Chris Ashton starts brawl at Welford Road

First topic message reminder :

A seperate thread away from the main Tigers V Saints game post to discuss in more detail the incident provoked by Chris Aston.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0dcme2wCGBs#!

For those who haven't seen/heard the incident yet... Alessano Tuilagi makes a break down the wing (crumbie side) and hands off Chris Ashton. Chris Ashton grabs hold of Tuiagis hair as he goes bay and swings him to the ground, then taking a firm grip on his dreadlocks, drags him across the pitch into touch.

Tuilagi is less than happy. As he stands up he gives Ashton a dig in the ribs.

I think it was Matt Smith (?) runs in to try and split them up.

Courtney Lawes runs in and starts swinging.

Players from both team pile in to join or sperate (depending on your point of view I suppose).

Geordan Murphy jumps in and launches a couple back at Courtney.

Tom Wood runs across the park and delivers a flurry of punches into the melee.

The ball boy who is stood watching a little too close gets swallowed up the brawl and lucky not to be injured.

Officials finally restore order.

Barnes in a shocking & disgraceful decision red cards Tuilagi (the victim of Ashtons foul & dangerous play) and then red cards Tom Wood (fair enough decision I thought).

Ashton walks away unpunished and (alledgedly from some of the supporters in the Crumbie, although I didn't see this) grinning & winking at the crowd.

This should go before the citing panel this week and lengthy bans for Ashton, Lawes & Wood. Most likely Murphy too. But will Alessano also pick up a ban for reacting to Ashtons attack in the way he did? Unfair to be sure, but likely.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Would you ban all 6/7 players involved then?

And what about Ashton, who didn't throw one punch yet he caused it all with a cowardly act?

Yes, why wouldn't you.

Your point seems to be that this is commonplace and is too hard to sanction everyone. I haven't heard of many incidents to this level to be honest. Sounds to me as though we should be seeing at least 4/5 players banned.

LondonTiger wrote:Also (perhaps to Red-Stag mainly) when I refereed inbetween playing retirements you had to blow up immediately if you saw serious foul play worthy of a caution (official warning or sending off - as cards did not exist). This was in part to try and pre-empt retaliation. Now they play advantage - any reason why and when this changed.

I didn't know it had changed to be honest. You see foul play you deal with it. I learnt that to my downfall in a semi final last year.

Red camped on Blue try line. Blue #7 completely kills the ball. I played advantage and had planned to yellow card him. He got severly and aggressively stamped by Red #1.

I had to reverse the penalty (yellow carded both players) and Red went onto lose the match. Could have been different if I played no advantage.

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Why acceptable for Tuilagi though? Because he was provoked?

No as many people said the footage seems unclear and Agulla was doing the punching and there was a linesman mix up.

I think Tuilagi did throw a punch or two though.. the footage of the incident is on the rugbydump website now if you want to check it out for yourself?

Can't access at work but will check it out later Rory.

red_stag wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Also (perhaps to Red-Stag mainly) when I refereed inbetween playing retirements you had to blow up immediately if you saw serious foul play worthy of a caution (official warning or sending off - as cards did not exist). This was in part to try and pre-empt retaliation. Now they play advantage - any reason why and when this changed.

I didn't know it had changed to be honest. You see foul play you deal with it. I learnt that to my downfall in a semi final last year.

Red camped on Blue try line. Blue #7 completely kills the ball. I played advantage and had planned to yellow card him. He got severly and aggressively stamped by Red #1.

I had to reverse the penalty (yellow carded both players) and Red went onto lose the match. Could have been different if I played no advantage.

That is totally the player who stamped own fault though, and the red team as a whole should have realised that. They had the advantage, that player chose to take things into his own hands and stamp.

I know it is Rory. However in an ideal world I wouldnt have given him the choice.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Why acceptable for Tuilagi though? Because he was provoked?

No as many people said the footage seems unclear and Agulla was doing the punching and there was a linesman mix up.

I think Tuilagi did throw a punch or two though.. the footage of the incident is on the rugbydump website now if you want to check it out for yourself?

