Tiger is back in the winners circle- returns to world's top 20!

by monty junior Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:15 pm

First topic message reminder :

What a great finish, vintage Tiger, thrilling notworthy

by Sand Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:45 am

GT350 wrote:Gael - I think you're fishing. It really is self explanatory.

As for the "Tin-Pot" tournament, to be fair, it was just one of three being played last weekend and contested by 11 of the world's top 25 players. That is as many as the Hong Kong and Nedbank combined.
The Chevron was every bit a test for someone on the road back from injury as the Nedbank or the Hong Kong Open was for two players currently at the top of their game. Some people need to understand that picking your moments is part of the process of building confidence in any sport and it takes some thought. I would say all three did a good job last week.

As for the OWGR issue, it may not be a perfect system but it is the same for everyone. People hate the OWGR when it doesn't reflect their own views, but the numbers just don't lie. The reason Tiger Woods moved over twenty places up the rankings, is simply that even his worst two years have been better than most of those players between ten and fifty in the rankings.Not good by his standards, but good enough for most others.

Not quite sure that last bit is correct about the OWGR but simply dont know enough about it. Its quite clear that too many OWGR points were given out last week with an 18 man tournament.

by super_realist Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:46 am

Monty, I think its you who needs your head read. Woods has never won seven consecutive tournaments either, let alone multiply.

I'm talking about when faldo amd Norman were the dominant players I'm not saying they were better, but they didn't get this sycophantic overexposure.

It's not my fault if woods is injured or doing swing changes. Doesn't mean he should get disproportionate coverage.

by GWR-Golfer Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:53 am

oldparwin wrote:GWR
Not sure what you are drinking, but I think its turning you blind, Tiger played exceptionally well last week in all 4 rounds

No he didn't - he had a 73 in the 3rd round

by Del_Boy Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:55 am

[quote="super_realist"]Monty, I think its you who needs your head read. Woods has never won seven consecutive tournaments either, let alone multiply.

quote]

I'm sure he had 7 straight wins in 2006-2007

by GWR-Golfer Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:58 am

monty junior wrote:
Marcus wrote:A good win for Tiger, but there's no way that a charity/exhibition tournament should carry world ranking points, let alone enough for someone to jump 30 places. It's unfair on the other players who have now dropped in the rankings simply because they don't worship at the feet of Tiger and subsequently weren't invited. Same goes for Sun City.

It will be interesting to see how he gets on when he goes up against the world's best. He still has a lot of work to do to win a regular event IMO.

Erm this wasn't an invitational this was based on the world rankings. You have to be top 50 to be elidgible and at the cut off Tiger was 49.

.

Tiger was No. 51 in the World at the time and INVITED HIMSELF otherwise he wouldn't have qualified for his own "exhibition" tournament

by Del_Boy Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:22 am

GWR-Golfer wrote:
monty junior wrote:
Marcus wrote:A good win for Tiger, but there's no way that a charity/exhibition tournament should carry world ranking points, let alone enough for someone to jump 30 places. It's unfair on the other players who have now dropped in the rankings simply because they don't worship at the feet of Tiger and subsequently weren't invited. Same goes for Sun City.

It will be interesting to see how he gets on when he goes up against the world's best. He still has a lot of work to do to win a regular event IMO.

Erm this wasn't an invitational this was based on the world rankings. You have to be top 50 to be elidgible and at the cut off Tiger was 49.

.
Tiger was No. 51 in the World at the time and INVITED HIMSELF otherwise he wouldn't have qualified for his own "exhibition" tournament

Tiger was actually ranked number 49 at the cut off and just scraped in. Criteria is the organisers can offer 2 places to whoever they wish provided they are in the top 50 at the cut off point which this year was after the BMW.

by super_realist Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:27 am

[quote="Del_Boy"]

super_realist wrote:Monty, I think its you who needs your head read. Woods has never won seven consecutive tournaments either, let alone multiply.

quote]

I'm sure he had 7 straight wins in 2006-2007

Fair enough he did, but that hardly justifies his over-exposure now.
Byron Nelson once won 11 in a row, do we still see loads of him?
Golf, like every other sport should be about the here and now, not the "get the camera on me because i'm dining out on past achievements"

by Del_Boy Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:40 am

[quote="super_realist"]

Del_Boy wrote:
super_realist wrote:Monty, I think its you who needs your head read. Woods has never won seven consecutive tournaments either, let alone multiply.

quote]

I'm sure he had 7 straight wins in 2006-2007

Fair enough he did, but that hardly justifies his over-exposure now.
Byron Nelson once won 11 in a row, do we still see loads of him?
Golf, like every other sport should be about the here and now, not the "get the camera on me because i'm dining out on past achievements"

As previously mentioned I think his over exposure now beacouse good or bad he is probably most talked about golfer.

