Chris Ashton starts brawl at Welford Road

First topic message reminder :

A seperate thread away from the main Tigers V Saints game post to discuss in more detail the incident provoked by Chris Aston.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0dcme2wCGBs#!

For those who haven't seen/heard the incident yet... Alessano Tuilagi makes a break down the wing (crumbie side) and hands off Chris Ashton. Chris Ashton grabs hold of Tuiagis hair as he goes bay and swings him to the ground, then taking a firm grip on his dreadlocks, drags him across the pitch into touch.

Tuilagi is less than happy. As he stands up he gives Ashton a dig in the ribs.

I think it was Matt Smith (?) runs in to try and split them up.

Courtney Lawes runs in and starts swinging.

Players from both team pile in to join or sperate (depending on your point of view I suppose).

Geordan Murphy jumps in and launches a couple back at Courtney.

Tom Wood runs across the park and delivers a flurry of punches into the melee.

The ball boy who is stood watching a little too close gets swallowed up the brawl and lucky not to be injured.

Officials finally restore order.

Barnes in a shocking & disgraceful decision red cards Tuilagi (the victim of Ashtons foul & dangerous play) and then red cards Tom Wood (fair enough decision I thought).

Ashton walks away unpunished and (alledgedly from some of the supporters in the Crumbie, although I didn't see this) grinning & winking at the crowd.

This should go before the citing panel this week and lengthy bans for Ashton, Lawes & Wood. Most likely Murphy too. But will Alessano also pick up a ban for reacting to Ashtons attack in the way he did? Unfair to be sure, but likely.

greybeard well done for re posting the footage.

On watching the footage what Ashton did was pretty bad. No wonder A. Tuilagi reacted to it.

A.Tuilagi might get away with a ban because it looks like he's hugging Ashton. There is no obvious fists flying.

As greybeard said it looks like Geordan Murphy will be in a lot of trouble. That ballboy was lucky. Isn't he Leicester captain as well?

Agulla looks like he got stuck in too. From that angle you can't see too much from Wood and Lawes.

The return leg should be good fun! Look what happened to the last player who crossed the Tuilagi family!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zflocS43Ml4

What a staggeringly one eye'd witch hunt of a topic.

Chris Ashton without question pulled tuilangi by the hair and did this whilst on the floor. Definitely out of line and I wouldn't be shocked at a citing for this. He pulled the hair and then released it to grab the shirt of the player. Still not ok but it's what happened.

I am not shocked at all tuilangi reacted like this. Who wouldn't?

Tuilangi clearly throws punches at Ashton. They hit him in the body. This is why he got a red card.

Tom wood ran in. He definitely threw one punch. This is why he got sent off. I don't know why he threw this punch, commentators said he was hit first but I couldn't see this. Wood has always been a squeaky clean player and I was surprised to see him throw the punch. It cannot be denied he did this, the question next is why did he.

Lawes definitely threw one punch, from recollection he then tried to split players up. He may get cited. He seemed to throw a punch.

Murphy in my opinion acted like a tool all through the match with his over the top reaction after being body checked by Ashton, to his blatant lack of sportsmanship to take out foden at the end. Murphy was possibly the worst offender in this incident throwing several punches and going out of his way to do this. Possible citing, will have a difficult job explaining away his actions.

The other tigers winger threw several punches seemingly in retaliation of the hair pulling incident. Possible citing.

This incident in my opinion was caused directly by the lack of refereeing at last seasons match where tuilangi jnr delivered the worst but of foul play I have ever seen.

On a slightly unrelated note I know all teams cheat, even the ones we support but the quality of the refereeing is sorely letting the fans and players down. I feel the TMO should have greater powers and be called upon in more situations such as brawls to identify causes I.e. hair pulling and also staggering cheating I.e. tackling the full back whilst he makes cover tackles. I cannot see a reason why a player can't say to the ref, hang on sir I would have tackled that player back there if his team mate hadn't wiped me out off the ball!

We have to remember that children watch these games and learn from their hero's and so. Cannot let blatant cheating happen. We cannot let punching happen and. Cannot let hair pulling happen.

"This incident in my opinion was caused directly by the lack of refereeing at last seasons match where tuilangi jnr delivered the worst but of foul play I have ever seen."

Clearly didn't see what happened to O'Driscoll for the Lions... And what Manu did is worse than gouging?

geoff998rugby wrote:

Glas a du wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Ashton should be banned for life or at least the rest of the season. To tackle by the hair is bad enough, but to drag by the hair once the "tackled" player is on the floor and defenceless is indefensible.

O please !! - I have been very critical of Ashton on here but banned for life - sorry thats plan silly
In answer to the above I also do not think Ashton stopped after he was in touch - thats the problem.

