Time to start Cheating

So now that it's clear that the referees don't penalise sealing off or off the feet at ruck time - I feel it is clear that the Welsh regions in particular need to start cheating more.

It is clear to me that playing by the rules DOES NOT win you games. The English aren't bad at cheating (Saints and Tigers are very good). But the Irish teams are absolutely brilliant at cheating.

Masters at it. This is how Munster beat the Scarlets on Sarturday. They cheated better. The referee failed to penalsie them for flopping over the ruck, sealing off, going off their feet, in at the side etc etc etc. They capitalised on this - and won.

Rugby is now a game of cheating, so the Welsh regions need to buck up their ideas and stop moaning start cheating. That's what the game has become.

Cheat or lose.

I think more to the point they need to be able to play to the referee. What the Irish and English teams do better than the3 Welsh teams is adapt to the interpretations. They try something and if they get penalised for it they stop doing it and try something else. Welsh teams need to adapt better.

Rugby has never been any different fella, teams have always sought to get an advantage, particularly at the breakdown and in the scrum.

Get over it.

Scarlets fan per chance?

mckay1402 wrote:I think more to the point they need to be able to play to the referee. What the Irish and English teams do better than the3 Welsh teams is adapt to the interpretations. They try something and if they get penalised for it they stop doing it and try something else. Welsh teams need to adapt better.

Absolutely.

I'm fed up of losing games because the other team is more "streetwise". Why aren't Welsh regions learning from it? It was the same 5 years ago............why has there been no change in the level of forward "nous"?

just cos the welsh tactics of having the tackler rolling away (directly into the feet of the scrumhalf/support players) or the 'supporting' tackler taking out the first opponent to the breakdown off the ball didn't work during the games at the weekend.

Chunky Norwich wrote:So now that it's clear that the referees don't penalise sealing off or off the feet at ruck time - I feel it is clear that the Welsh regions in particular need to start cheating more.

It is clear to me that playing by the rules DOES NOT win you games. The English aren't bad at cheating (Saints and Tigers are very good). But the Irish teams are absolutely brilliant at cheating.

Masters at it. This is how Munster beat the Scarlets on Sarturday. They cheated better. The referee failed to penalsie them for flopping over the ruck, sealing off, going off their feet, in at the side etc etc etc. They capitalised on this - and won.

Rugby is now a game of cheating, so the Welsh regions need to buck up their ideas and stop moaning start cheating. That's what the game has become.

Cheat or lose.

Have to say this give me a good laugh.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
It is clear to me that playing by the rules DOES NOT win you games. The English aren't bad at cheating (Saints and Tigers are very good). But the Irish teams are absolutely brilliant at cheating.

Tigers were really good at cheating on the weekend

Of course, the only reason any of the welsh teams may have lost is because all other teams are cheaters.

Pathetic.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Of course, the only reason any of the welsh teams may have lost is because all other teams are cheaters.

Pathetic.

Well I wouldn't go that far. They are just better at it. I say fair play to Munster - they are the masters at it. The thread is about the Welsh regions inadequacies.

I feel Munster would have won no matter who the referee was. They deserved to win.

But I expect you to gloss over that last senetence as you seem to have habit of reading only what you want to.

Again Welsh team loses and its the ref to blame.

This time for not picking up on cheating.

When was a Welsh region ever beat fairly, and the ref wasn't to blame.

like I said on another thread ""It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a Welsh man after losing a game of rugby, must blame the referee."

Not all other teams. You really going to defend Munster though ?

I dont blame the ref for Dragons losing to Exter - we were completely out muscled.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Of course, the only reason any of the welsh teams may have lost is because all other teams are cheaters.

Pathetic.

Well I wouldn't go that far. They are just better at it. I say fair play to Munster - they are the masters at it. The thread is about the Welsh regions inadequacies.

I feel Munster would have won no matter who the referee was. They deserved to win.

But I expect you to gloss over that last senetence as you seem to have habit of reading only what you want to.

I don't think I've ever seen you on this forum, so I'm surprised you are so well attuned to my "habits".

I read everything fine thank you. You rant about cheating and the ref etc etc and then say "oh but I'm not blaming the ref" or "oh but they would have won anyway". If that is the case, then what are you complaining about?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Of course, the only reason any of the welsh teams may have lost is because all other teams are cheaters.

Pathetic.

Well I wouldn't go that far. They are just better at it. I say fair play to Munster - they are the masters at it. The thread is about the Welsh regions inadequacies.

I feel Munster would have won no matter who the referee was. They deserved to win.

