Kevin Pietersen - His Legacy.

Gregers is going to have a field day with this one...

Now, before I get started, a lot of this is clearly hypothetical at this moment in time, so there will be differing scenarios based upon his performances in the next few years.

Kevin Pietersen is a figure that often divides opinion amongst English cricket fans. Many love the flamboyance, the celebrity status and most importantly the weight of runs that comes with KP, whereas there are of course no small amount that believe him to be brash, arrogant, and accuse him of throwing his wicket away all too often, which they say prevents him from being a great of the game.

As we all know, Kevin has an English mother and a South African father, and due to his being born in South Africa you hear many referring to him as 'the South African' (or one of them!!).

What I'd like to know, is how do you rate Pietersen personally? Furthermore, once all is said and done do you see him being regarded as a great of the English game, possibly even world cricket?

As I referred to at the beginning of this article, a lot depends on Kevin's returns over the next few years of his career. At this moment in time he is averaging in excess of 50 in Test cricket, almost a benchmark for greatness, and is well set to become England's highest run scorer/century maker, alongside Alastair Cook (who will eventually top both), I'd say.

Should he do so, and let's say he ends his Test career with 9000 runs and in excess of 25 Test centuries, would you regard him as an all time great? Personally, I would, and I already do view KP as a great cricketer. A consistent run scorer, very good at converting 50's into big 100's, and an innovative and exciting player that can destroy and demoralise attacks in the manner that Viv Richards et al were known to do.

Should he suffer a drop in form and fade long before such figures are reached, I'd still be very much tempted to class him as a great of the English game.

Like I said though, KP divides opinion like no other, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Gregers, you need not apply, I already know yours

Thanks

As you say Fists, a lot depends on the rest of his career.
If he ends up having played 100+ tests, near enough 10,000 runs, 25+ centuries and an average of 50+, then he'd be a strong contender to be classed as an all-time England great at the very least.
He has had the advantage of playing most of his career in possibly the most batsman freindly era ever, (as have many others), but has shown in the past that he is capable of holding his own against great bowlers. On the flip side, it should be taken in to account that his batting style is not conducive to high averages as he is more liable than most to play flamboyant shots at any stage of his innings.
At the moment I'd say that he is a very good batsman. Certainly England's best middle-order batsman since Gower. But if he can continue his recent upsurge in form until the end of his career, and achieve the sort of figures I mentioned, then he can definitely be talked of as an all-time England great, and possibly even an all-time world one (although I think that's a bit of a stretch).

Very good point, Hoggy. He will never average high 50's sort of region, because his batting style just isn't conducive to such figures as that of a Kallis is.

However, I'd suggest that KP makes up for it with some defining innings and of course the massive entertainment value he brings with it. No doubt in my mind that he, along with Flintoff, has had a very big impact on young kids in this country, and as such his wider impact must also be considered.

A pleasure to watch him bat, in my opinion, and hopefully his run of form can continue for many a year.

I should add that I have a huge amount of respect for the man, given the often overlooked bravery he showed by moving to a foreign land at a young age purely for his love of the game of cricket, and feel that much of the stick he comes in for is harsh and undeserving.

Yes, he frustrates at times, but then don't all of the most gifted? In terms of pure talent I have him right up there amongst the best batsmen in the sport, but an entertainer is always destined to be his own worst enemy on occasion.

Already an English great, for me, but wouldn't argue with your take on it.

Fists of Fury wrote:Very good point, Hoggy. He will never average high 50's sort of region, because his batting style just isn't conducive to such figures as that of a Kallis is.

However, I'd suggest that KP makes up for it with some defining innings and of course the massive entertainment value he brings with it.

Yep, I'd agree with that Fists, and argue that KPs ability to play match defining innings and entertain the crowd, goes a long way to making up for the discrepency in averages between him and someone like Kallis. However I, personally, wouldn't class Kallis as a world all-time great batsman either (all-time great South African batsman, yes. All-time world great all-rounder, yes. All-time world great batsman, no), and the same would have to apply to KP IMO.

