Vitali

Most here have predicted a Vitali win over haye. If (for me when) Haye wins, will Vitali suddenly become old and washed up and no credit given to Haye?

No, Vitali hasn't showed any signs of deterioration and has dispatched the likes of Adamek very easily, so Haye would get huge credit, I imagine.

However, the likelihood of Haye winning is slim to none, and slim's outta town (to quote Don King).

Not in my eyes - will give Haye a hell of a lot of credit if he managed to beat him. Vitali may be forty but the beating he dished out to Adamek was just as conclusive as many of the beatings he was handing out back in 2004. You get the odd fighter now and then who has a style to defy father time, or at least to make light of fading speed and reflexes, and Vitali is such a case. If Haye beats even a forty year old version of Vitali given the form the big fella has been in since returning, I'll admit I was wrong and pay Haye the respect he'd deserve.

Here's the problem though, Azania. He won't win against Vitali.

I personally believe Haye will get credit whether he wins or loses because I am sure that whichever of those outcomes he has to confront he will do so with his usual grace and humility.

If Haye wins, it will be because "Vitali's mind wasn't on the job and he was worried that Wlad hadn't fully recovered from his kidney stone operation" (or whatever other ridiculous reasons they can use to discredit him)

However, like Fists, as much as I'd like to see Haye redeem himself in the best way possible, I simply can't see him managing it. I think the best we can expect is a valiant effort with hopefully Vitali being rocked for the first time in a long tme thrown in for good measure.

Rowley, i'm going to buy you a life size cardboard cutout of Haye for christmas

I know it's what you want

Yes.

coxy0001 wrote:Rowley, i'm going to buy you a life size cardboard cutout of Haye for christmas

I know it's what you want

Just don't buy it second hand off Waingro, dread to think what he will have done with it first.

rowley wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:Rowley, i'm going to buy you a life size cardboard cutout of Haye for christmas

I know it's what you want

Just don't buy it second hand off Waingro, dread to think what he will have done with it first.

I'm sure the little 1cm hole in it won't be too noticeable

How much credit does beating an over 40 year old champion like Vitali, who is decent but in reality just a solid champion in probably the worst ever era of heavyweight boxing, really warrant I think is the question? I wasnt inclined to treat Tommy Morrison as the second coming when he beat George Foreman.

Its a sad indictment on the state of affairs when beating an over 40 year old fighter of Vitali Klitschkos calibre, probably just a contender in most other eras is sufficient to be considered one of the top two heavyweights. Even sadder that apparently there is nobody around capable of the job.

If Haye fights liek he did in the 12th round against Wlad then he has a decent chance in my opinion.

Colonial Lion wrote:How much credit does beating an over 40 year old champion like Vitali, who is decent but in reality just a solid champion in probably the worst ever era of heavyweight boxing, really warrant I think is the question? I wasnt inclined to treat Tommy Morrison as the second coming when he beat George Foreman.

Its a sad indictment on the state of affairs when beating an over 40 year old fighter of Vitali Klitschkos calibre, probably just a contender in most other eras is sufficient to be considered one of the top two heavyweights. Even sadder that apparently there is nobody around capable of the job.

You're a bundle of joy

Huge fan of his then, colonial?

Interestingly, how do you rate Wladimir? Do you see him as similar to his brother in terms of calibre or do you rate him a cut above?

I personally would give him a lot of credit for coming back and beating at least the second best heavyweight around at the moment (1st in my book). But like everyone else, I think this is so highly unlikely as will not happen. Vitali would win. I am still of the belief that this fight will not happen anyway and is therefore another waste of everyone's time.

Haye is currently a contender for the worst ever holder of a proper heavyweight belt (i.e. not WBO or worse).

I don't rate either of the Klitschkos at all, but if he beats Vitali he'll be out of danger in that regard for me.

Rewatched the Vitali Byrd fight last night and Vitali looked awful. You can see the cogs turning behind his eyes when he boxes he's so robotic.

Fists of Fury wrote:Huge fan of his then, colonial?

Interestingly, how do you rate Wladimir? Do you see him as similar to his brother in terms of calibre or do you rate him a cut above?

Traditionally I would view Vitali as the better of the two. He has managed to avoid being flattened by heavyweight kingpins like Ross Purrity and Lamon Brewster. He has size and durability at least, that may make him a relatively tough nights work in other era. The respective ages in the two fighters careers I think makes it a closer run thing now but both at their best I would certainly favour Vitali.

