Chris Ashton starts brawl at Welford Road

A seperate thread away from the main Tigers V Saints game post to discuss in more detail the incident provoked by Chris Aston.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0dcme2wCGBs#!

For those who haven't seen/heard the incident yet... Alessano Tuilagi makes a break down the wing (crumbie side) and hands off Chris Ashton. Chris Ashton grabs hold of Tuiagis hair as he goes bay and swings him to the ground, then taking a firm grip on his dreadlocks, drags him across the pitch into touch.

Tuilagi is less than happy. As he stands up he gives Ashton a dig in the ribs.

I think it was Matt Smith (?) runs in to try and split them up.

Courtney Lawes runs in and starts swinging.

Players from both team pile in to join or sperate (depending on your point of view I suppose).

Geordan Murphy jumps in and launches a couple back at Courtney.

Tom Wood runs across the park and delivers a flurry of punches into the melee.

The ball boy who is stood watching a little too close gets swallowed up the brawl and lucky not to be injured.

Officials finally restore order.

Barnes in a shocking & disgraceful decision red cards Tuilagi (the victim of Ashtons foul & dangerous play) and then red cards Tom Wood (fair enough decision I thought).

Ashton walks away unpunished and (alledgedly from some of the supporters in the Crumbie, although I didn't see this) grinning & winking at the crowd.

This should go before the citing panel this week and lengthy bans for Ashton, Lawes & Wood. Most likely Murphy too. But will Alessano also pick up a ban for reacting to Ashtons attack in the way he did? Unfair to be sure, but likely.

Haven't seen it but if your description is accurate and not at all biased then i agree

If Tuilagi punched someone into the ribs, he gets a red card. You say that Tuilagi will probably get a ban but that it was disgraceful to red card him. If he did something that warrants that he be suspended from playing rugby for several weeks he deserved a red card.

The citing commissioner will take into account that his hair was pulled and probably get a reduced sentence.

Sorry just re-read it. . . . .Did Ashton get NO red card?????????????????????

Apalling.

First Leicester man on the scene - after Tuilagi, was Agulla who through a lot of punches - rubbish ones but that should not matter. Towards the end Murphy did the same. Both should be cited and banned - which is crap for us.

Wood and Tuilagi will have to face a hearing due to the red cards. After looking at the tapes I still feel that Tuilagi was only pushing and shoving, bearing in mind the provocation I hope he is given no ban - but I reckon he will be banned. Wood was by no means the worst offender from Saints (and far less punches thrown than Agulla/Murphy). He did throw and connect with at least two punches so probably a bottom end band, halved for good behaviour.

Lawes - was probably the worst Saints offender - but again threw less punches than A/M. However being taller he delivered better quality punches.

Ashton in my view should be cited - but I doubt he will be.

I didn't see the game but heard about the incident.From what I heard the linesman recommended the Leicester winger should be sent off. He was I believe referring to Agulla who allegedly threw some punches? Alesana Tuilagi got sent off instead.

From what I heard the following players should be in hot water:

Wood,Ashton from Saints
Agulla and Murphy from Tigers

Possibly Lawes and A.Tuilagi too.

Metal Tiger did Lawes connect with a punch?

Ashton is in danger of being more trouble than he is worth. Yes he is a cracking player but i would be far more contrite than he seemingly is after his display against the Scarlets. He needs to just put the head down and get back to letting his try scoring do the talking. It will be interesting to see the approach the next england coach takes.

People talk a lot about how its the older players who are the trouble in the England team.

However to me its the likes of Chris Ashton, Manu Tuilagi, Delon Armitage that seem to cause the most trouble and end up on headlines for wrong reasons.

Apologies to all but some merkin has blocked the youtube feed claiming copyright infringement.

mckay1402,

I can wear my Tiger Specs from time to time but I do believe I am a reasonably fair & balanced poster on here. My report is fairly accurate other than I said Matt Smith was first on the scene but it was actually Agulla.

Staggy,

Unbelievable I know but none of the officialls took any action against Ashton.

LT,

There could be bans for 3 or 4 players from both sides, which with the HEC and our respective league positions in the Aviva could be disastrous for both team.

Ashton could have ruined the seasons for both teams!!

Thats disgraceful Tiger. I hope a lenghty ban is en route.