It obviously comes down to individual assessment of the player, as there is no true way of saying who the greatest batsmen ever are, other than averages (which can be misleading) and factors such as their influence, wider impact on the sport, and of course their defining moments.

Kallis, as I've said before, doesn't really have those defining moments, leading me to class him as a great batsman of the game, but not quite as great as Ricky Ponting for example.

This next couple of years are key, but KP may just be on the cusp of greatness, and some outstanding form across that period could see him cross the threshold in the eyes of some.

He may end up as a fantastic player, but an alltime great with 9000 runs and 25 test fifties definitely not.

There are a good number of players around with his ability and statistics and yet I think much of his hype came about becuase of how he announced himself on the international stage by slagging off SA.

That in my opinion is the reason why his career has been in a sense controversial or perhaps noticed more than others with the same ability.

As a player I think he is entertaining to watch and an asset for English cricket, but far to many sport stars these days love the limelight, whether it is their ego's or just a way they see they can make more money I don't know. Be it as it may, he will always be part of discussions when we think back to the previous generation players in 2030.

A great player like Sangakarra, yes but not an alltime great, IMO.

Of course the word 'great' is totally subjective.

Right where do I start.

I completely agree with Fists comment about him being brash, big headed and throwing his wicket away. KP rarely coverts starts to 50s and then 50s too 100s, however I will add that once he gets a hundred he usually scores 150-200+. I don't believe he has the temperament for test cricket especially when the going gets tough, his 'flamingo' shot (also known as the stand on one leg fall over slightly and hoik it straight to midwicket)

In the field KP is very average as well, who can forget his first ashes series when if the ball was in the air near him you knew he wasn't going to hold it.

In tests he is a liability at the crease and in my opinion he is behind the likes of Bell, Thorpe, Butcher, Ramps and even Trott in the line of best English middle order players in the modern era. He is not consistent enough and should have been dropped several times from the national side. In ODI's he once again shows his lack of discipline as well of appearing to give up like he did at the world cup earlier this year. Finally, in T20 the great myth is that KP is any good. In domestic t20 he has done literally nothing of merit.

We then come onto his attitude. At Notts he had the infamous bag chucking moment, where his captain at the time chucked his bags down the stairs after KP had belittled the rest of the side. On going to Hampshire KP settled well to start with but his treatment of the 'young guns' eventually alienated him at the rose bowl as well. His form and attitude costing him his place at Hants as well. This led to the ridiculous fact of KP playing for England whilst being out of form and countyless. Since signing for Surrey he has hardly played for them, and for my money wouldn't get into their side which I see as being incredibly settled with young guns.

And then we have his disastrous captaincy of England. In the recent revelations from Graeme Swann's book it once again shows how awful a choice of captain KP really well. His failures as captain are well documented. However many 'great' players have made awful.

So the question of where I see KP in the list of English test players (that I've watched in my lifetime). This might surprise all of you but I would say that KP is definitely top 25. Even I can't ignore how talented he obviously is, but he is and will always be held back by his attitude, persona and technique.

Can he become a true great?

Yes

Will he become a true great?

No, not unless he changes his technique, attitude and persona. KP needs to sort out his left arm spin problem as well as his shot decision especially when we are stuck in tricky situations away from home. Players such as Sangakkara, Dravid, Hussey and De Villiers (amongst others) have performed in all conditions and consistently play 'that' innings. KP does not, or at least has not yet. There is still time for KP to get to that level. However, for him to be a modern day great he much reach the level of the aforementioned players as well as players such as Kallis, Ponting, Laxman and of course the God of the modern era Sachin Tendulkar.

So where do I see KP in 3 years time? Certainly not with 10,000+ test runs. I'd imagine he will be retired from tests and probably ODIs.

However, I do see him as being an example of this age.

My true opinion? KP is not currently a great of all time of the English game. However, he is a shining light of the modern day and for that I respect him and will add that he will certainly be in the top 50 English Batsmen of all time (if not 25).

Haha dear me, that is an assassination if ever I've seen one!

