Bath vs Leinster DOUBLE HEADER Teams/Discussion

First topic message reminder :

USING THIS THREAD FOR BOTH GAMES

So Bath went down with a huge fight last week and really put the game to a slightly misfiring Leinster "away" side. Huge performances from Louw and Caldwell in particular and the boot of Barkley giving Bath a lot to cheer about considering the doom and gloom that was felt before the game.

Leinster had a few chances to put the game beyond Bath but didn't take some opportunities they should have. Sexton put in a huge shift which steadied the ship big time, displaying great defence and game management while SOB put in some big carries and great steals.

The game ended 13-18 to Leinster, leaving the pool still somewhat open.

The return game is this Saturday in Lansdowne Rd. Bath fans are expecting the same team out as the injury situation doesn't seem to have changed where as Leinster fans are expecting their "home" team to take the field, introducing the likes of Healy, Toner, Jennings, reddan and O'Malley from the off.

How will the game go?
What are your team perdictions?
What are the vital areas between the teams?
What tactical plans need to be in place for each team?
Will this thread survive without another ROG vs Sexton cat fight?
Score predictions?

Sin é wrote:
Do you think McGeechan selected Earls for the Lions as an outside centre because he was from Munster

Actually sin Earls was selected for the Lions as a utility back and lined out at centre a couple of times for the dirt trackers, alongside Fitzgerald at 12. If you want to use the Lions to support Earls credentials as a center then its only fair to mention that McGeehan felt Bowe was a better bet as an outside center than Earls.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I just don't think Earls has the brain to play in the center. He's an out and out finisher with terrific speed. He's our most dangerous winger so that's where I really want him to play. If your going to move a winger to center I'd prefer it to be Bowe. He's not the fastest winger anyway. But he's the type of very clever footballer who you could see playing just as well in the center as on the wing.

I thought Mcfadden was really good today. More impressive than O'Malley. Reddan was great too.

It's great that we're still playing well despite losing BOD, Horgan and Hines. Leinster actually don't rely on individual brilliance as much as they did when Dr. Phil and BOD were in their pomp. Our attacking game is more of a team effort. I have to say every player seems to have improved under Schmidt, apart from some of the oldies who're probably past their peak.

Totally agree with all of that. And O Malley just needs more time. He is the most natural Irish 13 out there. Needs to bulk up and learn not to miss key tackles at the end of games, albeit well-won or not. That can be taught. His inherent rugby skill set - can not be. Some time with Ireland A's and more time with Leinster in the HC, will bring him on. He has the right stuff. Reminds me of Sexton 2/3 years ago.

Sexton is fast becoming the best Standoff in the NH. Imperious. It will between him and Kearney as Irelands new Captain (after POC and Best have a go in the interim) imo. Both very clever, both fiercely driven and both natural leaders who can lead us all the way to 2015 and beyond.

O'Malley will be fine, don't throw the (little) baby out with the bath water.

Physicality can be developed and improved, especially in a young player but the ability to read a game and awareness of space and support players are innate and you either have it or don't. The 6N might be a bit soon for O'Malley but he's definitely one for the future. He's a classy player.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Do you think McGeechan selected Earls for the Lions as an outside centre because he was from Munster

Actually sin Earls was selected for the Lions as a utility back and lined out at centre a couple of times for the dirt trackers, alongside Fitzgerald at 12. If you want to use the Lions to support Earls credentials as a center then its only fair to mention that McGeehan felt Bowe was a better bet as an outside center than Earls.

I've brought up the Lions selection to support my opinion that Earls has performed at a level playing outside centre that lead to him being selected for a Lions Tour (Earls didn't play on the wing that season for Munster), unlike McFadden, Cave and a few others in his age group who had not played international rugby. Heineken Cup starts for Earls:
o8/09 Season: Centre=5; Fullback=3 (selected for a Lions Tour).
09/10 Season: Centre=6; Wing=2 (year after the Lions).
10/11 Season: Centre=6.

Earls has only played twice (in 22 games) in the Heineken Cup on the wing.

Should we not create a separate thread on this?