How do English posters feel about the three guys I've mentioned. Personally I think you need a absolute bollixer of a coach who can put these type of people in their place.

Currently IMO the trio are poisonous.

Think the video is still available on Rugbydump.com.

Fairly accurate description by MT though.

Metal Tiger did Lawes connect with a punch?.

Don't know but he certainly connects with an elbow to the back of Alesana's head.

I think Wood got into trouble because he ran from so far out and the first thing he did on arriving was throw an upper cut. Geordan comes into break it up until he sees Wood throw the upper cut and then he throws a couple of haymakers that don't connect. Agulla well he is in deep trouble, I believe the term is wind milling.

Agulla will get 2-3 weeks along with Lawes, Wood and Geordan. Ashton should be given a longer ban as that was disgraceful and Alesana really didn't deserve to be sent off.

beshocked wrote:I didn't see the game but heard about the incident.From what I heard the linesman recommended the Leicester winger should be sent off. He was I believe referring to Agulla who allegedly threw some punches? Alesana Tuilagi got sent off instead.

From what I heard the following players should be in hot water:

Wood,Ashton from Saints
Agulla and Murphy from Tigers

Possibly Lawes and A.Tuilagi too.

Metal Tiger did Lawes connect with a punch?

I thought Lawes got in a couple of good connections.

It's unclear if Tuilagi actually threw a punch, from one angle it looks like he has a cheeky dig in the ribs, but you can't see the connection as it is hidden behind bodies, from another angle it looks as if he is pushing Ashton away in anger.

But when the melee kicks off with players flying in from both teams there are fists swinging left, right & centre. I think I saw Courtney connect on Tui who then retaliates with a couple of wild swings but misses. I would like to check that but the footage has been blocked now.

However to me its the likes of Chris Ashton, Manu Tuilagi, Delon Armitage that seem to cause the most trouble and end up on headlines for wrong reasons..

Ashton is a wind up merchant with a taste for the theratrical. He set up a brilliant score for Saints in the second half and actually played rather well after he stopped playing the fool. I noticed he stopped the idiocy in the second half, probabley co-incided with a force 9 bolloxing for Dorian West.

Manu is a hard working guy and probabley the best outside centre of his age in the world. One punch up with Ashton in the heat of a blazing derby match (we saw on Saturday far more experienced player buckle under the pressure and lose the plot). The jumping off of the ferry was some high jinks started with a joke that snow balled, yeah it was stupid but it was crucially after the playing bit was done and he is only 20 and I know I did stupider things at that age.

Delon well he is getting a reputation for being an idiot. Pushing the guy doing the drugs test was beyond stupid and the cheap shot on Myler was worse in my eyes that what Manu did. The ban for the tackle on Paterson was a farce but by then he had a reputation which made it easy for the citing panel to ban him. He clearly has a temper and is probabley no longer needed by England.

Formerly known as Sam,

So you'd say they cause trouble but its more light hearted hijinks than serious trouble?

The cynic in me thinks that maybe Ashton came in with an agenda to wind up A.Tuilagi. After all it was A.Tuilagi's bro who was involved in all the controversy in the last midland's derby at WR.

With big HC games to come bans wouldn't be ideal for either side but are likely.

beshocked wrote:I didn't see the game but heard about the incident.From what I heard the linesman recommended the Leicester winger should be sent off. He was I believe referring to Agulla who allegedly threw some punches? Alesana Tuilagi got sent off instead.

From what I heard the following players should be in hot water:

Wood,Ashton from Saints
Agulla and Murphy from Tigers

Possibly Lawes and A.Tuilagi too.

Metal Tiger did Lawes connect with a punch?

Beshocked I did watch the game and in terms of identifying the players who should be in trouble you are spot on. I do also think the linesman was a fault for not making clear which Leicester winger he was referring to Agulla totally lost all self control

All 6 should receive some sort of ban and Ashton and Agulla should get the longest bans.

Alesana was sent off purely because of what Manu did to Ashton in last years fixture. I think the reverse angle shows that Alesana did try to get a punch in to Ashton's midrift, but that it didn't connect particularly heavily - punishment - yellow card.