Gregers, I'd pull you up on the conversion comment, his conversion rate of 19 centuries/25 fifties is perfectly acceptable, very good in fact!

A very detailed post, but one I almost wholly disagree with, of course

10/10 for effort, though.

Conversion rate of 35s to 50s would be interesting for KP, Id imagine its quite low

Hopefully it explains my thoughts on KP

Gregers wrote:In tests he is a liability at the crease and in my opinion he is behind the likes of Bell, Thorpe, Butcher, Ramps and even Trott in the line of best English middle order players in the modern era.

Of those only Thorpe could be argued to be a serious challenger to KPs position as the best English middle-order batsman since Gower.
Though I'm a fan of Bell, he has been FAR more of a liability than KP and has played nothing like the amount of match defining innings against top-class opposition.
Butcher had a few decent series, but overall was nowhere near as good as KP, even allowing for the fact that he probably faced better bowling.
Ramprakash. Really??
Trott. If he carries on the way he has started, maybe. But a bit early to call this IMO.

Yeah that one doesn't wash with me, Gregers. KP is by far the best middle order batsman we have had since Gower, and has the scope to become a fair bit better than Gower was, too.

Ian Bell is a tremendous player, but as Hoggy says doesn't have anywhere near the amount of defining innings or the weight of runs, despute his recent fine form. Trott has done fantastically well, too, but players of his style will often be overlooked for the swashbuckler, and he has a fair way to go before he can be considered in the same bracket as KP.

He isnt tho. To be a great middle order batsman you have to be able to bat properly. KP doesnt do this!

Of course he does. Yes, he has gotten out to some silly shots, but so have many others.

See his double hundred against India as a recent example, that was sublime and all done in proper fashion.

I agree it was sublime and was the first time I have ever thoroughly enjoyed a KP innings. But thats one out of how many?

He has been found out time and time against average at best bowlers. How would KP have fared against prime McGrath, Warne, Ambrose, Walsh, Kumble?

What does it say about the rest of the English bastemn if hes in the top 25 of all time but a liability?

You run down his domestic T20 recoerd...he averages over 30 ( which is good for that dformat) at a decent strike rate ( 139). Its a bit cheeky to igniore that his international T20 record ( more relevant) is even better, 36 average at an even better strike rate (142). Its better than Chris Gayle.
He was part of teh side that won the world cup too wasnt he?
If hes done nothing of note then which English players have? If he isnt a good T20 player then how many players in the world are?

I really cant be bothered to go through every point you have made bbut its pretty clear you decided to dislike him from an ealry stage and have looked for reasons to justofy this since. The conversaion rate of 35s is ridiculous, I can only assume it was a joke. Its comepltly meaningless.


Sure hes no SRT but its no reason for the amount of stick he gets, most players arent. He wont ever be remebered as an all time great, but he shouldnt be remebered as a tool either. He was aprt of sides that won the Ashes finaly, and part of the side that won them in Aus, finaly.

He fared just fine against McGrath, Warne and Kumble.

He plays fast bowling very well in general, too. A fantastic duel in the past couple of years has been Pietersen and Steyn. I believe Steyn has got him 3 times, but in the process has taken a fair bit of stick from KP's blade, so I always find that one intriguing to watch. World class batsman against world class bowler, it's what Test cricket is all about.

PLayer of the tournament at that T20 world cup, too, PSW. Another defining moment, in that format at least.

Gregers wrote:I agree it was sublime and was the first time I have ever thoroughly enjoyed a KP innings. But thats one out of how many?

He has been found out time and time against average at best bowlers. How would KP have fared against prime McGrath, Warne, Ambrose, Walsh, Kumble?

Well he fared better against 'non-prime' McGrath and Warne than Bell did.

Non prime my hat, did you see their returns in those series? @Gregers

Hi chaps,

Not much time time now but just a few thoughts. If anyone wishes to challenge, I'm happy to reply tonight (I'll also give my votes then for the 606 v2 Cricket Awards).