Gibson wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I just don't think Earls has the brain to play in the center. He's an out and out finisher with terrific speed. He's our most dangerous winger so that's where I really want him to play. If your going to move a winger to center I'd prefer it to be Bowe. He's not the fastest winger anyway. But he's the type of very clever footballer who you could see playing just as well in the center as on the wing.

I thought Mcfadden was really good today. More impressive than O'Malley. Reddan was great too.

It's great that we're still playing well despite losing BOD, Horgan and Hines. Leinster actually don't rely on individual brilliance as much as they did when Dr. Phil and BOD were in their pomp. Our attacking game is more of a team effort. I have to say every player seems to have improved under Schmidt, apart from some of the oldies who're probably past their peak.

Totally agree with all of that. And O Malley just needs more time. He is the most natural Irish 13 out there. Needs to bulk up and learn not to miss key tackles at the end of games, albeit well-won or not. That can be taught. His inherent rugby skill set - can not be. Some time with Ireland A's and more time with Leinster in the HC, will bring him on. He has the right stuff. Reminds me of Sexton 2/3 years ago.

Sexton is fast becoming the best Standoff in the NH. Imperious. It will between him and Kearney as Irelands new Captain (after POC and Best have a go in the interim) imo. Both very clever, both fiercely driven and both natural leaders who can lead us all the way to 2015 and beyond.

O'Malley is just 24 (9 months younger than Earls)! Earls has 22 starts in the Heineken Cup and 20+ international caps.

Has Sexton or Kearney ever captained Leinster?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:By the way Sin saying Spence is poor at HC level purely to justify claiming that Earls is a better 13 is absolutely cretinous, it really is.

Spence is actually very good at HC level, particularly impressive last season in the double headers against Bath and against Biarritz.

Exactly, and this season at 12. He has the physicality to compete at the highest level, and with more experience and better distribution, he will definitely feature for Ireland at 12 or 13.

I only ruled Spence out until he gets a bit of experience (way back in this thread). When he is a definate starter for Ulster ahead of Wallace & Cave, then he will be in the reckoning. And since Paddy Wallace has got an extension to his central contract, I can't see Spence being a starter ahead of Wallace at 12 (which is where he is starting now due to Wallace's injury).

Sin é wrote:

Gibson wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I just don't think Earls has the brain to play in the center. He's an out and out finisher with terrific speed. He's our most dangerous winger so that's where I really want him to play. If your going to move a winger to center I'd prefer it to be Bowe. He's not the fastest winger anyway. But he's the type of very clever footballer who you could see playing just as well in the center as on the wing.

I thought Mcfadden was really good today. More impressive than O'Malley. Reddan was great too.

It's great that we're still playing well despite losing BOD, Horgan and Hines. Leinster actually don't rely on individual brilliance as much as they did when Dr. Phil and BOD were in their pomp. Our attacking game is more of a team effort. I have to say every player seems to have improved under Schmidt, apart from some of the oldies who're probably past their peak.

Totally agree with all of that. And O Malley just needs more time. He is the most natural Irish 13 out there. Needs to bulk up and learn not to miss key tackles at the end of games, albeit well-won or not. That can be taught. His inherent rugby skill set - can not be. Some time with Ireland A's and more time with Leinster in the HC, will bring him on. He has the right stuff. Reminds me of Sexton 2/3 years ago.

Sexton is fast becoming the best Standoff in the NH. Imperious. It will between him and Kearney as Irelands new Captain (after POC and Best have a go in the interim) imo. Both very clever, both fiercely driven and both natural leaders who can lead us all the way to 2015 and beyond.

O'Malley is just 24 (9 months younger than Earls)! Earls has 22 starts in the Heineken Cup and 20+ international caps.

Has Sexton or Kearney ever captained Leinster?

Not yet. But one of them will take over from Leo soon. Stand out choices by design. I think it will be Sexton. He singularly dragged Leinster over the line in 2 HC Finals and led us there in the big games. Born leader.

I cant see much opposition. SOB no. Heaslip no.

POC or Best for the 6-N. Maybe it would be good to give it to Rory. He's earned it.

As for the Earls at 13 and his experience there.... think Conor Murray. Little experience but the real deal at top level. We must start casting the net wider, post RWC. Continue to bring through obvious talent to replace ageing players.