Two things, first, Paul Ringer got a ban for much less.
Second, dragging a player by his hair is OK as long as he's on the field of play. Is that what you are advocating?
Girls scram, bite, kick and pull hair in a fight as in evolutionary terms females have had to fight dirty to even the playing field. There is no room for hair pulling, gouging, ball grabbing, biting or kicking on the rugby field. I was exaggerating, but the authorities will be a laughing stock unless Ashton gets a lengthy ban.

I have said that Ashton should have got a Red and should be banned so how you can interpret that as saying I believe hair pulling is ok is beyond me.
It is the life bit as nonsense - which you now admit was an exaggeration.

Ah OK, I read it again and obviously didn't pay enough attention to your 'also'

Without the exaggeration, my point is he needs the book thrown at him, we don't need this sort of thing in the game, an example needs to be made of him.

The BOD example is interesting. The incidents start similarly enough in a tackle by the hair. However, it's what Ashton does after Tuilagi hits the floor which marks this incident out as requiring stringent disciplinary action. All the other players transgressions flow from Ashtons of course. As the clear initial perpetrator, without provocation on the Leicester players part, he must surely get tge longest ban.

Being a Saints fan I will try and be as objective (and honest) as possible. I will also give the linesman the benefit of doubt that he didn’t see the method of how Ashton pulled Tuilagi into touch.

Ashton – Pure stupidity by a player who needs to grow up. Comes across as a semi-decent bloke in interviews but then does stupid things like this and the NZ hotel incident (I wonder if him and Haskel could manage a single brain cell between them). Maybe a significant (deserved) ban will focus his mind a little in the future.

Tuilagi – Ridiculously unlucky to be sent off. Understandably upset (although perhaps he may consider shaving his hair in future ) but I felt he could have reacted much worse considering. Maybe did throw a punch Ashton’s way but the unjust red card he received is more than adequate punishment for that. As others have said he was sent off only because of the Manu Ashton incident last season. If there is justice he deserves to be available for the HC games next week.

Lawes – Thought he was actually doing a better job of letting his play do the talking as opposed to the over the top hard man stuff over the past few weeks but will now miss some very important games. Needs to understand that he has a reputation and act accordingly. Smart players can stand up for their teammates without throwing punches.

Agulla – Although I’m not his greatest fan he was (understandably) standing up for a teammate. However, went well over the top (even if his aim was poor!) and another who will deservedly receive a ban. Lucky on the day not to see red.

Wood – Another a bit like Lawes who went over the top in his defense of a teammate, also running from a long way out to join the festivities. Maybe a little unlucky to be noticed and see red at the time but again another who deserves a ban.

Murphy – Was very surprised by his reaction and should have known better. Should have set a better example as Captain and maybe lucky to stay on the pitch (not really much different from Wood). Surprising that in this instance Hartley was the more controlled captain, although I can understand why Murphy was so incensed. Yet another player who will probably receive a deserved ban. Due to the ball boy becoming trapped by his actions can actually see him getting the longest ban of all.

greybeard wrote:
To be honest I read the description in the article before watching and I was expecting something much worse. It's still bad, but I had images of Ashton dragging a player on the ground for a few metres like a caveman. Maybe because I was expecting the worst and am a bit relieved by what I saw.

I had images of players running the width of the pitch to get the punches in, but Lawes and Murphy, at least, were right there when it kicked off. Still shouldn't be throwing punches though.

I'm no fan of Ashton, but I've seen players do a lot worse. Not that that's an excuse, but I think the proximity of other players caused the fight, rather than any real umbrage about his actions. It was almost easier to start fighting than not, if you get my meaning.

No sorry, it's not our fault you have an over active imagination. I watched it before I read the summary and Ashtons actions are not to be brushed aside. Dragging a player on the floor by his hair, whether for a meter or three meters, it's just not acceptable.

maverickmak wrote:"This incident in my opinion was caused directly by the lack of refereeing at last seasons match where tuilangi jnr delivered the worst but of foul play I have ever seen."

Clearly didn't see what happened to O'Driscoll for the Lions... And what Manu did is worse than gouging?

Ok, I accept that the two incidents you mention we're awful and extremely serious however that was the sort of response that annoys me about forums - ignoring the point of the article to make a picky comment.

Yes I think manu's punch last season was as bad as it comes. That level of punch can shatter bones and even kill. It was that bad. So I do see it as serious as the o'driscol incident and gouging.

If any of the above incidents occured in the street the perpetrators would most likely have spent time in prison. I don't think that all punches and acts of foul play should warrant police intervention, but in some cases I truely do.

