virtue..

Nobody is but where the British are pretty bad the Americans (who I always thought were the most fair) and quickly catching up, the complete farce of Pacquio and Williams' wins lately are making the Americans seem almost as clownish as the Germans. Unless Froch KOs Ward I think another robbery could be looming........

I think you could be right, Germany is a joke you need a knock out to get a draw there america is not as bad but look at Pacquiao who robbed Marquez imo and lets not forget Holyfield who robbed Lewis in their first fight I think that could happen again.

unfortunately i have seen this scenario all too much on this board. a boxer is brilliant until he is beaten.

i know many of you were haye fans, and now he's apparently one of the worst heavyweight champions ever. joke.

recently it's happened with manny. after marquez III he's not that good, and mayweather will eat him for breakfast. before this fight he was an unstoppable machine.

very, very, short memories of some people here.

If its a shutout I don't think it will take anything away from Froch but just prove what a quality fighter Ward is!!

For the record though, I don't think this will be anywhere near a shutout, Ward's last 2 fights with Bika and Abraham weren't complete shutouts and definitely think Froch will give Ward a tougher fight!!

I think Ward wins by comforable/tightish decision, but Froch will be game!!

OasisBFC wrote:unfortunately i have seen this scenario all too much on this board. a boxer is brilliant until he is beaten.

i know many of you were haye fans, and now he's apparently one of the worst heavyweight champions ever. joke.

recently it's happened with manny. after marquez III he's not that good, and mayweather will eat him for breakfast. before this fight he was an unstoppable machine.

very, very, short memories of some people here.

Before the wlad fight, people were saying how little haye had done as a heavyweight and that stylistically he could have caused wlad problems. He stepped up and got schooled. The only decent HW on his CV was wlad and he was totally outclassed. We respect him as a cruiser but the heavyweight version of haye was all hype.

With pacquiao, he should have KOed marquez, lets be honest. They fought 2 very close fights in 2004 and 2008. This fight was at welterweight, a weight pacquiao was the king at. Pacquiao was 'supposedly' a better fighter who hits harder and is technically sounder, and he was too schooled again by the older lightweight. You can't tell me that your opinion of the floyd vs pac outcome didn't change after that fight. He wasn't an unstoppable machine either, he was critisised vs mosley also for not being able to figure how to get to him

Fair points, all, Azania. I wouldn't mind positing an alternative "what if?" scenario for Froch, however. What if Froch does beat Ward (which he is rightly not favourite to manage), then goes on to gain revenge over Kessler and beat Bute? He must surely have a claim to be among the top ten fighters ever sent out by the UK. That's certainly how I would see it, at any rate.

You're spot on if Froch does do that, Captain. I'd be very surprised, however, and see him losing fairly handily to Ward. How've you got that one?

Ward by two or three rounds, unfortunately, Fists. I just can't see a way round it.

I've got Froch grinding his way to a hard fought points victory, he's been in at the deep end while Ward thus far has not, think that may turn out to be the deciding factor in the closing rounds of a close fight.

Were he to beat Ward, Kessler and then Bute he would have to overtake Calzaghe, all the criticisms of his previous opposition would disapear and he would rightly be regarded as the main man in a tough division. Any subsequent wins at light heavyweight would only enhance his legacy more but it's a bit ask especially with his advancing years.

I've got it by about 4 or 5 I'm afraid, hope I'm wrong but I do think Froch is going to find it difficult to do enough to get a clear round win from the judges.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I've got Froch grinding his way to a hard fought points victory, he's been in at the deep end while Ward thus far has not, think that may turn out to be the deciding factor in the closing rounds of a close fight.

Were he to beat Ward, Kessler and then Bute he would have to overtake Calzaghe, all the criticisms of his previous opposition would disapear and he would rightly be regarded as the main man in a tough division. Any subsequent wins at light heavyweight would only enhance his legacy more but it's a bit ask especially with his advancing years.

Would love you to be right, Ghosty.

I see ward winning by a UD of 117-111, he is too quick and skillful for froch. Everyone is saying froch will grind him down if he wins, i don't think it's the case. Ward was strong enough to compete on the inside vs kessler who is as strong as froch. Froch needs to box smartly using his jab and hoping to hit ward with a huge punch when he comes in the get his shots off

azania wrote:
If he loses I see similar parallels to Hatton. Good until being beaten.

