Aviva Premiership Attendances

As we have a huge thread about regional attendances I thought I would look at the Premiership attendances. With the World Cup happening, and the economic woes being felt by many I was sure that attendances would be down, so let us see:


Total Attendances Rounds 1-10

2011 - 624,129
2010 - 640,383

A fall of 2.5% year on year, not as bad I was expecting. It should be noted that the attendance at the London Double Header fell by 20k. Stripping this match out and attendances at clubs grounds is up slightly (Worcester have larger attendances than Leeds had).


Club Averages
London header has been stripped out.
Worcester attendances are compared to 2009/10 their last season in the premiership.
First number is the average attendance, second the percentage of teh ground capacity

Leicester Tigers ......2011 - 19,543, 81%...... 2010 - 18,478, 77%
Northampton Saints 2011 - 12,990, 96%...... 2010 - 13,419, 99%
Gloucester ..............2011 - 12,918, 78%...... 2010 - 11,743, 71%
Harlequins ..............2011 - 11,447, 77%...... 2010 - 11,564, 78%
Bath .......................2011 - 11.384, 93%...... 2010 - 11,716, 95%
Worcester Warriors ..2011 - 9,217, 76%....... 2010 - 9,987, 83%
London Irish ............2011 - 7,646, 32%....... 2010 - 8,584, 35%
Sale Sharks .............2011 - 7,287, 67%....... 2010 - 7,204, 66%
Exeter Chiefs ...........2011 - 7,187, 67%....... 2010 - 8,381, 78%
London Wasps .........2011 - 6,401, 61%....... 2010 - 8,268, 79%
Saracens ............... 2011 - 6,018, 33%........ 2010 - 6,944, 38%
Newcastle Falcons .. 2011 - 4,528, 44%....... 2010 - 5,001, 49%


Now it is too early to make any real conclusions but:
Tigers will be pleased that attendances are up despite the dreadfull start to the season.
Despite being down slightly, you can see why Saints and Bath want to increase capacity.
The "Madj" is far too big for London Irish and must dull the match day atmosphere.
Chiefs will hope to attract more punters in teh second half of the season.
Saracens cannot attract people to Watford despite being league champions. The big games at Wembley work - but not creating a long term demand. Move to own stadium cannot come quick enough.
Wasps attendances in freefall - no wonder Steve Haynes needs a buyer.
Falcons -- Poor, poor Falcons.

Is there any particular reason why Wasps' attendance figures are falling?

Am also quite surprised at how good Worcester's figures are, for some reason I expected them to be much lower, dunno why. That's a very top half to your table though.

Not suprise there has been an initial fall as with the RWC a lot of the none regulars were following the national cause. Tigers average has been helped by a sell out for the game against Saints.

Wasps will not work in Wycombe, the people of Wycombe are not behind the team and Watford is enough of a dump to detract from Sarries following. These teams need new stadiums sooner rather than later.

Saints should be getting their extension soon I think (wasn't planning permission agreed?) and Bath are left in a real sticking place at the minute as to move out of the town may not be looked upon well by the fans, at the same time it might be the only choice if the council refuse to help.

Worcester are running a bit lower than their last season in the Premiership, but yes pretty good figures.
Cecil Duckworth built a new ground of a good size - not too big but with a decent capacity. It took them a few years to build a squad capable of getting them up the first time - time in which they really engaged with the local community. While not the biggest city Worcester has about 100,000 inhabitants and no Soccer club. Finally they managed to average gates of about 6,500 last season in the Championship.

Overall they seem to be a model other clubs should look at in terms of off field activities.

You won't be popular for stripping out the double-headers, LT.

Mind you I'd have been tempted to exclude the freebie giveaways as well if I had had them.

Alternatively the attendance figures always include ST holders whether they pitch up or not.

It's all misleading.

Note that all the clubs that fill over 75% of their stadiums on average, are all clubs who own their own grounds and have been there a while.

rugbydreamer wrote:Is there any particular reason why Wasps' attendance figures are falling?

They play in the ar$e end of nowhere and the ground is a dump.

Like Saracens they need to move nearer to their roots to get any long term viability

Saracens' roots are in NE London/Essex.

Sounds like Bath are facing the same dilemma the Scarlets did in their move away from Stradey, tis a very tough choice.

LT - Worcester certainly seem to be doing something right, attendances over 9K are v v good to have.

Saracens badly need to acquire Barnet Copthall. That's the plan. At least Saracens are working towards becoming more sustainable.