The real problem is at where do you draw the line.

Now what I would say again to the hair pulling is I understand why tuilangi reacted the way he did. I probably would have too I guess, but one point I would invite people to debate, is if there was more reliable and consistent refereeing and punishments for acts if foul play, would the players have enough faith in the disciplinary process to not feel the need to react- do we think players do have faith in those systems and do fans?

Certain players get away with things more than others. If Ashton gets away with hair pulling or pushing a player in the back then he will continue doing it

Glas a du wrote:

greybeard wrote:
To be honest I read the description in the article before watching and I was expecting something much worse. It's still bad, but I had images of Ashton dragging a player on the ground for a few metres like a caveman. Maybe because I was expecting the worst and am a bit relieved by what I saw.

I had images of players running the width of the pitch to get the punches in, but Lawes and Murphy, at least, were right there when it kicked off. Still shouldn't be throwing punches though.

I'm no fan of Ashton, but I've seen players do a lot worse. Not that that's an excuse, but I think the proximity of other players caused the fight, rather than any real umbrage about his actions. It was almost easier to start fighting than not, if you get my meaning.

No sorry, it's not our fault you have an over active imagination. I watched it before I read the summary and Ashtons actions are not to be brushed aside. Dragging a player on the floor by his hair, whether for a meter or three meters, it's just not acceptable.

I'm not saying it is acceptable, just that it wasn't as bad as I first feared. At no point in my post did I condone any foul play, or brush them aside, so please don't act like I did.

Ashton did not drag a player along the ground, both were on their feet.

Look at it again. Tuilagi is on all fours and is dragged along the ground.

Just heard on SSN that Ashton has been cited. No news either way on any other player though.

Glas a du wrote:Look at it again. Tuilagi is on all fours and is dragged along the ground.

Just looked, Tuilagi is on his knees, Ashton grabs the hair, between Ashton's pulling and Tuilagis momentum bringing him upright Tuilagi is, at worst, pulled up by his hair. Not dragged along the ground.

Now I'm not saying this is ok, I'm not saying it's nothing, but a little bit of precision in describing what actually happened isn't a bad thing.

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12544/7354905/Saint-Ashton-cited

The complaint is that Ashton pulled Leicester wing Alesana Tuilagi by his hair and dragged him from the field of play during his side's Aviva Premiership defeat against the Tigers at Welford Road on Saturday.

The incident sparked a brawl between the two sets of players that resulted in Tuilagi and Northampton's Tom Wood being shown red cards.

hmmmmm, so only Ashton is cited (other than woods and tuilagi for the reds), Wouldn't be surprised if woods and tuilagi get away with no ban as they haven't cited the other players for striking an opponent.

I think they may pin post of the blame on Ashton for the brawl, so i'll guessing about 2 weeks.

Well, don't think there is much denying there

Amazed Murphy got away with his actions

greybeard wrote:Amazed Murphy got away with his actions

I'm pretty surprised by this too, perhaps his making peace after a few punches helped! lol

but there were a few that could of have been easily cited.

If everybody that was involved was cited then it becomes never ending.
Two players got shown red card but the player who started it all off was not punished at the time and this is why he got cited.

Cymroglan wrote:If everybody that was involved was cited then it becomes never ending.
Two players got shown red card but the player who started it all off was not punished at the time and this is why he got cited.

yeah i can understand that. It will be interesting to see what sort of ban he will get. It can be anywhere from 2 to 52 weeks.

Baggy42 wrote:Lawes definitely threw one punch, from recollection he then tried to split players up. He may get cited. He seemed to throw a punch.

Bit of a contradiction there. Watch the video again (link on last post of page 2), he doesn't throw a punch, but he does charge into the back of Tuilagi.

Chris Ashton. No class.

Riskysports wrote:
Really bad advert for Rugby

Surely that was Dragons v Glasgow yesterday?

Ashton cited

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16042053.stm

The Telegraph story makes interesting reading:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/8936509/Chris-Ashton-faces-two-week-ban-after-being-cited-by-RFU-for-tackle-on-Alesana-Tuilagi.html

In short in it they reckon 2 weeks for Ashton and no further punishment for Tuilagi/Wood.

If this happens, and with no citings for anyone else (especially Agulla & Murphy) then both sides would probably be thankfull.

No axe to grind here, but I do think that failure to cite Agulla or Murphy makes a mockery of the AP judicial system

If you have read my posts then you will probably guess that I agree, A100

Aye LT

No. Rarely is the start of such a brawl so clearly attributable to 1 player. Also I think these are close rivals, there would have been a quick chat behind the scenes to ensure the East Midlands' whole season was not totally wrecked. You dnt cite Lawes and we won't cite your Captain and the useless Argentinian.