He did throw but did connect with anything except possibly a debated one to the stomach.

Compared to his brother last year it was much at all...Ashton seemed a bit more prepared for it this time!

Had the other players not aaded in I doubt there would have been cards for anyone.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Its a bit OTT Dowlais.

Part of the problem is they are often in high profile matches and have several of the biggst names in British rugby in their side, even minor incidents with these guys get picked up and exagerrated by the media and internets at times. Theres nothing there that guys like Grewcock didnt do week in week out ofr his entire career, but once he wanst playing for England people stoped caring so much.
Lawes certainly does have a problem with his discipline though, enforcer or not. Hartley certainly used to although hes been better behaved in recent times .
I dont think its fair to tag a whole club with it though as violent thugs, Tigers used to have this repuation themsleves, largely undeserved.

There you go Pete, I did not mention any names during my "rant", but the fact that you knew who I was talking about anyway points out the fact that these players are constant offenders. As with regard to Grewcock he was a single offender, at Northampton there is a gang of them who all bring the negative's to the game. As I asked earlier what are they told to do in training or the pre game talk to go about doing this during a game ? For me, I think most of their antics are pre meditated and they need to be taken aside and told that having stroppy tantrums and giving out cheap shots is not on. People on here think I am going over the top, but when is it o.k to behave like that on a pitch. What will it take to stop it, perhaps a serious injury to an opposition player. You have posters on here saying it was a heated derby, but Northampton are like this in every game, and if they are loosing then all the toy's come out of the pram. The Tigers used to have a reputation of being a hard side, but they never had stroppy tantrums and pulled hair or gave cheap shots and that is why they will always command the respect that Northampton and their childish players will never have.

Fair enough Lord

Id like to think saints arent thinking that way and that ashtons hair pull was born of desperation rather than intent but we dont reaaly know. No question they targetted Flood last year, but theyd hardly be the first side to look to rough up the kicker.
I do remember a certain welsh manager saying they were looking to provoke a certain hooker last year though.

In terms of hairpulling, is Bod's effort in 2003 (a lifetime ago as far as rugby penalisation goes) better or worse than Ashton's? Would a sanction precedent set so long ago still be relevant today?

Link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGE3ylYtYCs

Pete, I have no problem with players winding each other up or sledging each other or even targeting players with hard tackles and making them do more than their quota of tackles, it's the off the ball stuff and late challenges I do not like. Certain players from Northampton ply their trade with contraversy and they seem to be proud of it. This makes me think that the coaches are instilling this into them on the training pitch or before games. Look I know rugby union is no place for angels but out and out thuggery should not be tollorated in any aspect of the game and if the whole team are made an example of the more honest players will soon overcome the more petulant ones.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:In terms of hairpulling, is Bod's effort in 2003 (a lifetime ago as far as rugby penalisation goes) better or worse than Ashton's? Would a sanction precedent set so long ago still be relevant today?

Link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGE3ylYtYCs

Although what he did was wrong, I could not help but laugh at the baldy ref immitating a hair pull on himself.

That is poor by BOD. 1) He initially missed the tackle and 2) he resorted to pulling his hair. Not impressed!

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:In terms of hairpulling, is Bod's effort in 2003 (a lifetime ago as far as rugby penalisation goes) better or worse than Ashton's? Would a sanction precedent set so long ago still be relevant today?

Link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGE3ylYtYCs

Not comparable in any way. BOD reach out for a trackle got hold of some hair and didn't let go before the player was on the way down. Penalty given, correct decision, end of story.

Ashton dragged a player along the ground by his hair - far far worse

The RugbyDump footage is being blocked now too.

geoff998rugby wrote:Not comparable in any way. BOD reach out for a trackle got hold of some hair and didn't let go before the player was on the way down. Penalty given, correct decision, end of story.

Ashton dragged a player along the ground by his hair - far far worse

I don't understand that point of view at all. Bod's "tackle" seemed to me more dangerous in terms of potential injury, I can accept differing views in the degree of seriousness between the two, but I can see no justification whatsover in the two incidents not being considered comparable.