Using other people's analargy some people wouldn't recognise Mr Nelson's 11 in a row as some of those wins were like winning the mid-week medal.

I think that brings up a new debate. What is the here and now for golf? Achievements in a rolling 12 months, 24 months or more. My view is probably last 3 years.

by super_realist Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:43 am

Three years? That's a bit generous. How would you rate your own career :-golf and employment in the last three years. Never seen the point in looking into the distant past.

I don't think it makes any sense to rank players or consider their form on any more than one season. There are simply too many things that can change in that time.

by Del_Boy Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:55 am

super_realist wrote:Three years? That's a bit generous. How would you rate your own career :-golf and employment in the last three years. Never seen the point in looking into the distant past.

I don't think it makes any sense to rank players or consider their form on any more than one season. There are simply too many things that can change in that time.

Golf achievements in the last 3 years average but sadly on a downwards trend. Employment getting better. I'm always been told I'm a generous type of a guy.

by gaelgowfer Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:15 am

GT350 wrote:Gael - I think you're fishing. It really is self explanatory.

As for the "Tin-Pot" tournament, to be fair, it was just one of three being played last weekend and contested by 11 of the world's top 25 players. That is as many as the Hong Kong and Nedbank combined.
The Chevron was every bit a test for someone on the road back from injury as the Nedbank or the Hong Kong Open was for two players currently at the top of their game. Some people need to understand that picking your moments is part of the process of building confidence in any sport and it takes some thought. I would say all three did a good job last week.

As for the OWGR issue, it may not be a perfect system but it is the same for everyone. People hate the OWGR when it doesn't reflect their own views, but the numbers just don't lie. The reason Tiger Woods moved over twenty places up the rankings, is simply that even his worst two years have been better than most of those players between ten and fifty in the rankings.Not good by his standards, but good enough for most others.

"Fishing"? Fishing for what, pray tell? I asked you a simple question which you have thusfar refused to answer.

There is no doubt I have contempt for Tiger Woods but "irrational" contempt? Why is it irrational? If you're going to use such emotive words then be prepared to back it up with a proper explanation otherwise I will be forced to conclude that you're the one who's being irrational.

by monty junior Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:09 am

super_realist wrote:Monty, I think its you who needs your head read. Woods has never won seven consecutive tournaments either, let alone multiply.

I'm talking about when faldo amd Norman were the dominant players I'm not saying they were better, but they didn't get this sycophantic overexposure.

It's not my fault if woods is injured or doing swing changes. Doesn't mean he should get disproportionate coverage.

No i don't he won 7 from 2006-2007, he's also won 6 and 5 consecutively. Fair enough you don't like the guy, but he's a far more dominant player than Faldo and Norman ever were. As for the Nelson comparison for a guy who barely moves from his chair anymore you can hardly expect a huge amount of coverage. Oh look Byron has just emerged from his seat and is now off to the toilet.. stunning work!

by Del_Boy Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:19 am

[quote="monty junior"]

super_realist wrote:As for the Nelson comparison for a guy who barely moves from his chair anymore you can hardly expect a huge amount of coverage. Oh look Byron has just emerged from his seat and is now off to the toilet.. stunning work!

He hasn't had many moves since 06 (i think). He's brown bread.

by monty junior Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:53 am

Oops

by oldparwin Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:37 pm

I think all of you, who hate Tiger, are going to be in for a difficult 12 months, if he can get his mojo back and start winning again, would think that the odds on him winning all 4 majors will be shortening all the time.

Sorry folks but it will be interesting reading your post about him in the coming months

by Del_Boy Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:45 pm

oldparwin wrote:I think all of you, who hate Tiger, are going to be in for a difficult 12 months, if he can get his mojo back and start winning again, would think that the odds on him winning all 4 majors will be shortening all the time.

Sorry folks but it will be interesting reading your post about him in the coming months

That would give some of them even more reason to comment on Tiger. Good or bad a lot of people like to talk about Mr Woods

by Shotrock Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:56 pm

You would have to be a tad delusional of have your head in the sand to not see the impending Tiger/Rory battles coming up. Sure, other players will contend on any given tournament, but these appear to be the big dogs.

by super_realist Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:05 pm

Shotrock wrote:You would have to be a tad delusional of have your head in the sand to not see the impending Tiger/Rory battles coming up. Sure, other players will contend on any given tournament, but these appear to be the big dogs.