In historical terms I think they are just average though, presiding over an awful division that cant muster a challenge. I cant see either being champions in another one belt era unless by virtue of good timing and would consider them a step below the likes of Baer, Sharkey or Schmelling who I think would beat them.

fearlessBamber wrote:Haye is currently a contender for the worst ever holder of a proper heavyweight belt (i.e. not WBO or worse).

I don't rate either of the Klitschkos at all, but if he beats Vitali he'll be out of danger in that regard for me.

Rewatched the Vitali Byrd fight last night and Vitali looked awful. You can see the cogs turning behind his eyes when he boxes he's so robotic.

And Vit is now a slower and far worse version of that. Haye wins via UD of late KO. I've always maintained that Vit has incredibly bad footwork and for me footwork is the key to winning this fight.

If Haye wins, I can see most of this board shouting how Vit was past it, 40 y.o and on his last legs.

He is that now irrespective of the Adamek fight. Haye wont get credit whatsoever.

Vitali's a good Heavyweight in any era, for my money. As Colonial said, perhaps not championship material during most one belt eras, but I don't see the top men from any generation stomping over him with contempt, which seems to be a popular view on here. If not a champion, a very reliable and consistently-ranked fighter who could cause a good few upsets, not dissimilar to Norton. In fact, I'd wager that Vitali wouldn't be blown away in such an emphatic manner as Norton was a couple of times in his best years, but you get the general comparison, I'm sure.

Wladimir, despite being the better technician of the two, doesn't fare quite so well if dropped in to a more competitive era, I'd say. A little too gun shy and lacking in the inside game department to withstand an onslaught from a Louis, Tyson, Dempsey or Foreman, and would be meeting fighters who did all the same things as him, only a fair bit better each time, in the likes of Ali, Liston, Lewis etc. Would be well capable of beating Marciano (sorry to upset a few, but it's sheer lunacy to pretend that a 5'10", 185 lb fighter with the reach of a Welterweight is going to have it all his own way against a man of Wladimir's size and athleticism) and Frazier, but I'd make him no more than even stevens against the pair, and if his jab fails him he's the underdog.

azania wrote:And Vit is now a slower and far worse version of that. Haye wins via UD of late KO. I've always maintained that Vit has incredibly bad footwork and for me footwork is the key to winning this fight.

If Haye wins, I can see most of this board shouting how Vit was past it, 40 y.o and on his last legs.

He is that now irrespective of the Adamek fight. Haye wont get credit whatsoever.

Yeh but Byrd "got to him" by stepping into range, blocking / taking punches and then firing counter overhand punches. I don't think Haye has the ability or heart to execute that strategy.

I do agree with you up to a point in that I think Haye has far more chance against Vitali than he had against Wlad. However, I will go on form and say Haye will try and nick a decision by blitzing him from the outside about 5 times / round and it wont work.

Haye has to stand in range more, he can't rely on potshotting from the outside as both Vitali and Wlad use their massive height to move out of the way.

Problem is by standing in range he gets his head removed from his shoulders. Unless of course he can do what no-one thinks possible and stop him. Not even Lewis loading up against the one eyed robot could get him out of there. Only been stumbled once (Sanders) and then promptly battered him from pillar to post.

I just hope Haye fights as well as he did against Wlad!

fearlessBamber wrote:

azania wrote:And Vit is now a slower and far worse version of that. Haye wins via UD of late KO. I've always maintained that Vit has incredibly bad footwork and for me footwork is the key to winning this fight.

If Haye wins, I can see most of this board shouting how Vit was past it, 40 y.o and on his last legs.

He is that now irrespective of the Adamek fight. Haye wont get credit whatsoever.

Yeh but Byrd "got to him" by stepping into range, blocking / taking punches and then firing counter overhand punches. I don't think Haye has the ability or heart to execute that strategy.

I do agree with you up to a point in that I think Haye has far more chance against Vitali than he had against Wlad. However, I will go on form and say Haye will try and nick a decision by blitzing him from the outside about 5 times / round and it wont work.

Haye is not stupid enough to believe that ambush raids will work in Germany. He also knows that Vit has a better chin than Wlad and as such will not be reliant on the one punch KO he thought would be enough for Wlad.

alma wrote:But ambush raids are all he did against Valuev and Wlad??

I believe this is what they call it when the nail has been hit on the head.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

alma wrote:But ambush raids are all he did against Valuev and Wlad??