Well, if he loses to Ward in the same manner that Hatton lost to Paquaio (2 KD's in the 1st before getting almost decapitated in the 2nd) than I'd imagine he would get a strong amount of grief.
However, if he puts up a valiant effort and gives Ward a competitive fight than I doubt opinion would change all that much. After all, most people view him as the underdog going in.

I feel he'll still be seen as he is now; a game and tough fighter with obvious flaws. Nobody is suggesting that he's a top P4P boxer.

can't lose by a shutout or people will qu him, but if he keeps it close or even disputed then his record is still superb. Regardless, he has done more than 99% of British SM and modern SM in general

If people question his record should he lose to Ward, then they can't really criticise the likes of Calzaghe for spending years playing it safe.

Genuine world level fighter who has gone several years without a marking time fight (probably that Pole who came in as a sub for Inkin in 2008 was the last one and you can't really blame him for that).

If there were more of his ilk in boxing then a lot of the 'what if' riddles would be solved and we'd know exactly how good more fighters were. He deserves nothing but respect for that.

I do think that khan will take the #1 british p4p fighter if froch loses to ward and khan beats peterson which is a shame imo as froch has been in with the better company. It's good however to see two english world champions wanting to fight the very best

If Froch beats Ward then he is the best in the division no doubts about that yes he lost to Kessler but it was close and if that fight was in England I think he would have won. Lets not forget Ward schooled Kessler also. If he loses then Ward will be the best in the division unless it is a robbery which I think there might be. Lets be honest if this fight is close then Ward will get the decision he is the home fighter who the Americans want as their next star. Froch might need to win this by KO.

Waingro wrote:If Froch beats Ward then he is the best in the division no doubts about that yes he lost to Kessler but it was close and if that fight was in England I think he would have won. Lets not forget Ward schooled Kessler also. If he loses then Ward will be the best in the division unless it is a robbery which I think there might be. Lets be honest if this fight is close then Ward will get the decision he is the home fighter who the Americans want as their next star. Froch might need to win this by KO.

I agree. If Froch wins he's the best, even though Kessler beat him, but had the fight been in England Froch would have got a gift hometown verdict which would have been ok, so it doesn't matter that he lost to Kessler. Likewise, if Ward wins it means he's the best, unless he wins via a gift decision, which would mean he isn't the best and Froch is, because Froch would have got a gift decision against Kessler if the fight had been in Nottingham, even though such decisions are bad.

Keep 'em coming, Waingro.

88Chris05 wrote:

Waingro wrote:If Froch beats Ward then he is the best in the division no doubts about that yes he lost to Kessler but it was close and if that fight was in England I think he would have won. Lets not forget Ward schooled Kessler also. If he loses then Ward will be the best in the division unless it is a robbery which I think there might be. Lets be honest if this fight is close then Ward will get the decision he is the home fighter who the Americans want as their next star. Froch might need to win this by KO.

I agree. If Froch wins he's the best, even though Kessler beat him, but had the fight been in England Froch would have got a gift hometown verdict which would have been ok, so it doesn't matter that he lost to Kessler. Likewise, if Ward wins it means he's the best, unless he wins via a gift decision, which would mean he isn't the best and Froch is, because Froch would have got a gift decision against Kessler if the fight had been in Nottingham, even though such decisions are bad.

Keep 'em coming, Waingro.

Lol you are are right I dod not explain that very well I did another post but delted by mistake which was clearer. If Froch wins he will be the best in the division if Ward wins then he will be the best but if Ward robs Froch will people still say he is the best? Imo they will not and people will say Froch is the best.

Think about it, would people say Hellenius is better than Chisora? Hellenius is not a proper champ imo Chisora should be the proper Euro champ.

As much as I dislike his cocky attitude, you can't fault his record. He lost a close fight to Kessler and perhaps if it was in Nottingham it would've been different. I personally had Dirrell outboxing him but you can't knock the guy. He's willing to take on the best and travel if he has to. You can't say the same for previous 168lb champ Calzaghe. Skillwise, he's average. He's a hard man with a good chin and good punch. Ward will beat him.