London Wasps and London Irish are in my opinion currently in the biggest trouble. London Wasps are strapped for cash and have no plans in the pipeline. London Irish are stuck where they are for the time being.

Portnoy I wouldn't call it Essex. Saracens catchment area is North London,Hertfordshire and Essex. That's where most of the support comes from.

Saracens was formed in Southgate.

beshocked wrote:Saracens badly need to acquire Barnet Copthall. That's the plan. At least Saracens are working towards becoming more sustainable.

London Wasps and London Irish are in my opinion currently in the biggest trouble. London Wasps are strapped for cash and have no plans in the pipeline. London Irish are stuck where they are for the time being.

Portnoy I wouldn't call it Essex. Saracens catchment area is North London,Hertfordshire and Essex. That's where most of the support comes from.

Saracens was formed in Southgate.

Apart from SA.

All teams with sugar daddies are in near-mid-long term trouble.

Ask Newcastle (John Hall) and Glaws (Tom Walkinshaw (estate)), Rugby, Bedford et al..

Portnoy Saracens is an English club. Saracens are looking for sustainability. A brand new stadium in North London would likely be filled every game. Nigel Wray cares too much about the club to see it fail.

rugbydreamer wrote:Is there any particular reason why Wasps' attendance figures are falling?

There are some real problems going on with Wasps.

Players & staff & coaches are trying to quit & leave.
No money.
No ground, sharing with Wycombe Wanderers because of owner.
Owner wants to sell them... where will they go after Wycombe?
Traditional fan base was always in London not Wycombe.
Disastrous "overseas merchandising exercises" holding league games etc. abroad. That peed off a lot of their fans and lost the club money.
Poor performances over last 2 years have seen them free fall down the league.
They are widely tipped for relegation next season unless the rot stops.

It is a terrible time for a once powerful & proud club.

Overall its not too bad really. Youd expect a bit of a drop early in the seaosn form the world cup effect.
Also the end of seaonsgames are often the big ones for the clubs when theres really something riding on them coming into the playoffs. ( I asume the previous season figures dont inlcude any actual playoff games?)

Your figures do show what a big impact the double header has though

The bubble does seem to have burst a bit for exeter, mno longr can they rely on the novelty festival factor even rideing high in the table.
The real worry has to be wasps whos decline looks pretty permanant now. Unless theres radical chancges to the wonership and a move I cant see the investment coming in required to turn them into a serious force again with their supporters deserting them.
Falcons have been dieing a death by a thousand cuts. To be honest theyve done well to stay in the top flight this long, but sooner or latr they are going to get swallowed up into teh pit quite possibly never to be seen again. Still at least they can become and official feeder club for Tigers then

Saints blatatntly need to spend some money of the ground. Invest in the future chaps. Bath the same but they face a much bigger challenge than finding some cash to do that.

MT - The coaches want to leave? I thought Dai Young and Paul Turner only signed up this season, so no reason to leave already?

Seems like the move to Wycombe really has been a killer blow for them. I'll admit I don't follow too much of English Club Rugby, but Wasps were always up there with the Tigers as one of the ones to beat. Tis a bit weird not to think of them like that anymore. Hope they sort the troubles on and off the pitch out asap, as they are a great club, with a great tradition.

It comes as no surprise to me that attendances are down at London Irish this season. There are number of factors, but one which I think is a big one is a lack of engagement with the community.

As an example. I live in Sandhurst, which is 12 miles from the Madejski Stadium. I am on the PTA at my daughters school, and the PTA last year approached Reading FC about a ticketing offer to the kids and parents of the school. Reading offered a deal which saw for a one off match tickets offered to our children and parents at a reduced rate. (As an example as I can't remember the exact figures standard ticket price £20, price to parent £12, £10 of which went back to Reading FC and £2 to the PTA). We made a three figure profit, which it doesn't take a genius to work out that at £2 a ticket to us means that we had over 50 takers (it was actually a lot more than that).

Reading obviously considered it a success as well, as we have already doen the same this season and have another match after Christmas where we have the same ticketing offer. There is no immediate financial plus to Reading for doing this, but they can obviously see the bigger picture, of bums on seats for one game may attract those people to come back again, at full price in the future (particularly if the kids enjoy it and are pestering parents to go again).

This year, I approached London Irish with a view to doing the same. I phoned up the club offices and spoke to a young lady who gave me the e mail details of the person I needed to contact about it. I duly sent him an e mail with the proposal, and some 7 weeks later, he has still not even had the courtesy to respond, even to say that they could not do it.