Also,like Feckless, I dont think Earls has the brain to play 13 internationally. Leave him on
the wing, where he does most damage. Always rated the lad highly and dont want his natural talent stymied anymore. Hope Kidney sees it that way too. I suspect he WILL play Earls at 13 in the 6-N. Big mistake and a waste of precious time in Ireland' s development. He's wasted enough time already.

To be honest I don't really like the idea of the fullback or the flyhalf being captain. The fullback isn't close enough to most of the action to be in the refs ear. A forward or scrumhalf are better placed. And the flyhalf already has his kicking duties. I don't think it's a good idea to add more distractions or responsibilities.

O'Connell will be the next Irish captain. It's blindingly obvious. And he's gonna be starting for Ireland for at least two more seasons. Who is even close to replacing him? He's the best lock in Europe at the moment. After him Best is the prime candidate. Someone else might emerge in the meantime.

However I do agree that Sexton is a leader and will have a leadership role like ROG has had. And he is the best flyhalf in Europe. But I just prefer the captain to be in the pack.

Standulstermen wrote:Should we not create a separate thread on this?

Yes please
Earls not being a great centre has nothing to do with bath vs Leinster at this stage!?

Well played the Boys in Blue, beautiful rugby, as Glas said earlier "Total Rugby", the kind of rugby Bath used to play when I was a boy learning, but better.

Hey-ho, one day Bath might get back up there, but for now I'll keep on taking the medicine.

Oh, and Earls is no more a centre than I was....

Didn't Leinster do ever so well against Bath....

now, where was I? Oh yeah, Earls will prove himself a better centre than O'Driscoll! Just yous wait and see....

Earls wont cut it in midfield, not in all my days he wont.

Cracking winger though.

Earls is good enough I reckon. I don't think he will make a good centre if he plays out his career with Munster though. Munster rugby doesn't exactly encourage creativity. Plus for Ireland Kidney just doesn't seem to be able to inspire any confidence in his backs.

There is mindset in Ireland sometimes that our backs don't have the skill or technique to play like the Oz backs etc. Such nonsense, they have all the required attributes they are just not coached that way plus NH rugby being played through the winter doesn't help because back play is less effective in the wind and rain. To conclude Earls is incredibly talented he probabl isnt in the best environment to improve.

Bah humbug

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Band-
Thanks for bringing this back on topic.

Didn't see the Healy incident and watche the game twice? What happened?

Iv no idea why Cullen has become so ill-disciplined! It's becoming a bit of an issue considering he isn't playing very well aT the moment and toner is outperforming at times. I think he has a chance of a 6n squad spot.

Thought the same about o mallet but he really got shown up yesterday.

If you are watching the game again, it is in the second half (as that was when Healy was introduced) and is in the run up to the first Bath try. Bath made ground up the middle of the pack onto the Leinster 22. There is a ruck and Healy tries some disruptions (as all sides do). As the ball leaves the ruck with Bath attacking down the left side of the field (simultaneous not late) a Bath player picks up Healy on the right had side of the ruck and puts him head first into the canvas. Bath only made about 5 yards on the left hand side of the field when they switch the play to the other side. As the ball is being fed along the Bath backline you will see a medic in a red bib run straight onto the field between the bath players to see to Healy on the floor. Leinster steal the ball back but on the breakout Nacewa coughs the ball forward in a tackle and Bath run it in from the 22m line (you will see Healy still on the floor when Bath pick back up the ball). I was at the game and thought it was bad but it was off the ball a bit so wasn't really front and centre for the live camera feeds.

Wouldn't surprise me if a gentlemans agreement was reached that Leo isn't cited if whoever did in Healy isn't cited either. Does the guy in the stand ever do independent citing or do they just wait for either side or the TV company to come up with a controversial incident for them.

Well played Leinster!

Leinster don't cite. A few years ago there was some vindictive citing and counter-citing going on between teams, so Leinster just decided not to cite anyone ever, and leave it to the independent citing guy.

Anyway, I read in the Sunday paper that Joe Schmidt said he saw the incident in slow-mo and he thinks it was accidental. What he wasn't happy about was that his players got upset and distracted by the incident and conceded a few tries.

Bathite wrote:Well played Leinster!