But I expect you to gloss over that last senetence as you seem to have habit of reading only what you want to.

I don't think I've ever seen you on this forum, so I'm surprised you are so well attuned to my "habits".

I read everything fine thank you. You rant about cheating and the ref etc etc and then say "oh but I'm not blaming the ref" or "oh but they would have won anyway". If that is the case, then what are you complaining about?

Posts 1 and 4 clearly both state that welsh regions aren't learning and adapting to the game.

You really are only reading what you want to.

Rory chillax lad don't get sucked in People are entitled to their opinion about the ref.

As long as you are confident in your own version of reality thats all that matters

Munkian Exeter are very good at that. A very physical side with a big pack and hard running centres.

Chunky Norwich you called your title time to start cheating. You should know by now that a lot of rugby is about interpretation of the rules. It is a skill in itself to play to the ref. If you obey the ref's interpretation you don't get on his bad side and you consequently have a much easier time.

The best sides are masters of not getting pinged. E.g. look at the All blacks and Munster. They are very savvy and very efficient.

My team Saracens have now got that efficiency and understanding of the refs too. It makes life so much easier. Communication is so important

Good discipline is so important too.

If Munster were doing that then play them at their own game. Munster and other sides do play the rules. If they didn't they would be pinged.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Masters at it. This is how Munster beat the Scarlets on Sarturday. They cheated better. The referee failed to penalsie them for flopping over the ruck, sealing off, going off their feet, in at the side etc etc etc. They capitalised on this - and won.

I'm loving that you post this but then claim not to be blaming the ref. Bravo

You came on to whinge about your perception of unfairness that other teams are better at cheating than yours and the referees do nothing about it. When basically told to man up and stop whinging you have changed tack to make it look as if you are criticising your own team for not being streetwise enough.

roddersm wrote:Rory chillax lad don't get sucked in People are entitled to their opinion about the ref.

As long as you are confident in your own version of reality thats all that matters

Trust me rodders, I am having a right laugh in a few threads where some of the welsh posters are blaming the ref. In the scarlets thread, it is now the refs fault for bad attendance with the welsh regions. Seriously, take a look

Munster do remind me of a football team constantly chatting at the ref - the other provinces don't do it half as much.

You have POC looming over them then ROG yapping at his heels

I may have been grooomed to think this by my Leinster supporting girlfriend though....

I think most Welsh teams are fine at playing the ref. And they are no worse at the "streetwise" stuff than most other teams. The thing is though, Munster are actually a better rugby team than Scarlets. That's difficult for some to swallow, so in their minds it has to be a biased ref or opposition cheating. The most oft used quote is that the opposition were

getting away with murder at the breakdown

This snappy phrase is handy because it simultaneously blames the ref and the opposition cheating.

The honest Welsh just want to play honest rugby. And all their world class players would surely be notching up massive bonus point wins week in week out if it wasn't for biased refs and opposition cheating.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

You came on to whinge about your perception of unfairness that other teams are better at cheating than yours and the referees do nothing about it. When basically told to man up and stop whinging you have changed tack to make it look as if you are criticising your own team for not being streetwise enough.

You must obviously have missed this bit of the opening post:

"the Welsh regions need to buck up their ideas and stop moaning "

Yes - the opening post.

munkian wrote:Munster do remind me of a football team constantly chatting at the ref - the other provinces don't do it half as much.

You have POC looming over them then ROG yapping at his heels

I may have been grooomed to think this by my Leinster supporting girlfriend though....

Thats clever captaincy. BOD does it, McCaw does it, in fact every captain worth their salt will be constantly in the referees ear throughout the game.

As an aside did you see the little exchange between ROG and the ref were O'Connell had signalled for the posts and ROG said something to Poite and Poite joked "you're not in Thomond now".... I think ROG wanted to take a quick tap whilst the Scarlets captain was talking to his team?

But you have been moaning about the ref.. that is the point. According to you, it seems, wales are the only perfect goody two shoes team there is and everyone else is a cheater. So the only way for the welsh regions to compete is to cheat..

You may try and pretend you aren't blaming the ref, but it is quite clear you are annoyed that every team seems to be allowed to "cheat" and wales don't cheat (which is a load of tosh anyway).

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Trust me rodders, I am having a right laugh in a few threads where some of the welsh posters are blaming the ref. In the scarlets thread, it is now the refs fault for bad attendance with the welsh regions. Seriously, take a look

Absolute clown of a poster.