Those who know me on here will know that I am a passionate London Irish supporter, and to say that I was disappointed in the lack of a response is an understatement.

Financially the club is in a difficult situation, with the planning application for Sunbury having been refused, and I would like to see more from the club in terms of attracting new fans. We have to be proactive in this area, otherwise the club will sink. Obviously success or lack thereof is an issue. In 2007/08 we made the Heineken Cup semis and the following year, 2008/09 attendances were up. That year we made the then GP final, and in 2009/10 attendances were also up. That was a poor season, and allied with an increase in ticket prices attendances dropped last year, and have again this season off the back of a disappointing campaign last time out.

The Madejski is a great stadium, and when full (Munster and Exeter Chiefs last year) the atmosphere is cracking, but against Wasps the week before last it was dismal, and does nothing to attract more fans to the club. With 6-8,000 in a 24,000 capacity stadium it is always going to be a struggle. I cannot help thinking that a move to somewhere like Brentfords Griffin Park, with a 12,763 capacity would be a good move. It is in West London so close to our club base in Sunbury, and also only a short journey up the M4 for the fans from the Reading area.

Whilst not as good a stadium, it would potentially provide a better atmosphere, which has knock on effects in term of raising the team performance, which may attract more fans, and also attracting more fans in itself due to a perception of a better atmosphere at games.

I apologise if that is a lot of waffle and of no real interest to people, but falling attendances at my club has been a concern for me for a while, and as they say, 'it's good to talk'.

beshocked wrote:Portnoy Saracens is an English club. Saracens are looking for sustainability. A brand new stadium in North London would likely be filled every game. Nigel Wray cares too much about the club to see it fail.

Barnet or Enfield should be big enough with Cape Town as a back-up.

I heard the real deal on R5 recently as to the club's aspirations from LSA's spokesperson.

Stalking horses...

The coaches want to leave?

Their defence coach who was standing in as their head coach a Mr Edwards decided he wanted to end his association for the club citing the clubs poor financial state when he left. Simon Shaw has asked for his contract to be terminated as well.

but Wasps were always up there with the Tigers as one of the ones to beat

Problem for Wasps was that they never used their success to build a sustainable club. Tigers invested time and money into upgrading Oval Park and Welford Rd. Wasps spent their cash bringing in wise but not cheap experienced internationals. It saw themwin trophies and not lack leadership but once the lack of sustainability caught up with them they didn't have the finances to secure the future of their vibrant young talent. The old guard slowly retired and were replaced by players not up to the same standard. This has continued though the club still show an eye for a good acquisition as the signings of Poff and Wentzel have shown this season whilst the academy is churning out great talent like Webber, Wade and Simpson. It's still building a castle on the sand until they can find a sustainable base to work from though.

Ozzy3213 wrote:It comes as no surprise to me that attendances are down at London Irish this season. There are number of factors, but one which I think is a big one is a lack of engagement with the community.

As an example. I live in Sandhurst, which is 12 miles from the Madejski Stadium. I am on the PTA at my daughters school, and the PTA last year approached Reading FC about a ticketing offer to the kids and parents of the school. Reading offered a deal which saw for a one off match tickets offered to our children and parents at a reduced rate. (As an example as I can't remember the exact figures standard ticket price £20, price to parent £12, £10 of which went back to Reading FC and £2 to the PTA). We made a three figure profit, which it doesn't take a genius to work out that at £2 a ticket to us means that we had over 50 takers (it was actually a lot more than that).

Reading obviously considered it a success as well, as we have already doen the same this season and have another match after Christmas where we have the same ticketing offer. There is no immediate financial plus to Reading for doing this, but they can obviously see the bigger picture, of bums on seats for one game may attract those people to come back again, at full price in the future (particularly if the kids enjoy it and are pestering parents to go again).

This year, I approached London Irish with a view to doing the same. I phoned up the club offices and spoke to a young lady who gave me the e mail details of the person I needed to contact about it. I duly sent him an e mail with the proposal, and some 7 weeks later, he has still not even had the courtesy to respond, even to say that they could not do it.

Those who know me on here will know that I am a passionate London Irish supporter, and to say that I was disappointed in the lack of a response is an understatement.