It's why POC got away with his thuggery in 2005. The GS was won, leave it there.

I think for consistency the citing commissioner must put the same ban on all players who joined in and threw punches,

Then IF Tuilagi threw a punch and it landed he should get a max two week ban
because it was a reaction,
Ashton should get the book thrown at him for dragging a player around by the hair and starting the whole thing,
For me hair pulling is on par with small joint manipulation,if a player bent back another players fingers and did some damage i would expect a lengthy ban because of the intent

Too much conspiracy theory, Glas

It is not down to the teams to cite - Mike Rafter the former England and Bristol flanker was the citing officer.

However I guess that he decided that once everyone arrived it was handbags etc etc.

Personally I would have felt more comfortable with Agulla/Murphy cited and cleared if necessary - but then the citing officer is more expert than me i guess.

Do you think Asbo? They could easily have cited four or five players each. They either realise that is pointless as the disciplinary bods would look for the rot in the cheese or there was a tacit understanding. If I was coaching either side, I hope the admin guys would at least talk to each other!

Glas a du wrote:No. Rarely is the start of such a brawl so clearly attributable to 1 player. Also I think these are close rivals, there would have been a quick chat behind the scenes to ensure the East Midlands' whole season was not totally wrecked. You dnt cite Lawes and we won't cite your Captain and the useless Argentinian.

It's why POC got away with his thuggery in 2005. The GS was won, leave it there.

Tigers have always been against reporting players to the citing commission as a club,. Its an ethics thing, they didnt want the right to do it supporting instead the independant commissioners to be responsible. Its nothing to do with any stupid conspiracy theory, its always been their policy.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:No axe to grind here, but I do think that failure to cite Agulla or Murphy makes a mockery of the AP judicial system

Agree especially Murphy IMO

red_stag wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:No axe to grind here, but I do think that failure to cite Agulla or Murphy makes a mockery of the AP judicial system

Agree especially Murphy IMO

+1. It's almost as though Murphy has been let off to try and balance up the fact that Tuilagi was hard done by. As unfair as AT's red card was, it shouldn't work like that.

Baggy42 wrote:What a staggeringly one eye'd witch hunt of a topic.

I am not particularly one eyed & think I am a reasonable poster and not into witch hunts.

Most posters on this thread have discussed all the offenders, both Tigers & Saints, openly.

B91212 wrote:

red_stag wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:No axe to grind here, but I do think that failure to cite Agulla or Murphy makes a mockery of the AP judicial system

Agree especially Murphy IMO

+1. It's almost as though Murphy has been let off to try and balance up the fact that Tuilagi was hard done by. As unfair as AT's red card was, it shouldn't work like that.

I am surprised that Murphy & Agulla have not been cited, they threw a lot more punches than Wood.

I guess you can go two ways on this.

1) Cite everyone involved and clear/punish accordingly. Although that is a long process and a lot of players. Maybe it is extreme or maybe the right way... I'm not so sure.

2) Cite the person who started it. Accept the reds as punishment enough. Accept that everything else that followed was handbags resulting from the initial incident and move on.

The rest will come out in the wash, as the old saying goes.

Looking back at the incident, a 'brawl' is giving it too much credit.

How so many players looked like they were throwing haymakers and on closer inspection were actually connecting with so little is amazing. I think the WWF could sign up both teams for a battle royale.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:No axe to grind here, but I do think that failure to cite Agulla or Murphy makes a mockery of the AP judicial system

Agree

Doesn't surprise me to be honest. All we ask for is consistency.

You can get 3 weeks for an accidental dangerous tackle but no citing for throwing punches.

Be interesting to see if Dowson gets a ban. If he does he'll be wondering how Lawes and Wood got off scot free.

My two cents is that Saints in general should be stamped on by the RFU. This is not the first game where Saints have been causing trouble. I was disgusted by their behaviour at the Scarlets match, they were little better against the young ospreys or last year vs the blues.

Unfortunately I doubt much will happen as the RFU have an appaulling record at dealing with these occurrences with the seriousness that other national governing bodies do.

I would be surprised if anyone was banned for more than a week if at all.

Where has the slap head smiley gone? Why do Welsh fan continue to churn out this rubbish about Saints causing trouble?

I do think Saints get unfair criticism. They aren't Saints as their name would suggest but they aren't that bad.

The RFU hasn't banned the players simply because they don't want to harm Saints and Leicester's chances in the HC. I don't necessarily agree with their decision but I now understand why.