Punch should be red card. it would soon stop.

From that mellee?

Aston, lawes, wood, murphy to get bans IMO

One was reaching out and making a tackle. Getting hold of hair and letting go after the player lost balance..

The other was dragging a prone player lying on the ground by the hair even after he was in touch.

One was a stupid act when the game was still in full flow.
The other was the act of a coward which continued after the ball was dead.

I stick by my assessment

Bods and Ashtons - intent is the difference,

Yes but Geoff is in Ireland...so of course he will say Bod's was not as bad

TJ wrote:Punch should be red card. it would soon stop.

From that mellee?

Aston, lawes, wood, murphy to get bans IMO

Aguella probably threw more punches than anybody

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes but Geoff is in Ireland...so of course he will say Bod's was not as bad

True but my eyesight is still working perfectly thanks

With so many punches thrown I think Barnes got it right sending off one from each side. Not the necessarily the correct players, he could have sent off more or maybe gone for yellow if he was feeling really lenient, but think red sent the correct message out and stabilised the rest of the game in terms of potential nonsense without ruining the match.

Tuilagi and Wood obviously get automatic bans because of the system in place, but aside from that I think you can only really ban Ashton and people who connected with punches, which I think will unfortunately (given a Saints player sparked it off) have more effect on Tigers. I'd expect Agulla & Murphy to get bans (retalliation isn't seen as a just excuse for leniency), but don't think Lawes threw punches or elbows as someone suggested, looked to me like he brings his arm over the top to split them up, with him immediately wrapping himself around Tuilagi in a hold, splitting him off from Ashton.

I know it is Rory. However in an ideal world I wouldnt have given him the choice..

Hindsight is in 20/20. If you called the advantage for the player lying on the ball you did the correct thing. The player should have been paying attention.

hawalsh wrote:With so many punches thrown I think Barnes got it right sending off one from each side. Not the necessarily the correct players, he could have sent off more or maybe gone for yellow if he was feeling really lenient, but think red sent the correct message out and stabilised the rest of the game in terms of potential nonsense without ruining the match.

Tuilagi and Wood obviously get automatic bans because of the system in place, not true, automatic citing but not automatic ban but aside from that I think you can only really ban Ashton and people who connected with punches, which I think will unfortunately (given a Saints player sparked it off) have more effect on Tigers. I'd expect Agulla & Murphy to get bans (retalliation isn't seen as a just excuse for leniency), but don't think Lawes threw punches or elbows as someone suggested, looked to me like he brings his arm over the top to split them up, with him immediately wrapping himself around Tuilagi in a hold, splitting him off from Ashton.

Agree with the bit about Lawes. I also thought he was trying the grab players rather than punch anyone. We seem to be the minority though.

Also I didn't think Ashton deliberately grabbed hair in some sort of attack (or cowardly act). More like he missed the first tackle and just grabbed hold of whatever he could. He then used it to try and drag the player into touch. Bad? Yes. Banned? Yes. Agree with most of the stuff on here? No.

HammerofThunor wrote:

hawalsh wrote:With so many punches thrown I think Barnes got it right sending off one from each side. Not the necessarily the correct players, he could have sent off more or maybe gone for yellow if he was feeling really lenient, but think red sent the correct message out and stabilised the rest of the game in terms of potential nonsense without ruining the match.

Tuilagi and Wood obviously get automatic bans because of the system in place, not true, automatic citing but not automatic ban but aside from that I think you can only really ban Ashton and people who connected with punches, which I think will unfortunately (given a Saints player sparked it off) have more effect on Tigers. I'd expect Agulla & Murphy to get bans (retalliation isn't seen as a just excuse for leniency), but don't think Lawes threw punches or elbows as someone suggested, looked to me like he brings his arm over the top to split them up, with him immediately wrapping himself around Tuilagi in a hold, splitting him off from Ashton.

Agree with the bit about Lawes. I also thought he was trying the grab players rather than punch anyone. We seem to be the minority though.