I believe this is what they call it when the nail has been hit on the head.

I think the fact that Haye wasnt ko' (or even close to it) against wlad will give him confidence in his chin to perhaps engage a bit more.

Still have it 60/40 in vitali favour, think he is much better fighter than wlad, and had he not retired once already would be the dominant heavy.

Would still support Haye though, I'd love him to claw back some respect after that showing last time out. He is better than that, I'm sure we can agree on.

You have great optimism for Haye backed up of course by sound evidence.

Vitali's has a poor jab - (the jab he used to batter Adamek with repeatedly barely throwing the right hand)

Vitali's deterioration (deteriorated so much so he's actually lost about two rounds in 8 fights since his comeback)

Sarcasm aside, I think if Haye won it would be huge but bear it in mind he'll still not be the man at Heavyweight!

With you Super, people seem to be basing Haye's chances on two things, firstly Vitali having deteriorated and Haye having a plan other than ambush raids. Since this seems to contradict almost absolutely what both have shown in the ring recently I do not share folks optimism for his chances.

True Jeff, I would say there is more evidence of the existence of goblins in my flower bed than evidence of Vitali on the slide or Haye's multifaceted boxing ability.

I think it natural to assume that at 40 odd years Vitali will have slowed somewhat. I doubt he is the same force he was prior to his break. But the question is has he slowed down enough for Haye to capitalise and does Haye have the tactics or ability to carry out the neccessary gameplan to beat him. I would guess not. Vitali, while I would admit is probably on the decline and has been for a while, I would still forsee having more than enough to deal with Haye.

Im not as optimistic either that Haye has the actual ability to carry out a strategy to beat Vitali and just dont think he is busy enough as a fighter to wrestle the belt of Vitali on his own patch.

I see no "evidence" of Vitali slowing though. I think we discussed how he was easier to hit now than back then but from what I've seen he isn't. In Vitali's first world title win against Hide he clearly lost the first round in that one and was caught by decent combination from Hide. Also lost clearly the first round against Sanders. His low guard means he can get hit now and then but due to the fact I can think of just two or three rounds he's lost since his comeback (8 fights) I'm not so sure if he's sliding just yet.

He has looked slower and heavier on his feet to me than against Hide and Sanders for instance. But as with Adamek, I just dont think its going to matter against Haye. It normal for a 40 year old to slow down physically in terms of speed and flexibility but theres no heavyweight out there besides his brother that I see being able to capitalise.

He seems a bit chunkier come to think of it but honestly thought Adamek would give him some problems with his speed and angles but the way he was shut down from the start doesn't bode well for Haye. I always think VK gets a bad rep for being slow but he seems to have fairly quick hands for a heavyweight and throws a hell of a lot of leather. If he's slowing down then I see it as just slightly.

Super D Boon wrote:He seems a bit chunkier come to think of it but honestly thought Adamek would give him some problems with his speed and angles but the way he was shut down from the start doesn't bode well for Haye. I always think VK gets a bad rep for being slow but he seems to have fairly quick hands for a heavyweight and throws a hell of a lot of leather. If he's slowing down then I see it as just slightly.

Hes certainly not slow for someone whos 250lbs, 6'7 and 40 years old put it that way.

If he were to win, he would get a lot of credit. Trouble is, its probably the biggest "if" in boxing history. He hasn't got a chance IMO, he doesn't hit often enough, move well enough or have the bottle/stamina to stand and deliver the combinations needed to even register on VK's chin. He doesn't have the one-punch power to make a dent.

If Haye thinks he can fight as he did in the Valuev fight, he is seriously mistaken. Vit cuts of the ring too well, hits too hard/often and has surprisingly fast hands.

I see a repeat of the Adamek fight, with VK winning in the 7th/8th round with a KO, or more likely, Booth pulling him out. I don't see VK carrying Haye as he may have done with recent opponents, he just wants to pulverise Haye.

alma wrote:But ambush raids are all he did against Valuev and Wlad??

That's all he could do against Valuev. I believe he was under the impression that should he hit Wlad hard he would KO him. He forgot that Wlad is a very good boxer and has learned to protect his chin.