Morgannwg wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Trust me rodders, I am having a right laugh in a few threads where some of the welsh posters are blaming the ref. In the scarlets thread, it is now the refs fault for bad attendance with the welsh regions. Seriously, take a look

Absolute clown of a poster.

Says the guy who wanted Humphreys to replace ROG yesterday?

I don't think you can say anything mate

Come on guys there's no need for that .

Rory_Gallagher wrote:But you have been moaning about the ref.. that is the point. According to you, it seems, wales are the only perfect goody two shoes team there is and everyone else is a cheater. So the only way for the welsh regions to compete is to cheat..

You may try and pretend you aren't blaming the ref, but it is quite clear you are annoyed that every team seems to be allowed to "cheat" and wales don't cheat (which is a load of tosh anyway).

I'm speaking for the welsh regions because I am Welsh and those are the ones I watch the most and have the most affinity with.

I've now said in 4 posts that it is a Welsh regional issue and they are the ones who need to get up to speed with playing the ref. That's my issue. They are not learning - why not?. I've also said a number of times Munster deserved to win and it was not the refs fault.

Why are you having a hard time wth this?

I haven't called anyone a clown rodders or any other names

People realise you can seal off LEGALLY right?

Poite's biggest call was not sin binning Rees which I found quite unusual.

All teams cheat.....except the ones I'm supporting!

Chunky Norwich wrote:So now that it's clear that the referees don't penalise sealing off or off the feet at ruck time - I feel it is clear that the Welsh regions in particular need to start cheating more.

It is clear to me that playing by the rules DOES NOT win you games. The English aren't bad at cheating (Saints and Tigers are very good). But the Irish teams are absolutely brilliant at cheating.

Masters at it. This is how Munster beat the Scarlets on Sarturday. They cheated better. The referee failed to penalsie them for flopping over the ruck, sealing off, going off their feet, in at the side etc etc etc. They capitalised on this - and won.

Rugby is now a game of cheating, so the Welsh regions need to buck up their ideas and stop moaning start cheating. That's what the game has become.

Cheat or lose.

See where you'r going wrong is calling it cheating,
If you'r calling it cheating they by default your also blaming the ref for not picking up on it. If it's cheating it should be penalised by the ref.

What it is and you'r trying to get at is playing the game to be letter of the law and pushing the ref's interpution of it. If the ref allows something you do it (some refs may allow what others don't). However this is teh important bit, ITS NOT CHEATING, as no rules were broken.

if you changed your post to change cheating, to playing to the refs interpution of the rules, people wouldn't be arguing, but by calling it cheating your saying the other team is breaking rules and the ref is missing it. They arn't.

Hate the game, not the player!

I think I understand what it is like to be a Kiwi now. Everybody hates us as we "cheat" but we still win. Also we don't care about what the others think!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Says the guy who wanted Humphreys to replace ROG yesterday?

I don't think you can say anything mate

It was a suggestion, on the subject of finding a back-up for Sexton at the next world cup. He was one of three suggestions did you not see? Did I say I wanted it to happen? Doesn't matter to me, we tend to beat Ireland with O'Gara or Sexton at 10 anyway . What a supportive Ulsterman eh.

Thomond wrote:People realise you can seal off LEGALLY right?

Poite's biggest call was not sin binning Rees which I found quite unusual.

It was an offence/tactic (holding on to the tackled player) Munster did throughout the game up until that point.

Morgannwg wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Says the guy who wanted Humphreys to replace ROG yesterday?

I don't think you can say anything mate

It was a suggestion, on the subject of finding a back-up for Sexton at the next world cup. He was one of three suggestions did you not see? Did I say I wanted it to happen? Doesn't matter to me, we tend to beat Ireland with O'Gara or Sexton at 10 anyway . What a supportive Ulsterman eh.

You are making such a fool of yourself, and you don't even realise it

You will be hard pressed to find an ulsterman who would think Humphreys would be anywhere near good enough to replace ROG. Or one who thinks he is playing well at all or who deserves his place in the ulster squad nevermind ireland.

Kingshu wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:So now that it's clear that the referees don't penalise sealing off or off the feet at ruck time - I feel it is clear that the Welsh regions in particular need to start cheating more.

It is clear to me that playing by the rules DOES NOT win you games. The English aren't bad at cheating (Saints and Tigers are very good). But the Irish teams are absolutely brilliant at cheating.

Masters at it. This is how Munster beat the Scarlets on Sarturday. They cheated better. The referee failed to penalsie them for flopping over the ruck, sealing off, going off their feet, in at the side etc etc etc. They capitalised on this - and won.