Also I didn't think Ashton deliberately grabbed hair in some sort of attack (or cowardly act). More like he missed the first tackle and just grabbed hold of whatever he could. He then used it to try and drag the player into touch. Bad? Yes. Banned? Yes. Agree with most of the stuff on here? No.

Why let something like the facts get in the way of a good witch hunt though?

geoff998rugby wrote:One was reaching out and making a tackle. Getting hold of hair and letting go after the player lost balance..

The other was dragging a prone player lying on the ground by the hair even after he was in touch.

One was a stupid act when the game was still in full flow.
The other was the act of a coward which continued after the ball was dead.

I stick by my assessment

Blimey, I never fail to be amazed at the differing interpretations and emotions that can be applied to the same incident. Do you not think that Ashton's hair grabbing was while the game was still in full flow and he released after Tuilagi was in touch?

After what happened with Manu last year, was it really a good idea for ashton to try and rebraid the hair of his bigger brother?

silly.

well, accidental or not he dragged a man bigger than him down by his hair.

hair pulling is for girls frankly

Pity the clip is blocked but it must have been some pretty hairy stuff for Geordan Murphy to come in swinging his fists. Would be nice if he showed some of that spirit when wearing an Ireland shirt!

As for Ashton - just confirms what most people outside Northampton think about him - an odious git

Also I didn't think Ashton deliberately grabbed hair in some sort of attack (or cowardly act). More like he missed the first tackle and just grabbed hold of whatever he could. He then used it to try and drag the player into touch. Bad? Yes. Banned? Yes. Agree with most of the stuff on here? No..

There's quite a difference between grabbing the hair by accident in the tackle, I assumed he'd done that by accident. Then dragging the prone player into touch by his hair was not accidental and it did not stop the minute he was in touch, Ashton draggin him right out of the field of play and made sure Alesana knew about it. After the initial there was plenty of Alesana to grab and drag him into touch with, it was a cheap shot I'm afraid.

Agree with the bit about Lawes. I also thought he was trying the grab players rather than punch anyone. We seem to be the minority though.

From memory (not got the option to check and point out the correct timing whilst at work) it is when he thunders into Alesana as Alesana shoves Ashton up against the hoardings. He crashes into the back of him and raises his arm as he goes in, it connects and then he grabs hold of Tuilagi round the neck (though not in a dangerous way) whilst Agulla flails at him. Whilst Lawes has gone in to try and stop the mess that initial entrance to the contact probabley needs reviewing.

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/pictures/Gallery-Leicester-Tigers-30-Northampton-Saints-25/pictures-14044539-detail/pictures.html

Some pictures of the game there, the second one is interesting as it shows Alesana pushing Ahston up against the hoardings but is noticeabley lacking an initial punch. Not sure what happens after in the melee but I doubt anything as Lawes enters.

brennomac wrote:Pity the clip is blocked but it must have been some pretty hairy stuff for Geordan Murphy to come in swinging his fists. Would be nice if he showed some of that spirit when wearing an Ireland shirt!

As for Ashton - just confirms what most people outside Northampton think about him - an odious git

Nah...i dont dislike him ...i have said it before...i think everyone has just jumped on the i hate ashton bandwagon....

HammerofThunor wrote:Also I didn't think Ashton deliberately grabbed hair in some sort of attack (or cowardly act). More like he missed the first tackle and just grabbed hold of whatever he could. He then used it to try and drag the player into touch. Bad? Yes. Banned? Yes. Agree with most of the stuff on here? No.

For me the first part of the tackle was a penalty and no more. Tuilagi has skinned him, he misses the first grab, then grabs the hair and collar - leeting go as tuilagi falls. So far if anything it is a lesser offence than BODs on Smith.

However he then grabs the hair again to drag a prone Tuilagi into touch. this for me is where the citing then comes into play. Not knowing what Ashton was thinking I cannot comment on motivation etc.

I don't dislike Ashton. Sure I think he's immature and a bit foolish but he's not alone in that regard. Good player too.

i agree with beshocked on ashton, think he gets some unwarranted criticism, partly because hes a very good winger, partly because he just has this ability to put himself in positions where he's asking for it.