It's a bit like why Manu Tuilagi got his sentence heavily reduced and Mark Cueto also got his ban heavily reduced - both were needed for the rugby world cup.

red_stag wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
No axe to grind here, but I do think that failure to cite Agulla or Murphy makes a mockery of the AP judicial system

Agree especially Murphy IMO
+1. It's almost as though Murphy has been let off to try and balance up the fact that Tuilagi was hard done by. As unfair as AT's red card was, it shouldn't work like that..

I'd say Murphy was not as lucky as Agulla. Agulla throws the first punch and is the first one to join in (closely followed by Lawes), his and Lawes reaction is what causes the whole thing to escalate massively. Murphy jumps in and tries to pull someone off but when Wood joins and throws his upper cut then Murphy loses all self control and almost wind mills. The citing comission seem to be taking the view that citing 3 players per team would cause too much hassle and so are dragging the two red carded players before them (who may well take team bans) as well as the guy who started it.

It's a bit like why Manu Tuilagi got his sentence heavily reduced and Mark Cueto also got his ban heavily reduced - both were needed for the rugby world cup

The Cueto one looked bad from one still image in normal time he barely touched the guy and in fact the player didn't even notice (according to his interview). It is common practice for players to have their bans halved due to previous good behaviour and remorse. That had nothing to do with the RWC despite your conspiracy theories.

Why do Welsh fan continue to churn out this rubbish about Saints causing trouble?

Not a clue. Considering the Saints (with the help of the ref) went out of their way to gift the Scarlets a tbp victory you'd have thought they'd be more supportive.

Are we sure that no one else has been cited?

Ashtons could just be the first one to be announced?

Or do they have to announce everyone at the same time?

Anyone out there an RFU disciplinary officer who can answer this?

Well they are having a hearing today in order to sort it out so one would assume they'd have dragged everybody in at the same time rather than have another hearing next week. Dowson is also answering his citing for a dangerous tackle from the Sarries game today.

beshocked wrote:Where has the slap head smiley gone? Why do Welsh fan continue to churn out this rubbish about Saints causing trouble?

I do think Saints get unfair criticism. They aren't Saints as their name would suggest but they aren't that bad.

The RFU hasn't banned the players simply because they don't want to harm Saints and Leicester's chances in the HC. I don't necessarily agree with their decision but I now understand why.

It's a bit like why Manu Tuilagi got his sentence heavily reduced and Mark Cueto also got his ban heavily reduced - both were needed for the rugby world cup.

It isn't Welsh fans, it is nothing to do with nationality, it is all fans, read this post and numerous others stating how dirty the Saints play is and has been for over a season. Always the same players being mentioned too, invariably Ashton, Lawes and Hartley.

Very surprised to see Tom Wood mentioned in the same vein.

Of course it has to do with nationality. You and LordDowlais are Welsh. You mention the Scarlets team (a Welsh side).

Sam absolute gem about how Welsh fans should be more supportive of Saints.

It wouldn't surprise me if the RFU was being dodgy to suit their own interests. They are corrupt and incompetent anyway.

It is in the RFU's interests if Leicester and Saints players don't get lengthy bans. They want the English sides to perform well in the HC.

If you substituted Quins and Sarries for Leicester and Saints it would be the same result.

I can't for one cannot understand why Murphy and Agulla piled in. They should have been cited - and maybe they will.

Wood and Tuilagi should be exonerated imo.

The whole incident detracted from what was a great match (once Mallinder shored up the pack after Wood was dismissed).

Portnoy wrote:I can't for one cannot understand why Murphy and Agulla piled in. They should have been cited - and maybe they will.

Wood and Tuilagi should be exonerated imo.

The whole incident detracted from what was a great match (once Mallinder shored up the pack after Wood was dismissed).

Agree with all the above except I think Murphy and Agulla wont be cited at all though they should.

Personally I think bans for Ashton, Murphy and Agulla and no further punishment to Wood or Tuilagi is the best way forward.

With regards to Saints, I'm not a fan of Ashton to say the least. I quite like Dylan Hartley for reasons I can't fully explain

It is in the RFU's interests if Leicester and Saints players don't get lengthy bans. They want the English sides to perform well in the HC.

True but making sure that valuable England internationals like Lawes, Ashton and Wood get a nice three week break eerrrr... I mean ban a couple of months before the start of the 6N...

I can't for one cannot understand why Murphy and Agulla piled in

Well Agulla was the support player to Alesana and dived in to defend his team mate. Unfortunatley he went in swinging rather than trying to break them up. Geordie goes in to try and seperate and then is on the end of a punch and proceeds to start swinging and ends up in a scuffle with Wood. You'd hope two experienced internationals would be the cool heads in that situation though...