Financially the club is in a difficult situation, with the planning application for Sunbury having been refused, and I would like to see more from the club in terms of attracting new fans. We have to be proactive in this area, otherwise the club will sink. Obviously success or lack thereof is an issue. In 2007/08 we made the Heineken Cup semis and the following year, 2008/09 attendances were up. That year we made the then GP final, and in 2009/10 attendances were also up. That was a poor season, and allied with an increase in ticket prices attendances dropped last year, and have again this season off the back of a disappointing campaign last time out.

The Madejski is a great stadium, and when full (Munster and Exeter Chiefs last year) the atmosphere is cracking, but against Wasps the week before last it was dismal, and does nothing to attract more fans to the club. With 6-8,000 in a 24,000 capacity stadium it is always going to be a struggle. I cannot help thinking that a move to somewhere like Brentfords Griffin Park, with a 12,763 capacity would be a good move. It is in West London so close to our club base in Sunbury, and also only a short journey up the M4 for the fans from the Reading area.

Whilst not as good a stadium, it would potentially provide a better atmosphere, which has knock on effects in term of raising the team performance, which may attract more fans, and also attracting more fans in itself due to a perception of a better atmosphere at games.

I apologise if that is a lot of waffle and of no real interest to people, but falling attendances at my club has been a concern for me for a while, and as they say, 'it's good to talk'.

Ozzy, as someone who spent a large portion of my growing up near to Reading (my mum still lives near there in fact) I did often think that there wasnt enough effort made by Irish to connect with the local area. Rugby is pretty popular in Berkshire and you would have thought
that they should make more effort to visit the local schools/ clubs to try and establish themselves as the default team for the local children to support.

As it is, and I may be wrong, but I think Irish suffer a bit from being caught between 2 camps; the Sunbury/ Irish expat scene and the Berkshire one. I don't really know how that could be fixed though, without either moving back to London or instead moving the training etc out to Reading. This would make sense in many ways but it would be a real change for the club, cutting it off from its roots.

Anyway, Im rambling a bit too!

Portnoy I think I know a tiny bit more about Saracens than you do. What is LSA? What are you on about? You talk gobbledegook. Please speak plainly.

There were almost as many spectators at the Falcons v Toulon game in atrocious weather last night as there were to watch Saffacens eek out a dire win against LI at the weekend.

And these are the league champions? Embarassing.

Time for Trumpton I am touched and flattered by your concern for Saracens. You do afterall have an rather unhealthy obsession with myself and Saracens. Why? Well only you can answer that.

You do not need to worry though. Saracens are hopefully very close to building a new stadium in Barnet. Once that is secure Saracens will have a sustainable future to look forward to.

Perhaps you can offer some insights on other clubs too.

Even more embaressing is that we keep losing to them

Barnet? PMSL. Hey, I tell you what, make sure its only constructed to a 5000 capacity and then it'll look viable.

Trumpton - what would you rather Saracens to then to improve their attendance figures then?

seem to be coming across a bit overly negative to me

Sorry, I couldn't help it

Lets face it Vicarage Road is a dump, and Watford not much better. Parking is dreadfull - especially if you no longer have a pass for teh Staff Car park in the General, and public transport is not great - unless you are travelling from Central London.

My main worry about Barnet is accessibilityand parking.

Time for Trumpton I will explain it you as you don't quite understand the situation properly.

Saracens have quite a large catchment area consisting of North London,Hertfordshire and Essex. There are a lot of potential Saracens supporters in these areas.

There are various reasons why they don't turn up.

A lot of potential Saracens supporters aren't too fond of turning up to Watford (Vicarage Road). It is a football stadium. Not a particularly nice one either.

The Saracens management have almost virtually stopped all marketing efforts on trying to get people to VR. As you might have noticed more emphasis has been on alternative locations, obviously first and foremost Wembley but also the failed trip to Capetown.Virtually all of the focus is on acquiring Barnet Copthall which obviously has detrimentally affected attendances.

The Saracens management emphasis has not exactly been on the average supporter in the last two seasons since the South African investors have come in. The emphasis has been on player welfare and of course results on the pitch.

You would expect that there will be more emphasis on gaining support and on the supporters if Saracens gain Barnet Copthall.

Also if Saracens can get 20,000-25,000 for Aviva Premiership finals you would expect them to be able to fill a proper 10,000 seater stadium.

Don't underestimate the effect having a brand new stadium in North London will have. The current fans won't have much added to their current journeys to the games. Saracens will be back in London which is a huge boost from a branding point of view. Casual Saracen fans could well flock in.

Also in terms of brand awareness Saracens are always in the public eye for whatever reason.