I will agree if Woods was to get back to consistent tournament results, but in the last two years he's done nothing but win a second rate exhibition and he was frankly somewhat fortunate to win that.

I see 2012 being between the current top 4 by some distance with possibly Jason Day, Dustin Johnson, Adam Scott challenging and coming someway behind Sergio Garcia, who had a really good year in 2011, and looks a far more likely "comeback" than Woods right now.

Woods still has a tremendous amount to prove so it's putting the cart before the horse to say 2012 will be a showdown between him and McIlroy.
Good job golf courses don't have doorways, don't think those two could get through.

by Gregers Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:08 pm

Congrats to Mr Woods, has been hard to watch him being so out of sorts. IMO he will never recapture his best in the world title. Wouldn't be surprised if he wins a major in the next two years tho...

by Shotrock Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:11 pm

S_R - Why are you stuck on this two-year time frame? Tiger was not healthy for 18 months during the past two years. It's only in the past few months where he's had any form, and it appears to be on the way up.

Hey, I could be wrong ... maybe he and Rory won't get a top 10 in any major. That said, if I were a betting man I would take those two above all others for best combined finishes in majors in 2012.

by super_realist Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:17 pm

SR,

For two people to be going having a sporting rivalry in 2012 then you naturally assume that both players are going to have some sort of form behind them

McIlroy is clearly in form, Woods hasn't proven anything by winning an exhibition tournament.

That is why I said that I AGREE WITH YOU IF HE SHOWS CONSISTENT FORM.

however, one swallow, does not make a summer. There are a dozen players who could be considered to be better rivals for Mcilroy based on current form. All you're hoping for is that Woods will instantly return to his old self, when there is no guarantee that he will. So let's leave all this nonsense talk about a Woods/McIlroy rivalry alone until BOTH players are actually in a position to have one.

by kwinigolfer Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:18 pm

Interestingly, the golfer who, by quite a wide margin, achieved "best combined finishes in majors in" 2011 seems to receive no ink at all.
I've a feeling he prefers it that way though.

by ralphjohn69 Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:21 pm

Charl Schwartzel kwini?? idea

by Shotrock Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:23 pm

Of course he's coming into some form.

He didn't just win an exhibition tournament ... he make the cut and placed "ok" in the Fry's tournament, made the cut and placed "better" in the Aussie Open, "won" his singles match and the winning point in the President's cup.

Consider all the players you want as better rivals for McIlroy ... Tiger (barring injury again) is the best bet IMO.

by kwinigolfer Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:25 pm

Correct ralph!
I've a feeling King Charl will have something to say about the destiny of 2012's big events. Didn't miss a Tour cut last year, carefully under the radar.

by super_realist Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:31 pm

SR, I'm talking about real form, an he's done nothing remarkable.
Yes he's played better in the last couple of tournaments, but is this enough to base an entire two man rivalry.

All I'm saying is lets see what happens next season before jumping in to some Federer/Nadal tussle.

I don't see how you can say that Woods is a better rival to McIlroy when his form is still in question, especially when Donald, Kaymer, Day, Scott etc have shown genuine form in 2011 (while Donald is head and shoulders above EVERYONE in World Golf right now), not just at the tail end when no one else can be arsed.

Let's reassess after Woods plays several "proper" tournaments. Not tinpot Chevron's and Journeymen littered Australian Opens OK? It looks a lot like papering over cracks right now. Lets not forget the times when he stunk the place out in the Presidents Cup, itself a tinpot tournament.

If there's a rivalry to be had, it will happen.

by ralphjohn69 Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:34 pm

Agreed kwini.

I also strongly fancy Jason Day to win big soon, possibly starting at augusta in april; too good a player not to have won yet and almost won the masters last year. Admittedly his recent form has been patchy but he'll be back I reckon.

by John Cregan Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:44 pm

The jury still definately out on Woods. Im not convinced that under real major pressure he will be able to hole the 6-8 footers with the 90% plus regularity that he used to...........

The great thing about golf at the moment is that there are 30+ players with real Major credentials and i feel sorry for Donald and Westwood, the current "best players without a major", in that they could play to their best on any Major week and still come up empty handed, while having to cope with the pressure that the "best player without a major" tag brings............

by John Cregan Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:48 pm

Luke Donald himself would not agree with the assertion that he is "head and shoulders" above everyone in world golf right now...............

by super_realist Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:51 pm

John Cregan wrote:Luke Donald himself would not agree with the assertion that he is "head and shoulders" above everyone in world golf right now...............

