Top 3 Wingers in Europe

by RobLewis28 Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:54 am

First topic message reminder :

Interested to see who you beleive are the top 3 wingers in Europe currently? Try and stay as objective as possible!

by IanBru Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:43 pm

My five, in no particular order:

Clerc - my favorite in a long line of mercurial French wingers.
Visser - 32 tries for Edinburgh in 2 and a half seasons. 10 in 11 games this year. Improving every week. Sometimes the facts are simple.
Howlett - getting a bit old, but you can't argue with his magic - player of the HEC so far, for his performance against Northampton.
Ngwenya - when all else fails, it's hard to argue with sheer pace.
Williams - I'm always surprised that he hasn't scored more tries for Ospreys, given his undoubted genius for Wales. Still one of the best though.

by Turkster Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:50 pm

seems the Scots on here don't rate George North in the slightest and think Tim Visser is the best in Europe when he hasn't even been tested at international level, funny old world.

by TJ1 Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:52 pm

visser has two tries in one match in the heineken cup against racing metro North is good - no doubt but is he as good as Visser? - I don't think so Still young and raw. vissers rate of scoring tries per match is so much higher

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:52 pm

Nope, think North is a cracking player, would be a serious candidate for top 3 currently imo

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:53 pm

Turkster wrote:seems the Scots on here don't rate George North in the slightest and think Tim Visser is the best in Europe when he hasn't even been tested at international level, funny old world.

Turkster, don't you get the contradiction? He couldn't have been tested at international level?

by beshocked Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:55 pm

Forget about top 3 wingers in Europe. Someone should rename this the Tim Visser appreciation thread!

Also a posting of his life story would be appreciated.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:58 pm

Your wish is my command, beshocked, I'm away down the road to interview Meneer and Mevrouw Visser as we speak ...

by Turkster Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:01 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Turkster wrote:seems the Scots on here don't rate George North in the slightest and think Tim Visser is the best in Europe when he hasn't even been tested at international level, funny old world.
Turkster, don't you get the contradiction? He couldn't have been tested at international level?

don't you? how can he be the best when he hasn't been tested? this time next year tell us if he's the best, he will have been tested then.

by TJ1 Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:02 pm

So Clerc the best? can we agree on that?
North and Visser second equal?
Ashton first reserve?

by Turkster Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:03 pm

TJ wrote: North is good - no doubt but is he as good as Visser? - I don't think so Still young and raw. vissers rate of scoring tries per match is so much higher

by Sgt_Pooly Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:15 pm

1. Bowe
2. Medard
3. Ashton

by LordDowlais Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:15 pm

Right I am getting bored of this now. I want people to be honest when I ask this. If Visser was Scotish qualified now, would he make the Lions 1st 15. I know who I would be starting with, I would have Bowe on one wing and North on the other, I would also put Ashton on the bench, because dispite his swell endish behaviour he is actually a vey good player. I would hope to see Visser on tour though as back up and for the mid week side. Although he could make the first team if Ashton gets sent home for is silly behaviour. Wink

by TJ1 Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:16 pm

About Visser

He really is that good you know -

The numbers are extraordinary; 32 tries in 47 appearances. He is fourth in the all-time table, with only Nikki Walker, Shane Horgan and Tommy Bowe ahead of him. Walker has scored at an average of a try every 3.25 games, Horgan at an average of a try every 2.58 games and Bowe at an average of a try every 2.54 games. Visser’s average is a try every 1.46 games. It is an astounding strike-rate for any player at any club, never mind a player at a club that has, in his time there, lost considerably more games than it has won.

By comparison, the great Shane Williams has an average of a try every 2.66 games in this competition and the legendary All Black and Munster wing, Doug Howlett, has a 3.2 average. No wonder Andy Robinson is ticking off the days on the calendar to when Visser becomes eligible to play for Scotland, in June next year.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:21 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Right I am getting bored of this now. I want people to be honest when I ask this. If Visser was Scotish qualified now, would he make the Lions 1st 15. I know who I would be starting with, I would have Bowe on one wing and North on the other, I would also put Ashton on the bench, because dispite his swell endish behaviour he is actually a vey good player. I would hope to see Visser on tour though as back up and for the mid week side. Although he could make the first team if Ashton gets sent home for is silly behaviour.

LD, honestly, yes, I would. MacVisser nailed on at 11. Bowe, Ashton and North are all 14 so can compete for that jersey

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:22 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Right I am getting bored of this now. I want people to be honest when I ask this. If Visser was Scotish qualified now, would he make the Lions 1st 15. I know who I would be starting with, I would have Bowe on one wing and North on the other, I would also put Ashton on the bench, because dispite his swell endish behaviour he is actually a vey good player. I would hope to see Visser on tour though as back up and for the mid week side. Although he could make the first team if Ashton gets sent home for is silly behaviour.