As for the others, well two or three that were involved but were not punished could easily have been sent off and words do not begin to describe the revulsion I feel towards Ashton for pulling Tuilagi across the ground by his hair. A cowardly and vicious act that should be heavily punished. Given that Tuilagi was sent off anyway, if I'd have been him, I'd have floored Ashton and made it worthwhile.

Ashton needs a bloody good kicking to bring him down a peg or two.

Saw that match and and was disgusted with what Aston did.


It seems that he really is just a thug and cheap shot merchant, a cheeky shoulder charge here and there as well each match. Really starting to dislike him as a player as I think he is a thug

He should get a dig ban for it, but not sure what the ruling is on hair pulling.

Lots of people ran in and threw punches, and I think both sides are looking at losing a few players, which I think is correct. Manu was also very lucky, as he ran in but was sent back by his physio. If he had gone in I think he would have missed the rest of the season (as was not in the match day squad)

Really bad advert for Rugby

Saturday 14th April
Franklins Gardens, Northampton

Northampton vs Leicester


Mouthwatering. Will the first tuilagi tackle on Ashton measure on the richter scale?

To make it clear neither the refs nor the linesmen saw the hair pulling, youd hope he would get cited for it. Tigers wont report it themsleves, but given the mayhem and media coverage it sparked its hard to beleive the whole incident wont be reviewed.
Tuillagis problem will be that he doesnt exactly have a great disciplinary record. In the contest of what went one what he did was pretty minor, but a citeing following a red card is automatiuc. He will get a ban, it may seem unfairly long but thats the way it goes. You could argue his briother got off fairly lightly last time around ( its just as well he got held back this time or could be facing a long ban himself).

The officials were a bit lost when it kicked off, the footage of the assistant limply holding up his flag is hilarious, but they are instructed to not wade in and physicaly sperate the players as this can inflame the situation.
I thought Barnes dealt with it very professionaly afetr that, he could only go with what he sand his assistants saw. Getting the two teams apart and being strict with them worked. In the end we still had a great game fand the rest was played in relativley good spirit. Its a credit to both sides that once this incident had passed they put it behind them and got on with the game without excess niggle.


With regard to the winger thing I though the assitant said "number 11" , that was Tuillagi. I dont think he meant Agulla, form where he was standing it may well have looked liek Tuilagi was throwing punches ( he certainly was trying to)

It was actually a great game and Saints were magnificant in their come back but boy did I cheer Leicester winning try just to ram it down that tool Ashton's throat.

So you'd say they cause trouble but its more light hearted hijinks than serious trouble?

Which one? I villify Armitage and say that Manu and Ashton need to be carefully guided. They are three very different situations.

Really bad advert for Rugby.

Only because the media will focus on a minute of madness rather than the rest of the game which was an end to end seven try thriller full of intelligent running rugby where both sides showed some great footballing skills as well as great physicality.

With regard to the winger thing I though the assitant said "number 11" , that was Tuillagi

From memory Barnes says "Tigers 11", the assistant says "Green winger". We assume the linesman means Agulla but we can't be sure.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Which one? I villify Armitage and say that Manu and Ashton need to be carefully guided. They are three very different situations.

Wasn't sure

Yea thats a fair synopsis IMO.

geoff I didn't watch the match as said before but the two red cards must have helped with the amount of space available - 14vs14.

It's a shame that this incident happened as it means bad blood between the two teams. Of course last season's playoff semi would have been fresh in the mind.

It's a shame that this incident happened as it means bad blood between the two teams

The midlands derby has never been likened to a girl scout meeting Beshocked. It was always going to be a game played the way it was. Just a real shame that it will be remembered for that one brawl and not the brilliant rugby shown before and after the incident, as it had started at a break neck pace as well.

What is the offence for dragging a player by his hair, and how does it rate on the scale of high or tip/spear tackles, gouging, punching or stamping?

It is actually not specifically mentioned as an offense. However the IRB allow for a ban for "Any other acts (not previously referred to) which are contrary to good sportsmanship". This ban is can be between 4 and 52 weeks.

red_stag wrote:Thats disgraceful Tiger. I hope a lenghty ban is en route.

How do English posters feel about the three guys I've mentioned. Personally I think you need a absolute bollixer of a coach who can put these type of people in their place.

Currently IMO the trio are poisonous.

Manu is a kid, let's not forget that... so some stern guidance from Cockerill will no doubt have been applied already and I think he is in the right environment at Tigers to cool his heels and get back on track.