Of course he wouldn't, he's a modest, humble man, but it's hard to argue given his incredible consistency of top ten finishes, startling scoring average and chasm like lead in the World Rankings.

by Shotrock Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:55 pm

You and I have a very different opinion of "head and shoulder above" then! Donald certainly top golfer, but NOT dominating by any means. A major .... any major? It's really all about the "Ws"!

by super_realist Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:58 pm

Well, I can't think of any golfer who has come close to him this year, McIlroy is the closest, but he's played some dross too.

by GT350 Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:43 am

Gael, you give yourself far too much credit. I am sorry if this bursts your ego bubble but I hadn't even considered your name in my initial post. Secondly, I am not required or inclined to justify my choice of words. You on the other hand are free to conclude whatever you like. Sorry, but it won't change my day.

Totally agree with the comments by Shotrock and oldparwin re: the prospects for the next 12 months. The thought of a confident Rory McIlroy going head to head with an improving Tiger Woods is mouth watering. Of course there will be a handful of others in the hunt and some will win as they always have, but it won't alter the main event.
Bury your head as far up your rear end as you want, but like it or not it seems probable that Tiger Woods is going to add to his title collection. Maybe not in the prolific fashion of 2000-2008, but then who else has? I have a list of one.

Perhaps I am missing something, but considering the facts, I fail to see how the Chevron was any less of a tournament than the Nedbank or the HK Open.

by gaelgowfer Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:34 am

GT350

I see, you can't come up with a cogent argument as to why those who have contempt for Tiger Woods is "irrational" so have resorted to insults instead. Disappointing but, sadly, all too predictable.

Tiger Woods may well win a proper tournament again but it won't change the contempt I have for him which is not only based on his conduct off the course but on the course as well.

by super_realist Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:40 am

That's seems to be the thing that Tiger lovers can't accept.
They think if you dislike Woods then it must be irrational. Truth is there's a very long list of reasons to dislike the man, and you don't even need to mention his private life.

by JDandfries Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:21 am

super_realist wrote:That's seems to be the thing that Tiger lovers can't accept.
They think if you dislike Woods then it must be irrational. Truth is there's a very long list of reasons to dislike the man, and you don't even need to mention his private life.

Totally agree.

I have a sort of apathetic view on Mr Woods.

On one hand, I have been in awe of his ability as a golfer and his ability/mindset to win!

On the other, his behaviour off the course and his demeanor on it, are poor to say the least.

I dont have an opinion on whether I like him or not, but it is easy to see why people would dislike him!

by Hibbz Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:56 pm

Could it not be argued that any "liking/disliking" of a sports star or team you have no actual involvement with is somewhat irrational?

I mean how does it have any actual affect on our lives whether so and so wins or loses?

I care as much as the next person when I'm watching sport but I don't think my emotions could be described as rational at such a time.

by GT350 Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:35 pm

Well I am obviously at a disadvantage here. I do not have any personal feelings toward Mr. Woods at all. I do admire his golfing skills and his ability to focus himself on his chosen goals, but as for his general behaviour on the golf course and towards his fans, I agree he does not come across with the same warmth as say a Tom Watson for example. That said, I can only guess at how I might react if subjected to the same level of scrutiny, so who am I to judge?
Unlike some, I don't feel the need to criticise every players waistline, haircut, accent, nationality, fist pump or amount of time spent in idle banter with fans mid tournament. I find that all irellevant and just enjoy the golf.

by gaelgowfer Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:38 pm

Hibbz, in answer to your first two paras, no, because in so far as I'm concerned, I have concerns about his on-course conduct as well and that not only impacts of my enjoyment of watching the game but also how an up and coming generation of golfers may perceive how the game should be played from an etiquette perspective.

The game has an etiquette code for good reason. Not much fun in being partnered with someone for anywhere between 3 - 5 hours who is a bad-tempered, foul-mouthed, club-throwing, gobbing boor whose behaviour is more redolent of some of the more vulgar sports played which don't have an etiquette code.

Tiger Woods knows that his every shot is being televised across the world and must therefore be aware that youngsters will be watching his every action. Neverthelss, not only did he feel "entitled" to put his wife and unborn children at risk from STDs but, even now, still feels "entitled" to believe the game's etiquette code doesn't apply to him.

by Shotrock Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:54 pm

Tiger's on-course behavior is just fine.