Thanks did Sexton really disappoint you again? I thought he was outstanding.

He was ok, wouldn't have made much difference if you had my gran playing at ten though.

Well played Leinster good luck for the rest of the HC

Just from a Bath perspective over the last two games: would you mind comparing our two second rows from Saturday please and giving your opinions on Toner and Cullen?

I know Toner didn't start in Bath but I'd be interested in your views

Impressed by Toner, looks good around the park. Seen a lot of talk about Cullen's 'indiscipline' but it seems to me that he plays very close to the line. He slowed down so much ruck ball at the rec, that prevented us going out wide quickly and also allowed turnovers. Can't remember much of the game from Saturday, was pretty hammered by lunchtime and by halftime at Dublin, I went on a self destruction mission!

Either Healy is a finger magnet or he gets unduly aggitated by the usual push and shove of hands and faces in the melees. I'm not saying which it is but I can see players from opposition teams liking the idea of Healy getting hot under the collar and lashing out. I know his game is built up on a certain degree of fury but I'd be in Schmidt's camp... keep focus (no pun intended, I think!) and let the citing guys look for the detail of an offence, if any.

"by halftime at Dublin, I went on a self destruction mission!."

I'm glad to note that the mission failed....

Bathite wrote:He was ok, wouldn't have made much difference if you had my gran playing at ten though.

20 points, drop goals, try, penalties, conversions, MOTM couldn't have been much better really. Your gran must be a great lady.

She is indeed and she also has a sense of humour! Blimey, tough work.

leinsterbaby wrote:

Bathite wrote:He was ok, wouldn't have made much difference if you had my gran playing at ten though.

20 points, drop goals, try, penalties, conversions, MOTM couldn't have been much better really. Your gran must be a great lady.

She must be able to fair shift as well if she could have scored that 4th try! Respect!

I think our 2nd row might be exposed later by the very top teams. Hines is gone and Cullen is not playing as well as the last few seasons. It seems fine at the moment. But remember in 2010 our scrum seemed fine until we came up against Clermont. We were lucky to eek out a win at home with the scrum under severe pressure. Then in the semi's Toulouse minced our scrum and knocked us out. The scrum was not fine after all.

Our scrum has vastly improved since. But it's an example of how weaknesses mightn't be evident early in the tournament but become glaring against the very best teams. Toner deserves praise now but he is pretty much unproven at the business end of the Heineken Cup. We'll see. And Cullen needs a kick up the behind because his performances haven't been good enough.

Bathite wrote:She is indeed and she also has a sense of humour! Blimey, tough work.

I think it's funny (sense of humour) that you can't bring yourself to admit that Sexton was outstanding. Hard man/woman (presume you're male) to please.

Toner has been something of a strength though so far.

If Toner was playing averagely against these not so good teams then i would see the logic of being worried vs Tolouse and Clermont but not as it stands because he has been one of our better players, probably one of our top 5 performers recently.

He was good, he is good, but i'm certain that we would have still got a whooping if say Shaun Berne was at 10, thats how dominant and clinical you were in all areas of the pitch. Thats a compliment to the team, just not going to single out one player. I did notice his forward pass to Fitz try going unnoticed and at that point I stopped watching

leinsterbaby wrote:

Bathite wrote:She is indeed and she also has a sense of humour! Blimey, tough work.

I think it's funny (sense of humour) that you can't bring yourself to admit that Sexton was outstanding. Hard man/woman (presume you're male) to please.

If he plays that well for Ireland, I'll be satisfied. He can't be a top top player until he does it at international level in my book, harsh I know, but in this form, he has all the skills to be a world beater. Beating a poor Bath side at home isn't going to impress that many people i'm afraid

Bathite-

It was Kearney who gave Fitz the forward pass. Sexton was the lad in the pocket who fed McFadden.

Whoops.....told you I was hammered! I'll stop being a wum now!

Bathite wrote:He was good, he is good, but i'm certain that we would have still got a whooping if say Shaun Berne was at 10, thats how dominant and clinical you were in all areas of the pitch. Thats a compliment to the team, just not going to single out one player. I did notice his forward pass to Fitz try going unnoticed and at that point I stopped watching

There were a few forward passes alright.