Haye is a good boxer. You dont win world silver in the amateurs without being firstly a good boxer. I've said before that if he relies on potshotting or ambush raids he will lose. I dont believe he will. There more to his game than pot shotting. Perhaps you base his entire boxing life on those two fights. Some of us look at the boxer and his technique/adaptability.

rowley wrote:With you Super, people seem to be basing Haye's chances on two things, firstly Vitali having deteriorated and Haye having a plan other than ambush raids. Since this seems to contradict almost absolutely what both have shown in the ring recently I do not share folks optimism for his chances.

Watch the Vit/Herbie fight and then watch the Adamek fight. If you cant see a noticeable slowing down of his jab and footwork I dont know what you have been watching.

Haye's career has not been based on ambush raids either. He can mix it up when he chooses. He is sufficiently intelligent to know that relying on the same tactic he employed against Wlad and Valuev will not work.

Super D Boon wrote:True Jeff, I would say there is more evidence of the existence of goblins in my flower bed than evidence of Vitali on the slide or Haye's multifaceted boxing ability.

Ha. Better start looking in your flower beds then.

i cant argue with the point that az is making here. to say that vitali hasnt slowed at all is just not true.

Super D Boon wrote:He seems a bit chunkier come to think of it but honestly thought Adamek would give him some problems with his speed and angles but the way he was shut down from the start doesn't bode well for Haye. I always think VK gets a bad rep for being slow but he seems to have fairly quick hands for a heavyweight and throws a hell of a lot of leather. If he's slowing down then I see it as just slightly.

I knew Adamek wouldn't give him any problems. Adamek had major problems with a very poor Grant and even with McBride. The only surprise was that it wasn't ended sooner.

So not you slightly see him slowing down. 2 posts ago there was no evidence of it. Wumming?

Alex nobody is arguing he has not slowed down, the point is has he shown sufficient signs of slowing down to give Haye a chance or has he showed a marked slowing down in his last couple of fights, would have to say no on both counts.

rowley wrote:Alex nobody is arguing he has not slowed down, the point is has he shown sufficient signs of slowing down to give Haye a chance or has he showed a marked slowing down in his last couple of fights, would have to say no on both counts.

The level of opposition wasn't much cop to capitalise on that fact.

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Alex nobody is arguing he has not slowed down, the point is has he shown sufficient signs of slowing down to give Haye a chance or has he showed a marked slowing down in his last couple of fights, would have to say no on both counts.

The level of opposition wasn't much cop to capitalise on that fact.

And Haye is no different, is the counter argument.

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Alex nobody is arguing he has not slowed down, the point is has he shown sufficient signs of slowing down to give Haye a chance or has he showed a marked slowing down in his last couple of fights, would have to say no on both counts.

The level of opposition wasn't much cop to capitalise on that fact.

Too easy

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Alex nobody is arguing he has not slowed down, the point is has he shown sufficient signs of slowing down to give Haye a chance or has he showed a marked slowing down in his last couple of fights, would have to say no on both counts.

The level of opposition wasn't much cop to capitalise on that fact.

And Haye is no different, is the counter argument.

I believe he is. He's a far superior boxer to Adamek and Briggs.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Alex nobody is arguing he has not slowed down, the point is has he shown sufficient signs of slowing down to give Haye a chance or has he showed a marked slowing down in his last couple of fights, would have to say no on both counts.

The level of opposition wasn't much cop to capitalise on that fact.

And Haye is no different, is the counter argument.

I believe he is. He's a far superior boxer to Adamek and Briggs.

Perhaps he is, but he hasnt really indicated in his performances he has the neccessary ability or style to succeed where others have failed. I would point specifically to the fights with Valuev and Wlad. Wlad, you will say is much better I am sure, but Valuev isnt and what people are really getting at is that why should we expect a vast improvement on these showings?

I understand where your coming from but I think its just a case of people not really seeing much in Haye to be optimistic even accounting for an ageing Vitali.

Hayes superiority didnt really translate into anything obvious over Valuev. I scored the fight to him but thought he only won 3 rounds decisevely and didnt see anything in there to make me think he would beat Vitali.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Alex nobody is arguing he has not slowed down, the point is has he shown sufficient signs of slowing down to give Haye a chance or has he showed a marked slowing down in his last couple of fights, would have to say no on both counts.

The level of opposition wasn't much cop to capitalise on that fact.

And Haye is no different, is the counter argument.

I believe he is. He's a far superior boxer to Adamek and Briggs.