He's under a microscope and you can be sure if there were serious continued offenses to the level many a tiger-hater envisions, there would be fines a-plenty.There aren't.

Could you imagine the uproar today if Tiger laced his club into his bag like Paul Lawrie did early today? It's an intense, high pressure environment.

Plus, how many of his competitors have any complaints about his behavior?

by super_realist Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:58 pm

Shotrock wrote:Tiger's on-course behavior is just fine.

He's under a microscope and you can be sure if there were serious continued offenses to the level many a tiger-hater envisions, there would be fines a-plenty.There aren't.

Could you imagine the uproar today if Tiger laced his club into his bag like Paul Lawrie did early today? It's an intense, high pressure environment.

Plus, how many of his competitors have any complaints about his behavior?

Yes, spitting is delightful behaviour, not to mention the facial expression that looks like someone has just shat in his mouth. Not a pleasant man to watch because he simply doesn't look like he wants to be there.
Same as lots of players I suppose but he seems to be worse than anyone.

by gaelgowfer Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:00 pm

Thank you Shotrock ... you've just made my point.

by oldparwin Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:21 pm

Sorry but his on course antics, are not all that bad compared to others, its just that the camera,s are on him all the time. He might have had affairs of the course, but most famous people do as part of their make up, just look at Faldo, and the amount of womanising he did.

When you watch his shot making and putting, then he is head and shoulders above all other golfers, and will prove he is back in 2012

by gaelgowfer Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:27 pm

Whereas OP ... you're missing it!!! Very Happy

by super_realist Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:27 pm

Op there was a time when his shot making was special, it had to be because like an American soldier he was trigger happy and consequently inaccurate.
We simply don't know if he'll be able to keep up with the current top ten. Far too early to say. Especially with a knackered knee

by Hibbz Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:47 pm

gaelgowfer wrote:Hibbz, in answer to your first two paras, no, because in so far as I'm concerned, I have concerns about his on-course conduct as well and that not only impacts of my enjoyment of watching the game but also how an up and coming generation of golfers may perceive how the game should be played from an etiquette perspective.

The game has an etiquette code for good reason. Not much fun in being partnered with someone for anywhere between 3 - 5 hours who is a bad-tempered, foul-mouthed, club-throwing, gobbing boor whose behaviour is more redolent of some of the more vulgar sports played which don't have an etiquette code.

Tiger Woods knows that his every shot is being televised across the world and must therefore be aware that youngsters will be watching his every action. Neverthelss, not only did he feel "entitled" to put his wife and unborn children at risk from STDs but, even now, still feels "entitled" to believe the game's etiquette code doesn't apply to him.

Yep that would make your loathing rational Gaelgowfer, though I get the feeling you'd blame Mr Woods for the current recession and last nights storms if you could! Don't get me wrong I'm not his biggest fan though in a conversation with my Dad I found it hard to name a current golfer I didn't have a bad word or two for! Kaymer I guess, and maybe Quiros though I did say Quiros didn't tend to challenge in Majors. Hope he proves me wrong.

Genuine question for you, I tried to answer it myself but then realised the junior section at my club was practically non-existent currently. Do you think golf course behaviour, junior or otherwise has got worse since Tiger's appearance and if so has it got worse at the same level, a greater level or a lesser level when compared to society as a whole?

by Shotrock Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:59 pm

Gael - uh, ok.

Also, let me know when you get that list of TW's competitors that complain about his on-course behavior ... Rolling Eyes

by McLaren Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:13 pm

I wonder do people think that tiger will be able to maintain the form he showed and chevron, get worse or get better.

As long as the answer is not get worse then he is sure to rocket up the rankings next year. I do not think the current top ten is as strong as in the past so see no reason why tiger cant muscle his may in there. As to major glory for tiger we will just have to wait and see. But based on the courses these are what I think his chances are

Master: Quite good if his short game is in shape
US Open: (Olympic) dont see this being the one
Open: (Lythm) If he turns up in his chevron taking it easy of the tee mode then maybe.
PGA: (Kiawah) Not sure about this one

by kwinigolfer Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:23 pm

That's a good question Mac.
I'd say:
Masters: 4/1 (Bet without the favourite)
US Open: 16/1
Lytham: 10/1
Kiawah: 20/1

by Faldono1fan Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:43 pm

I can't see Tiger winning at Lytham. His best chance will probably be at Augusta. He needs to win a full field event before then. I wasn't convinced with his win at the Chevron. I agree that birdies at the last 2 holes was stunning.but I also think laying up at 16th showed his confidence is not where it needs to be yet.

by Sponsored content