I think Gregers overststates his case and is wrong to concentrate on Pietersen's technique and conversion rates. However, he is absolutely right in my view to doubt Pietersen's attitude. His attitude has done no good for county cricket which should be the foundation stone of our test side.

Pietersen is highly unpopular amongst the members at Surrey. Before someone says they're a bunch of ''stuck up fuddy duddys'' (or something less polite!), I would leap to their defence and emphasise that generally they're pretty knowledgeable and very caring about their county and championship cricket. It's accepted that he can't play much for Surrey due to his central contract but he seems to show no interest in his new county or his colleagues there. This is in marked contrast contrast to Chris Tremlett who regularly attends Surrey matches even when not playing. Someone even sadder than me went through all Pietersen's tweets last season and found only a small handful relating to Surrey.

Pietersen does seem to have a track record for this sort of thing based on his time at Notts and Hants.

In my view, Pietersen is an extremely talented cricketer but I cannot warm to him as an individual. He is on the cusp of being a great batsman but would be a long way from getting a YES vote from me for our Hall of Fame.

JDizzle wrote recently of Graham Dilley that ''he was perhaps not a great cricketer but he was a truly great man''. Pietersen is very much the opposite of that for me. I know where my preference lies ....

Kp against prime mcgrath and warne would have been awful.

Would Kp have got into the great Australian side? No. That puts him behind Ponting et al. Equally would Kp have got into the Indian batting Lin up? No. Sachin, Dravid, Laxman and even Ganguly (for my money) were/are better than a prime Kp.

Converting 35s to 50s is a great failing of Kp, just as it was with Hussein who was regularly slated for it. Yet Kp gets treated like an undropable god.

As for t20 he only has 10 domestic 50s and no hundreds. For a man of his style and power he should be averaging far more. How many match winning t20 innings has Kp played compared to say Dhoni, McCullum, Hussey etc?

Been fortunate to see a number of Pietersen's Lord's Tests, where he invariably does well (he loves the London Tests). Yes, his record does include a lot of 40s which must be the sort of score a good batsman dreads. (You expect the odd nought, but 42, what's that?)
It's clear he can be a difficult bloke. But IMHO he's already an England great - 6,300 runs and 19 Test centuries, including some match-turning and match-winning ones.
His performance in 05, topping the Eng averages in his first Ashes Test against a strong bowling attack, was outstanding. England may have won in 09 largely without him but I think he would be the first on the team sheet for most Eng captains.

i sometimes think too much gets read into KP the person and allows people to be very blinkered in their views on KP the cricketer , i particulary notice this alot from hampshire fans for some reason

KPs stats as a cricketer over the 7 seasons since he broke into the team are as good if not better than any of his peers and the period between 2005 and 2008 in particular he was outstanding

alot gets made of the moores drama and that gets mooted as a defining moment in his career and that his stats after that event went downhill but it also should be remembered that for most of the last 3 years he has been quite injury prone and i think those injuries have played a big part in the form issues he has had. 2009 for example he had an achilles injury for most of the year, it was obvious when he was batting the injury was affecting him but he tried to play through that injury because of the ashes series before eventually missing the end of the series.

he returned from that injury too soon imo because the next tour was to south africa, a tour he didn't want to miss, and struggled to get his form back and with him being a player who relies very much on his natural ability rather than technique i think he started trying to change too many things about his game to try and get his form back and lost what made him so good in the process.

the last 12 months his numbers have looked better thanks to a couple of big scores but he still isn't back to his best imo but has showed frequent glimpses that he is still capable.

i think a better question that some people who are being critical of him would be to ask where england would have been without him, particularly during that period between 2005 and 2008.

In my opinion he would be 6th on the team sheet at highest atm:

Swann
Anderson
Cook
Mogs (ODI)/Trott (tests)
Prior
Then Kp

Maybe with Bell, Broad and Bresnan ahead of him

Rich: How much do you know about the hants situation? Because I happen to know a fair bit about it (with Vince being there) Kp never going to the academy, not chatting to his teammates etc. Then we have the "I want to leave as its too far to drive" situation which is up there with Tevez at man city for ridiculousness!