Perhaps he is, but he hasnt really indicated in his performances he has the neccessary ability or style to succeed where others have failed. I would point specifically to the fights with Valuev and Wlad. Wlad, you will say is much better I am sure, but Valuev isnt and what people are really getting at is that why should we expect a vast improvement on these showings?

I understand where your coming from but I think its just a case of people not really seeing much in Haye to be optimistic even accounting for an ageing Vitali.

Hayes superiority didnt really translate into anything obvious over Valuev. I scored the fight to him but thought he only won 3 rounds decisevely and didnt see anything in there to make me think he would beat Vitali.

Lets ignore the Wlad fight. Haye would never beat him in a month of sundays even if they were the same height weight or whatever.

Against Valuev he employed the absolute correct strategy. Hit and not get hit. He didn't want Valuev leaning on him and tiring him out or getting to close to him. That tactic wouldn't work against Vit. When he was a cruiser weight he was more varied in his attacks and style. He used his jab more to set up combinations. He has neglected that against the heavies. He needs to go back to that. Use his speed to create angles. Vit isn't going to chase him as that is not his style. If he does, then Haye should step in and mix it up. VK is very slow and ponderous even at his peak. He is much slower now.

I would say there is a difference between chasing him and cutting the ring off. You would think Adamek would be significantly faster and lighter on his feet, yet VK got to him easily.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Alex nobody is arguing he has not slowed down, the point is has he shown sufficient signs of slowing down to give Haye a chance or has he showed a marked slowing down in his last couple of fights, would have to say no on both counts.

The level of opposition wasn't much cop to capitalise on that fact.

And Haye is no different, is the counter argument.

I believe he is. He's a far superior boxer to Adamek and Briggs.

Perhaps he is, but he hasnt really indicated in his performances he has the neccessary ability or style to succeed where others have failed. I would point specifically to the fights with Valuev and Wlad. Wlad, you will say is much better I am sure, but Valuev isnt and what people are really getting at is that why should we expect a vast improvement on these showings?

I understand where your coming from but I think its just a case of people not really seeing much in Haye to be optimistic even accounting for an ageing Vitali.

Hayes superiority didnt really translate into anything obvious over Valuev. I scored the fight to him but thought he only won 3 rounds decisevely and didnt see anything in there to make me think he would beat Vitali.

Lets ignore the Wlad fight. Haye would never beat him in a month of sundays even if they were the same height weight or whatever.

Against Valuev he employed the absolute correct strategy. Hit and not get hit. He didn't want Valuev leaning on him and tiring him out or getting to close to him. That tactic wouldn't work against Vit. When he was a cruiser weight he was more varied in his attacks and style. He used his jab more to set up combinations. He has neglected that against the heavies. He needs to go back to that. Use his speed to create angles. Vit isn't going to chase him as that is not his style. If he does, then Haye should step in and mix it up. VK is very slow and ponderous even at his peak. He is much slower now.

The cruisers are a whole different ball game to the heavyweights both in terms of size and calibre. Vitali is a quality heavyweight. Hayes performances against vastly smaller and less talented cruisers would only have limited relevance for me. He fights the way he does at heavyweight because he cant get away with what he did at cruiser.

I would see his Valuev tactics as being exactly the same sort of things he wants to happen against Vitali. Avoid him, dont let him lean or manhandle, dont let him hurt you. I think Haye is going to adopt the same kind of approach again. Look to make Vitali come in open and try and land on him. You can praise his gameplan for Valuev, which I would agree was correct. It was his execution that left me with doubts.

But regardless, I see what your point is. I would just differ on Hayes cpabilities to deal with an opponent of Vitalis size and calibre.

azania wrote: If (for me when) Haye wins, will Vitali suddenly become old and washed up and no credit given to Haye?

All of Haye's wins at HW have been against opponents that were old or washed up, yet it didnt stop fans giving him credit.
Anyway, if Haye does beat Vitali than of course the age factor will be mentioned. After all, Haye's only hope of winning is based on the belief that Vitali has deteriorated enough for him to take advantage.

NathanDB10 wrote:I would say there is a difference between chasing him and cutting the ring off. You would think Adamek would be significantly faster and lighter on his feet, yet VK got to him easily.

Did you see Adamek's fight with Cloud (or was it Dawson). He was poor. Very poor. Also his fight with Grant at HW which was supposed to mimic the height and size of VK. He was shocking. I've seen his fights at CW also and I simply did not rate him. Adamek is no way as good as Haye. If you use that fight as a template as to how good VK is then you're making a huge mistake.