Rugby is now a game of cheating, so the Welsh regions need to buck up their ideas and stop moaning start cheating. That's what the game has become.

Cheat or lose.

See where you'r going wrong is calling it cheating,
If you'r calling it cheating they by default your also blaming the ref for not picking up on it. If it's cheating it should be penalised by the ref.

What it is and you'r trying to get at is playing the game to be letter of the law and pushing the ref's interpution of it. If the ref allows something you do it (some refs may allow what others don't). However this is teh important bit, ITS NOT CHEATING, as no rules were broken.

if you changed your post to change cheating, to playing to the refs interpution of the rules, people wouldn't be arguing, but by calling it cheating your saying the other team is breaking rules and the ref is missing it. They arn't.

Hate the game, not the player!

I've underlined the bit you have got incorrect.

Plenty of laws are broken all the time. Just because the 3 officials don't spot them it doesn't mean the laws haven't been broken.

Unless you believe

-in at the side
-not joining rucks correctly
-diving in on the floor

are not breaking the laws?

Sorry did a Welshman justs ay that Tiogers arent good at cheating? I can only assume he meant because they keep getting caught now otherwise he'll have to renounce his citizenship.

Morgan as far as I know this is correct:

"the legal seal off"

"If their [your players'] hands are on the tackled players, it is not illegal, BUT they must not be grabbing them or putting weight on that player. Ideally, their hands are free to help them deal with incoming defensive threats"

"Illegal: Hips well above shoulders, neck exposed, cannot go forward. Legal: Hips and shoulders nearly in line, head looking forward, can go forward"

Your thoughts please?

bold words above spell it out

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Says the guy who wanted Humphreys to replace ROG yesterday?

I don't think you can say anything mate

It was a suggestion, on the subject of finding a back-up for Sexton at the next world cup. He was one of three suggestions did you not see? Did I say I wanted it to happen? Doesn't matter to me, we tend to beat Ireland with O'Gara or Sexton at 10 anyway . What a supportive Ulsterman eh.

You are making such a fool of yourself, and you don't even realise it

You will be hard pressed to find an ulsterman who would think Humphreys would be anywhere near good enough to replace ROG. Or one who thinks he is playing well at all or who deserves his place in the ulster squad nevermind ireland.

Rich coming from Rory the clown...

Like I said, on this thread and that thread, there was reasoning behind the suggestion at first. Now I can see he would not be involved with Ireland unless injuries to Ireland fly-halves are suffered. Read the posts again and get a grip for gods sake.

Thomond wrote:Morgan as far as I know this is correct:

"the legal seal off"

"If their [your players'] hands are on the tackled players, it is not illegal, BUT they must not be grabbing them or putting weight on that player. Ideally, their hands are free to help them deal with incoming defensive threats"

"Illegal: Hips well above shoulders, neck exposed, cannot go forward. Legal: Hips and shoulders nearly in line, head looking forward, can go forward"

Your thoughts please?

bold words above spell it out

I'm aware of the seal off. Rees' offence was to hold onto the tackled player once he tackled him to the floor and slow down Munsters ball. Obviously, when tackled then you must release. It would be rather odd for him to sinbin Rees for that when it was a Munster tactic, granted that they did back off from that once they seen a warning was given to Rees.

Don't blame me for defending myself when you decided to call me a "clown of a poster". I pointed out a ridiculous statement you made, and STILL try to call me a non-supportive ulsterman for not agreeing with you. Just because you have embarrassed yourself, through name calling and ridiculous comments, don't turn this onto me and tell me to "get a grip".

I think our argument has ran its course my friend. Why don't we leave it there?

It is clear to me that playing by the rules DOES NOT win you games. The English aren't bad at cheating (Saints and Tigers are very good)

Pfft if anything Tigers have been far too nice at the breakdown this season. They paid for it vs Clermont. Cockerill has been keen to minimise the penalty count and has done so but when the opposition show no inclination to stay on their feet and the ref is as weak as Rollaind then you need to change things. In the success days Johnno, Kay, Backie, Cockerill etc policed the breakdown. Nobody lay on the ball because if they did they were moved forcefully and didn't do it a second time. Could have done with a bit more of that on the weekend.

Ozzy,

When you say,

"Get over it!"

I hope you mean't to add "after releasing the tackled player and getting back to your feet and supporting your own weight on your legs!"

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Don't blame me for defending myself when you decided to call me a "clown of a poster". I pointed out a ridiculous statement you made, and STILL try to call me a non-supportive ulsterman for not agreeing with you. Just because you have embarrassed yourself, through name calling and ridiculous comments, don't turn this onto me and tell me to "get a grip".