Ashton should be banned for life or at least the rest of the season. To tackle by the hair is bad enough, but to drag by the hair once the "tackled" player is on the floor and defenceless is indefensible. It's plain to see on the video. Two grown men standing up and punching each other is NOT as bad as pulling hair, that crosses the same line as biting and gouging does.

Who remembers this one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGE3ylYtYCs

Note both players got on with it and there was no squeeling and none of the histrionics. Must be something about English rugby players...they act and are more like English soccer players these days....must be in the genes.

DOD it was very different. I refer you up a few posts as to why. Part 1 was similar to BOD but not as bad. Part 2 caused the problem.

The people who reacted the most for tigers were an Argentinian and an Irishman. Oh and this Tuilagi is Samoan - unlike Manu who is of course from the Berkshire Tuilagis

Glas a du wrote:Ashton should be banned for life or at least the rest of the season. To tackle by the hair is bad enough, but to drag by the hair once the "tackled" player is on the floor and defenceless is indefensible.

O please !! - I have been very critical of Ashton on here but banned for life - sorry thats plan silly

In answer to the above I also do not think Ashton stopped after he was in touch - thats the problem.

I remember reading one of Luke Abraham's citing reports after he had punched someone. He mentioned in there that his his was pulled in pretty much every game and he never reacted to it (it had something to do with the lead up to the scuffle). Seems most rugby players are little girls. Or does it not count if it's in a ruck or scrum? More of the dark arts cowpat

I maintain hair pulling is for girls.

i agree with beshocked on ashton, think he gets some unwarranted criticism, partly because hes a very good winger, partly because he just has this ability to put himself in positions where he's asking for it.

+1. He had a storming game on Saturday there was just three occasions when he was acting like a real tool. The late shoulder on Geordie, the hair pull on Alesana and then scrapping on the floor in front of the CAT stand. If he'd not bothered with that rubbish his team might well have won and he would have been in the running for man of the match. As it stands he got one of his teams best players sent off and is in line for a citing.

3-4 weeks would be ample punishment btw. Give him until the new year to think, "why the bl00dy hell did I do that?" and then get on with it.

I honestly think that the 'late' shoulder on Murphy wouldn't be called that if it was the other way round. It was little bump just after the ball was kicked. Nothing in it what so ever. IMO of course.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Ashton should be banned for life or at least the rest of the season. To tackle by the hair is bad enough, but to drag by the hair once the "tackled" player is on the floor and defenceless is indefensible.

O please !! - I have been very critical of Ashton on here but banned for life - sorry thats plan silly

In answer to the above I also do not think Ashton stopped after he was in touch - thats the problem.

Two things, first, Paul Ringer got a ban for much less.

Second, dragging a player by his hair is OK as long as he's on the field of play. Is that what you are advocating?

Girls scram, bite, kick and pull hair in a fight as in evolutionary terms females have had to fight dirty to even the playing field. There is no room for hair pulling, gouging, ball grabbing, biting or kicking on the rugby field. I was exaggerating, but the authorities will be a laughing stock unless Ashton gets a lengthy ban.

DOD wrote:Who remembers this one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGE3ylYtYCs

Note both players got on with it and there was no squeeling and none of the histrionics. Must be something about English rugby players...they act and are more like English soccer players these days....must be in the genes.

The main offenders being an Irishman, an Argentinian and a Samoan. Well done DOD. You've missed the point completely... BOD tackled someone by the hair accidentally and you could argue that Ashton did too. But I don't remember BOD then grabbing a handful, on purpose, and dragging him across the pitch.

honestly think that the 'late' shoulder on Murphy wouldn't be called that if it was the other way round. It was little bump just after the ball was kicked. Nothing in it what so ever. IMO of course

It was nothing serious but Ashton knew what he was doing and it was bound to raise the temprature of the game. It was a silly thing to do and if it had been called would have been a) a soft penalty and b) to a card happy ref like Barnes the chance to stamp his authority on the game with a card. Saints like to add niggle to the game and Geordan has never had the mildest of temprements but his team were on the front foot and he would have been better keeping his nose clean.

formerly known as Sam wrote:http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/pictures/Gallery-Leicester-Tigers-30-Northampton-Saints-25/pictures-14044539-detail/pictures.html

Some pictures of the game there, the second one is interesting as it shows Alesana pushing Ahston up against the hoardings but is noticeabley lacking an initial punch. Not sure what happens after in the melee but I doubt anything as Lawes enters.