Bathite wrote:
If he plays that well for Ireland, I'll be satisfied.

Its not easy to look good outside Thomas O'Leary.

I don't know what to make of Cullen. He's dogged, he's obviously a central character in the Leinster set up and has by all means played his part in their history of success so far..... but.... I know every player has his manner and style of play, but he's just overall too dour for me. And I think that's actually important, I think personality comes out in style and I think Cullen can switich on and off 'play' mode too easily. Seems to be his job more than his passion. He's technical without being...visceral and emotionally involved.

And maybe I got him all wrong. But I was watching O'Connell at the weekend. The up-close intensity on his features, the controlling quick tempo chats...and most especially that true expression of his greatness, the openess and downright gentleness of his acknowledgement of the downcast Scarlet players at the end, the big handshake and soft pat on the back of their heads. He knows effort and appreciates it. I have seen Cullen do the cold, cursory, disinterested handshakes with the distant eyes looking elsewhere and I really think he needs to get beyond the 'seeming' attitude that it's paypacket work.

Who will be the Ireland 9 come 6ns? Seems that a short while ago, you had loads of depth, with Reddan Stringer TOL Boss all on form.

Stop making excuses for him! So if he plays outside Reddan or Boss, then he will have nowhere to hide. Unless the 9 is Bergamasco, it doesn't make that much difference, ROG doesn't seem to struggle

Exactly. He hasn't had a chance to play with Reddan much who is the best scrum half in the country at the moment. Murray may overtake him at some stage as he seems excellent too.

OGara struggles as much as Sexton. He was dire v Wales in the WC. ROG can be sublime one day and weak the next.

Everyone has off days, ROG included of course, just don't think you can blame Sexton's Ireland performances on another player. Think that's completely unfair.

Sexton will prove himself...and only the future will tell us that story, but I'm confident he will be one of THE names of Irish International rugby in the next ten years.

Meanwhile, O'Gara is a pretty big shadow to have hovering over you from the bench as you prepare to take an insignificant kick. Sexton has been abused before with that kind of pressure when the management caused confusion in substituting him at inopportune times. But that's what management must do in times of need when someone like O'Gara is on the bench, yet it has only hardened Sexton and he'll be more than ready when he becomes the natural selection.

Bathite wrote:Everyone has off days, ROG included of course, just don't think you can blame Sexton's Ireland performances on another player. Think that's completely unfair.

Sexton has put in some awesome performances for Ireland, in particular against England in Dublin were he was simply awesome. He has been at the helm of victories against SA, England * 2 and Australia and pretty much every significant Ireland win in the past 2 seasons so it is nonsence to say that he hasn't played well for Ireland.

roddersm wrote:

Bathite wrote:Everyone has off days, ROG included of course, just don't think you can blame Sexton's Ireland performances on another player. Think that's completely unfair.

Sexton has put in some awesome performances for Ireland, in particular against England in Dublin were he was simply awesome. He has been at the helm of victories against SA, England * 2 and Australia and pretty much every significant Ireland win in the past 2 seasons so it is nonsence to say that he hasn't played well for Ireland.

And yet he still isn't automatic first choice, something doesn't add up. Either he isn't as good as you think, or your coach doesn't think he is as good as you do. Either way, proves my point

Bathite wrote:Everyone has off days, ROG included of course, just don't think you can blame Sexton's Ireland performances on another player. Think that's completely unfair.

I don't think it has anything to do with O'Leary,it's more to do with playing in a struggling team.While Kidney has been in charge I can honestly say Ireland have only performed well about 5 times.France 2009,S.A. 2009,Eng 2011,Aus 2011,Italy 2011 (World Cup game).Every other game we have struggled to play anywhere near the level we should.Sexton is not the only Irish player who has been poor at international level over the last few years,before the World Cup I think only Healy and David Wallace could really say they hadn't underperformed regularly for Irealnd,imo every other player has been far below the standards they should set.

Any other manager and he probably would be. Declan Kidney has known ROG for a long time.

asoreleftshoulder hits the nail...

Bathite wrote:
Either he isn't as good as you think, or your coach doesn't think he is as good as you do. Either way, proves my point

There's a third option.... that our coach doesn't have a clue what he's doing.