Ashton, while a very talented winger and one of Englands top try scorers does stupid things from time to time and needs to sort his head out as he is arrogant. But there is a culture of 'needle' at Saints anyway... most top sides are confrontational but again Jim Mallinder is a good coach so hopefully will get him under control.

Armatige is a clumsy oaf who doesn't think before he acts. I don't think most of his stuff has been malicious, just plain stupid.

Armatige is a clumsy oaf who doesn't think before he acts. None of his stuff has been malicious, just plain stupid

On the whole I agree but the punch on Myler at the end of last season was plain thuggery. Desperate tackle as Myler goes over to score, Armitage is on top and twists his body round to put a big right hook into Myler's temple. Myler stayed down for a while after that and Armitage walked away like nothing had happened. Unsuprising he got banned.

Riskysports wrote:Really bad advert for Rugby

Whilst the brawl left a bad taste in the mouth... it should not overshadow the rest of the game which was magnificent running, heart in the mouth, rugby. The commentators on Sky and on the ITV highlights show all said it was "the game of the season" which I think is high praise indeed.

Couldn't help but cheer my head off when Agulla took the p1ss out of Ashton with his swan dive mimicry.

Metal Tiger wrote: Manu is a kid, let's not forget that... so some stern guidance from Cockerill will no doubt have been applied already and I think he is in the right environment at Tigers to cool his heels and get back on track.

.

Cool head and Cockerill is not a association that readily comes to mind

geoff998rugby wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote: Manu is a kid, let's not forget that... so some stern guidance from Cockerill will no doubt have been applied already and I think he is in the right environment at Tigers to cool his heels and get back on track.

.

Cool head and Cockerill is not a association that readily comes to mind

Maybe we hire Dr Venteer to defend him in the disciplinary

I am sick to death with Northampton, I am totally fed up with all their nonsence and off the ball antics. The same names keep doing the rounds all the time. What do they coach them !!!! Northampton need to be made an example of on mass. The whole team should get fined and or docked points to stop their thuggery. What I saw during the HC match against the Scarlets was totally out of order. This behaviour is a cancer to the good sport of rugy union and I am sure that their behaviour and reputations spread to other player's. People can defend them all they want but facts are facts and it is always Northampton who are covered in controversy, although you do hear of things happening with other teams, Northampton are ALWAYS surrounded by it, all the time. Something needs to be done now as they are bringing the game into disrepute and dragging the good name of the sport we all love and enjoy down.

Cool head and Cockerill is not a association that readily comes to mind

He gives good advice and will be an understanding authority figure to guide him. Cockerill will certainly have plenty of experience to call on when talking to Manu.

This behaviour is a cancer to the good sport of rugy union and I am sure that their behaviour and reputations spread to other player's

As a Tigers fan I'd only complain about the hair pulling (the shoulder charge on Murphy was repaid with the block on Foden ) other than that it was a great game. Me thinks you are still carrying a grudge from a game Saints and the ref conspired to gift the Scarlets.

Its a bit OTT Dowlais.

Part of the problem is they are often in high profile matches and have several of the biggst names in British rugby in their side, even minor incidents with these guys get picked up and exagerrated by the media and internets at times. Theres nothing there that guys like Grewcock didnt do week in week out ofr his entire career, but once he wanst playing for England people stoped caring so much.
Lawes certainly does have a problem with his discipline though, enforcer or not. Hartley certainly used to although hes been better behaved in recent times .
I dont think its fair to tag a whole club with it though as violent thugs, Tigers used to have this repuation themsleves, largely undeserved.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote: Manu is a kid, let's not forget that... so some stern guidance from Cockerill will no doubt have been applied already and I think he is in the right environment at Tigers to cool his heels and get back on track.

.

Cool head and Cockerill is not a association that readily comes to mind

Never said anything about Cockers having a cool head

Its a passionate high energy game between two fired up local rivals...it just needed one flash point to kick it off...and Ashton obliged.

He should be punished as i dont believe in hair pulling etc...but as for the fight....its a tough game punch ups happen.....get on with it....or are we turning it in to tiddly winks!