That's an odd claim, he's noticeably winding up for a punch in that photo. Don't blame the guy, but he definitely threw at least one punch that connected. Only a body shot though, so hope he gets a minimal ban if not avoid it altogether.

Ok... lets assume that Ashton, Lawes, Wood, Tuilagi, Murphy and Agulla all go to the citing officer this week end up with (for arguements sake only) 4 week bans.

For Tigers that could be disastrous going into the HEC double header next week. Not so for Saints as their campaign is pretty much over.

Then we have league fixtures the week after. Tigers have a tricky trip away to Worcester. And then Sale at home after that. This could be a disaster with 3 of our current best 6 available backs banned!! Hopefully we will have Manu back but what is the line up going to be?

9 Youngs
10 Flood
11 Morris?
12 Matt Smith
13 Manu Tuilagi?
14 Billy 36?
15 Hamiltion?

To be honest we've put out worse this season.

Saints are at home to Bath and then away to Newcastle. Too games they should win easily.

I'd prefer to see;

9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Hamilton (more physical ball in hand and is a better winger than fb)
12.Twelvetrees (he's a centre)
13.Manu
14.Smith (can play 11,13,14,15 and 12 in an emergency)
15.Morris (showed early form here unlike Hamilton)

Hopefully Tait will recover and take the 23 shirt (if not errr... Lewington unless Forsyth is recovered) with Harrison the 21 and Staunton the 22.

Glas a du wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Ashton should be banned for life or at least the rest of the season. To tackle by the hair is bad enough, but to drag by the hair once the "tackled" player is on the floor and defenceless is indefensible.

O please !! - I have been very critical of Ashton on here but banned for life - sorry thats plan silly

In answer to the above I also do not think Ashton stopped after he was in touch - thats the problem.

Two things, first, Paul Ringer got a ban for much less.

Second, dragging a player by his hair is OK as long as he's on the field of play. Is that what you are advocating?

Girls scram, bite, kick and pull hair in a fight as in evolutionary terms females have had to fight dirty to even the playing field. There is no room for hair pulling, gouging, ball grabbing, biting or kicking on the rugby field. I was exaggerating, but the authorities will be a laughing stock unless Ashton gets a lengthy ban.

I have said that Ashton should have got a Red and should be banned so how you can interpret that as saying I believe hair pulling is ok is beyond me.

It is the life bit as nonsense - which you now admit was an exaggeration.

Rugby dump footage is back up

http://www.rugbydump.com/2011/12/2265/alesana-tuilagi-and-tom-wood-red-carded-following-touchline-brawl-


To be honest I read the description in the article before watching and I was expecting something much worse. It's still bad, but I had images of Ashton dragging a player on the ground for a few metres like a caveman. Maybe because I was expecting the worst and am a bit relieved by what I saw.

I had images of players running the width of the pitch to get the punches in, but Lawes and Murphy, at least, were right there when it kicked off. Still shouldn't be throwing punches though.

Murphy should be particularly ashamed of himself. He pinned the ballboy against the advertising hoardings while swinging his fists, he could easily have connected with the kid. For that alone he deserves a length ban.

One positive from it was there were so many bodies in the melee that players couldn't get a decent punch in, so no one was seriously hurt.

I'm no fan of Ashton, but I've seen players do a lot worse. Not that that's an excuse, but I think the proximity of other players caused the fight, rather than any real umbrage about his actions. It was almost easier to start fighting than not, if you get my meaning.

If Ashton and Tuilagi had started hitting each other away from everyone else, I doubt there would have been such a rush to pile in, the starting offense was just handbags, really.