Oh, and sorry that we are boring you

by PJHolybloke Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:59 pm

1. Gatland
2. Cockerill
3. Lord Dowlais if he carries on.

What? Ohhhh, wingers, my bad. Very Happy

by Feckless Rogue Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:59 pm

Tim Visser's life story in his own words

The details of my life are quite inconsequential. My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner from Holland with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for rugby. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink, he would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Some times he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy, the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical, summers in Rangoon, rugby lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds, pretty standard really. At the age of 12 I received my first scribe. At the age of fourteen, a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum, it's breathtaking, I suggest you try it.

Or maybe that was doctor evil. I can't remember.

by LordDowlais Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:09 pm

PJHolybloke wrote:1. Gatland
2. Cockerill
3. Lord Dowlais if he carries on.

What? Ohhhh, wingers, my bad.

Oi, less of the cheeck, I am not winging I just don't think that Visser is in the top three wingers in Europe that's all. Very Happy

by Guest Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:14 pm

Visser doesn't miss half the season through international call ups thou so he should score more

by dublin_dave Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:18 pm

hes big has a good track record but ulimately hes dutch. for that reason alone im out. Very Happy

from up this way id go with - ashton,clerc,north,

horgan (maybe not any more), medard, bowe and malzieu (whatever happened to him) and tim visshhher yesssh

by TJ1 Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:21 pm

viewtothegym wrote:Visser doesn't miss half the season through international call ups thou so he should score more

He also scores at a much higher rate of tries per game - and he plays for a team that gets beaten more often than it wins
Walker f a try every 3.25 games, Horgan f a try every 2.58 games and Bowe a try every 2.54 games. Visser’s average is a try every 1.46

by Turkster Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:22 pm

is Tim Visser the new George North?
or is George North the new Tim Visser?
the jury's out.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:24 pm

beshocked wrote:True roddersm you think one of the big French,English or even Pro12 clubs would have snapped him up.

No offence ALAB1OUS but I don't really see Edinburgh as a big side.

Rory Gallagher Ferris worlds best no 6? Seriously? I think you've opened a whole new can of worms there.

ruggerradge to be considered the best in Europe you need to succeed on the European stage - the HC and in internationals (6 nations).

I would love to know why that is hard to believe. To me the only other competition in the world right now is Kaino and Burger. Dusautoir also if you count him as a blindside. Who do you think is above him?

by TJ1 Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:25 pm

I think George north is the love child of Ikcle Shane and fatima Whitbred

by Turkster Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:25 pm

TJ wrote:
viewtothegym wrote:Visser doesn't miss half the season through international call ups thou so he should score more

He also scores at a much higher rate of tries per game - and he plays for a team that gets beaten more often than it wins
Walker f a try every 3.25 games, Horgan f a try every 2.58 games and Bowe a try every 2.54 games. Visser’s average is a try every 1.46

you know I saw one of your posts that didn't mention Tim Visser being the best wing in the NH, that means you've only had 100 chances to tell everyone instead of 101....your life is now pointless. Smile

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:27 pm

People are saying about how Visser needs to prove himself on the world stage.. but then why is Howlett in these best wingers lists if that is the criteria? Obviously he is one of the worlds top try scorers, but isn't this a list of the best wingers in europe right now? If Howlett is there, and hasn't played international rugby in 4 or so years, why can't Visser be?

I honestly don't see why Visser is getting put down so much here. He is a really destructive winger and I can't wait to see more from him.

by Thomond Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:46 pm

Howlett is the top all time scorer for the All-Blacks has played in two world Cups, won a Super 12, HC and a Magners League. Are you seriously doubting Doug Howlett's pedigree on the world stage.

by ME-109 Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:46 pm

Thomond wrote:Howlett is the top all time scorer for the All-Blacks has played in two world Cups, won a Super 12, HC and a Magners League. Are you seriously doubting Doug Howlett's pedigree on the world stage.

Is that it..clearly he's rubbish

by alcoombe Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:48 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
beshocked wrote:True roddersm you think one of the big French,English or even Pro12 clubs would have snapped him up.

No offence ALAB1OUS but I don't really see Edinburgh as a big side.

Rory Gallagher Ferris worlds best no 6? Seriously? I think you've opened a whole new can of worms there.

ruggerradge to be considered the best in Europe you need to succeed on the European stage - the HC and in internationals (6 nations).