To answer your question about 05-08 I would agree that Kp was one of the best players in the world. Since then he has been decidingly average. Especially in one day cricket where arguably he should be better suited and England need him to deliver more often. Having said that his peak was 3 years, not exactly the making of a greatest of all time player. How long peaks did/have Hussey, Dravid, Ponting, Laxman, Sachin etc had?

Have to agree with Sir Fred here, already an English great and has a chance of becoming a world renowned great.

Gregers, KP would oust the likes of Katich and Martyn without much hassle. Likewise, he is a better batsman than Laxman and Ganguly, for my money. We all like different qualities in batsmen, remember, so others may view it differently and that is the beauty of these hypothetical rankings and such.

Guildford, I see what you're saying about KP and Surrey, but you have to look at it from his point of view, too. He is a massive player for England in all formats of the game, and as such his time with Surrey is going to be minimal. He is right then to care more for England, surely? He isn't deluded here, he knows that Surrey is purely a base for him, and a place where he can get some match practice if needed, but you have to remember that Surrey don't pay him, too. In short, it is hard to see why he would have a solid allegiance to Surrey when his involvement with them is so minimal. If anything, Surrey could be pleased that his name is associated with theirs, as it undoubtedly gives them a degree of grandeur, however obscure. In fact, that is why I think they took KP on in the first place, as opposed to anything he may do on the cricket field for them.

KP has obviously upset a few people at the clubs he has been at, but to counter that I'd suggest that he is an immensely driven man, always striving to give his best for England. You hear constant reports of him being first in the nets, last to leave, and working relentlessly on any issues he is having. His desire to be the best still burns bright, and the manner of some of his dismissals are more a side effect of the way in which he bats than his not caring, as I sometimes see levelled at him.

When you add to that his key role, to my mind, in shaking up the England setup by speaking out against the Moores regime (at a cost to himself i.e. losing/resigning the captaincy) I think it is slightly unfair to criticise him as a person. For me, he has his priorities right in what he does. That may not be to the taste of Surrey fans or their hierarchy, but looking at it objectively it seems to be the case to me.

Gregers, sorry mate but you are just speaking utter guff now, and maybe you should take a break and have a cool down

I know India had their problems in England last summer, but KP scores of 200 not out at Lord's (where the conditions were not that easy) and 175 at The Oval should not be sneezed at. Oh, and didn't he got 227 at Adelaide not a million years ago ?
Of course we could always go back to the Graveney/Gower situation and omit a worthy player and replace him with one whose performances would fall well short of those of the dropped star.

As a player, i like watching him bat, but he should have more runs to his name now. He has a graceful style, but gets out far to easily far to often.
He is a good player, but i wouldn't class him as a great, not yet anyway though that depends on the rest of his career obviously.

As a person, to be honest as long as he's doing his buisness on the pitch, i don't really care. It's not like he's constently getting drunk, falling out of nightclubs or doing worse.

Gregers wrote:Kp against prime mcgrath and warne would have been awful.

Would Kp have got into the great Australian side? No. That puts him behind Ponting et al. Equally would Kp have got into the Indian batting Lin up? No. Sachin, Dravid, Laxman and even Ganguly (for my money) were/are better than a prime Kp.

Converting 35s to 50s is a great failing of Kp, just as it was with Hussein who was regularly slated for it. Yet Kp gets treated like an undropable god.

As for t20 he only has 10 domestic 50s and no hundreds. For a man of his style and power he should be averaging far more. How many match winning t20 innings has Kp played compared to say Dhoni, McCullum, Hussey etc?

Would people think that Ponting and co were so grreta had they been facing Macratch and Warne isntead of Silverwood and Salisbury?


How often did Hussein get dropped? The difference between Hussien and Pietersen is that Pietersen when he does convert his 35s makes a lot mor weand a lot bigger centuries and (without chekcking the stats) I suspect gets more 35s in the first place.
Its frankly a daft thing to critisize people for anyway, just like Watson being pilliored for making 50 almost every time he batted. That Hussein unfairly got grief from peopel looking to ahvea go doesnt mean its suddnely a valid criticism on Pietrsen.