Well, a premiership final is slightly different, lots and lots and lots of 'fans' come out of the woodwork for those. They spend the whole match asking their seated neighbours to explain the rules.... Nonetheless, moving back to London is a model that perhaps the Not Nots could adopt.

I have to say Saracens are doing a better job odf rebuilduing the club than the Bath owners so far, especially given what the two had to start with.

Beshocked you have to admit though when they first came in they did pee of a lot of long term supporters ( the seaosn ticket burners) and treat the players with ruthlessly.
I guess thats all forgiven now they are a top side though, and youre right to look to the future. Saracens are a success story so far. They appear to be building a sustainable business, thats good for Premiership rugby. Exeter too have done a really good job of gradualy growing their club into one thats hould be able to afford to exist.
Im much more concerned about the way things are going at Bath where money is being poured into a big hole. Obviously Wasps is a total car crash. Newcastle and Sale just dont have enough pull in the North, too much soccer and League.

I think what comes out of the attendances figures is that the better attended clubs own/virtually own their stadium. People can achieve short term success on the field getting in players/managers and bring through a crop of players but long term success appears to come from owning your ground so that once you get the uplift from the short term success, you don't use up that money paying rent and that extra cash gets back into various parts of the club. Also renting a ground makes if difficult to turn that into your home ground because in the back of everyones mind is the idea that you could be moved along after 5-10 years.
And I don't think you can take the big plunge and look to finance your own 20-30k seater stadium straight off the bat after renting somewhere for so long. Better to build stands for 10-12k people with the design set up for easy expansion down the line.
If you can get 20k people for a big game but only 6k people for the small games, then promotions is a great way to go. But if you set up your capacity to keep your costs down, then a 10-12k stadium is close to capacity most games (people will buy the season ticket to guarantee their seat for the big games, and then won't let the seat go to waste so they will show up to more game). If you have 11k people in a snug ground the atmosphere will quickly turn it into a must see event.

Time for Trumpton at least a lot of the "casual" fans as you call them had Saracens shirts on! I prefer them to the prawn sandwich brigade/old farts who come to Saracens game but don't show their allegiance.


London Irish cannot do that unfortunately because I think they are stuck at Reading for

Seabiscuit wheeler I am not denying that. I absolutely agree. I was also very angry with the new Saracens management and South African investors at the beginning. I thought the way they handled things was appalling. They have got better but still have a long way to go.

I have forgiven them because they have forged a successful side - also contrary to popular belief our English players are at the heart of proceedings. Also all the effort to get Barnet Copthall is very much appreciated.

One person who I have infinite respect for is Nigel Wray. He has poured his heart and soul into Saracens, oh and money too!

I am pretty sure that Bath are trying to expand the Rec, move or something like that. The problem with Bath is that they are throwing money at the squad but not building a successful team ethos.


Wasps badly need a sugardaddy who is willing to be patient. We have talked about potential spots in London they should look at as a new home (on other threads) but without a sugardaddy they are stuck.

As you say it's tough for Newcastle and Sale. Newcastle have suffered from the inability to hold onto their excellent academy prospects. They simply can't match other clubs in regards to salaries.

the bandwagon society spot on! It's what Saracens are trying to do. So much red tape though! Even the mayor's office are getting involved.

would there be any mileage in Saracens and Wasps sharing a new stadium? Both being North London (ish) clubs historically. I know fans are generally against such things but from a hard headed financial perspective it makes sense, particularly in Wasps case but could also benifit Sarries attempts to achieve sustainability.

Islington I would be against it. From a pure marketing perspective Saracens need a stadium they can call their own. Sharing with Wasps would damage Saracen's aspirations to build a true home identity.

Also practically it wouldn't work. Saracens have already gone too far down the line in regards to Barnet Copthall. So much effort has been made, for Wasps to just waltz in to the agreement wouldn't be right.

From Wasps perspective they need to find their own home.

Ideally you want all four "London" clubs in London with their own stadiums. Quins has this. Saracens are trying their best to. Wasps and LI need to follow suit.

Oh and another point I wouldn't want Wasps competing on your patch because they could potentially steal our supporters, our catchment area,players from schools Saracens have affiliations with etc.

Every club needs to be a certain distance from each other.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-sport/rugby/article-24019271-sarries-will-spend-pound-20m-on-their-new-dream-stadium.do

The latest copthall stadium news above.

Along with the shuttle coaches from stations - they should do some sort of park and ride scheme.

I wonder if the planning will go the same way as Wasps in wycombe, wher the council go yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, NO!