I would love to know why that is hard to believe. To me the only other competition in the world right now is Kaino and Burger. Dusautoir also if you count him as a blindside. Who do you think is above him?

I know he's been injured for half the year, but have people forgotten about Juan Smith already? He's been the best blindside in the world over the last couple of years, then Kaino.

by Standulstermen Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:18 pm

Smith has been out injured for more than 6 months in the last two years. I would normally agree with you but he cant be in contention because he hasnt been fit.

For me the best 6 in the world is between Kaino and Ferris. Dusatoir is a 6.5/7. If you consider him a 6 he is right up there though. Burger doesnt come into the equation but as has been said the best 6 i have ever seen play is Juan Smith. Absolutely epic player

On the wings issue it is hard to argue against visser on form but i have gone for the three who i just believe are the best irrespective of try scoring

Clerc
Howlett
North

by Guest Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:39 pm

To be fair to Visser he is a good finisher and like any good finisher he hunts down a chip into the in goal area like a hound dog,
But to start calling him the best in Europe is daft he can't kick he hasn't got a turn of pace and has the turning circle of the QE2.
He won't shine at International level because he will be playing for Scotland! good try scores like Simon Danielle,Sean Lamont don't sore tries for Scotland because Scotland are pretty rubbish.
The best winger in Europe just scored a try against Australia on Saturday.

by Red Right Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:51 pm

1 Clerc
2 Howlett

Think these 2 have been consistently brilliant - pity about Howletts injury.
Very tight between the rest.

3 Bowe.

by Guest Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:02 pm

I think Bowe knocks on and times his angles wrong far to frequent to name him in the top three

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:11 pm

Thomond wrote:Howlett is the top all time scorer for the All-Blacks has played in two world Cups, won a Super 12, HC and a Magners League. Are you seriously doubting Doug Howlett's pedigree on the world stage.

If you are referring to me, I think you read my post completely wrong or misunderstood completely.. If you go to Howlett's injury thread you will see how much I rate and respect the guy. The point I was making was that this is a thread about the top wingers in Europe RIGHT NOW, so that is ignoring Howlett's international record. Yet he still makes the list in the top wingers in Europe as he still is an incredible player. I am saying you don't have to be playing internationally to still be one of the best wingers.

by Red Right Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:17 pm

viewtothegym wrote:I think Bowe knocks on and times his angles wrong far to frequent to name him in the top three

I think you could make arguements for and against a lot of players for the 3rd spot. Williams, Ashton, North you could even make an arguement for Ngwenya if you were to look at try scoring record over the last 2-3 years.

If North keeps developing the way he is, I would expect him to nail a place in the top 3 given his all round game seems strong.

by hawalsh Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:37 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Thomond wrote:Howlett is the top all time scorer for the All-Blacks has played in two world Cups, won a Super 12, HC and a Magners League. Are you seriously doubting Doug Howlett's pedigree on the world stage.

If you are referring to me, I think you read my post completely wrong or misunderstood completely.. If you go to Howlett's injury thread you will see how much I rate and respect the guy. The point I was making was that this is a thread about the top wingers in Europe RIGHT NOW, so that is ignoring Howlett's international record. Yet he still makes the list in the top wingers in Europe as he still is an incredible player. I am saying you don't have to be playing internationally to still be one of the best wingers.

I think the point is that the topic question being asked is who are the best wingers playing here rather than who is performing best in their current environment. Howlett has performed at all levels, there aren't many doubts about his limits, you could be pretty certain of dropping him into any situation and him delivering the goods. If someone hasn't proven their abilty on the international stage or in the top club competition (i.e. HC or SR, and more importantly the higher pressure final stages), then there is still the question of whether they can make that step up. There have been many players who have been superb for club in their immediate league, but for some reason or other can't replicate higher up. I'm not suggesting here that any of the players discussed couldn't make the step up, just explaining what I believe to be the principle.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:06 am

But let us take an example: Say Howlett wasn't as impactful as he is, yet previously has been the worlds top try scorer internationally. Does that make him one of the top wingers in europe now? Also, if you have a player who hasn't been on the international stage yet and they are literally tearing up defences and having a large impact, are they not eligible to be one of the top wingers because of that? Must they prove themselves on the world stage first?

by PJHolybloke Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:12 am

Hey, if Howlett was so good he wouldn't have needed to moonlight as Sideshow Bob would he?