With regard to being a great I guess it depends where you set the bar. He desrves to be up there with players like Gower who had a slot of style which hes remebered for but did he really acheive that much as a player? Pietersen is rightly rated as one of the top English batsmen of his generation, and one of the few to justify a place in all 3 squads throughout his career to date. He should be remebered as a solid and important performer and good servant to the England side. His attitude toward domestic cricket is another thing, and I can see why fans of his counties would be upset with him over that ...but that shouldnt tarnish how his record for England is perceived ( although it clealry does in some peoples minds).
He will never be a remebered as a Kallis, SRT or Ponting obviously I cant see that anyone has suggested he should be ...but should be rated amongst the next tier. He has certainly done a lot more than most of the batsmen he has played against.

Precisely Fred, nobody can question his recent form when he has smashed 227 at Adelaide last winter, and hit two huge scores against the then number 1 side in the world. Their bowling wasn't at its strongest, but Praveen Kumar was a real handful, and if it was that easy then everyone else would have been getting these scores, too. Add to that the conditions as Fred says and they're two mighty fine knocks.

He has always made his hundreds big, which is a sign of a great player, and whilst I'll hold off from calling him a world great just yet, he has it within his grasp across the next couple of years. Here's hoping he does it.

Better than Laxman? Really?

Katich is an opener. Martyn was incredibly underated and personality wise fitted in with Ponting, Waugh, Waugh, Gilly, Harden etc. Kp isn't in their league imo.

For me Kp needs to bowl far more often for us as well...

Fists mate imo it is you who is spouting rubbish! Take Kp off of the pedestal you have him on.

Katich used to play middle order, actually, as Hayden and Langer opened.

Bowl more often? Why? He is a world class batsman and that's what we need him for.

The majority would suggest it is you talking from an orifice other than your mouth, Gregs. I rightly have him on a pedestal as the best English batsman of his generation (thus far), a great of the English game and with scope to really push his case as a great of the game full stop in the coming years.

As I already posted a very coherent argument outlining exactly why he is good but not great I don't see why you see him as a great.

Again katichs personality fitted far better into a team than kps

You seem to ignore his atrocious attitude because it doesn't fit with your point...

See my response to Guildford above. Please tell me in which way his attitude toward England (the people that pay his wages, not Surrey) is atrocious?

His dedication to the cause and constant striving to be the best he can be is exemplary, in my opinion.

For me KP is a talented player who based on what I have seen has not fully delivered versus his potential.

Should his averages continue to fall he will go down as a very good player, but not a great.

Thankfully they've began to rise again of late, London, let's hope that continues!

i'm not doubting that some of his relationships in county cricket are not the best as FoF has said above tho its england that pay his wages and england that decide where and when he plays

my comment about hampshire fans is that regardless of how his time with the county went some of the vitriolic comments i have seen from hampshire fans about his ability as a cricketer are pathetic and clearly show that personal dislikes are blinding them to his cricketing ability

afaik hes not in the running for a popularity contest , hes a professional cricketer and his approach to the game and how hard he works at the game is as good as anyone in the current england setup

as far as the situation when he left hampshire , he had a contract with the county that was ending , he chose not to extend it and informed the county well in advance of the end of the contract so everyone would know where they stood , dozens of cricketers now move between counties every offseason under freedom of contract, some for alot more mercenary reasons than KP did, but i dont see the same sort of abuse getting hurled at them

comparing that situation to tevez is quite frankly absurd , tevez refused to play for his club while under contract , all KP did was choose to not renew his contract when it expired

Very well put, Rich.

Also, a slightly more cynical view on things, but does the 50% South African come into it with some people, too? I think some people resent that almost, not sure why when he is as much English as he is Saffer, and I'm not sure people would be so critical if his name was Harry Hobbs from North Yorkshire.