I'm sure everyone will disagree with me here, but isn't it a bit airy fairy to just ban every player who throws a punch? Yellows should be the punishment I reckon, unless it is an unprovoked and malicious cowardly act (Armitage on Myler). Ashton pulling Tuilagi's hair falls under this also, that is just pathetic and he knows exactly what he was doing. Tuilagi getting a red card for reacting is abysmal. I think a yellow should have sufficed for Agulla and Wood, but a red seems OTT in my view. The player who deserves a citing is Ashton.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I'm sure everyone will disagree with me here, but isn't it a bit airy fairy to just ban every player who throws a punch? Yellows should be the punishment I reckon, unless it is an unprovoked and malicious cowardly act (Armitage on Myler). Ashton pulling Tuilagi's hair falls under this also, that is just pathetic and he knows exactly what he was doing. Tuilagi getting a red card for reacting is abysmal. I think a yellow should have sufficed for Agulla and Wood, but a red seems OTT in my view. The player who deserves a citing is Ashton.

I am not sure I agree

This is rugby not boxing, and rugby has enough good hits and physical aspects. It sets a terrible example to say, it is ok to punch some on repeatedly, just because it is on the sport field

rory gallagher are you joking? Punching is not ok.

Were there any other incidents after Barnes sent Wood and Tuilagi off?

If not then the red cards did their work.

What sort of example are you setting if you don't heavily punish punching?

I would rather they get on with the rugby, but that is sort of the point, all the drama at the end of a brawl takes away from the game. It is an intense physical game, and people will play fisticuffs from time to time. They should be stopped, then allowed to get on with it. If the players refuse to get on with it though after one occasion a yellow should be issued, and if it still persists then a red. As I said if it is an unprovoked cowardly act, a red should be shown straight away.

Nonsense, you punch someone in the face, kidneys, ribs or balls its a red card IMO. If its a punch to say the shoulder or legs or something maybe yellow.

It sounds like yellow may have been acceptable for Tuilagi in this case.

beshocked wrote:rory gallagher are you joking? Punching is not ok.

Were there any other incidents after Barnes sent Wood and Tuilagi off?

If not then the red cards did their work.

What sort of example are you setting if you don't heavily punish punching?

Not joking no.. I think these things happen from time to time, even in the Leinster/Cardiff match Tito and Healy exchanged blows but they both got up and got on with it after a while. That is what should happen. I didn't see the game, only the highlights so I couldn't answer that. If you are red carded you are in front of the citing panel anyway, so it won't end with just the reds.

red_stag wrote:Nonsense, you punch someone in the face, kidneys, ribs or balls its a red card IMO. If its a punch to say the shoulder or legs or something maybe yellow.

It sounds like yellow may have been acceptable for Tuilagi in this case.

Why acceptable for Tuilagi though? Because he was provoked? What about the rest of them seeing their teammate getting punched around? See what I mean? It happens and progresses. It should be stopped then they should get on with it. If it continues, yellows then reds. Me saying this of course I am not a referee and that may make it harder to control, but this is what I would prefer to see.

If it comes down to punishing everyone who thrown a punch there will be about 6 or 7 citings there. A bit much if you ask me.

rory gallagher I think giving out red cards is the best way to calm sides down. It tells the players the ref is the boss and won't take any rubbish from the players.

From all accounts this wasn't handbags at dawn, this was full blown fisticuffs.

Agree with red stag.

If you punch someone you deserve a ban.

Would you ban all 6/7 players involved then?

And what about Ashton, who didn't throw one punch yet he caused it all with a cowardly act?

Yes I would. Ashton provoked it all so yes he should be banned too.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Why acceptable for Tuilagi though? Because he was provoked?

No as many people said the footage seems unclear and Agulla was doing the punching and there was a linesman mix up.

I thought that Barnes handled the aftermath really well. While the "wrong" players may have been sent off - one from each side was not harsh.

I wonder however if the officials could have prevented it happening. I have no idea if and why the AR missed Ashton dragging Alex on the ground by his dreads. If he sticks his flag straight out and Barnes then blows up would it have kicked off?

Also (perhaps to Red-Stag mainly) when I refereed inbetween playing retirements you had to blow up immediately if you saw serious foul play worthy of a caution (official warning or sending off - as cards did not exist). This was in part to try and pre-empt retaliation. Now they play advantage - any reason why and when this changed.