End of. warning

by Sin é Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:16 am

The Japanese winger Ohata scores 1.2 tries per game for Japan. Surely he must be the best winger in the world (69 tries/58 caps).

by hawalsh Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:30 am

Obviously irrespective of your international career you still have to be performing at a high level, and yes someone who hasn't yet proven themselves on the international stage could well be one of the top wingers, but I think it's understandable that people would question to what level they could replicate that form and favour someone who is of a similar ability but has that proven aspect.

by Sin é Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:35 am

PJHolybloke wrote:Hey, if Howlett was so good he wouldn't have needed to moonlight as Sideshow Bob would he?

End of.

Howlett (along with Christian Cullen) scored 0.8 tries per game for the All Blacks.
Rokococo 0.7
Jeff Wilson 0.7
Lomu 0.6
Viviatu 0.7
Joe Roff 0.3

Others -
Clerc 0.5
Shane Williams 0.6
Brian Hybana 0.5
Tommy Bowe 0.4
North 0.5

By the way, just heard that Tommy Bowe has equalled Shane Williams tries in the Heineken Cup for the Ospreys (15 each). Tommy scored another 7 for Ulster. Shane scored 4 for Neath as well.

George North has yet to score in Europe yet (just 2 starts).
Visser 4 tries in 11 games in Heineken Cup. 5 tries in 11 games in Amlin.

by PJHolybloke Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:37 am

So why the Sideshow Bob gig on the moonlight?

I guess The Simpsons were paying the big bucks...

by Sin é Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:58 am

PJHolybloke wrote:So why the Sideshow Bob gig on the moonlight?

I guess The Simpsons were paying the big bucks...

You haven't seen Dougie recently then! I think Dougie lost the Sideshow Bob gig about 18 months ago Very Happy

by PJHolybloke Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:01 am

Sin é wrote:
PJHolybloke wrote:So why the Sideshow Bob gig on the moonlight?

I guess The Simpsons were paying the big bucks...

You haven't seen Dougie recently then! I think Dougie lost the Sideshow Bob gig about 18 months ago

I have seen him recently, that's why I used the past tense "were paying", have you seen The Simpons recently? No Sideshow Bob anymore.....

Hmmmmm. Headscratch

by hawalsh Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:12 am

Sin é wrote:
PJHolybloke wrote:Hey, if Howlett was so good he wouldn't have needed to moonlight as Sideshow Bob would he?

End of.

Howlett (along with Christian Cullen) scored 0.8 tries per game for the All Blacks.
Rokococo 0.7
Jeff Wilson 0.7
Lomu 0.6
Viviatu 0.7
Joe Roff 0.3

Others -
Ashton 0.83
Clerc 0.5
Shane Williams 0.6
Brian Hybana 0.5
Tommy Bowe 0.4
North 0.5

If you're going to include guys at the beginning of their international career in that list, I only think it's fair that we make the list a little more complete.

Smile

by PJHolybloke Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:23 am

Oh-oh, I'm off to get some headgear.... Run

by Sin é Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:37 am

hawalsh wrote:
Sin é wrote:
PJHolybloke wrote:Hey, if Howlett was so good he wouldn't have needed to moonlight as Sideshow Bob would he?

End of.

Howlett (along with Christian Cullen) scored 0.8 tries per game for the All Blacks.
Rokococo 0.7
Jeff Wilson 0.7
Lomu 0.6
Viviatu 0.7
Joe Roff 0.3

Others -
Ashton 0.83
Clerc 0.5
Shane Williams 0.6
Brian Hybana 0.5
Tommy Bowe 0.4
North 0.5

If you're going to include guys at the beginning of their international career in that list, I only think it's fair that we make the list a little more complete.

I included one guy at the beginning of his career (North). Frankly, I wouldn't have Ashton anywhere near any list that Howlett was in. Howlett is pure class and just the complete team player while Ashton is just a schoolyard bully who epitomises everything that is bad in English rugby at the moment (according to Tony Ward in his column in the Irish Independent).

by hawalsh Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:49 am

Sin é wrote:I included one guy at the beginning of his career (North).

If you open the door a crack...

You should have been more conservative, then we wouldn't have had this unfortunate incident.

Smile

by maestegmafia Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:55 am

Reads like there are a lot of people posting that dont know what they are watching...

How can someone dis regard Doug Howlett. Watch the man play, he is an outstanding player.

by **George Carlin** Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:25 am

offload wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
offload wrote:Excluding non Europeans playing here:

Medard
North
Bowe

(Ashton rules himself out on account of him being a t****r)

George North? The best in Eurpoe? Really?

Yes really. He impressed on the world stage and is a shoe in for his national team. Visser has loads of potential but has not performed on the big stage yet.

Do you mean apart from his sole international outing for the Barbarians against England where he scored two tries, including the winner? chin

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