Gregers wrote:Better than Laxman? Really?

Katich is an opener. Martyn was incredibly underated and personality wise fitted in with Ponting, Waugh, Waugh, Gilly, Harden etc. Kp isn't in their league imo.

For me Kp needs to bowl far more often for us as well...

Fists mate imo it is you who is spouting rubbish! Take Kp off of the pedestal you have him on.

Whats Laxmans domestic T20 record like?

Katich could be the Queen of Sheeba he still would be nowhere near KP as a player.
If KP doesnt bowl enough that down to the captain not him, and surely a reflection that hes good in that he can bowl...certainly more so than Ponting, Martyn or Hayden.


Again the line comes down to where you consdier a great vs a good player really.

Fists of Fury wrote:Very well put, Rich.

Also, a slightly more cynical view on things, but does the 50% South African come into it with some people, too? I think some people resent that almost, not sure why when he is as much English as he is Saffer, and I'm not sure people would be so critical if his name was Harry Hobbs from North Yorkshire.

No question. That alosng with some of the hype surrounding him no doubt contributed to the number of " no matter hwat Ill find a reason to hate him" people out there. Ponting has more than his fair share of them too, even amongst hi sown public, so I dont think this makes the English fans anything special. Obviously you expect a large number of Aussies/Indians to rubbish him even if he invented a new type of sliced bread.

I couldn't care a jot whether he's 50% saffer.

Isn't Strauss a bit mixed? Doesn't Trott have South African heritage? Didn't Gerraint Jones have the same?

KP has dug Enlgand out of plenty of holes. There's always this buzz and anticipation when he comes to the crease. I don't think there has been a player since Beefy that's had that effect.

People always jump on the negatives. His failed captaincy, the shot selection. But they always forget his important innings, like the 158 at The Oval in the 5th test in 2005. He may have had his issues with spin, but how many times did Cook lose his wicket wafting outside of off and nicking the ball?

As for his influence, i think you'll find he spent time with Monty Panesar in the nets working on his technique.

Thanks KB, you're right, people do seem to jump on the negatives, and more so with KP than others for some reason, which is what I'm trying to locate.

Those most naturally gifted often bear the brunt of criticism, I accept that, but there does seem to be something else to it in this case.

I would say jealousy always plays a part.

Successful, good looking cricketer, pop star wife, has that air of arrogance about himself. Fills paper columns on both good and bad points.

Whislt their careers are hardly similar, you could compare him to a certain David Beckham in terms of how opinion seems to divide them and how people think somebodies personality flaws dictate how great a player they are.

Pretty much spot on, KB.

I'm jealous of him, no doubt!! But still think he is an excellent player, fantastic to watch and wish him every success. Is that too much to ask?

For some people, apparently it is.

I'm a KP fan in the same way i am a huge David Beckham fan. What they do in their personal and private lives does not influence me in the slightest. I much prefer watching them represent their country with pride and passion.

Well my, where do I start?

Let's talk about KP the cricketer.

First of all, of all the batsmen I've seen play, KP would be in the top 3 of the most special talents. Speaking of pure natural ability (by which I mean the ability to make you stop and gasp in amazement) I have him, Morgan and Shewag. I have never seen anyone able to do some of the things those 3 do. Freakish.

Secondly (still on the positives) he is a great entertainer. If I check the cricket scores and find KP is batting I will usually stop what I'm doing and watch for a bit. There aren't many other players in the world who have that effect. I love watching test cricket as much as anyone, but the partnership between Cook and Trott at Cardiff against SL was a bit boring even for me. The game needs players like KP to attract non-specialists.

Thirdly, he makes runs. Important runs and big runs. His averages in all forms of the game are very good. His conversion rate is actually very very good, and he makes quite a few hundreds into the "daddy hundreds".

Some negatives then:
He doesn't have a record that reflects his talent. This is in some way a direct consequence of all the positives. But it is a fact.

For such a talented player he occasionally gets out in some ridiculous ways (one of the worst was his sweep from meters outside off against the Ausies at Cardiff in '09).