I think our argument has ran its course my friend. Why don't we leave it there?

If you are acting like a clown then I will point it out. You are bringing comments on to this thread that are not relevant to this particular subject. You were quite harsh on an Ulster player I felt. I have not embarrassed myself, as you have said that elsewhere aswell I am only going to reply to it here, because quite frankly this is like running around in a circle. Now I need a coffee, mondays are the only day I take in caffiene you know.

supporting your own weight on your legs

When is that ever enforced!

The serious point behind all this thouigh is that refs do seem to have forgotten the pre world cup law interpretations, and that is to the dertriment of the game in some cases.
I can imagine its intensly frustarting for coaches who train their sides to play a certain way only to find out the opposition is getting away with things they expected to be penalised for had they done them.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:So now that it's clear that the referees don't penalise sealing off or off the feet at ruck time - I feel it is clear that the Welsh regions in particular need to start cheating more.

It is clear to me that playing by the rules DOES NOT win you games. The English aren't bad at cheating (Saints and Tigers are very good). But the Irish teams are absolutely brilliant at cheating.

Masters at it. This is how Munster beat the Scarlets on Sarturday. They cheated better. The referee failed to penalsie them for flopping over the ruck, sealing off, going off their feet, in at the side etc etc etc. They capitalised on this - and won.

Rugby is now a game of cheating, so the Welsh regions need to buck up their ideas and stop moaning start cheating. That's what the game has become.

Cheat or lose.

See where you'r going wrong is calling it cheating,
If you'r calling it cheating they by default your also blaming the ref for not picking up on it. If it's cheating it should be penalised by the ref.

What it is and you'r trying to get at is playing the game to be letter of the law and pushing the ref's interpution of it. If the ref allows something you do it (some refs may allow what others don't). However this is teh important bit, ITS NOT CHEATING, as no rules were broken.

if you changed your post to change cheating, to playing to the refs interpution of the rules, people wouldn't be arguing, but by calling it cheating your saying the other team is breaking rules and the ref is missing it. They arn't.

Hate the game, not the player!

I've underlined the bit you have got incorrect.

Plenty of laws are broken all the time. Just because the 3 officials don't spot them it doesn't mean the laws haven't been broken.

Unless you believe

-in at the side
-not joining rucks correctly
-diving in on the floor

are not breaking the laws?

So your saying its only Irish teams and some English teams that ever

-in at the side
-not joining rucks correctly
-diving in on the floor

and Welsh teams never do it, one eyed or what!

If your saying that the Welsh get penalised for it and the others don't, well that sounds like blaming the ref again.

As I see it your either saying every other team is cheating and the Welsh arn't, (happens to be better teams than the Scarlets that you blame for it, not just they are better but they only cheat better?). Which is simply untrue.

Or other teams cheat and get away with it and the Welsh teams get penalised for it. In which case it sounds like the typical Welsh we lost, blame the ref response.

Your either one eyed or blaming the ref, two very typical Welsh rugby triats. Scarlets are the most Welsh of the Welsh regions, so therefore we should expect both.

Kingshu wrote:


So your saying its only Irish teams and some English teams that ever

-in at the side
-not joining rucks correctly
-diving in on the floor

and Welsh teams never do it, one eyed or what!

No. I'm saying they need to learn when the referee is going to let it go / be lenient the breakdown. The Scarlets should have learnt by minute 30 that the referee was not being as stringent as he could have been in these areas. But they didn't. Instead they didn't play cleverly. Like Munster did. The clever bit is cheating. they broke the laws but got away with it.

That's what todays game is all about. My issue is that we knew about this 5 years ago - yet forwards playing for Welsh teams with the exception of a couple just seem unable to cope with better cheats - why?

As I see it your either saying every other team is cheating and the Welsh arn't, (happens to be better teams than the Scarlets that you blame for it, not just they are better but they only cheat better?). Which is simply untrue.

Or other teams cheat and get away with it and the Welsh teams get penalised for it. In which case it sounds like the typical Welsh we lost, blame the ref response.

So I must be saying one of these 2 things above? I can't posisbly be saying anything else?

Right o.

Clue - read my 1st paragraph to see what I am really on about.

Your either one eyed or blaming the ref, two very typical Welsh rugby triats. Scarlets are the most Welsh of the Welsh regions, so therefore we should expect both.

That to me just looks like a trolling post. And a very poor one. Perhaps 1 out of 10. Maybe 2 out of 10.

Strange how there no threads like this one after round 2 of the HEC.