He is prone to lapses of concentration (both with the bat and in the field) particularly if the game is drifting. He is also guilty of letting his ego get in the way sometimes.

As a person:

KP isn't very nice. It really is that simple. He is arrogant, selfish and self-centred. I don't just say this, I have heard it from one of his coaches (I shan't name-drop as it was in a private discussion). It is a measure of how good man-managers Flower and Strauss are that he apparently now has his place in the changing-room. The selfish thing doesn't bother me that much (every great batsman has to be a bit selfish) but sometimes his arrogance proves costly.

He probably does think the county game somewhat beneath him. Personally I think this is a shame. I understand where FoF is coming from, but ultimately he is where he is in part thanks to the county game (he certainly wasn't getting anywhere in SA), and he should respect that. I have no doubt that he thinks he's doing Surrey a favour by occasionally playing for them, but remember he needs a county to employ him to play for England, and Surrey took him in when Hampshire effectively sacked him. No, his attitude towards the county game is definitely wrong.

However, he trains hard. Again from first hand accounts, KP cares, really cares, and practices as hard as anyone.

Now let me address some of the (frankly ridiculous) unfair criticisms KP sometimes faces:

1) KP doesn't care. As I say, nonsense, he does. He gives his all everytime he goes out to play for England.

2) He wouldn't have fared so well against great bowlers. Well he did ok against Warne and McGrath in '05 didn't he? To those who suggest they weren't at their peak then, I suggest you rewatch McGrath's spell at Lords (KP made 50odd and came in in the middle of it) and Warne's at Edgbaston. KP also came out in credit during England's whitewash in Australia, which was possibly the greatest achievement of (just to wind up guilford a bit) the greatest side of all time.

3) He has a poor technique (aka he doesn't bat properly). I don't get this one:
a) I don't care what his technique is like, I only care if he scores runs or not. KP's average suggests he does.
b) his technique is actually perfectly fine for an attacking middle-order player. He gets a good stride in, his head is still and over the ball, he plays pretty straight.

4) He's a poor fielder. Not true. He's quick accross the ground, got a terrific arm, and for a big man gets down very well. People who say he's a poor fielder are only thinking of his 6 dropped catches at the start of his career. I don't think he's dropped that many since TBH.

5) Butcher was a better player. I don't know what to say in response to this.

6) KP's T20 record. It's fine. He doesn't open which is where I would suggest the huge majority (quasi-totality) of T20 centuries have been made from.

KP's legacy: he will certainly be remembered for making the switch-hit a genuine shot if nothing else! He will no doubt be remembered as a tremendously exciting player, the one who sealed England's ashes win in '05, and the best english batsman since David Gower (and possibly before then). There will always be an element of what if, but I would be very surprised if in 30 years time he wasn't often quoted in greatest ever English 11s.

A quite fantastic post, Mike, and you cover just about every aspect of KP the man and KP the cricketer.

Just one point I'd make, really, is with regard to KP being selfish. As you say, most great batsmen are selfish and it is actually a necessary trait at times, but it is also what drove him to come to England in the first place - that selfish desire to forge himself a career and make good on the obvious potential he had. Again, you have to be self-centred to do such a thing, so in that instance I wouldn't see it as a bad thing.

Obviously it will rub certain people up the wrong way, but nobody is perfect. As far as I am concerned he gives his all every single time he plays for England, he also gives his all in ensuring that he is fully prepared to do so. Coupled with this performances, I can't find much to moan about, because he most certainly isn't letting anyone down and is a tremendous asset to this great England side, probably the jewel in the crown in fact, alongside James Anderson.

Fists of Fury wrote: probably the jewel in the crown in fact, alongside James Anderson.

Glad someone recognises the importance to England that Jimmy brings.

You won't find many bigger fans of Jimmy A than me, KB.

A truly world class bowler, and his mastery of the art of swing bowling leaves me mesmerised. I feel he is finally getting his dues now, since his excellent tour of Australia where he dispelled many remaining doubts.